Tracy's Great Point - Atheist Experience
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- čas přidán 14. 06. 2014
- Hello guys! So sorry I haven't been posting much lately I have been all over the place doing other things visiting family etc. But we are working on getting our schedules together to make more podcasts and videos. I don't recall which episode this clip is from sorry but Click here to go to the Atheist Experience channel - / theatheistexperience
The chair works in mysterious ways.
I was going to upvote, but you have 42 upvotes right now. I can't do that, I'm sorry.
ragazziita
May the chair be with you.
Plus their chair gave it's only begotten Ottoman for all of mankind to be forgiven.
lol
Dude, Tracy is like the female (and polite) version of Hitchens. She owns people but with a subtle touch.
+spiffaz To sum up : Tracy is better than Hitchens.
Hmmm. Apples to oranges in my opinion if you're talking about overall, though definitely similar in some ways. Both have skills that are excellently put to use.
So more simple and empathetic than the overcomplicated smart ass dillahunty.
In the words of the late great Christopher Hitchens: That which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
Great comment 👏🏼
and what would that be?
WE ARE AGAINST THE PROGRAM the only problem for the dead and eternally lost Hitchens is that the evidence that he he willfully declined to see was there all around him - the magnificence and glory of creation. Sometimes the more educated men become the more foolish they become because of their devastating pride - as the greatest teacher said - ' what shall it profit a man to gain the whole world and lose his soul' - He ran towards that burning forest with al, the mocking and disdain he could muster - he was so dead - even when he was alive.
and you know all of the things around us are created because..?
Micah the fox and you know that everything around you and the entire universe just happened by blind chance - oh wise you are
I think she knocked it out of the park with that analogy.
I'll second that!
robzrob i 3rd that
Well I could go on, but it'll get kinda pointless.
michael de g I'll second what the kerbal said
***** Can you explain?
Tracy has always been my favorite.
here here
She is awesome. Jeff and Matt are close seconds though
*+Shadow Chaser*
I like all of them for various reasons but I think *Jeff Dee* is my favorite. He cuts things down to size, won't cop to any bullshit threats and has the best eyebrows in the business. Tracey, as much as I appreciate her, tends to ramble like Matt although she's not as rude as the latter, who tends to get a bit overblown. Just my two cents.
Sue Mead yeah Jeff Dee is my favourite. Some of the others have been infected with 3rd wave feminism and SJW disease which has ravaged the athiest community and forced people like myself to distance themselves from their group.
But either way Jeff is excellent and extremely entertaining
Some great points. I think Jeff is amazing, and he plays D&D so he's all the more awesome. I watch tons of old show clips, I really love watching a lot.
Tracy is the business. Great respect for her logic.
It is a compliment to Tracie's magnificence that after only a few seconds I no longer noticed the party hat. I don't know many others who could pull that off.
Absolutely love her chair analogy. Absolute simplistic brilliance!
The difference I see that makes her point even stronger is that it wouldn't be unreasonable to think that the locked room might contain a chair. We've all seen a chair in a room. So you can reject the claim but not say the claim is false. But when someone says the room contains a supernatural whatever.....now you can reject the claim but at the same time be pretty darn sure it's false.
All hail the supernatural chair. xD
But kidding aside, you are right. This very clearly demonstrates why atheistic views are the better choice. It doesn't completely exclude any faith from actually being true at one point (assuming we can get the door open and verify that, that is) but until that happens, the best path is to not have a position on the matter, and that means not have a position on it on all aspects of life, because the second someone uses the argument that the chair is real without knowing, then it is clear that they are deluded.
Simple, not simplistic (which means overly simple)
I actually think you bring up a flaw in her analogy actually. We`ve all seen a chair in a room so the claim isnt so outlandish but none of us have ever seen a supernatural event which would make the possibility of believing in a god a possibility.
I think if she replaces chair with something fictional it works better.
she has to keep it as a chair. i think the religious who see this need something relatable as their kick-off point. We can see that the myth is even more ridiculous than the item as a simple chair- but they'll understand better from the situation she set up than the object that is disputed.
Excellent point. That was brilliantly well put.
+Dustin Zilbauer Your mustache is brilliantly well put.
Schrodinger's chair?
Definitely. You have to open the room to find out if it's been shot.
yep she def knows the Schrodinger's cat theory,only instead she used a chair lol
Tracy's chair
@Bob Rabbins The Schrodingers cat is not an assessment if there is a cat in the container. Its an assessment of whether the cat is alive or not. You cant verify it if you cant open the container. Its the same analogy at the end of the day.
Atheism is false because Tracie Harris is obviously a goddess. ;)
I am no longer an atheist. I'm a follower of Tracieanity. We need to write all of her wisdom and speakings into a book. Each of us apostles can write a few of our understandings of what she has said and what she meant. But before we go to print though, we need to make sure all our stories are mostly the same. I'll write the forth chapter. Sincerely, John.
I know she is a Godess because she is wearing a red hat. See it's true!
The red hat clinches it.
L
That convinced me. Tracy is god. But she is a hell of lot better than the god in the Christian bible. She is smarter and more morel.
As AronRa says: "If you CAN'T show it, you DON'T 'know' it."
I love the way to draws up analogies. She has a way of speaking to people that comes off as very compassionate and patient. I really like her approach
My favorite AE member. Her expertise is straight forward simplicity and clearness.
Great example. But its even worse than that. We know for a fact chairs exist. So looking at a locked door, we can fairly say its possible there is a chair in that room. We can even talk to people who locked the door to assess if there is a chair in there. With god its a locked door, no proof of what god even is, and no one to talk to, to verify the content of the locked room. God is actually just a man made word of unknown. And its been that troughout history. Before we didnt know what caused thunder and lightning. That unknown had multiple names. Thundergod, Thor, Zeus etc. Wouldnt it be better if we actually started to say the frase: WE DONT KNOW THE UNKNOWN?
+Hypogonadism "Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns - the ones we don't know we don't know. And if one looks throughout the history of our country and other free countries, it is the latter category that tend to be the difficult ones."
United States Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld at a U.S. Department of Defense (DoD) news briefing on February 12, 2002 about the lack of evidence linking the government of Iraq with the supply of weapons of mass destruction to terrorist groups.
🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥
+Hypogonadism
I wish more people would just think like this. They're all afraid to say "I don't know" and leave it at that until such a time comes. People can't be content with the fact that some unknowns exist, and may always be that way.
inboundmoose Indeed. And the fact that, when we admit to ourselves that we dont know, its the best position to learn, and search for an answer to that unknown. If we start with lying to ourself, thinking we know, we wont learn anything.
***** Exactly. Neil deGrasse Tyson put it well: "Saying 'god did it' is the closing of a door, giving up on finding answers."
As usual, words of wisdom from Tracy. But how funny is it that she's wearing the goofy party hat while giving such a thoughtful response.
Great analogy. Just perfect. Her ability to use logic is off the charts.
There is a chair in that room. I have never looked inside, nor can I. Ever. And you cannot either. Nevertheless, there is a chair in that room. Also, the chair created the universe.
Incorrect
Imagine how hard Tracey's kids have to work at pulling something over on her! HAHAHA
She has no children
@Pedroism so you agree that it's impossible for Tracey's kids to pull stuff on her?
I don't think she took it far enough, because it's actually worse than just a "locked room". It's not about the room being locked, it's about there being no lock, no door...hell there isn't even a damn "room" to look in, much less a door with a lock. So not only is the chair unknown, it's "location" is also unknown, or even better....get this...the room is "outside of time and space". As if that makes sense.
I think it would then become too complicated for "some" people to understand.
My right ear is blown away by this audio
I'll take it one step further. Even if you do somehow get into the room, the believer will simply state "Oh, you can't see the chair, you just have to accept it into your heart". Or it's a "mysterious" chair, it's "beyond your simple human understanding", or (my personal favorite) "It's not for us to question the chair, it's greater than all of us combined". This will usually be followed by stories of other people who didn't believe suddenly "discovering" the chair and having their lives somehow....
"fixed".....just sayin'.
kragseven They've almost entirely given up and started talking about the chair in the room that's behind the big bang. They get great traction out of that.
Hey Somebody had cancer and then they eventually got better. You know that the cancer didn't just go into remission, but that it was that invisible chair that healed them.
But wait... I have a 2000 year old text in which HUNDREDS of people claim to have witnessed the chair!
Yup, and since when is in invisible non manifesting chair a chair then? If I can't see or sit on it, it's not a chair.
It looks pretty much identical to a non existent chair.
Tracy is one of my favorites on the show. They all are, but I love how Tracy rationalizes things
What!? But Tracey never told us if the chair was there or not! Well? Was there a chair? Did she just leave it like that!?
I am now a Chairist and I know there was a chair in that room no matter what anyone says! (and behold, a new religion is born)
i do not believe there's a chair on that room because of lack of evidence, im a Achairist.
The chair is both there and not there until you look.
John Jr. no, you say "i dont know". you don't assume its both there and not there.
*****
I was eluding to Shroedinger. I jest...
Pul5ar You came here to say that!? What a weirdo! HAHAHAHAHHAHA!!
Martin looks like he's thinking 'damm I wish I'd put it like that'
Clearly and brilliantly put! Brava, Tracie!
Tracie has lovely hair.
Simple yet brilliant
Tracie is just as good if not better then Matt. To be fair I love em both 😊
Beautifully simple. Tracie rules.
Tracie and Matt have always been my 2 favs from the Atheist Experience shows over the years. Tracie, generally, is not as vocal or demonstrative as Matt, but she always has something valuable and thoughtful to contribute. And oh-so-often, when this intelligent, beautiful woman speaks up, it is an absolute *slam-dunk* to the concepts/comments of theists! She has such an eloquent and elegant way of putting things in perspective, of crystallizing the salient points, and this is an *excellent* example of that talent at work.
Thank you for your thoughts and comments over the years, Tracie. And thank you, *Snarky Atheists,* for posting this clip.
I love Tracy. She makes cogent points patiently, kindly, but firmly. That’s the way to really make people listen and perhaps make callers start thinking about what she said after the call is over. While I thoroughly enjoy watching Matt destroy ignorance like a bulldozer (he would have made one heck of a hellfire and brimstone preacher man had he not changed his mind!) and can understand his impatience, I think Tracy’s approach may be more effective in the long run.
Tracy, your mind is beautiful
How can anyone look so sad with a party hat on. Also great point.
"look sad"
How? Because she's not smiling non stop?
Ok
Rob Culligan The hat looks great though :-)
Because she's hosting a call-in show in which she's inviting Christians who are trying to convince her to believe in magic.
Paul Hsieh h I thought that would be entertaining.
This statement is so good. Undeniable logic at it's best. Thanks so much for this Tracy.
And then of course, we have people killing each other over the colour of the chair that no-one has seen.
My right ear enjoyed this very much
A most excellent point.
Tracie continues to amaze me with her articulation of concepts. When she gave this chair scenario, I don't think, as simple of a scenario as it is, that I could have explained it better. It's an apt description of a core flaw in accepting many religious claims.
This is one of my favorite videos on CZcams. Tracy rules!
When Christians try to convince you it's true it reminds me of the first Shriek movie. At the beginning the lady has Donkey and she takes it to get money for him for being magical and can talk. When she gets to the front of the line and they ask to see him talk, he doesn't and they don't believe her. That old lady is like Christians and Donkey is God. They are told to spread the Gospels, and then God sits there invisible saying nothing and they have to do gymnastics to convince people he is real. They are left holding the bag looking silly. How hard is it to have an Angel appear and go "Yeah, she's right, God is real"?
That's how I look at all the apologists 'arguments' too. They can't show any evidence that their assertions are true at all, so I just pretty much ignore as nonsense their multiple premise point arguments designed to fool people who can't or don't think very critically.
tracy is one of my favorite hosts on the show. she has a greater understanding of logic and reason then some of the other hosts.also she can express her thoughts in a way that most people can understand.
The chair -- even if it existed -- is soaked in blood, rendering it quite unfit for a tidy home.
I love Tracy :)
Damn, she is gorgeous !
Fred Nurke You're kidding right.
PurpleStratocaster Guess some people have low standards.
***** bite me
Jebus why does it matter who other people find attractive? does it make you feel better about yourself talking down to others about their "standards"? how does someone finding someone attractive affect you in any way? for the record, i also think she's quite pretty. don't know what it is, i can see why others would disagree, but no one really chooses who they find attractive. if you can only admit someone is attractive if it's a popular viewpoint, then i'm afraid that's pretty sad and shallow. and if you feel the need to question and talk down to someone because of their "standard" of beauty, then i think you really need to get your priorities in check. seriously, who gives a shit who finds who attractive? how is that an issue?
Tom Milley Music
Its ok, you stick to Mrs Palmer.
My right ear liked her logic and reason.
What a great analogy. Best I’ve heard up to now.
Tracy is my dream woman.
I see 4 theists watched this.
You just have to have faith that the chair is in there.
gigisdad I tried that but when I sat down my arse made contact with the floor - it hurt!
Too good, Tracy!!
I am an atheist, but if I may play devils advocate here.... any Christian listening to the 'chair in the room' example will simply come back w/ a personal/inner relationship. there is nothing physical about the relationship they have w/ god. and because what I feel & what I believe inside myself are unverifiable... then no one can simply say he isn't true. they will take an experience & slap the god label on it. because there is no reason (at least in their minds) to think that it was not god.
although atheists know emotions & adrenaline & many other chemical reactions can cause waves of emotional bliss.... but that doesn't necessarily mean god.
Instead of writing w/. Just write with.
Jeff Connors why is it unverifiable? the people in the Bible claim to have spoke directly to God, he manifested directly to them, and Jesus etc.
they did not have beliefs, technically if they had a camera back then they could have taken a picture or recorded audio, so why doesn't God present himself in the same way now.
you answered your own question... its unverifiable because the CLAIM has not been confirmed.
Jeff Connors I think you missed my point, I was agreeing with you. they say it's unverifiable as it's just a feeling to them, but in the Bible it is said not to be a feeling, as in God actually manifested.
their excuses that God is only inside you doesn't actually match what's in the Bible. the people in the Bible didn't need 'faith'.
0:09 Tracie says, "If you're going to have a belief, then that means you accept the claim as true, and true is what aligns with reality." Wouldn't the flipside of that be that if you disbelieve or assert a lack of belief, then that means you do not accept the claim as true. Then, Tracie goes on to say that nobody knows. If no one knows, on what basis do we believe or even disbelieve?
you can't prove a negative. example..you can't prove that telepathy does not exist, but an individual who claims telepathy exists must prove so.
People say you can't prove a negative, but that's assuming first that what you're attempting to prove is, in fact, a "negative," but of course, we don't know that. So, to say that is simply assumptive.
If you say, 'no-one knows', then we'd have to believe that there are an infinite number of chairs in an infinite number of rooms that we can't get into. Have I put that right? Hmm.
robzrob Who says you have to believe? Neil deGrass Tyson refers to himself as a "empirical agnostic" which says, "We do not know, but perhaps one day we can know." So, it takes a position of neither belief nor disbelief until evidence comes along to concretize a position.
Jimmy Bazan But why bother even to consider it - if you're not going to consider the infinite number of other non-evidenced stories/chairs?
It is really just that simple, thank you Tracy you rock!
That argument is brilliant in its simplicity.
You guys can't prove that there is no chair in the room so...... Why do you guys hate the chair so much? Is it because you like standing? Is that it? You just want to stand so you choose to believe that there is no chair so you can feel better about standing? Let me tell you something! the chair is in there and one day you will stand in front of it and it will be too late! You will have missed your opportunity to sit. Hopefully it's not too late!
SOrry to hear you're ill.
I don't hate the chair. What I do have a problem with are the people who use this chair as an excuse for their actions. Look, you can believe in a god all you want, but remember that your actions are going to affect reality, so it is in your best interest to try to understand reality the way it is rather than making false claims and believing them just because they are comforting. If you are going to understand reality the way it is, you are going to prevent yourself from making bad decisions. You don't live in vacuum, you're actions are going to affect others, and I don't think others want to get hurt just because you are ignorant and refuse to open your eyes.
+Epic Beno the fool has said in their legs, there is no chair
+Epic Beno I'm kidding anyways guys. I agree with you 100% btw...
Martin Obregon You can't even imagine how happy I am that you don't actually think this :D It's pretty hard to recognize a troll these days, when alot of christians actually use these so called "arguments". :D
Tracy's argument is slightly flawed. A chair existing in a room is at least a plausible claim because we have examples of chairs in rooms. It would be better to describe it as a chair that claims to simultaneously exist as three completely different furnishings and have created itself outside of time and space.
Eric Klepadlo shut up bitch Tracy never wrong 👰🏻😍😍😍😍😍💙💍
It's not flawed. She's not talking about a question of whether it's possible, in general, for chairs to exist in rooms, she's talking about a specific chair, in a specific room, which must be verified independently of past experience because a specific claim is being made about a specific chair in a specific room.
The only thing flawed is your reasoning. She wasn't arguing possibility, she was arguing actuality.
The COMFY chair?! Dah dah dahhhhhhh...Nobody Expects The Spanish Inquisition!
Love Tracy's logical analogys.
i would (sort of) disagree with the lovely tracy on this chair analogy.
Personally i don't go for this "sitting on the fence" or the not having an opinion approach - All theists have are arguments without evidence. Which on one hand you can say well no-one knows if the chair is there or not. however to make a practical assessment you have to look at the arguments. In almost every argument I hear for a God it falls short in someway and is more a series of apologetics rather than a positive argument. For this reason I side with atheism and am not agnostic.
amisfitpuivk
Such "feelings" whether through meditation or religion don't have much validity for me. In one sense I would agree - we are all connected to the universe, we are part of it - and yes there are moments in my life where I feel "spiritually connected" - walking in the mountains, having sex, a night under the stars etc etc.
And I don't like this "But there is a possibility of God" stance; there is a possibility of lots of things.
So yeah I'm an atheist. "I" know there isn't a God, agnosticism is for cowards......
versioncity1 You're a gnostic atheist. Most atheists are agnostic atheists.
This difference between "I dismiss your baseless claim" and "Your baseless claim is false."
TheOmegau
I guess so. Although in conversation i would generally simply refer to myself as a non-believer - mainly to cut out the tiresome discussion of "what is atheism" - I don't believe gods exist. Simple as that really. As after that the only question is Why? and i can give a list of reasons why.
TheOmegau That's like saying he's a raven magpie or a hawk eagle. Atheist and agnostic are nouns that name things in the same category, not adjectives that describe each other.
Elr James No, actually it isn't. Agnostic only means one doesn't know. Atheist means without gods.
So, an agnostic atheist is: someone who doesn't believe in gods.
A gnostic atheists is: someone who believes there are no gods.
The terms aren't mutually exclusive. Agnostic refers to knowledge, not belief.
Tracy... thus the definition of faith. Thank you for supporting it.
This is further complicated by the fact that for a certain subset of people, for various reasons, it is very important that a chair be in that room.
Love Tracie and I will miss Martin! Please pop back and see us!
Exactly, Tracey very well put.
I would love to join your group for dinner at El Arroyo one day. Problem is I don’t make it to Texas often! Maybe when you are in Tucson, I can meet you folks.
Something about the party hat really pulls this segment together
You can't understand. I have a special relationship with that chair. It talks to me. It makes me happier than anyone I know. That is the literal proof that there is a chair
An imaginary chair behind a locked door to a hidden room in a building that doesn't exist.
this is perfect...
I feel the chair in my heart
Loved her in the ALiens trilogy
Tracy's hat makes the point, darn I admire a strong persons voice.
Tracy might be the best of them all
Tracy Harris reminds me so much of Sigourney weaver lol love this show!
Tracy is really awesome.
fantastic analogy!
This point explains it quite well. To be a theist, one must suspend all logic, sense, reason and facts. It is a hypothesis that cannot be tested.
My right ear agrees with these video.
Somebody saw the chair 2k years ago and wrote it down.
Exactly. Just like how other people wrote things down that we use today.
When you die , you will find out that there was indeed a chair in that room .
Serious hats on now.
I simply love this woman
Tracie is very good at exposing the fundamental flaws in an argument. If "true" means "in accordance with reality" and you can never test a claim against reality, you can't reasonably label it as true. This implies that there can never be a rational justification for accepting any unfalsifiable claim. Belief in the supernatural (a hallmark of all religion) is inherently irrational.
Wizard Suth she makes a number of logic fallacies for her house of cards analogy to stand. First she uses an unnecessary truth. She is saying every pursuit has to be the pursuit of truth. This states that the journey is never worth it, it is only the end result. That goes against many wisdom sayings.
Second it is her definition of truth not a universal definition of truth. I have seen many people focus so much on what they think (religion, politicians, social justice issues). Truth for these biased individuals has lost all meaning as her use of truth does as well.
Third she indicates that if something cannot be seen, it cannot be believed in - but try that against the concept of love, fidelity and honesty for starters. The logic fallacy falls apart.
Fourth she leaves no opening for the true concept of belief. And therefore this takes away any belief in science, any belief in medicine, etc. because no person is going to verify all of those things and to say well you can trust someone else, but in her faulty construct you cannot trust, you have to validate.
Finally she eliminates all pursuit or enjoyment of wonder. No longer should science look to the stars for new explanations because if you cannot validate them, they are not truth to her. In addition there would be no hypothesis, no theories because those start without knowledge that they will be found true.
A fairly pitiful attempt on her part.
Wizard Suth
You don't always need to see things with your eyes to believe, we have other senses. A Creator makes himself known by his creation, a painting or a sculture is enough evidence that there must be an artist.
Using a chair as an example, is ridicules.
Why do atheists say the dumbest things?
LogicalNotes you are the inconsistent one, so I think you top the “saying dumbest things” award.
"Look at the tables. Tables can't come from nothing"
I miss Tracie so damn much
If the claimant locks the room, won't allow entry, that increases the probability that it is a lie for a purpose. Thus would I confront the claim. A clean and succinct analogy.
Very nice analogy.
that was a great analogy..
now I know how to explain to people why I don't subscribe to any belief system!!! thank u for sharing this!!!
my right ear enjoyed this
Spot on!
Sigourney Weaver has always been so well spoken. Bravo.
Pascal says I should believe the chair is there just in case I need to sit down in that room sometime.
I hope that chair is the comfy chair I wished for, and not one of the thousands of terrible chairs that will give me leg cramps.
You could say that the creationists chair doesn't have a leg to stand on.
Atheist uses logic. It's super effective! Christian denied it and gained it's life back. Christian uses invisible force. Nothing happens. Christian runs away.
Sheer common logic! Reason!! Thanks Tracy!
What if I said: "In that locked room, I have a working perpetual motion machine on a pedestal with a base shaped like a square circle and it was started in motion by a married bachelor. He just started it up last week, and it's been going strong for 35 years."
Would it still be rational to remain "on the fence?"
I never knew Sigourney Weaver was this smart
Really great example