A BASIC PRIMER ON BLACK POWDER BARREL TWIST RATES FOR THE NEW SHOOTER SERIES Join the National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association Today! www.nmlra.org NMLRA
The 1:48 twist in a TC (is a compromised configuration) has shallow rifling so the conical bullet can seal in the bore and still allow a PRB (patched round ball) to hold the rifling at lower powder charges. When higher powder charges are used with patched round ball the rifling and grove depth is needed for the patch to hold the rifling.
@@isaiah3127 It will work just fine. I think you will likely find the tightest group will be given by a larger charge than if it were 1/48 is all. No problems at all. 👍🏻
@@isaiah3127 You can always shoot sabots but they will be most accurate with a fast twist rate. In the 20's and 30's preferable. That said, a round ball is just as deadly within 150 yards....
I’ve seen 1:48 twist barrels shoot a 450 grain paper patched bullet very accurate out to 500 yards ..!! And also shoot PRB’s very accurate out to 200 yards .. Don’t ever underestimate the 1:48 twist friends ..!!
Great stuff! My results with various twist rates are fully in line with how you have broken this down. My T/C "Hawken" in .54 caliber (built in 1978 when I was all of 18 years old) has a 48" twist. It will shoot round balls with any reasonable charge, showing great versatility. It only runs into trouble with really heavy charges, where it shows indications of stripping that very shallow rifling. When shooting the Lyman "Plains Bullet", a 460 grain Keith style semi-wadcutter, it requires a stout charge to get it to stabilize. My Dixie Tennessee Mountain Rifle in .50 caliber (built a year or two later) has a 56" twist, with deeper rifling, and will also shoot any reasonable charge behind a round ball with aplomb. My newest build, a Hawken from the Hawken Shop "kit", features a .54 caliber Rice barrel with, of all things, the original twist the brothers used - 48". I was concerned, with a dedicated round ball gun with that "fast" of a twist, that it wouldn't accept heavy hunting charges. Well, lo and behold, with 100 grains of Swiss 1.5 Fg, it's knocking on the door of 2,000 fps with no indication of stripping the rifling. And it shoots half charge plinking loads with very satisfying accuracy. Big contrast to my T/C with the heavy charges, with the only difference being depth of rifling. Then there is my Pedersoli Kodiak Express in the now discontinued .72 caliber, with its 144" twist. The lands and grooves look almost like straight lines down the bore. Yet it shoots a broad range of charges without complaint. So, yes, my experiences bear out your recommendations. Fun stuff.
Good video Bob . Just had a question not directly related to twist rate and accuracy but more on PRB weight and accuracy . I was just reading a post on ALR forum that the larger calibers would be more accurate at longer distances past 150 yards because of their mass . Would that be because of projectile weight or the lack of higher powder charge to produce velocity ? Thanks , your doing a great job with the channel .
Thanks Dan! Yep, because of the larger projectile’s mass and the larger charge behind it. To get the same accuracy with a small projectile you’d have to ramp up the velocity, twist rate and aerodynamics, which is just what we’ve done the last 100 years. 👍🏻
Hey Bob, Great video and much needed info for us newbes. I do have a question on a different topic. What can you tell me about hang fires and possible solutions, I have a hand made gun using quality parts, I've tried different brands of powders both in barrel and pan as well as size of powder in the pan, every shot is a hang fire. Any help is welcome.
Hey Michael, check the touch hole and if it's not 1/16" or so carefully drill it out. Take your camera and video the lock firing (empty) and watch it in slo-mo to see if you are getting plenty of sparks in your pan. It could be the flint, the frizzen needs rehardening, or the touch hole is too small/clogged. Use pipe cleaner to make sure the touch hole is clean and run a touch hole prick into the hole and into the center of the powder charge before priming to make sure you have a good burn channel.... Let me know how it goes.
I have a 1:66 twist longrifle, and I'd like to add, that there are stubby conical rounds that are designed for function in 1:66, and I have good performance (can tell little difference in accuracy between the stubby conical and patched ball) with them out to ~150-200 yards.
@@charlieliao8021 Hornady PA Conical. I use them quite a lot in my Pennsylvania flintlock. Very on par with patched ball at the ranges I target shoot, but infinitely easier and quicker to load.
A few things. A 48” twist with the proper rifling depth and land groove ratios is fine for any caliber to at least 58. And will shoot all the powder needed so long as the patch material is not so weak as to fail. Some foreign made “ticking” is too thin and/or too weak for patching material. I have switched to heavy linen the last few years after 40+ years shooting blue striped ticking. The spin rate does not significantly degrade compared to velocity and BPCRs with long bullets and twists in the 18-24” range will shoot to a mile in actual matches and in high tech testing some 25 odd years ago apparently stay stable to past 3000 yards. The 45-70-500 service load was tested to terminal distance in the 1870s (3200 +- yards) and it was still striking nose first though at a very steep angle and the gov’t 22” twist was marginal for the 500 gr. So spin reduction in flight is not an issue. Round balls really don’t care as are very easy to stabilize. I have had several pistols with 66 and one with a 70” twist in 50-54 caliber that would shoot into 2” at 25 yards with enough power to kill deer. I also know that a 66 twist 54 Flintlock with a patched round ball will, in no wind conditions shoot 5 shots groups at 200 yards inside 6”. But I was using a little tang sight I built to get the elevation needed. The average American rifle before the advent of the Picket Bullet would surely have a 48” twist. It works great with a round ball. Bill Large made most of his barrels with a 56”. Douglas used 66 for everything from 32 to 69 and the barrels ALL shot great. Today makers seem to be hung up on 70-72 twists for calibers over 45. And they work good though I think they need a little more powder than a 48 would (this will shoot 1/2 ball weight of powder in 50-54 with no problem. A friend has 69 Douglas that he used 167 gr in for a hunting load. No stripping. The 24” twist for a for a 50-56 conical is too fast really but it will work but it will stabilize slugs heavier than people would want to shoot, 700 push grains I suspect though the velocity would be low. Baker, it testing for the original issued British service rifle won the accuracy testing with a 120” twist 62 caliber. And they were testing at 300 yards. Find “The Sporting Rifle and Its Projectiles” by James Forsythe (John Baird reprinted a first edition in the 1970s) and Dewitt Bailey’s “British Flintlock Military Rifles” It has a LOT of details on rifles in a late chapter including some rifling twists. The “science” of the 18th and early 19th c for the round ball was one turn in the barrel. Be it “4 ft” or 28”. Yes there was a wide variation in this but lots of the makers in Europe held to this even after the Baker rifle’s better shooting in 1800 (see Forsythe). And the American rifle well into the 19th c had a barrel over 40” as “standard” so the “4ft barrel” needed a 4 ft twist. Damn I just can’t keep it short. The original Hawken m Mountain Rifle and the Kentuckys all used a “4 ft” twist or very close.
Thanks Charles. A Minie ball will more or less stabilize with a 1/66 (less would be better) if the charge is big enough but a big bullet still needs a fast twist. Because big balls are inherently stable they can run a slower twist but bullets always need a fast twist or shot at a high velocity because they fight stabilization.
I have a .54 caliber Hawken with a 28 inch tube with a 1-48 twist. It will print 425 gr Hornady Great Plains bullets into a 2 inch group at 100 yards with a solid dose of 110 grs of powder.
Conicals will stabilize in a 1-48” with a large enough load to compensate for the lack of spin at distance as you show with your load. That’s a super group. Awesome man! 👍🏻 3f?
@@BlackPowderTV No sir I use 2 F , I have yet to try 3 F in a rifle, I use it in the shotgun and pistol, its in my bucket list to try. My son has a Kentucky long Rifle he uses the Lee Conical 320 gr Real bullet in .50 cal and with 80 grs of 2F and a 1-66 twist at 100 yards it will hold about 3 inches or so.
That’s awesome. I’d be interested to see where they go wobbly. 125-150y I imagine. That a pretty light load he’s shooting for that bullet/twist too. I love it when the real world gets in the way of what’s on paper. That said, I haven’t had any of my slow twists shoot that good with conicals. Good stuff. Thanks for the comments. 👍🏻 Oh, and definitely give 3f a whirl.
@@BlackPowderTV Thank you sir. Well if the boy increases the powder charge his groups get erratic, I know a 1-66 is for patched balls but he opts for the conical for elk and bear giving a tad more penetration. Here you can hunt everything from deer, elk, Antelope to bear and moose at the same time.
My Investarms Lyman Great Plains fainter has a 1 in 60" twist and shoots round balls very accurately. You can get a 1 in 48 twist GOR barrel or gun also. FYI, it looks like the Lyman GPR is now made by Pedersoli.
No, the lyman great plains was made by investarms,and the gemmer by investarms is the same barrel made by the same people.. the pedrosoli plains rifle bought the lyman brand and now their version is 1500 bucks compared to 666 fer the gemmer😊
Excellent and understandable explanation. I have a CVA Mountain rifles I bought back in the 70's that I believe to be a 1:66 but not really sure. Is the a way to definitively demine what an unknown twist twist is?
Thanks. Yes there is. Put your rod in the bore with a fairly tight patch so it bites into the rifling. Mark your rod with a piece of tape. Then pull the rod out until you get a half a revolution. Measure how many inches of rod came out then double that number for the number of inches in a full revolution. Wala!
Probably out to as far you can hit a coke can sized target. 100 yards or so with a 80 or more grain charge. 👍🏻 Farther if your an awesome shot. 200 max effective with 100g + 2F? I try to keep mine inside 100y so I know I get a good hit.
Most of the T/C Hawkins etc have a 1/48 they advertised them to shoot maxi balls. My T/C Cherokee has a 1:48 twist, I am trying to work up a 255gr maxi ball load for it now. I have a copy of T/C recommended maxi ball load charts for it. So far I haven’t got a decent group past 30 yards. At 50 yards it’s about a 6” group. This is from a bench Do to shortage of Goex, I am using pyrodex P. I have tried 50,60 and 70gr charges. The bore is in good condition and I am typically an ok shot. Not really sure where to go from here.
Is it a .50? I’d try shooting balls just to see f you can get a good load and then work up past 70g for the maxis. I haven’t been able to get a decent maxi load in a 1/48 without usung a pretty hefty load.
Gotcha. If you can’t get the Maxie’s to group give the round balls a shot. It’s all I use for hunting and they work great. Sometimes you have to push the Maxie’s pretty hard to get them to group. You also need very near bore size or they’ll blow by. I tried to work less than a 1/28 twist for bullets and never could get satisfaction. If you find a solution let me know.
What's your thoughts on shooting the Hornady great plains 385 grain bullets out of a T/C Triumph and T/C Black diamond ? I currently have pyrodex type RS ffg and pyrodex P fffg any suggestions would be appreciated.
I think you would have some success if you had a fairly fast twist barrel. Sometimes one gun will like them and the next of the same mode won’t. Give it a shot and let me know how it goes. I’d be interested in your results. 👍🏻
With a large enough charge it will but conicals to 150 are begging for a 1:28 twist which will fire the combo also accurately over a wider range of charges and distances. 1:28 is considered THE twist rate for conicals. Give it a try though, it might work well enough for your application. Thanks for the comment!
Great video, but one question- if a fast twist is good.. why not always have a fast twist? Or put another way, what's the advantage of a slower twist? (For PRB)
Great question. The limiting factor with fast twist and round balls is your patch material. Once you get so fast, mid to high 30s, you’ll have to limit your charge or the fast twist will shred your patch. That’s why the middle of the road 1-48” is so good. It gives you the most flexibility in terms of the types of charges you can use and still keep everything together.
Not all conicals are the same: where the mass of the projectile is located is *very* important to stability just as much as twist rate. A lot of Civil War era rifle-muskets have slow twist rates but fired--and modern testing has shown--stabilized Minie-type projectiles with good accuracy. The weight-forward design of the Minie-ball means its center of gravity is forward of its centerline which stabilizes it--think of the front of the bullet "pulling" the rest of it along. This is the same phenomenon that stabilizes modern, hollow-base shotgun slugs out of smoothbores. My .54 has a 1:66 twist rate, and it has no issues stabilizing Minie-balls at 150 yards, which is my typical hunting range in the Northern Colorado Rockies.
You are absolutely right Charlie, and I specifically left out conversation on Minies just to keep from muddying the waters for the new folks but you are dead on accurate. The original Springfields and Enfields that shot Minies had a slower than expected twist rate and shot just beautifully. I figured those who were interested would discover that anomaly in their future research.... Super excellent point and well pointed out.👍🏻
Do you know of anyone who makes a .50 flintlock with a 1:28 twist in a longrifle? Most of what I find are short barrels. I'm just partial to the looks of a long barrel but prefer conicals.
I’m not sure about production barrels but the custom guys all do it for roughly the same price. Rice. Colerain. FCI. Bobby Hoyt can all make you one that can replace an existing barrel.
Can you spin a round ball too fast? Seems like spinning a round ball fast would be like throwing a curve ball in baseball. I want to shoot round balls but im worried about a clean, humane kill on white tail deer so I thought conical bullets might be better. Im new at this if you cant tell.
I suppose it's possible a RB can have too much spin but remember a curve ball in baseball is thrown with a spin that is off its axis, where a gun's rifling keeps the spin on the axis of it's direction. But a round ball definitely doesn't NEED a high rate of spin like a conical. I shoot something like 6 deer a year with a .58, .54, or .50 in a 1:48 twist out to 100y and every time I get a full passthrough. The last one I shot last month went through both shoulder blades and through and through. If your deer are out past 100 the mass of a conical will be better. You can get accuracy with a RB at 150-200 yards but you have to push it hard. In my hunting most of my shots are 60-75y max and so a round ball is perfect. If I were hunting Muleys out west I'd use conicals. Also, in regards to ethical shots, any of my round ball guns can put a group of 5 on target at 100y that can be covered with a coffee cup. It's your choice really.
Watched several times, still confused several times including from several other sources. Why is such a simple question always answered in an ambiguous way. My conclusion, try every possible combination that can be dreamed up by the human mind and use the one that shoots the best.
They are basically the same. Different manufacturers but similar results. Yes, they will theoretically stabilize a heavier bullet with a lesser charge.
I have a.451hawken,with a match barrel,seems to shoot the a 440patched ball ok ,but best is with undersize .45 lee minnie,wont shoot 250g real for shit putting 70 g of swiss no 4 behind it
I have a Lyman Great Planes Hunter in 54 caliber. Most of these so called gun experts have no idea what this rifle twist rate is. If you ask Invest arms, and Lyman they will tell you that its 1 in24. Why doesnt any one offer a sabot for this caliber?
Okay, a Pure lead conical will most definitely stabilize in a 1:48 twist. I've grouped .45 caliber 300gr conicals from a 1:48 twist hawken using 90gr FFg at 225 yards. I've done the same with 54 caliber 415gr conical, 1:48 twist, 110gr FFG at the same distance. Now when you get into longer bearing surface conicals I'd suggest a faster twist suck as 1:32, 1:28, 1:24 ect but not knowing your conical type you can easily jump your rifling. The 1:20's will shoot conicals as long as you have your bore to conical diameter met and matched if not or not knowing how to go with Sabots I guess. I understand your logic but it's over all not logical. Shorter conicals work amazing in mid twist 1:48 ROT. ,45 cal ,200gr, 250gr, 300gr , 50 cal 250gr, 280gr, 320gr, 54 cal, 300gr, 380gr, 425gr-450gr. These conicals will work fine with minimal experience.
You are absolutely right. I was mainly talking about the slower twists not stabilizing longer conicals as well as faster twists well out past 100y. I always try to give the basic concepts for new guys as videos like this could be hours long getting fully in depth. Great comment. Thanks. 👍🏻
@@BlackPowderTV you actually can stabilize long conicals around 500gr - 530gr/50 cal with 75gr BP & 570-600gr/.54 cal with 85gr range and wad over powder in a 1:48 twist out to around 100 yards but I wouldn't use a higher charge. I understand what you mean about the basic introduction to beginners as well. I grew up in Indiana, all the way up until 2016 we only had the option of Muzzleloader or shotgun. I grew up using .45 cal and 54 Hawken rifles and still do despite having rifle legal now.
The 1:48 twist in a TC (is a compromised configuration) has shallow rifling so the conical bullet can seal in the bore and still allow a PRB (patched round ball) to hold the rifling at lower powder charges. When higher powder charges are used with patched round ball the rifling and grove depth is needed for the patch to hold the rifling.
Finally an answer to an often asked question in a way everyone can understand. Great job, Bob!
Thanks Mike! Another from the Sub suggestion list I thought was a great idea for a short vid!
@@BlackPowderTV What about a .54 cal 1:65 twist rate? How will that perform at distances past 50 yards?
@@isaiah3127 It will work just fine. I think you will likely find the tightest group will be given by a larger charge than if it were 1/48 is all. No problems at all. 👍🏻
@@BlackPowderTV would I be able to shoot sabots?
@@isaiah3127 You can always shoot sabots but they will be most accurate with a fast twist rate. In the 20's and 30's preferable. That said, a round ball is just as deadly within 150 yards....
Great video you just answered every question I been trying to get. Thanks so much.
Thanks Tod!
Great info.
Thanks
Michael Herrell
I’ve seen 1:48 twist barrels shoot a 450 grain paper patched bullet very accurate out to 500 yards ..!!
And also shoot PRB’s very accurate out to 200 yards ..
Don’t ever underestimate the 1:48 twist friends ..!!
Another gem! Thanks Bob!
Thanks Mike!
Im learning some things I havent been able to find on other channels, Many thanks from Kansas!! Thumbs up;)
Thanks Richard!
Great video Bob, this is where I point people who ask about twist.
Thanks Ethan!
Man, thanks for the clear explanation. Excellent video
Thanks Ralph!
Great stuff! My results with various twist rates are fully in line with how you have broken this down. My T/C "Hawken" in .54 caliber (built in 1978 when I was all of 18 years old) has a 48" twist. It will shoot round balls with any reasonable charge, showing great versatility. It only runs into trouble with really heavy charges, where it shows indications of stripping that very shallow rifling. When shooting the Lyman "Plains Bullet", a 460 grain Keith style semi-wadcutter, it requires a stout charge to get it to stabilize. My Dixie Tennessee Mountain Rifle in .50 caliber (built a year or two later) has a 56" twist, with deeper rifling, and will also shoot any reasonable charge behind a round ball with aplomb. My newest build, a Hawken from the Hawken Shop "kit", features a .54 caliber Rice barrel with, of all things, the original twist the brothers used - 48". I was concerned, with a dedicated round ball gun with that "fast" of a twist, that it wouldn't accept heavy hunting charges. Well, lo and behold, with 100 grains of Swiss 1.5 Fg, it's knocking on the door of 2,000 fps with no indication of stripping the rifling. And it shoots half charge plinking loads with very satisfying accuracy. Big contrast to my T/C with the heavy charges, with the only difference being depth of rifling. Then there is my Pedersoli Kodiak Express in the now discontinued .72 caliber, with its 144" twist. The lands and grooves look almost like straight lines down the bore. Yet it shoots a broad range of charges without complaint. So, yes, my experiences bear out your recommendations. Fun stuff.
Great video, thanks for making it.
Thanks Alan!
Thanks Bob. Good stuff!
Thanks!
That was a perfect explanation..... Thanks a lot...
Thank you!
Excellent information to know. Thanks Bob...
Thanks Mark! This one is pretty basic but necessary I think!
@@BlackPowderTV Agree totally!
Very good information!
Thanks US!
Very informative, thanks
You're welcome!
Thanks for sharing
Thanks Michael!
Good video Bob . Just had a question not directly related to twist rate and accuracy but more on PRB weight and accuracy . I was just reading a post on ALR forum that the larger calibers would be more accurate at longer distances past 150 yards because of their mass . Would that be because of projectile weight or the lack of higher powder charge to produce velocity ? Thanks , your doing a great job with the channel .
Thanks Dan! Yep, because of the larger projectile’s mass and the larger charge behind it. To get the same accuracy with a small projectile you’d have to ramp up the velocity, twist rate and aerodynamics, which is just what we’ve done the last 100 years. 👍🏻
Hey Bob, Great video and much needed info for us newbes. I do have a question on a different topic. What can you tell me about hang fires and possible solutions, I have a hand made gun using quality parts, I've tried different brands of powders both in barrel and pan as well as size of powder in the pan, every shot is a hang fire. Any help is welcome.
Hey Michael, check the touch hole and if it's not 1/16" or so carefully drill it out. Take your camera and video the lock firing (empty) and watch it in slo-mo to see if you are getting plenty of sparks in your pan. It could be the flint, the frizzen needs rehardening, or the touch hole is too small/clogged. Use pipe cleaner to make sure the touch hole is clean and run a touch hole prick into the hole and into the center of the powder charge before priming to make sure you have a good burn channel.... Let me know how it goes.
I have a 1:66 twist longrifle, and I'd like to add, that there are stubby conical rounds that are designed for function in 1:66, and I have good performance (can tell little difference in accuracy between the stubby conical and patched ball) with them out to ~150-200 yards.
Just curious, what's this stubby conical you are talking about? I have a 1:65, and want to try a conical too.
@@charlieliao8021 Hornady PA Conical. I use them quite a lot in my Pennsylvania flintlock. Very on par with patched ball at the ranges I target shoot, but infinitely easier and quicker to load.
@@kiykiy_maitai Thank you, but I realized that's only available in 50cal, while I have a 54 cal, so have to look for something else.....
A few things. A 48” twist with the proper rifling depth and land groove ratios is fine for any caliber to at least 58. And will shoot all the powder needed so long as the patch material is not so weak as to fail. Some foreign made “ticking” is too thin and/or too weak for patching material. I have switched to heavy linen the last few years after 40+ years shooting blue striped ticking.
The spin rate does not significantly degrade compared to velocity and BPCRs with long bullets and twists in the 18-24” range will shoot to a mile in actual matches and in high tech testing some 25 odd years ago apparently stay stable to past 3000 yards. The 45-70-500 service load was tested to terminal distance in the 1870s (3200 +- yards) and it was still striking nose first though at a very steep angle and the gov’t 22” twist was marginal for the 500 gr. So spin reduction in flight is not an issue. Round balls really don’t care as are very easy to stabilize. I have had several pistols with 66 and one with a 70” twist in 50-54 caliber that would shoot into 2” at 25 yards with enough power to kill deer. I also know that a 66 twist 54 Flintlock with a patched round ball will, in no wind conditions shoot 5 shots groups at 200 yards inside 6”. But I was using a little tang sight I built to get the elevation needed. The average American rifle before the advent of the Picket Bullet would surely have a 48” twist. It works great with a round ball. Bill Large made most of his barrels with a 56”. Douglas used 66 for everything from 32 to 69 and the barrels ALL shot great. Today makers seem to be hung up on 70-72 twists for calibers over 45. And they work good though I think they need a little more powder than a 48 would (this will shoot 1/2 ball weight of powder in 50-54 with no problem. A friend has 69 Douglas that he used 167 gr in for a hunting load. No stripping. The 24” twist for a for a 50-56 conical is too fast really but it will work but it will stabilize slugs heavier than people would want to shoot, 700 push grains I suspect though the velocity would be low. Baker, it testing for the original issued British service rifle won the accuracy testing with a 120” twist 62 caliber. And they were testing at 300 yards. Find “The Sporting Rifle and Its Projectiles” by James Forsythe (John Baird reprinted a first edition in the 1970s) and Dewitt Bailey’s “British Flintlock Military Rifles” It has a LOT of details on rifles in a late chapter including some rifling twists. The “science” of the 18th and early 19th c for the round ball was one turn in the barrel. Be it “4 ft” or 28”. Yes there was a wide variation in this but lots of the makers in Europe held to this even after the Baker rifle’s better shooting in 1800 (see Forsythe). And the American rifle well into the 19th c had a barrel over 40” as “standard” so the “4ft barrel” needed a 4 ft twist. Damn I just can’t keep it short. The original Hawken m Mountain Rifle and the Kentuckys all used a “4 ft” twist or very close.
So what twist rate is good for big bore conical bullet 66? Great video is always.
Thanks Charles. A Minie ball will more or less stabilize with a 1/66 (less would be better) if the charge is big enough but a big bullet still needs a fast twist. Because big balls are inherently stable they can run a slower twist but bullets always need a fast twist or shot at a high velocity because they fight stabilization.
I have a .54 caliber Hawken with a 28 inch tube with a 1-48 twist. It will print 425 gr Hornady Great Plains bullets into a 2 inch group at 100 yards with a solid dose of 110 grs of powder.
Conicals will stabilize in a 1-48” with a large enough load to compensate for the lack of spin at distance as you show with your load. That’s a super group. Awesome man! 👍🏻
3f?
@@BlackPowderTV No sir I use 2 F , I have yet to try 3 F in a rifle, I use it in the shotgun and pistol, its in my bucket list to try. My son has a Kentucky long Rifle he uses the Lee Conical 320 gr Real bullet in .50 cal and with 80 grs of 2F and a 1-66 twist at 100 yards it will hold about 3 inches or so.
That’s awesome. I’d be interested to see where they go wobbly. 125-150y I imagine. That a pretty light load he’s shooting for that bullet/twist too. I love it when the real world gets in the way of what’s on paper. That said, I haven’t had any of my slow twists shoot that good with conicals. Good stuff. Thanks for the comments. 👍🏻
Oh, and definitely give 3f a whirl.
@@BlackPowderTV Thank you sir. Well if the boy increases the powder charge his groups get erratic, I know a 1-66 is for patched balls but he opts for the conical for elk and bear giving a tad more penetration. Here you can hunt everything from deer, elk, Antelope to bear and moose at the same time.
My Investarms Lyman Great Plains fainter has a 1 in 60" twist and shoots round balls very accurately. You can get a 1 in 48 twist GOR barrel or gun also. FYI, it looks like the Lyman GPR is now made by Pedersoli.
👍🏻 I heard that about the GPR. $1000 or so I think I heard. Can't wait to hear some feedback on it....
No, the lyman great plains was made by investarms,and the gemmer by investarms is the same barrel made by the same people.. the pedrosoli plains rifle bought the lyman brand and now their version is 1500 bucks compared to 666 fer the gemmer😊
Excellent and understandable explanation. I have a CVA Mountain rifles I bought back in the 70's that I believe to be a 1:66 but not really sure. Is the a way to definitively demine what an unknown twist twist is?
Thanks. Yes there is. Put your rod in the bore with a fairly tight patch so it bites into the rifling. Mark your rod with a piece of tape. Then pull the rod out until you get a half a revolution. Measure how many inches of rod came out then double that number for the number of inches in a full revolution. Wala!
@@BlackPowderTV Thank you for this answer!!
Great explanation of twist rate Bob. What is your opinion on effective range of 50 cal round ball for white tail size game.
Probably out to as far you can hit a coke can sized target. 100 yards or so with a 80 or more grain charge. 👍🏻 Farther if your an awesome shot. 200 max effective with 100g + 2F? I try to keep mine inside 100y so I know I get a good hit.
@@BlackPowderTV Thanks Bob, keep up the great content.
Where you been?
I have a traditions of lightning bolt 45 it's a 1 and 20 twist so can I shoot the Maxi ball accurately out of that gun
Most of the T/C Hawkins etc have a 1/48 they advertised them to shoot maxi balls.
My T/C Cherokee has a 1:48 twist, I am trying to work up a 255gr maxi ball load for it now.
I have a copy of T/C recommended maxi ball load charts for it.
So far I haven’t got a decent group past 30 yards.
At 50 yards it’s about a 6” group. This is from a bench
Do to shortage of Goex, I am using pyrodex P.
I have tried 50,60 and 70gr charges.
The bore is in good condition and I am typically an ok shot.
Not really sure where to go from here.
Is it a .50? I’d try shooting balls just to see f you can get a good load and then work up past 70g for the maxis. I haven’t been able to get a decent maxi load in a 1/48 without usung a pretty hefty load.
It’s a .45 T/C Cherokee
Gotcha. If you can’t get the Maxie’s to group give the round balls a shot. It’s all I use for hunting and they work great. Sometimes you have to push the Maxie’s pretty hard to get them to group. You also need very near bore size or they’ll blow by. I tried to work less than a 1/28 twist for bullets and never could get satisfaction. If you find a solution let me know.
What's your thoughts on shooting the Hornady great plains 385 grain bullets out of a T/C Triumph and T/C Black diamond ? I currently have pyrodex type RS ffg and pyrodex P fffg any suggestions would be appreciated.
I think you would have some success if you had a fairly fast twist barrel. Sometimes one gun will like them and the next of the same mode won’t. Give it a shot and let me know how it goes. I’d be interested in your results. 👍🏻
So much info, i got confused at the end so, will a 1:48 twist rate on a .50 cal work out to 150 yards for conical bullets?
With a large enough charge it will but conicals to 150 are begging for a 1:28 twist which will fire the combo also accurately over a wider range of charges and distances. 1:28 is considered THE twist rate for conicals. Give it a try though, it might work well enough for your application. Thanks for the comment!
Watch Idaho Lewis that will hold to over 500 yards
Great video, but one question- if a fast twist is good.. why not always have a fast twist? Or put another way, what's the advantage of a slower twist? (For PRB)
Great question. The limiting factor with fast twist and round balls is your patch material. Once you get so fast, mid to high 30s, you’ll have to limit your charge or the fast twist will shred your patch. That’s why the middle of the road 1-48” is so good. It gives you the most flexibility in terms of the types of charges you can use and still keep everything together.
@@BlackPowderTV Patches do not hold up to a fast twist.
@@BlackPowderTV That's what I really needed to know right there! Thanks!
@@geob0324 that's exactly what he said.
I seen some 54 caliber 535gr Keith style conicals afraid to order them I have t/c hawken 1 in 48 at 100yrds don't know how they would do. 🤔
And you'll never know if you don't try them. Worst thing is they won't shoot well.
Not all conicals are the same: where the mass of the projectile is located is *very* important to stability just as much as twist rate. A lot of Civil War era rifle-muskets have slow twist rates but fired--and modern testing has shown--stabilized Minie-type projectiles with good accuracy. The weight-forward design of the Minie-ball means its center of gravity is forward of its centerline which stabilizes it--think of the front of the bullet "pulling" the rest of it along. This is the same phenomenon that stabilizes modern, hollow-base shotgun slugs out of smoothbores.
My .54 has a 1:66 twist rate, and it has no issues stabilizing Minie-balls at 150 yards, which is my typical hunting range in the Northern Colorado Rockies.
You are absolutely right Charlie, and I specifically left out conversation on Minies just to keep from muddying the waters for the new folks but you are dead on accurate. The original Springfields and Enfields that shot Minies had a slower than expected twist rate and shot just beautifully. I figured those who were interested would discover that anomaly in their future research.... Super excellent point and well pointed out.👍🏻
Do you know of anyone who makes a .50 flintlock with a 1:28 twist in a longrifle? Most of what I find are short barrels. I'm just partial to the looks of a long barrel but prefer conicals.
I’m not sure about production barrels but the custom guys all do it for roughly the same price. Rice. Colerain. FCI. Bobby Hoyt can all make you one that can replace an existing barrel.
Thank you
Can you spin a round ball too fast? Seems like spinning a round ball fast would be like throwing a curve ball in baseball. I want to shoot round balls but im worried about a clean, humane kill on white tail deer so I thought conical bullets might be better. Im new at this if you cant tell.
I suppose it's possible a RB can have too much spin but remember a curve ball in baseball is thrown with a spin that is off its axis, where a gun's rifling keeps the spin on the axis of it's direction. But a round ball definitely doesn't NEED a high rate of spin like a conical. I shoot something like 6 deer a year with a .58, .54, or .50 in a 1:48 twist out to 100y and every time I get a full passthrough. The last one I shot last month went through both shoulder blades and through and through. If your deer are out past 100 the mass of a conical will be better. You can get accuracy with a RB at 150-200 yards but you have to push it hard. In my hunting most of my shots are 60-75y max and so a round ball is perfect. If I were hunting Muleys out west I'd use conicals. Also, in regards to ethical shots, any of my round ball guns can put a group of 5 on target at 100y that can be covered with a coffee cup. It's your choice really.
@@BlackPowderTV Great information, thank you for sharing you knowledge and making your videos. I do appreciate it.
This is exactly what I have been looking for. Man your content is phenomenal and very helpful.
I am wanting to do some round ball hunting as well on NC white tail.
Watched several times, still confused several times including from several other sources. Why is such a simple question always answered in an ambiguous way. My conclusion, try every possible combination that can be dreamed up by the human mind and use the one that shoots the best.
So what’s the difference between 1/24 twist and 1/28 twist can you shoot a heavier grain wih 1/24 twist?
They are basically the same. Different manufacturers but similar results. Yes, they will theoretically stabilize a heavier bullet with a lesser charge.
@@BlackPowderTV ok thanks
I have a.451hawken,with a match barrel,seems to shoot the a 440patched ball ok ,but best is with undersize .45 lee minnie,wont shoot 250g real for shit putting 70 g of swiss no 4 behind it
i didn't hear of you could shoot a ball from a 1:28 or just conicals.
BPTV where 5-minutes seems like two!
🤣👍🏻
I have 45 cal flint lock with 1 in 70 twist. Does this fit in with this vdo
I have a Lyman Great Planes Hunter in 54 caliber. Most of these so called gun experts have no idea what this rifle twist rate is. If you ask Invest arms, and Lyman they will tell you that its 1 in24. Why doesnt any one offer a sabot for this caliber?
“Even faster at distance”? WHAT?
Okay, a Pure lead conical will most definitely stabilize in a 1:48 twist. I've grouped .45 caliber 300gr conicals from a 1:48 twist hawken using 90gr FFg at 225 yards. I've done the same with 54 caliber 415gr conical, 1:48 twist, 110gr FFG at the same distance.
Now when you get into longer bearing surface conicals I'd suggest a faster twist suck as 1:32, 1:28, 1:24 ect but not knowing your conical type you can easily jump your rifling. The 1:20's will shoot conicals as long as you have your bore to conical diameter met and matched if not or not knowing how to go with Sabots I guess.
I understand your logic but it's over all not logical. Shorter conicals work amazing in mid twist 1:48 ROT. ,45 cal ,200gr, 250gr, 300gr , 50 cal 250gr, 280gr, 320gr, 54 cal, 300gr, 380gr, 425gr-450gr. These conicals will work fine with minimal experience.
You are absolutely right. I was mainly talking about the slower twists not stabilizing longer conicals as well as faster twists well out past 100y. I always try to give the basic concepts for new guys as videos like this could be hours long getting fully in depth. Great comment. Thanks. 👍🏻
@@BlackPowderTV you actually can stabilize long conicals around 500gr - 530gr/50 cal with 75gr BP & 570-600gr/.54 cal with 85gr range and wad over powder in a 1:48 twist out to around 100 yards but I wouldn't use a higher charge. I understand what you mean about the basic introduction to beginners as well. I grew up in Indiana, all the way up until 2016 we only had the option of Muzzleloader or shotgun. I grew up using .45 cal and 54 Hawken rifles and still do despite having rifle legal now.
I really don't know what a "SKINNY "
BULLET LOOKS LIKE
Dux and bux sux