How much do joiners charge in the UK? REALITY CHECK if you want this workshop!
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- čas přidán 22. 08. 2019
- A little while ago I ran a poll on this channel asking how much you charge per hour if you're self employed and run a successful business. The results were interesting and inspired this video! Let's take a look at what it costs to run a typical small and large commercial joinery workshop in the UK and how much you need to be charging customers to pay your bills and earn a living. Obviously this is a very high level view of things just using very approximate figures - I've tried not to over inflate the running costs while keeping things as realistic as possible. The main aim of this is to make sure you do the maths and KNOW YOUR NUMBERS before committing to overheads that might destroy your business. I'm still seeing folk vastly under charging and wondering why they're always broke. There's a market out there - just make sure you're charging enough for your hard work. The spreadsheet discussed is now available via membership of my Small Business Toolbox site here: smallbusinesstoolbox.uk/hourl...
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If you can't be bothered watching the video (and if you consider a 25 minute investment of your time to avoid potential bankruptcy too much, then I'd suggest you don't set up in business, ever) and want to cut to the chase, in my opinion:
£30/hr - bare minimum any self employed person should be charging
£31/hr - enough for the smaller workshop AND minimum wage
£49/hr - enough for the smaller workshop AND average wage
£63/hr - enough for the bigger workshop AND minimum wage
£80/hr - enough for the bigger workshop AND average wage
Remember I'm not talking about subcontractors who generally don't have to actively win business. Smaller unit is approx 500 sq ft. Bigger unit is 2500 sq ft. Average wage based on £36k pa gross = approx £28k pa take home. Minimum wage based on £8.21/hr (25+) = approx £16k pa gross = approx £14.2k pa take home. Obviously with the larger unit you'd be well in excess of the VAT threshold so you'd have to cater for this too. Haven't covered VAT at all, just to keep things as simple as possible.
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Hey folks, a few people have asked - absolutely PLEASE feel free to share this vid with your customers! 👍 Just click the 'share' link above or give them this URL: czcams.com/video/Dt2Hx5X5nN8/video.html
I've tried to keep the vid as 'customer friendly' as possible in the hope that the public appreciate what it takes to run a business like this.
Also, you can now download my hourly rate spreadsheet through membership of my Small Business Toolbox site here: smallbusinesstoolbox.uk/hourly-rate-calculator/
I've been doing woodwork, cabinetry, finish carpentry and furniture building, for just over five decades. I'm probably a little too obsessed with all things carpentry.
Here in Canada I have my own 2000 sq ft shop on my property. Everything that we do is custom work.
There's something to be said about having a 100 ft commute across the yard to get to work.
But your absolutely right, I charge $110. per hour., and I put in, on an average, about 50 hours a week, 85% of that time is on the customers dime. I have no end to work, on some projects, in particular commissioned furniture builds, I have a waiting list.
Over the years, I've had so called competitors tell me that they were going to put me out of business. Well I'm still here and they're not.
As a matter of fact I've had many of these competitors add to my bottom line. Where I've had to go in and finish the job, because they've under quoted the customer and were now out of business, leaving the customer hanging. In most cases the quality of the work was fine. A good number of these people would probably be still in business, if they had charged more.
Then there's the Google carpenter, who knows just enough to be dangerous. The only real skill they posses is the ability to Google or CZcams every how too. I like to refer to them as book smart, and life stupid.
These are the individuals I like to call my fishing fund. The money I make fixing their screw ups, goes towards a fly in fishing trip for me and the missus every year.
But yes, having a large shop allows me to take on bigger jobs and more jobs. My first shop, was my 15 X 25 ft converted car garage. It's now the wife's upholstery shop. She, by the way bills out about 80%, to customers, from her 40 hrs work week. She doesn't charge per hour what I do, but it's not far off.
The two businesses compliment each other quite well.
Between the both businesses, I have one full time employee, and the wife has one part time employee.
Just remember, it doesn't matter what you charge, as long as your getting paid.
Or,.....as long as the paycheque cashes on payday, I'm loyal for two more weeks.
I've operated a painting business and a handyman business. My best advise: don't work cheap walk away. Once you start working cheap there is no way back.
Been there Bob. When I started as a handyman I would do work for pensioners mostly, they haglled me down, I felt bad, pensions arent a lot of money etc, before long I was almost working for free on some jobs. Never doing that again.
@Viktor Sligo but as the saying if you work for free you ll never idol, i finished a job beforw where i done 150 hrs in 10 days so i could have a peaceful family holiday, now multiply 150 x 25 = 3750 i didnt even get half of THAT, and then they asked me to pay for their electric power shower@ 250, i did that sum out and they said oooohh can you still not throw the shower in, no i said not to mention the the other extras i did.... pick a number for your day rate and stick to it... people will always haggle, pricing some jobs can be tricky,my answer is this madam or sir, if you went into a restaurant and ordered 2 steak dinners and a bottle of wine deserts and coffee and it came to 250, would you haggle with the waiter over your bill, they always say no,and i say tgen why are you haggling with me then... its quite simple,
Yeah, I run my own gardening and landscaping business and I had to learn that the hard way. There is a way back, but you'll have to burn a lot of bridges and probably fall out with some of your clients in the process. Very easy to fall into the trap of underpicing yourself, especially if you're just a young guy starting out and need all the work you can get like I was. Don't do it, people WILL take advantage of you and will start to treat you like their personal servant rather than a skilled tradesman.
I charge a lot more for my services now, and I make damn sure the price is agreable to the client before I start any work. The overwhelming majority of people are perfectly happy with my prices and the quality of work. The minority who respectfully decline to pay my prices are welcome to find somebody else. The smaller minority who disrespectfully question my prices, or worse yet try to make me feel guilty about them and spin all kinds of sob stories? I won't even give them the time of day, I just walk away.
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GOOD WORK AIN'T CHEAP
CHEAP WORK AIN'T GOOD
Andy, I am reminded of a well used expression when I was working. The sweet taste of a cheap price up front is long forgotten when the bitterness of poor quality bites. Never a truer word spoken I think. Great vid btw.
Derek Williamson times are changing. We live in times of disposable, mass-produced products. People got used to buying things, throwing them out when broken or simply out of fashion or even because built-in obsolescence.
Nobody even complains that a $1000 iPhone is useless after 3 years because the battery is bad but can not be replaced.
Thanks to IKEA people think furniture is supposed to be wobbly but cheap enough so they can replace it often.
It is difficult to complete in such environment
Hi Andy, While this was quite a few years ago I took over a business which gave quotes for free. I was told that the customers would not accept a charge being made. I made a charge with the caveat that the cost would be discounted if they confirmed the quote (which, while not itemised, was always allowed for in the quote) and went ahead with the work. It took a while, as my evaluations and quotes were very detailed. Eventually my customer base started to build and referrals became my main source of customer growth. In the end I stopped advertising and worked directly with existing clients and those that came by referral. The mantra if you do a good job 1 or 2 people may be told, if you do a bad job 10+ people will be told! To build a business takes time. Incidentally I also built in a 10% discount if the account was settled in full within 7 days. My monthly outstanding accounts were about 1% of turnover of which 75% was less than 7 days most of the rest were on agreed, interest free, payment schemes. Debts which ended up being written off were less then 0.2% of turnover ( and I never did a repeat job with this group of clients)
This has been the biggest eye opener for me. Thanks for sharing your knowledge here and on your other channel
No worries David - cheers! 👍👊
Great content Andy. I repair furniture in Canada and have learned some of these lessons too. I applaud you for sharing your knowledge of business costs to help those aspiring to run a successful woodworking business. Scott
Great video Andy, I went through the same process a few years ago and was amazed at the results- especially when you calculate down time. Keep up the good work!
What a fantastic insight, really puts being a one man band into perspective!!! Thank you for making these vids.
Fantastic video Andy, honestly it has really opened my eyes. I'm a self employed gardener, but I do make/build "stuff" from reclaimed materials in my spare time. Like many self employed people I vastly under charge for my time & expertise, your videos/channels really have helped me to refocus on my business plan and how I can move my business into a more sustainable one, hopefully giving me more time with my family. Thank you Andy.
Wow as a hobbyist I had no idea. Of course I knew about overheads and the like, but to get to minimum wage...
Really interesting, thank you. I'm self employed, but in a different industry, so it's interesting to see this laid out like this. As you say, you were certainly optimistic on some elements, like the accountant and marketing remaining the same for the larger unit, but you were very transparent in stating these points out so well done - there was a lot to cover!
Just to pick up on the fuel costs, obviously it depends what type of work you do and how far you may travel, but switching to an electric van could cut that 2000 by 2/3rds.....food for thought!
Its an eye opener. Peter Millard did a costing on a recent job he did and I was taken aback at what he charged until he explained the priceing. It was an education and one the general population need, to appricate the cost of business.
I was told long ago, " If people aren't complaining about your fees, your not charging enough. " B
Superb explanation into the real costings of running a business. I have used a similar method over the years but this is much more effective. Well done and thank you for sharing the information
This video and your followup video are quite possibly the most important woodworking vids I've seen on CZcams, and there wasn't even a speck of sawdust raised in either. Thanks Andy for compiling this information and conveying it so clearly. I have been frustrated by the crazy cheap prices some people expect carpenters to do work for for quite some time. This kind of thinking will hopefully help to change things for the better for many tradesmen!
Fantastic video, thank you for this insight... I only wish I had seen it four years ago! I'd say you were quite conservative with some of the costs involved with the workshop setups but it goes to show just what you do need to charge even in a "worst case scenario" calculation. I'm off to download your spreadsheet and have a play. Thanks for making a great video!
Great video mate, so helpful. I don’t work as a tradesperson but I work in the manufacturing industry where we have a wood lining section. Customers really don’t realise the running cost, time, and effort goes into making a product.
Fascinating Andy. Thank you for this. That big workshop was beautiful... the stuff of dreams.
👍👍👍👍
Thanks so much for making this video; really insightful, especially to someone like me who is only just getting into carpentry on a part-time basis.
I'm not in the joinery business Andy but your video is certainly good to carry across to any business. When I set up my first business (aged 22) I worked on farms, fixing and modifying machinery, I made a living (just) and gained a lot of useful experience. The most useful thing I learned was CHARGE MORE! My business these days is less tools based but the tools I use and make now cost a lot more. I'm in the process of setting up a contract with a new client at the moment and am at the tricky stage of working out where to pitch the price. Your video is certainly helping me focus!
Amazing video- Bravo! This video is so helpful for all those starting out as makers. Its a constructive insight into the reality of being self-employed.
Great and very informative, eye opening video, I wish I've had that info 12 years ago. Recently changed a damaged tyre and something hit me! I've paid £15.00 just for changing a tyre in 15 min ,that's £60.0 per hour! Far more I'll charge the client. The difference is that client didn't moan about price for changing the tyre but will ask for reduction on my carpentry work which is more time and materials consuming.
You need to study finances. Anybody who is running their own business over a long period of time should be retiring as a millionaire. And I am not overstating that.
£10,000 compounded as an investment at 10% at 40 years is £450,000. People earn a lot more than £10,000 over the course of their life.
If you earn £35,000 today that will mean an income of £2400000 over 30 years.
If a client ever asks you for a reduction explain that will mean you have to do a produce less quality and that job will be a failure very direct about this and very polite.
@@jonh1808
Any person with a means of discipline could achieve 10% on their portfolio. My own portfolio has compounded at 27% over the last few decades but I am now becoming far more conservative and my growth forecasts are going to be half of that.
Now my point had more to do with showing the power of compounded growth with a smaller figure of £10,000. A person who is earning £35,000 per year for 30 years will have far greater cumulative effect.
If that person was to invest 7% of their income over that long period they are going to have more than £450,000 of a portfolio by the time they are ready to retire. And if they are running their own business that would not take into account growth within the business.
£30 for a 20 minute dry cut at the hairdressers. It's mental when you think about it
Awesome video Andy, customers simply don’t see this, I worked out several years ago that it costs me £69 a day to be self employed and run a small business and I missed some of the things you mentioned, cheers for the great video 👍👍
A really sensible approach to how a business is run and the overheads. Well done.
What a great video! The never ending battle of the self employed laid out bare; and most employed people think they're exploited.
Another great insight Andy. Thank you for sharing your knowledge.
No worries - cheers Al! 👍👊
Well done mate. Knowing the numbers involved is key. As is working efficiency. This is why I recommend specialisation. Knowing what you're doing inside and out increases your working efficiency so, although you might charge several hundred per day, the end result can still be good value for the customer.
This is worth it's weight in gold! Really well done buddy 👍
Such a fantastic video mate, please keep posting iv subed
Well done Andy, running a joinery business is tough. Especially at the moment. Many of us learn the hard way and end up going under because at the end of the day most of us are guys who like making stuff, as opposed to business men! I fall under the former myself but employ a fair few people now so have had to adjust my way of thinking.
Your video is one of the best things I’ve seen in 15 years of running my own shop.
Well done and thank you.
Ps great software balance sheet. Will make one myself.
This is an eye opener for many people. Thanks for sharing.
No worries Michael! 👍
Very interesting Andy. Thanks for that. It certainly makes you think. Have a good bank holiday weekend. 👍🏻
Chances are he's working! Most self-employed people couldn't tell you when the bank holidays are!
This is a great video. I think it's more important for customers to know about this stuff. They are not just paying for my time and expertise but my workshop and the tools in my van. People who work in a normal PAYE job often don't consider these things. The cost of tooling really surprises the average person.
One of your best videos Andy ,I'm not a joiner but as a farmer run my own business,really enjoy it but making a margin is tough,and have to take what the market offers ,just have to concentrate on keeping the costs down.
For people looking to start their own business or those wanting to expand I,d suggest the local farming community,generally have available spaces and would charge less than the commercial rates you were quoting.
Cheers, that is a good idea.
Long comment alert! Andy, when I watched this video I felt a great sense of relief. I mean, it's painful, but always better to face reality! You have affirmed my suspicions, and saved me a job in creating the spreadsheet I was picturing in my mind. Instead I've just pointed all my subscribers towards your video in a youtube community message. (I’ve posted it on the Facebook Fesdrool group also - are you a member? It's a good place for chat about this sort of thing).
As you may know since Peter mentioned my business on your shared podcast, I have been wanting to make a step up, investing in CNC and getting a proper commercial premises. I already have staff and am fortunate to have a sizeable garage workshop, but since expanding it from just me to a proper business, my legal status there is shaky at best and for some time it has been a high priority to move. But it feels like being on the edge of a precipice!
Whenever I run the numbers it just doesn't seem to stack up. We currently run at break even, despite often being one of the higher quotes customers receive, and losing a 'healthy' number of jobs on price. I'd be taking on probably £2kish extra outgoings and although we'll get faster at the processes with the extra space and machinery I plan to invest in, we obviously then need to be pushing through a higher quantity of work. Yet as things stand, we feel stretched pushing through the current quantity of work, because due to its bespoke nature, it needs a lot of attention to detail in both planning and manufacture and we are still having problems and costly mistakes. It seems naive to think we can run at an even faster pace without also scaling the problems and mistakes!
The problem for many of us in this line of work, is that we go into it sharing the typical customers' expectations of what a 'fair' price is for a job. Then it slowly dawns on us that we are not making any money. But we fail to resolve this sort of 'cognitive dissonance', too often concluding we ourselves are at fault - too slow or inefficient or somehow missing something that would make the work profitable at the rates we've been conditioned to expect.
My mistake has been to continue to compare myself to self-employed joiners who I can’t possibly compete with. It’s become more realistic to compare myself to the big fitted furniture companies who may even be charging double what I currently charge. And why shouldn’t I? I give customers a more personal and truly bespoke service. It just means accessing a different customer base.
My latest conclusion on the way forward is to scale back before scaling up. In the sense of ruthlessly cutting unnecessary costs (including over-staffing, which I did too soon), improving efficiency and turning a healthy profit here before moving elsewhere. It’s dawning on me that I made a mistake investing more in staff overheads than in better machinery, and that’s a correction I’m going to make. A lot of the most successful businesses I’ve spoken to have kept a tight team of maybe just 2 guys, reducing a lot of communication barriers and admin amongst a bigger team.
Thanks again for taking the time to break down the figures and help the rest of us clarify the situation.
Hey bud - great post and cheers for posting on the FB group. No, I'm not on FB - I have my business pages just to hold the URLs but deleted my main account about 18 months ago. Always appreciate folk posting links on there though so cheers! Share away! 😀 I do think it's key to keep overheads to an absolute minimum. I get very nervous when I see successful businesses suddenly buying lots of vans, taking lots of staff on and spending a fortune on tools without running the numbers first. I'll not say who as I don't want to embarrass them but seen this with a few non-woodworking CZcamsrs and it's like watching a car crash in slow motion. Too many folk either don't bother running the numbers or, worse still, run the numbers and ignore them - hoping they'll magically "work it out somehow". It never ends well. You've got a handle on it and I think you're absolutely right to compare yourself with the bigger fitted furniture players. Have you tried breaking out in to commercial work? For the quality of work you're doing it's criminal that you're not raking it in. Keep up the good work! 👊
Interested you’re not on Facebook. Smart move for reducing distraction and time wasting. Is that why?
This is a great video, thanks Andy
I’m a retired carpenter at 64 years old and been retired for 5 years . Taylor Woodrow thought me shuttering on stairs and all you need is a skill saw level bevel handsaw hammer and a good drill ‘ nips a plum bob pencil which when I got a job in London I could get on my motorbike with my tools . On average I changed £900 a flight labour only . that’s six treads landing then seven treads . I could do three a week easily and always had Friday off so £2700 a week less tax and loved every minute off it 🙏 forgot 4 3 and 2 inch nails and a nice local 🍺
Fantastic vid, it's a must watch for people looking to have work done by tradesmen. And I absolutely agree that professionals should charge professional rates for professional work. When I ran my own medical devices business, I wouldn't call my specialized kits 'expensive'. Instead, I called them 'high value'. And they were. They enabled surgeons, reduced procedure time and reduced training time. I delivered a first rate product with first rate service and I charged accordingly
Andy well on form. Sold gold information as ever.
The depressing thing is most customers don’t know (or don’t care) the difference between shockingly bad work and first rate work.
+Chris B
Most do care about good work. Only a very small number will be clueless but then again one in ten people have an IQ less than 90.
Most people know what a Mercedes, Rolex and Rolls Royce are. Most know what a high end house looks like. They have seen enough TV shows and magazines do know what to expect.
If you are talking about services such as electrical or plumbing then many will not understand it due to the fact they cannot really see it apart from bathroom fixtures or second fix electrical.
There are people who simply do not care but again they probably never get a hair cut.
bighand69 I’ve been in plenty of homes belonging to friends, family and customers and been astounded by the shoddiness of work. Work that I just wouldn’t have paid for. Maybe the work is on par with the pay but many people trading in the U.K. construction industry turn out a DIY level of work often at professional rates.
Lots of people are aware of brands such as Rolex but wouldn’t know the difference between one bought from boat boy in Thailand and the genuine article.
I was on a couple a couple weeks ago and heard a guy tell a neighbour he can do the plastering and he dont even charge a tenner a hour, I also worked on a house where guy had fellas off the estate painting his house for 30 quid a day lol
i have just completed a replacement roof on a school, 7 roofs 6 box gutters, 10 dormers and one valley gutter, the joiners that the company brought in didn't know how to do box gutters, valley boards, they couldn't even do a plumb cut and still demanded 200 per day, i constantly tried to get them off my site but my boss said they was cheep, i said 2 proper joiners would have it done right in a 1/4 of the time, so while i'm managing the site i''m having to work on the tools putting there shit right, the moral of this is pay proper wages and have quality work done
@@knifenovice Depressing isn't it.
Very well presented business plan. A lot of items are also applicable in South Africa. Rates obviously differ.
I've been self employed for 20 years (now semi-retired). Deciding what level to peg your charges is a perennial issue. My test for costing a job is the criterion of equal temperament. I need to feel that I'm covering my costs and making a fair profit and the client needs to feel that they are not being gouged, so they will come back again and possibly recommend my services. If the potential customer has unrealistic expectations (very common with private customers) sometimes it makes achieving that balance impossible at the first attempt. The key is to be able to send the customer away but not to upset them by ridiculing their request. They may eventually end up coming back to you with a more realistic offer if you don't send them away with a bad taste.
Random tips for costing, and self employment in general based on personal experience.
1. Never give 'new customer' discounts. They will expect those concessionary rates for all subsequent jobs.
2. Be fair, honest and open with customers, it will pay dividends in the long run.
3. Keep your repeat customers happy.
4. Don't fall for the sunk costs fallacy. When you realise that you are in a hole, stop digging immediately.
5. Don't low-ball your estimate and gouge the client for extras. You will not be forgiven for it.
6. Never work for free on the promise of 'exposure'.
7. Personal recommendation is infinitely more valuable than paid advertising.
Being self employed is different to running your own business. Working 8 hours on a site labour is completely different to running a workshop or running a van from job to job.
Great video!! This has been posted on our sign makers forum, we are plagued by cheap businesses who generally don't last that long but, will do untold damage.. I don't mean start-ups who are finding their way and working out where they sit - most o us have been there, but larger businesses that ought to know better, or even the beer money bedroom guys (but that's another can of worms!). A properly run business with rented workshop space, with correct insurance, good quality materials, a good skill set and good tools / equipment can not survive on charging small hourly rates.
A few years ago we (me!) went through this process of working out all outgoings and what we expected to earn etc. not accounting for sick days (3 in 7-8 yrs) we realised that our £25 /hour was nowhere near enough, we jumped straight to £40ph, and a year or so ago £45, we're now vat reg'd having hit the threshold... all a single man business... though I probably do still work too many hours!
Learning to stick to your pricing, ensuring your pricing is accurate, and learning to say NO from time to time, is the only way to sustain or grow your business.
As a guide to insurance.. Just myself.. a motor trade policy to cover me moving customer vehicles with a std liability of £30k damage and my own vehicles is £1000+. My combined liability which coveres pretty much everything else from hand tools to £16k printers, from stock to customers vehicles in the workshop overnight etc, is another £1k +. Yes you can get cheap insurance but do be sure it covers you for working at 6m repairing a wooden facia board... you'll be surprised what cheap insurance really doesn't cover!
Fantastic post - thanks for sharing! 👍👊
Excellent info. Can be applied to any type of business. It's easier to lower prices but not so to put them up. I know, just going through this whole process right now!
Brilliant informative vid. Cheers pal
Brilliant video I've ran a joinery shop for 9 years now and only in the last 2 years I've started to charge the right amount a reputation takes time to build
36,000 is the mean UK wage. The median is 28,000 which is a more realistic way of looking at these things when referring to “average wages”
Plus 20% VAT
Equals £17/hr
Its 29k average if you include part time workers or 36k if your only using fulltime wages.
@@Hitngan if you dont count any running costs at all
Great video Andy ,and its true ,people dont mind paying for what they want ,sometimes it will cost you with over runs ,and well sometimes life is going on at the same time for them ,ive used waste products(pallets ,old furniture ) more than once to give someone something within the budget ,it a trade where you are always learning ,and yea as we get older ,where not as fast ,but dam were good ,when we get to that point ,well you really dont have to look for work ,they look for you again and again ,always put in 110 % where your making enough money to take a vacation on your earnings or helping someone less fortinet out and always give back
It’s great to see a realistic look at this.
I’m a marine engineer not a joiner but I face the same thing from some customers. They’ll sit there on their £250k yacht moaning about me charging £120 for an engine service.
Chris Ryan thats why they have a yacht...
It must be a very basic engine service on a boat for £120. From what I read generally it must cost at least 3-6 times to get about on a "yacht" than in a nice family car (e.g. Mondeo).
I wouldn't use an engineer who said £120. I had a small boat with a 115 hp outboard, cost me £350 for a100 hour service plus £210 lift out fees......
@@iandennis7836 Who did you get to work for £3.50 per hour? Maybe Chris Ryan just changed the oil and the air filter.
Thank you for taking the time (especially now we know how expensive it is).
My brother in law and I started about 18 months ago, built our own small workshop on his land and worked with the tools we had and could easily afford, just to see if it was viable. Neither of us needed income from it immediately (we still only work there about 3 days a week). Now that we are more or less established questions like this start to come up, since our productivity is limited by the tools and space we have. Hopefully in a year or so we have enough (commercial) clients to take the plunge and turn it into fully fledged joinery business.
I would advice anyone starting out to try it out of your garage first and see if you can move your client base beyond family and friends before you risk it all with big loans for shiny tools.
Very wise words. 👍👊
you can try subcontracting. before the plunge.
Hi Andy Brilliant vid thank you and you are quite right too many gifted trades people not charging enough
Hi Andy
Another brilliant video wish it had been around 25 years ago lol
Steve
Brilliant stuff 👍🏼
Lots of great info here, thanks a lot!
As an accountant, I approve. I don't flinch from paying a living wage to anyone, even my brother who is building my extension - I also do his accounts.
Did some work for a family friend once that involved painting, taking down wall partitions and getting rid of their furniture. It took me n my brother 3 days working through the night to get it done on time for them moving out and they only paid us £100. Was doing them a favour as they couldn't find anyone and they shafted us. My bro even had to take time off his other job which would have at least got him minimum wage. Never doing work for family friends again unless they agree to a price upfront. Great vid on breaking all the costs down.
I agree. Working for friends or family is awkward, unless it is fully understood that there will be a charge, and what that charge will be.
Reality check by Andy. And he is optimistic about the costs. I have been known to advise cutting firewood; earning more and sleeping better.
Really opens my eyes simaler thing being a decorator and only charging £10 a roll to hang paper I've been thinking of putting price up for a while. Thank you
I am a self employed kitchen fitter in the South East for 30 years.
I charge £300-£400 a day depending on access and I am always busy.
Hi Im a carpenter for 20 years ive fitted lots of kitchens. (Budget, bespoke and modern kitchens) I struggle to find full time fitting work. im based in south east and looking for more regular work. do you have any advice ?
@@benjaminedleston6519 Start with a big company like Wren, when you have learnt to fit look for 2 or 3 studios to keep you very busy. Good luck, it is a good trade.
Thanks Andy for the breakdown. I usually charge either $300 a day, or $35 and hour depending on the job. I have a home baement shop.
@DR PHIL It depends on the job. I charge more for larger jobs or builds. This is an average.
@DR PHIL i will definitely take that into consideration. I have many projects coming up that I haven't priced yet. Thanks. I appreciate it.
I'm retired from owning a Bespoke furniture business. We had a 2000 sq ft workshop and a small showroom /office. We only made money by making everything ourselves so I guess you could call us manufacturers. The profit was in the price of what we made. Our fitting costs were subsidised by this profit as we could not factor in the real cost of fitting to the customer. On average I had 9 bench joiners and 4 fitters putting in our bespoke kitchens, media rooms and commercial shopfitting. Just running as general joiners we would not be able to charge enough. Although based in Whitby we did work in London and also Ireland where we were able to charge more for our furniture.
Spot on. 👍👍
Cheers bud! 👍👊
Joiners in the building trade have always been shafted by lower rates .There skilled tradesman and should be payed accordingly it's a bad day when a fuking bin man gets more than a joiner knocking his pan out .
Bin men don't get paid more than joiners. This is a ridiculous thing to say
Jon A a don't think so mate I know bin mean who make good money .And it's not a hard job is it mean it's a fuking wheelie bin not like years ago when bin men had to lift steel bins full of fuck knows what I've never seen a happy bin man fuck know why
@@jona9292 they do if there rubbish.
You are so right Other trades get alot more . Been running my own joiners shop since 1986 spent over 20 k on tooling . Made less than my teen-age daughter working at the Range .
No wonder people are not taking on a trade
Excellent advice 🎯💯
Good video. Lots of people think running a business is easy. And with that attitude of false and cheap competition, ruining the markets for serious entrepreneurs. Nice side of that coin is, the trend is heralding the end of the economic heydays and the bums will be shaken out, down and out for a long, long time. Keep going! Quality always wins in the end.
I figure I have to charge at least $50.00 an hour for my small woodworking shop, labor and shop time. At that rate I find very little work, anything less and I lose money.
Andy,
Interesting that you price on an hourly rate. When I was full time I worked on a ‘Day Rate’ (DR), for lesser periods the rate I charged depends on if I was in the ‘toyshop' (workshop) or out at customers.
After much discussion when I took over the family business I based my price on 2 set points; 1, the rate in '77* & 2, what the average going rate in area is - it’s amazing what can be learnt in the pub.
I never refused payment in any form, even cash. I always declare all payments but did build a ‘discount’ into the DR for Prompt Payment (5%).
*there is a RPI calculator on the web to set today's values on historical costs.
I know loads of joiners who work purely onsite. All tools in van etc. It certainly saves on overhead costs. Also I know joiners with garages and workshops. I dont know anyone who works out of a new unit as the costs are far higher than an older unit, and offices, 2nd floor etc are already in place.
This is probably the most important video I’ve ever watched
Great vid Andy, I have been doing this since 1978 for myself, and never made as much as i should have, and in the 70s and 80s I worked 7 days a week, and other than on insurance work that did pay-well, and I was vat reged for 30 years, the best thing I did about 6 years ago was de- reg for vat and go back to working as a sole trader, stop all or most of the building and joinery work, and just do roofs, there is no problem's getting your cash when the rain is showing on the bedroom ceiling.
I turned 60 this year, and now I look back and think that for 30 year or more I should of charged out my rate a hell of a lot more than I did.
Keep up the good work:- Neil
Doing roofs is a real skill - specialising in a niche like that sounds like exactly the right move. Cheers bud! 👍👊
Fascinating and very well thought through video. There are two problems for any woodworker/jobbing joiner: one is the Ikea effect where ‘furniture’ is so cheap. If a flat-pack bookcase costs 40 quid surely I can make one for less? Second is that the public don’t really appreciate practical skills. Building and putting up a shelf or two looks so easy and a bookcase looks so basic in design so ‘surely that’s a 10 minute job’........ who hasn’t heard the words ‘just a half-hour job’? Little do they realise that for the shelf of two I had to spend time with them defining their requirements then pricing it, buying the materials, probably prepping the timber, travelling to and fro, finally doing the job followed by cleaning up, preparing the bill and banking or recording the payment. Their 10-minute job has probably taken me at least half a day from start to finish. In their mind I was there for and hour or maybe two so surely 20 quid (or bucks) is about right for putting up a shelf or two. Does any tradesman see it different?
Great information in your reality check, wish is was around when I first started, I did a similar analysis at my local business advice centre back in the day, helped me out a lot and made me realise how easy it was to be a ' busy fool'.
Cracking video and some fanominal research
Was it by any chance Simon Coopers comments you read out?
Another top video Andy. Keep it up.
Very interesting. As you may remember I have a wood work shop at home that's nearly finished but I still need rented workshop too for my grounds maintenance business. They're not cheap.
I actually find videos like this more interesting than the woodworking videos 😂
I think the figures you used for rent are fairly optimistic, especially if you're like Peter and live down $outh. I think us northerns have it fairly easy!
With regards Simon's comment, I think businesses are less likely to question the costs because they understand how much things actually cost. Whereas the average consumer goes to IKEA and pays £5 for a side table.
Yup - I've never had costs questioned doing corporate work in big offices etc. My only regret is not charging enough even at double my normal domestic rates. 😀
You have based every single thing on you being correct!!!
He's not saying he's correct whatsoever. He's giving examples of costs so it helps people to plan a business. There are many variables
Very interesting stats Andy.
Amazing data, I wish I have seen it few years ago
great video. work can be done three ways: cheap, fast, and good. you can only pick two.
Whatever you say a joiner like any tradesman gets paid what people will pay. There are some top trades folk that can demand a premium but generally the majority can only demand what the market will pay. As a very senior nurse my good lady never earned a fortune and unlike many was always taxed on every pound.
*The market* is key. Set your sights on the market appropriate to how you value your time. Too many are fishing in entirely the wrong pond.
And the market will pay exactly what he's talking about, if the person markets themselves properly and provides the appropriate level of service.
Preach on Brother! If you don't think you can charge proper rates for your work, then your work is probably not worth it.
Im an onsite Carpenter/ Joiner based in the north of England and charge £25 per hour and £30 per hour for working away from home (longer hours obviously). I make a percentage on materials and other trades when running a job. I think you can make a very decent living in the uk as a joiner/ carpenter/ cabinet maker. Its all about working smarter not harder. Having a good relationship with your customer is the absaloute key to charging the right price for a quality job.
Andy, look at the hourly charge for Mercedes and BMW and then you know how much you should charge.
I'm not familiar with what wood workers charge in my area but most of the other types of contract work I see around are charging $100+ (U.S.) per man hour. This applies to electricians, mechanics and automation specialists. A lot of these contractors are operating out of 1000 sq ft shop with a pick up truck or a van and they aren't getting rich.
I know a handyman who does all sorts but his background is a joiner. He's got 25 years experience, mainly working on social housing. He's worked on his own for around 5 years now and he charges £80 a day. I don't know how he does it. He's a half decent joiner but takes longer than most as he likes to talk. He's definitely under selling himself though.
In this age you are better off having a bigger house (with large double garage) than commercial premises with associated rates and costs (never mind the break ins and thefts we had)
Very interesting video Andy. Did you include a contribution to some sort of personal pension in the spreadsheet. It is generally recommended that you should, aim for a pension pot in excess of £200,000 by the age of 65 which means quite a large contribution and which of course rises the later you start making it?
A very informative video Andy I've just linked back to it on the Woodworking UK facebook group
Thank you Andy! Really appreciate the link. I keep meaning to get on WWUK more - I think I've even got a profile from years and years ago. Just not enough hours! Anyway, 'hi' to everyone on WWUK. 👍😀
Great video!! I ran my business for years and charged £100 per hour. Nearly every customer complained about it due to the fact minimum wage was 8.25 and why should I expect to be paid that much!!
What job did you do?
What job?
Dead right, PROFIT is not a dirty word, despite the political climate today. I have to say Andy, you are one of the most transparent and forthright pros on the platform. Great content and so much experience that you share with all for free! Although not everything translates to North America (my truck alone is $8400 cdn per year), the overview and common sense that you provide is priceless for anyone trying to start or upgrade their game. Well done sir. Cheers!
Anybody who currently votes labour is mad. The party is full of business destroyers. One high ranking member of the party is on video stating that the parties main goal is to destroy the British economy so that they can get socialism to the masses.
@@bighands69 another daily mail deluded gammon
@@sidewodja
It was Labour who caused the banking crisis. And it is Labour who now has a communist leader.
Is that accurate or not?
I am a self employed joiner with a garage workshop which i use for making alcove cabinets etc although most of my work is on site. when we bought the house part of the criteria was a garage that could be used as a workshop, i lined it out with sound insulation etc. I am time served city and guilds trained with now 37 years experience. I personally feel that joinery when done right is the most skilled trade in the building industry. But have found that if you charge above 30.00 per hour you struggle to get the continuity of work. At the moment I dont think we have fully recovered from the 2007 crash, and dont think there is the money out there to pay. I personally feel that a joiner running a business should not be earning just a wage, and definitely not minimum. But it is very difficult to make a good living doing this job at the moment. Things may change in a few years as real tradesmen become more scarce.
Well said.👍👍
Good video... Obviously with a shop of that size you should be pumping out the goods...
If you want to retire some day you’ll need to reserve money for that. 15% of your net income would be a good/low starting point.
You will also need insurance against ‘not being able to work because of a long lasting illness’. (Sorry non-native speaker).
This is also very expensive.
That calculator is awesome. I bet a lot of small businesses back in the days before this kind of software was available could have saved themselves from going into the red if they'd had tools like this.
It took me many years to realise that when i was too cheap people were wary, when i was expensive i seemed to be in the right ballpark