Salisbury vs Curzon: The Struggle for Persia
Vložit
- čas přidán 24. 04. 2023
- Between 1899 and 1902, the British Prime Minister Lord Salisbury, and the Viceroy of India Lord Curzon, battled over how best to address Russian expansion into Persia, a buffer state with immense strategic importance to the Indian Empire.
This video aims to be a short documentary looking at the debate between Simla and Whitehall over how best to confront St Petersburg and Tehran
#History, #BritishEmpire, #RussianEmpire
I hope you enjoy this short video on an interesting squabble between British policy makers, over the fate of Persia at the turn of the twentieth century. Sorry for the short delay, it turned out to be a lot harder to translate this script to video than expected, thus I wont claim this a magnum opus, but hopefully the short length means it wont be terribly dull. Other than that, any feedback is welcomed, thank you for watching.
It was great!!!!! Thanks man
Surely did, as always
Are you considering on making a video about the diplomatic plays surrounding Persia/Iran in the Second World War? I know you are mostly focused on the Victoria Era but i find the niche topic of Persia in WW2 extremely fascinating regarding the diplomacy, justification of the allied invasion, subsuquent famine and lack of moral responsibility of the Great Powers (UK, USA, Soviets) involved in Persia.
Thanks for bringing to light something not often discussed
Brilliant as always!
You should do a series on the Great Game! Like with the Anglo-American Conflict. The Great Game has always been a fixation of mine and it is a truly fascinating bit of colonial history
czcams.com/video/jj7ajQh2_cE/video.html
Same I’ve always been fascinated by it but the content about it on CZcams is lacking
Great game between Britain and Russia.
Honestly one of the most fascinating periods that is really ignored so often. I mean it was a literal Cold War geopolitical rivalry that extended across a continent. The Americans weren’t the first to invent such a thing. The Peter Hopkirk book is just fantastic
And then a few years later we side with Russia against Germany. Absolute madness.
Would have totally deserved it if Russia joined the Axis and steamrolled Iran and India.
Cool video! A few things for people who want to know about Persia. Persia and England used to be allied since the time of the Safavids. This grew during Abbas the Great in which British advisors co-ordinates with Persia on an invasion of Ottoman Turkey with the other great powers. The alliance also included support for manufacturing of weopen and support by the British navy against the Portuguese empire which had land in the Persian gulf.
Another interesting fact is that one major reason that Britain even could take over India was the invasion of the Iranian emperor Nader Shah against the Mughals which practically destroyed them.
During the Qajar, which is the dynasty talked in this video, Iran and Britain were yet again allied in the start. Abbas Mirza, which was for great modernisation, got support from Britain against their wars against the Russians. This includes advisors and help to manufacturer weopen, specially cannons. The Persian army at this point became a strong force and scored victories early against the Russians. Yet not go over this in detail, the plan of Iran was that Napoleon (this war was during the Napoleonic wars) would had defeated Russia. The Iranian army, which had well trained soldiers and had in fact won a war against stronger Ottomans, lacked cannons and had problems with organisation lost the war eventually. At this point the Persians and British practically broke their alliance as the British did not see the Persians as worth helping.
Some other wars happened between Britain and Persia, which went pretty good for Iran all things considered. Iran also had one its greatest advisors in its history, Amir Kabir, which nearly modernised Iran, yet was killed as he tried to removed corruption.
But because of mismanagement of Iran, revolt started out (Iranian constitutional revolution), which saw Iran get a constitutional monarchy, yet was quickly destroyed by the Russian army that crippled Iranian economy. After that under WW1Iran declared neutrality, was invaded by Russia and Britain either way. Two government were formed (pro-entente and pro-central powers). Iran as also invaded by the Ottomans. Persian resistance fighters fought and at some point won against all three powers. Russian civil war, Lenin did not like imperialism in Iran so he signed friendship deal with Persia. After WW1 Britain retreated, tried for the last time to make Iran a colony, was actually signed but broken by the new dynasty called Pahlavi dynasty lead by former cossack leader Reza Shah.
This is just a few things that i feel could give more information on this. Good video still and what I have said had taken away a lot of the details.
I'm from Iran and this is a very well written and accurate summary. Abbas Mirza and Amir Kabir hold a special place in Iranian collective consciousness. Things could have been much different if the modernising and competent crown prince Abbas Mirza had succeeded the thrown or if Amir Kabir was not murdered by the corrupt court of Naser-aldin Shah.
A couple of fan facts:
- The Safavids had strong alliances with the Austrian Habsburgs against the Ottomans.
- With the decline of the Ottomans, the Russian empire became the main threat to Persia. Iranians are still hurt about the loss of Caucasus to Russia. To this day if a deal is deemed unfair or one sided we say "it is like the Turkmenchay [treaty]" (where Iran lost control over vast territories to Russia). The Qajars tried to make alliances with the British and then France but with Russia joining the coalition against Napoleon, there was no way the British were going to aid Persia and France had bigger problems to deal with it. Napoleon had considered using Persia as a launching pad to invade India.
@@Cringo-ik9uo If only the modernization had progressed much sooner, I wonder what kind of nation Iran would have become today. Could Miria, and other people have succeeded in drastically reducing the power and influence of the clerics in Iran? Perhaps if they had done something about the Clerics than they would have had more success in modernization and the Clerics would not be in control (no political power) of Iran today?
You forgot to mention England killed half of the population of Iran during WW1 by an artificial famine.
Sikhs destroyed the mughals no one else.
Also the Sikhs tamed Afghanistan, something ussr or American empire have failed miserably at.
@@jmwilliamsart
Lol. Those "clerics" are the best thing to have happened to Iran since the Safavid empire.
For the first time in centuries, Iran can actually defend itself, pursue a totally independent foreign policy, expand its own indigenous cultural influence across the region, invest in its own science and technology, and all this under decades of the severest of pressures from the big bullies on the planet.
80 years ago, Britain and Soviets invaded a neutral 'modernised' Pahlavi Iran and replaced its king. 60 years ago Britain and the US launched a coup against its democratically supported national government. Such things are now in the past, in no small part thanks to those "clerics".
*
Not to mention that British interference in Iran in the 19th century was actually very malign. Not only did they fail to provide adequate support to Iran against Tsarist Russia, they also forced Iran to retreat from its historical claims on Persian speaking lands, because they wanted a weak Iran and a weak Afghanistan to partition between themselves and the Russians.
Not to forget the huge famine caused by British military policy in Iran during WW1.
This is fascinating work! Seeing how the British Raj was treated almost as an independent country, one’s who’s aims could go against Britain, do you know if this played into the Partition of India or its foreign policy once it achieved independence?
Beginning in the 1946 election and especially after 1948 Britain is alleged to have covertly supported Pakistan as a means to prevent Russia from gaining access to the Arabian Sea port of Karachi, which was at the mouth of the Persian Gulf. They were concerned about left wing members of the Congress Party such as Nehru who were seen as too sympathetic to Russia. In the end this may have inadvertently become a self fulfilling prophecy as it pushed Congress into closer cooperation with Russia and the Non Aligned movement especially after the 1963 war with China.
(Incidentally this is also why China ends up supporting Pakistan. Once British influence fell across the world post-Suez, America and China took up the pieces of the decaying British sphere of influence to continue the struggle against Russia.)
@BB49 not together but as rivals. Remember Nixon was the one who first opened China to the West to gain an ally against Russia.
Very much the same way how NATO and Russia were both rivalling to compete for postwar spheres of influence despite both having just defeated Germany.
@@ericthegreat7805 a united india was probably against the interest of the west and Britain in general
such a strong asian power would some day become toe to toe with the west creating Pakistan trapped india....
India will never be able to achieve it's potential as Pakistan will always be a thorn in it's side
It's a an excellent strategy just sucks for india
@BB49 but it does have to do with China gaining influence and friendly relations with Pakistan. Even aiding them in their war against independence in Bangladesh. And assisting in policing roles over the former imperial sphere.
Fantastic video as always. Britain in the 19th century was just something we will probably never see again
The USA is pretty close tho. Basically an informal empire, that controls the economy and bully countries, but dont directly control them.
And that's a great thing!
@@ResidentEyebrowAppreciator not for britain 😂
larp
@@ResidentEyebrowAppreciator not for us.
Im persian, its interesting to know the story from British perspective. Persian perspective id that our politicians played both hands, russia and Britain, to avoid loosing complete independence and control over our weakened homeland.
I think youre one of my favorite history channels out there. You've inspired me to go back to school to study more about history and I hope my classmates appreciate the knowledge you have taught me 👍
The fascinating tidbit that isn't mentioned is how Witte and the Tsar each thought about expansion into Persia. Witte had a logistical way of thinking unseen in Russia since Tsar Alexander's I's time. He absolutely abhorred the thought of Russia expanding into Persia when it could de facto get what it wanted from Persia diplomatically so long as it did not step on London's shoes. The Tsar at the time (I believe also named Alexander. Correct me if I'm mistaken comments section) agreed with his sentiments since conquering most of Central Asia (seriously it's bigger than we think) and keeping it governed somehow was the first priority. Building roads and railways throughout the new provinces had to be thought of first before any expedition into Persia could take place.
Just my two cents on the topic folks. Have a great day.
Russia sort of expanded in Persia when it took some central asia regions and took Caucasus from Persians
@@ShubhamMishrabroi think Russia had already taken quite a few concessions from Persia, not only after the 1804-13 war but especially the disastrous war of 1826-28 with the Treaty of Gulistan that Fath Ali Shah had to sign. I mean all of Persia’s Caucasian territories had been given up there so I think that absolutely loomed over their heads. But also how heavily Russians were involved in Persia later on, like the Siege of Herat
Tsar Alexander III died in 1894 and was succeeded by Nicholas II.
Fascinating. Two powerful British officials with such a Gulf between them.
I keep recommending this channel in comments elsewhere.
"It might no longer be possible to make the integrity and independence of ____ the first object hitherto"
Add that one to the list of hilarious phrasing of diplomatic threats I've heard on this channel.
Hands down the best history channel on CZcams
More videos on the expansion and foreign policy of the Raj would be terrific. Great stuff
Love what you are doing men, keep up the good work.
The rapid pace and quality of your videos astounds, keep up the great work,
Another great video! Hopefully lots more to come!
Just an appreciation comment, one I usually never write to CZcamsrs: I have been watching and enjoying your content for months, and I must say that your channel is by far the one I admire the most. Your graphic skills, the authoritative sources you use and the fact that you sometimes focus on smaller events that are usually forgotten truly make this channel a little jewel I will keep following. I am grateful for the effort you keep putting in your videos, as the results are never disappointing. Keep working like this!
I would be even more grateful if you could read or answer to this comment too, of course. :)
Thank you, that's very kind of you to say.
@@OldBritannia was british raj at that time called british raj or empire of india?
@@SafavidAfsharid3197
The latter I believe.
Since 1877.
Hence the term viceroy (vice - empress would have been strictly accurate) rather than governor.
Absolutely love the subjects and era of history you do videos on. I haven’t seen visual or audible media done to anywhere near this standard. The research you put into each video is much appreciated, as it your focus on facts and details, not sensationalism or generalisation of topics for ‘entertainment’ or popularism for ‘clicks & views’
I can't believe how underrated this channel is, keep going you are worth a million subs!
Outstanding -- your research and fluency with the material is amazing -- instant sub
An excellent documentary on an overlooked subject!
Another awesome video. This is quickly becoming one of my favorite history/geopolitical channels on CZcams. I do have to ask though, what happened to the videos on the history of the British Empire? I loved those videos and none of the other videos on CZcams on this subject have the excellent attention to detail and geopolitics that those videos had. I hope you'll put those videos up once more. Cheers from across the pond!
@@secretname4190 no it’s the history of British raj
I’ve never looked into this, will definitely check this one out. Crazy how much history we have to cut out because of events outdueling!
Great video as always, but I have to point out the slight inaccuracy in the Russo-Persian border on the Caspian coast, since I am from that region. The border was further south of Aras river, according to Turkmenchay treaty which ended the Second Russo-Persian war (1826-1828).
Well done, always a treat to find your videos in my inbox.
I love these videos, great work as always
Hey man, thank you for all of your work on these videos. You're covering my favorite political/diplomatic time period, and doing it better than anyone else on CZcams.
Always love to see a new video from you
Another great video. Congratulations!
Another great video, love your channel!
You never fail to deliver!
Magnificent as always my good man.
Amazing work as always m8!!!
Great video, especially enjoy you giving out the source material for further studying
Yet another video I will watch several dozen times because it is simply that good, thank you for the food
You are honestly the most underrated creator on youtube, It’s crazy to me that you only have 50k subs, I hope you reach 1 mil someday
Excellent history. Thank you!
Love your work and your research from Ireland 🇮🇪
Excellent video as always.
Man I have to say your videos are amazing there soo fun and interesting to watch ❤❤
This channel is just too damn good
Fantastic stuff!
If I can make a suggestion: Can you create a video on British and French rivalry and cooperation in the long nineteenth century?
I know at times France believed it could rival the UK, but knew it could not because of the British Navy
Another great video
Brilliant video once again 👍
i love all ur videos its amazing work, do you think you'd be looking into the Boer War anytime soon? i think the detail you put into videos is unbeatable
This is a minor detail but I really appreciate the accurate depiction of the Rann during this time. Not many people would know or even think about editing it in.
Very informative and nice detail on two statesmen I would love to learn more about
Great work
Old Britannia, Your work is amazing. Your channel is all good work.
Great video as always! I’m wondering if you are going to do a video on the conclusion of this story:
• British support for the constitutional revolutionaries against the Russian-backed shah in 1906
• the Ottoman incursions annexations in Kurdistan and western Persia
• Britain ultimately signing the 1907 St Petersburg Convention with Russia, delegating spheres of influence within the Persian Empire. This essentially ended the Persian theater of the British-Russian Great Game, and the arrangement was defacto respected well into the Soviet era (until the Iran Crisis of 1946).
Thank you for yet another amazing video!!! I only wish I have found your videos earlier? Do you have a Patreon or something similar so we can show our support for these high-quality content? Or perhaps a discord server? The world needs more of this!
I’m afraid I don’t have the time to work out how discord works lol. Patreon I do mean to set up a some point though. Thank you very much for the support.
Have you ever considered making alternate history videos? Your understanding of history and in particular the personality and interactions of various rulers would really help you there :)
Great video, I am astounded by your attention to the intricate decision making that sorrounds the conflicts in history. I applaud you for your clarity!
Is there a way to donate? I have not found a patreon or something similar. I would be happy to show my appreciation.
Thank you, it means a lot you’d be prepared to donate. I keep meaning to set a patreon up, hopefully some point soon. Thank you very much.
Great video
Another top quality vid
Excellent work. We Americans need one on the history of the British east India company or the glorious revolution.
Another good video
Thanks for sharing this perspective. After all this, it is amazing that British behavior along with the CIA in 1953 completely screwed up any influence Britain could have over Iran. It has been 70 years since Mossadeh was overthrown.
good job
Excelent video
Awesome analysis about the Great Game! But I don't think the Ottomans would have allowed Russia to get that powerful in Persia either at the time. Persia was just that buffer state everyone wanted in Asia at the time. 🇬🇧🇬🇧
Ah Russia and Persia. Recent events have put that geopolitical area back into focus.
interesting, I never heard of this dispute before
3:19 Curzon was aggressive, Salisbury was more diplomatic. They disagreed over Persia.
3:54 Britain was the paramount power in the Persian Gulf.
7:29 Curzon was apoplectic.
10:16 Conciliation or Confrontation?
What sort of academic background do you have (if any)?
Interested to know as a fan.
I have an MA in history.
such great men, how we need them now
Hi old britannia, just wondering is this your full time work or is this a side project for the moment?
Just a hobby I’m afraid. It’s why my upload schedules a bit all over the place.
Interesting
Could you maybe do a video about Britain's colonisation of Gibraltar and it's defence during the Great Siege?
Nice
I wonder how the Anglo-Soviet Invasion of Persia in the next century fits into this picture
Desperation and effective coalition warfare
Same as Anglo-Russian intervention in Persia during WWI: similar goals make it necessary to drop direct confrontation for a while. Just while at WWII there were only english and soviet troops in Persia (since 1935: Iran), during WWI there were battles within Persian territory berween Russian and Osman armies at Tebris and Pesian Azerbajan (North of Persia). While England took Bushir in 1916 (South of Persia) to battle Osmans in Mesopotamia.
Keep up the good work!
Very good history
Hi OldBritannia. Can I ask, what happened to the German Empire videos? I can't find them on your channel
I’m working on a complete re vamp of that series that will cover Prussia from 1807-1914. I might have taken them down prematurely but honestly I thought they kind of sucked. Bad voice over (not that I’m much better at this now), average graphics, very basic info etc.
@@OldBritannia Thanks for the answer. My recommendation, if it's not already to late is to put them as unlisted, on a playlist called "outdated". They still required lots of work, it would be sad to just discard them, and I think they aren't that bad. I'm sure though, that your new series will be a lot better.
PS. I hope you keep the line about how cynical it was to send Lenin to Russia. That part stuck with me a lot!
As an interesting aside, what if the British had known about all of the oil that lies underneath Persia? Ironically discovered by a British company just a few years later (1908 I believe). Or wasn’t oil such a big deal back then?
Will there be a video on the Russian perspective? Or even the Iranian?
Lord Curzon - Drama Queen of India 👑
Was gonna ask do you have any good book recommendations on the British empire?
Such a big topic it really depends on what you are looking for. As a general study Jan Morris’s Pax Britannica series is very good. The Empire Project by John Darwin also good. Though like all histories, I have my problems with both. Heard good things about Piers Brendon’s Decline and Fall, but haven’t read it myself.
On India, David Gilmour or Tirthankar Roy are excellent.
Foreign policy see Paul Hayes’ two books or Charmley. Brendan Simms’ Three Victories and a Defeat very good on the First Empire.
If there is a specific area you’re interested in I can recommend more specifically if I’ve read around it.
@@OldBritannia thanks for the recommendations will have look into them. It’s quite hard finding sources that aren’t “muh evil racist empire” the best one I’ve read so far is an old book from 1912 by Frank Fox called “The British Empire” but it’s a short and rather basic book.
1:20 While I appreciate your rare correct pronunciation of "accede", I think "concede" would have been a better fit.
How you do your maps?
Just photoshop.
The British and Russian jockeying for land and power in Central Asia and the British and French doing the same in Africa really kill the notion that the First World War was inevitable or that the sides were natural. These diplomatic scuffles could have led to radically different alliance structures during the War.
I don't want to imagine what Russia would have achieved if the revolution of 1917 had not happened.
Where the accent is from ? Is it british ?
you completely forgot goa in the map drawing
Please, make more videos. If you had a Patron account, I'd be willing to pay.
British interest in Madagascar dated back to, I think, 1810 when they began sponsoring The Kingdom of Imerina (later, The K. of Madagascar).
But having offended The French so gravely over Egypt they were inclined to make concessions elsewhere.
I refer those interested to The History of Africa Podcast.
I apologise for going off-topic, but...
What happened to the Rise and Fall of the British Empire videos?
Were you unsatisfied with the quality of the videos?
Yes, the drop in quality for both the German and British Empire series' was just too much for me to keep them up. I'm working on re doing them.
Please can you make one on the realpolitik of Pakistan?
I was hoping that this video was going to be about the Curzon line I.E - the Eastern most frontier of the "new" Poland, post WW1. But this video will more than just "do".
That makes me wonder: how close was British India to becoming a wholly independent country?
Mughal (Hindustan/HinduLand) led by Padshah(Pad means Title & Shah means King/Emperor) =>
Hind's Confederacy (Hindavi Swaraj) governed by Maratha Peshwa(PM) chosen by Council & Titular Ruler Mughal(along with Mughal semi independent states) kept by Maratha at the thrown of Delhi =>
British East India company(Company Raj) as Governor General of India, (Peshwa(PM) ship scrapped), Mughal Padshah kept as Titular ruler =>
Mughal Padshah rebelled for Sovereignty of Hindustan , Unknown but extremely humongous amount of people died(most censored year of British Rule), Mutiny stopped & British East India company forced to give India under Crown Rule(British Raj) & Mughal Padshah exiled & trialled, Victoria claims herself as Empress of India
10:30 in the end it took the collapse of both Ottoman and Russian power for Reza Shah to achieve just this.
Old Britannia being great AF as always ;)
Babe wake up new OldBritanniaposting just dropped
Here Balochistan become sacrificed by powers ...
Balochistan should not be neglected...
A free and independent Balochistan is a key element for peace and prosperity and development of Middle East and Central Asia and Indian Sub Continent ...
Baloch has occupied half of Sindh & all of Brahvi region.
Is your accent Liverpool?
Blocked and reported for hate speech.
But seriously - Lancashire 😂
@@OldBritannia Wisconsin USA
I had no idea Jamie Tartt knew so much abou timperial histreh
"My name is George Nathaniel Curzon,
I am a most superior person.
My face is pink, my hair is sleek,
I dine at Blenheim once a week"
I understand that the British had lots of influence/intrests in the Perisan gulf. What I don't understand is why. Why was the Gulf so important for Britain and India in particular.
Trade mainly. But the influence control gains you over the surrounding states was also important.
It was to protect the British raj but slowly became its own entity
Still a better way of handling it than the American way xdddd
Maybe the waning Russian Influence in Persia might also have to do with the fact that Nicholas 2 was crowned as the Tsae of Russia in 1894.
As we all know he wasn't really dedicated to anything.
PS calling these colonial "statesmen" Anglo Indians is very wrong and offensive. Men like Curzon came to India, looted the country sophistically and left after retirement to get back to the British Isles.
The real Anglo Indians were those white people who stayed on here and became one of us like Annie Besant.
She came here worked here and died here. She fought for democracy and home rule in India.
Calling people like Curzon Anglo Indians is bullshit ultra max pro
Great video! It almost seems like the British Empire was a success in spite of its self. It sometimes feels like the British politicians never quite had the the best interests of the Empire at heart. Like fighting the Boers only to hand over governance of the entirety of south Africa to them a few years later. Or fighting Germany to maintain her naval dominance, only to hand it to the US a few years later. The most natural strategy for the long term survival of the Empire, would perhaps have been maintaining the Anglo - Prussian alliance.
Britain has always been negligent towards the Empire as it was not something planned. British saw it as something transitional, not meant to last forever. There was no masterplan. It was just a collection of territories brought to London supervisions for the most diverse reasons. And as soon as Britain stopped to be the centre of the world trade and finance, the empire just evaporated.
The fact that someone could mistake an alliance with a would-be continental hegemon for an equal partnership in which Britain, the sea power, could have the full dignities of an independent nation and not a glorified vassalage, is a damning indictment of the public schooling system.
@@hashkangaroo British obsession with the "balance of power" on the continent is something accepted as a perfect reasonable policy and hardly ever is questioned by English-speaking historians. To me it's not clear why Britain needed to always fight the strongest power in Europe for centuries and centuries. It's a strange obsession and it seems more harmful than profitable.
@@johnbullxx Ask Japan why it fears China and you shall see why Britain would fear all of Europe uniting against it under a German flag, with all industrial competitors either neutered or puppeted. Under those circumstances, Britain would have no choice but surrender its status as an independent nation and resign itself to taking orders from a foreign capital, like some lowly colony.
If you think Britain's colonial possessions somehow balance out this unequal relationship, I'll be waiting for your descriptions of British factories and shipyards in Africa.
@@johnbullxx What's your critique though? Since becoming a Protestant state, Britain faced powerful enemies which if united or subjugated under a hegemon, could threaten the Kingdom. The Spanish Armada came close to invading and deposing the Protestant monarchy. Napoleon's brief domination of most of Europe was obviously an existential threat. As in this video, the Crimean war was about limiting the power, and naval access, of a growing rival. Britain didn't get involved in the Franco-Prussian war because the sides seemed evenly matched (at least at first). Seeing France weakened and Germany now united, Britain joined the triple entente. How would a Europe united under Bourbon Kings, Catholic France, Napoleonic republicans, or a re-established Holy Roman Empire centred on Prussia have been beneficial to Britain?