Keystone RV Fusion Slide-Out Poorly Designed?
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- čas přidán 5. 09. 2020
- So I took a look at this 2015 Fusion toy hauler 2 years ago and recommended slide out rollers. So Keystone chose a slide support that is little more than a plastic shoe to drag the slide on top of. This is a BAL cable driven slide with the light duty drive unit so needless to say, over time the slide weight deformed the shoe at the corners which increased the drag which caused the slide motor to struggle to move the slide. It became so bad that the only way the slide would move was if the trailer battery was being charged. So join me as I add rollers to the slide and see if it helps. Thanks for watching!
lippert J-36 roller(off set) : amzn.to/40q6Zoz
lippert J-32 roller: amzn.to/3nhuL88
lippert HD J-1 roller: amzn.to/3yXhUKy - Auta a dopravní prostředky
Brilliant fix James! Man give me a guy with imagination, competence and experience every time.
Thank you!
Good Repair! I enjoyed watching a Master Tech at work! We could hear the difference in the motor after the rollers were installed.
I'm happy that you could hear the difference. I swear it was a vast improvement! :)
If this were mine,i would be glad to have it repaired this way.You are the man.
Thank you very much!
Always amazed at your craftsmanship! And amazed by the lack of quality on some of the Rv travel trailer etc. I know making the videos adds a lot of extra time to your work so thanks for taking the time on making them.
Thanks for watching!
Although this is a 3yr old video, it answered the question and showed me the fix for the concern my son has on his camper. I see a spring pre-camping season repair job coming up . Thanks James.
Excellent fix James. Talked to a tech guy from BAL a few months ago. I was told the OEMs are told to put a roller every 16 inches and like this one. They used NONE. Good job OEMs
That's good to know. It's strange how factories care so little some times. Thanks!
@@AZExpert It is a shame that us lowly techs care more than the factories.
Your an amazing repairman! I will be bringing my rv to you when it needs repairs. Thanks for the videos.
Thank you!
@@AZExpert Where is your shop? I am in Utah, but would gladly take the trailer down there for "when the time comes."
Nice work and another great video...thanks for taking the time to film all this.
You're welcome, thanks for enjoying them!
Watched many of your videos and enjoyed each one, while learning something new about RV repairs. Just Subscribed ! Brian
Welcome aboard! Thanks for watching!
Thanks this helps a ton. I have a large slide catching on its outside edge when you try to retract . I had to Jack it up the last time to get it up and over the lip. Thanks for the solid advice as always!
Hope you are able to get it going.
James great work I look forward to watching all your videos thanks for the great job you be doing
Thank you, that is a high compliment to watch all my videos.
Wow! What a great solution! Just followed this to a T today on my 2014 Fuzion, and my slide works better than new. Not a bad job either. Had to drill a couple mounting holes slightly higher in the center bracket to be sure I caught the wood. Power riveter is a must. Did mine by hand and broke the tool.
Great to hear!
Another great re-engineering job that the factory should have done. Maybe that one will need some plates added between the rollers and the floor some day also. You rock.
thank you!
Nice fix. Thanks for putting this video together. Happy trails!
Thanks Phil
Another good job and thanks for taking the time to share your vast knowledge. God Bless.
You are welcome, thanks for watching!
Love the videos, I will do my rollers in a couple weeks. Looks pretty easy. Thanks!!
Entertaining to watch... I've only ever done warranty repairs for rollers. I never realized how many there are!
The forklift comes in handy I had to do mine on a muddy 'gravel' campsite with a bottle jack.
The forklift started to get in the way. The lift cart or bottle jack was ultimately easier. I have little patience for mud.
I added rollers about 6 months ago. Made a big difference and seems to be holding up. Good to see my thinking confirmed
It seems so obvious we have to wonder why the factory didn't do it originally. Glad to hear it held up so long. Thanks!
@@AZExpert ...and the fact that Lippert manufactures these rollers to begin with, it should be a clue to the RV industry to be beta-testing for their own slide installations.
I watch a few RV related channels and Big Truck Big Rv is one I have learned a lot from and when it comes to slides it seems hydraulic can be finicky/expensive, for large slides Rack/pinion then Schwintech are ok but cable are best left to small/light slides. Your creative work around to get the slide to function was great to see, good job.
Thank you. This full wall slide was a rarely built model but hydraulic. I really do prefer the electric single motor rack and pinon, but the industry has chosen every other one but that one. It's crazy
Excellent! Thanks for this Video I will absolutely be doing this!
You got mad skills, James!
Thank you very much!
Nice job. Engineering wise it seems a lot of brands consider a design successful if the cost of failures during the warranty period is less than the cost of putting in rollers to begin with.
Well said!
Doing mine this weekend. Keystone cougar x lite. 28RLS 2017. Using the J-36 rollers. Two screws a little easier . Your vids give me confidence. ✅✅
Thanks for watching, good luck!
@@AZExpert worked great.
Clean, simple solution to a garbage design. Well done!
Thank you!
I have a similar problem with my 2012 KZ Durango 5th wheel bedroom slideout. When built, the factory didn't even install all of the slide blocks required, never mind rollers. When notified, KZs response was very unhelpful. I'm repairing and improving using the method in this video. Thank you!
Good luck, I suspect it will help a great deal.
Very nice solution to the problem, looks like it worked well.
We almost bought a keystone product last year for our first rv, we went to the dealership 3 times to look at different models and each time I would find problems with all of them, was not impressed at all with the lack of quality from them. Seems like they didn't even pdi the units before putting them on the lot. All the while, the salesman kept telling me they were " super high quality products"....
Thanks for watching! :)
Be interesting to see what the amp draw was on the motor before and after.
Thanks for the videos. I manage a RV repair shop that specializes in structure rot/roofs/collision. Nice to see anothers point of view. Want a job? Haha. So difficult to find competent people in our industry.
You are welcome. I'm glad you enjoyed them!
WHAT A MONSTER🤣😂GOOD JOB!!! AS USUAL...LUV WATCHING YOU...WHEN I have cool ideas, I call mysrlf an evil genius🤣😂🇨🇦❤🇺🇲
RVs are always listening for a challenge, so I keep quiet around them.
Unbelievable. Actually scratch that... Totally believable. We should be ashamed of what we've become, designing to a price point to maximize initial profit (which in a perfect world from the manufacturers' perspective barely makes it exactly past the warranty period) before needing major repair. And people wonder why their RV's lose 70% of their value in the first 5 years. Great job. You're an engineer in my book.
It is sadly very believable and thank you!
The great global plandemic-19 virus has caused RV prices to triple.
I didn't know that anyone built slides like that (cheeeeeep). That is a good way to fix it, and I'll pass it along if I ever see another. The irony is that these are slide-outs, but if they actually have to slide across something, even a plastic runner, they aren't that good! You do earn your "Expert" name!
Thank you. These slides are not researched as much as people think they would be, mostly the R&D is after it was purchased.
The crazy part about all of this is it wouldn’t cost a whole lot of money or taking much time at the manufacturing level to put a full length roller along the bottom of the slide out. I think it’s a perfect fix.
Factories generally tend to go where the money is and what is demanded unfortunately.
Another good one, James.
Thank you, glad you enjoyed it!
I have a 2017 Keystone Sprinter and this issue just started on dining room slide, mainly on the right side, going to use soapy water until I get home then the roller fix. this is on the dining table and couch side. The bedroom slide for queen bed has 3 hard rollers so not a issue. You would think Keystone on newer models would fix this will rollers rather then a piece of cheap plastic ! Your video was very good, after watching this I can do this will no problem and will use a 4x4 and bottle jack.
LoL glad I could help
Very thorough craftmanship. You think about the long term on your repairs. Great job!
Thats the hope. Thanks!
I have 2016 Fuzion Toy Hauler with same slide jerky slow moevement problem on 2 slides as this unit you show. Cant find the Lippert rollers in stock anywhere. Thanks James for the video
Hey Good luck finding those! Thanks for watching
Excellent job bro.
Thank you!
Thanks for making this video, at least now I'll know what to do when mine fails. You're not an engineer, you're a re-engineering genius. My 2018 Sunset Trail (made by Keystone) uses this same design. No problem so far but I've looked at is several times and wondered how long it will be before it starts binding. Seems like a poor design to me ( and I am an engineer).
you're never suppose to tell a techician you're an engineer....we're enemies. LOL thank you for the compliments and support!
@@AZExpert this is true! been in aerospace for over 30 years now, engineers suck! lol😐
Dustin we have a 2018 sunset trail too. Over the last year or so the slide hops going in and out and I’ve used wd40 specialist dry lube to lubricate the friction bar. It worked well for a while but still requires lube every time we move the slide. Now I’m noticing the Darco material fraying on the ends so now I’m thinking it’s time to install these rollers. Have you installed these rollers on your sunset trail and which rollers did you use? Also, do you guys know what I could seal the darco with to keep water out of the plywood floor? I wondered while watching this video that you can see the plywood floor since this customers darco was so worn off. Installing rollers but never sealing up the bottom aren’t you going to end up with a rotten floor and have to do major repairs down the road? I was looking at flex seal paste to coat the frayed darco. But would love your opinions!
Great repair !
Thanks 👍
I like the idea of the extra room, the final Product is a disaster and a repair bill waiting to happen if you’re close enough and lucky enough to somewhere they can repair it. I have the Schwinn tech system and because of how poorly and overstressed in the way that it is designed and engineered it keeps me from using my RV in fear of it breaking. If I had to do over again I would not get a slide out regardless of the manufacture, your experiences may be different but it’s not worth the chance you take for me to do it again. as long as RVs are out there The repair people have plenty to do.. Thank you AZ expert you’re doing gods work.
I have a very similar opinion about slide outs.
@@AZExpert ...when my wife Lisa and I bought our motorhome, we chose an older non-slide for similar concerns
It’s a crazy design depending on cables for all that weight.
Love your videos. Thanks for sharing your knowledge. As for adjusting the height location of the rollers do you raise it up an 1/8", 1/4" or whatever. Also will it affect the pitch much of how tight the inside seal seats up to the walls?
I actually just got all of my rollers in to do the same to my 16 model fusion. The bedroom slide has rollers beneath it but the main heavy slide is like this one.
BAL themselves sells a roller to repair this, and has stated to me on the phone that the suggested keystone to use the rollers instead of the slide bar. The BAL number is 854304. I got mine from Dyers RV online their number is 97444. I am considering putting either 1\8 aluminum or uhmw plastic as a runner for the roller to keep from the roller wearing into the particle board under the darco material
Thanks for those numbers, I have a 2016 Fuzion 414. It appears that you determined we have 1/2" wear bars, good to know. How did your install go?
Thank you so much for a great video.
You are so welcome!
This problem was driving me crazy for 3 years. I have a Keystone Impact 312 TT TH. I ordered the rollers and will tackle it as soon as my steel rivet gun arrives. I just wish they would manufacture it right from the factory. I would gladly pay more more and not get aggravated. Again, Thanks for the help.
Wish I had known about you before I got rid of my 2011 Georgetown slide problems an water issues from day one
Slides and their repairs can be a a difficult task.
Two words: you're awesome!
thank you!
Absolute genius. I’d guess the plastic “guides” wear down with that heavy slide on it. The rollers are far better to carry the weight. Probably not worth welding the rollers to the frame. Not everyone has a forklift to lift a slide 😂. I got some airbags and cribbing on a rescue squad that would work. Nice repair and better then new. Motor sounds less stressed 👍🏼
Maybe if it was a solid shoe, but it was a hollow tube with one vertical support, how could it not collapse? The forklift was overkill in hindsight :)
AZ Expert they are built for a good time, not a long time. 😂
I would love to work with this guy, Would learn a lot
Thank you, I learn a lot from everyone I work with too.
Only concern is how the bottom of that slide will hold up against those rollers. As Glen suggested, using a thin nylon/plastic guide for the roller to run on would be ideal, but adds another layer of complexity to the repair. Your fix sure makes the motor sound more normal and is WAY better than the OEM design. Owner just needs to keep things lubed and watch for wear.
Thanks for watching! :)
It would appear that common sense is pretty much in short supply with some of these designs. There's a huge difference between working fine on paper and actually working in the real world which gets overlooked far to ofter, Another great work around that was well thought out and executed. An expensive piece of paper that costs a fortune to acquire and then hang on the wall in a pretty frame is no substitute for experience...
I'm surprised they didn't install them too
Awesome video! Can you show or tell me what you did after you got the rollers installed to reseal the underside where you had to cut the seal to fit the rollers. I can see light through there now. Thanks.
Nice job re-engineering these slides. And good of the owner to leave you a granola snack under the second slide!
I have a 2016 Keystone Sprinter 5th wheel that has the same cable driven slides with the plastic threshold. I recently have changed out motor and gearboxes on 2 of my slides. Now found water damage on the floor of my large dineette/sofa slide (watched another one of your videos on that repair). I am going to add these rollers to my large slide when i pull the floor to replace. I had looked at that slide in the past and wandered why there wasnt rollers on it. Thanks for the great videos.
I'd do one more thing to finish the job.....seems it wasn't till 2020 or so manufacturers finally figured out a simple $3 drip edge piece of metal (or plastic) would be nice to put on each end of the slide- remove the trim piece on each end and slide the 90 degree piece of flashing under the slide wall and attach the bottom part to the slide floor with some short screws, then cover with darco tape. Alternatively you can use 4" black eternabond instead, wrapped around. Solves the age old problem of floor rot that starts at the edges and works its way in because when it rains the water runs down the wall and hangs out on the underside due to surface tension!
Good fix!! I have a 2010 Fleetwood 40X class A and the front side of the drivers slide has dipped and the cover for the slide arm is scraping the top of the side panel below. I was wondering if rollers have a weight capacity?
Great work! Would you recommend this modification as preventative maintenance? I have 3 cable slide outs on my 2024 Forest River Vibe 34xl. Everything works good now since it's new but I try to do anything I can to prevent future issues. Thanks for the content!
Great video. I need to do this to my slideout. How much do the rollers lift the slideout?
I finally found the Lippert install manuals. They show them inboard 6" and every 24-36 inches. The J13 is a suitable PN.👍Keystone just cheaps out and doesn't install them.
thats good information and insane Keystone knows better
We have a 2015 Impact 311 same slide out adjustment. Except the slide is out of square. Wipe on Left is pealing the window trim off tight at top left corner, what else can align this issue. Want to put the rollers on the bottom like this.
Nice.. our gear box for the kitchen slide went out. Found one on ebay.. gear boxes are on back order..
Sounds great!
AZ Expert thanks for the videos you post. I do windows and siding in Texas. So I try to knock out as much as I can myself. We have a 15 raptor. That bal system seems like a poor design to me. I ordered some rollers today after watching your video
It's a very interesting design which allowed different floorplans, but is very prone to failure. Thanks!!
Hello I need an advice I replaced my rv floor but now when slide in it is not well aligned and one corner hit the corner frame and makes it close with issues any advice for it.
I’m working one on one of these now. Removed the today because the drag bar dialogued .
Sure hope this works. Have a friend that has trouble with those type of slides they had ir since they bought it New. Not a toy hauler 5th wheel
It seems like all I have is hope....but it's working so far. Thanks!
Even better, if you apply a snug fitting washer on the back of a rivet, it pulls the riveted parts together much tighter
Yes, the washer does help, but then I'd have to cut open the other side and put it back together keeping it weather tight. Thanks!
James, you honestly need to hold a TedTalk for RV manufacture engineers and builders. They have no idea until they see post production issues. These post sale results are absolutely atrocious. People are spending tens/hundreds of thousands of dollars and financing out of their ears for 20+ years! And for absolute JUNK. It's like building a Ferrari out of balsa wood. At some point, one of these "cut corners" is going to kill a customer and the manufacturer will go bankrupt paying a settlement. Much of what we're seeing almost looks like intentional negligence. Thankfully many of us owners have you has a reference and guide to try and prevent one of these catastrophes down the road and be more keen to preventative maintenance. Good lawd, I feel sorry for 90's Winnie owners.....lol
Great fix. I think that you should sent the toyhauler company a bill for fixing their mistake.
I think so too
Hi what do you suggest for a hartland northtrail 23rbs slide outs
Thoughts on using FRP panel under the slide out?
How much do you think the rollers raised the slide? About to do mine myself. Them you.
It probably wouldn't have hurt to put skis on those slide edges since the coating has been torn down to the wood. Relatively cheap additional wear and seal protection, especially since the brunt of the weight is now on a couple inches of roller on each side.
it couldn't hurt. Thanks!
We have a 2016 voltage toy haer with the same cable system. I think this would be a good idea. Our floor is partical board (great huh) which I had to spray the whole under with under paint due to water making it swell.
That's insane that particle board is the floor. If you add rollers add some extra ones to reduce stress on the board.
@@AZExpert yes the bottom is particular board.i seen your video on a motor coach that you was fixing the slide out track that had metal strips for the rollers, i like that.
Do you know if the slide has rollers on the forward edge to prevent it from digging into the floor ? I have some slight scratches on my flooring where the slide touches in the retracted position . JwgK
it should as the roller should lift the slide up slightly more, if it's tilting then the cables are misadjusted.
Nice job. I wish the manufacturers would have their engineer cronies watch your videos of all their flawed designs. It’s really sad that after all the years of making these trailers that they are still so far behind in logical engineering practices.
I was shocked to see the frame fail so bad too
The repair was about a year ago. I am wondering if the RV has been back for a check and if the rivet holes have held or 'wall'erd' out?
Our goal is to never have them come back
@@AZExpert The Milwaukee riveter doesn't work with 1/4 x 1/4 rivets. Did you use a 3/16 x 1/4 or 3/16 x 1/2? Thanks!
can you not use the J 36 roller if you cut out a piece of the rub bar
So how much of final gap did you have after the rollers installed? Did you jack it up about 1/4 inch and then install the rollers?
Have you ever had to replace the slide rollers on a 2004 Alfa Gold? How complicated is the job?
How long is the sofa slide with 5 rollers added? How long is the kitchen slide & how many rollers were used?
Given enough time, do uou think the bottom will deform and start dragging again?
Umm.. at time stamp 21:10 do you see a gap (sunlight) at the top of the slide when closed?? That could be bad
I did, I'm telling myself it was the glare from the window above. I didn't notice it in real life so just a camera thing
How high do you mount the rollers? I think you raised high enough to see the plastic rail? Put the roller against the bottom of slide then screwed it in? Let slide down?
oh enough to support the slide so it's not dragging hard on the wear bar.
how come you did not use rivnut instead of rivets? With the rivnut you can atleast unbolt the roller?
Of course, I am only looking at it from my computer but doesn't this transfer all the weight of the slide to the rollers when it's in? I am concerned about all that weight sitting on the edge when bouncing down the road. That being said you did exactly what I would have done to correct the problem. Great job as always!
Yes, but most slides are supported by roller at all times. That's what these are designed for. Thank you!
@@AZExpert I am needing a new roof put on my 38-foot Raptor fifth wheel. I know it needs 2 sheets of plywood replaced on the back as well. I wish that I was close to you but I am in Georgia. What should a job like that cost me? I haven't got a price on it yet and was just wondering if you could tell me a good price? Thanks!
Had to add rollers to my alliance, now the slide floors don’t lay flat to the rv floor!!
I used UHMW plastic sheets under my slide out 3 years ago and it works great so far. I had the same problem with this type of slide and it would shake the rv bad when operating the slide. I attached it with 3m tape and counter sunk some 1/2 in stainless screws with some sealer on the screw thread and heads to prevent monster and screws from backing out.
I was going to do the rollers as you did but I thought I would try this first.
Gm and happy Thanksgiving.....quick question....I have a cable slide and was wondering if cable breaks, can I manually push my slide in. Small slide and I believe it's on rollers
Those slides will generally work with one or 2 cables broken.
@@AZExpert how about the gearbox striped?
Is the J-13 roller a little longer than the J-1 roller? If so, is that the only difference?
I just purchased 8 of the lippert J-36 rollers for my Keystone, my slides are through frame rack and pinion style, are the J-36 going to work?
I couldn't say off hand. There needs to be enough room under the slide for the width of that roller. I know there have been a few channels showing that installation.
czcams.com/video/HgGEWmeojN0/video.html
Thanks, I watched that video already, I going to go for it! I feel pretty confident they will work.
Also I realized that the slide up in the bedroom has white plastic rollers built-in. I don't know why they didn't do that on the living room slide out??
Rollers arrived today for the frig side
good luck
@@AZExpertThank you sir
Is there a way to grease those rollers? Great repair btw.
they should not be greased it will cause issues and get everywhere
Hi, tha k you for making this video. Just how much would a repair like this cost?
I don't remember, the rollers are 20-30 a piece I think I think 3-4 hours for installation
@@AZExpert Thanks for the information.
Since u asked ,i noticed the wheel well trim was out of alignment now
Yeah, me too. The factory had to offset the cut fender in order for it to nest better so it looks out of alignment.
I despise working on those cable systems ,I feel ur pain.
Love ur work and presentation.
Where did you source the rollers?
amazon sells them, lipperts online store has them, and of course your local rv dealer should be able to get them. Thanks!
Factory never sees anything they have done wrong.
Would love to bring you my old RV and see if you can fix my slideout. Im in AZ. Where are you, what company?
I'm not currently accepting any work, but I appreciate the vote of confidence!
Is it me or is the motor noise produced my this brand louder than normal? I seem to have heard much quieter motors from other brands.
There are only two types of motors for these BAL slides. The older solid gear box is the heavy duty design and quieter, the newer lightweight has a flexible shaft which is louder and much more common.....because it's cheaper
One of these day Honda or Toyota will build some RV's and finish putting these fools out of business. Good fix AZ
Excellent re-engineering the manufacturers lack of engineering. Totally insane manufacturer engineering. You've got all that weigh sitting on plywood, OSB in some units, wrapped with essentially a tarp and it's expected to glide smoothly over a strip of nylon, which itself is not properly supported and eventually fails. Totally insane. I guess each time they find a cheaper method and componets that works long enough to exit the warranty period manufacturers will continue replacing tried and true methods and components.
I learned the hard way not to tap the toggle to "snug" the BAL electric slides. For all those reading this.....When the motor indicates the slide is all the way in/out immediately release the toggle. Otherwise you'll strip the gears out. James choose not to show the BAL adjustments because there are a ton of videos already available. The hardest part of adjusting these BAL slides is gaining access where the slides are nearly to the ceiling.
Cheers!
Wow, great video. You are an engineer! One with common sense. Can you believe an actual "Engineer" designed that?!! No common sense!!
Thank you. I can't believe the plastic floor guide was designed by someone for anymore than a price point.