SOLVED: High Pitched Buzzing Noise / USB Audio Mixer Ground Loop Issues
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- čas přidán 21. 06. 2021
- Have you ever tried to plug in a few different audio sources together and gotten a nasty high-pitched buzzing / squealing sound? In today's video I tackle the issue and wrestle it to the ground.
Hopefully some of my techniques can be helpful to you too! Was this video helpful? Unhelpful? Let me know in the comments!
As promised, here are the links to the items I used to solve my problem:
- Radial Pro D2 Stereo Direct Box - www.radialeng.com/product/prod2
- Sescom IL-19 Extreme Hum Fighter - www.sescom.com/products/view/...
- iFi iDefender+ USB Ground Loop Breaker - ifi-audio.com/products/idefen...
Here are some of the other devices prominently featured in my setup:
- Zoom LiveTrak L-12 Digital Audio Mixer and USB Audio Interface - zoomcorp.com/en/us/digital-mi...
- Blackmagic Design ATEM Mini Pro HDMI Video Switching and RTMP Streaming - www.blackmagicdesign.com/prod...
As I discuss in the video, I ran into a series of issues with ground hum, USB and HDMI bus noise, and general buzzing / squealing which was ruining my audio signal quality and generally making me grumpy. After doing a ton of research, I determined that the issue was being caused by a variety of ground loops between my different PCs, my laptop, as well as the ATEM and the audio mixer. I was glad to finally find a solution, and I hope my solution can help you too!
You're the only one that's explained this problem correctly. Thanks for making the video and sharing.
After 2 hrs of watching ground loop videos, yours put all the pieces together with a visual concept and examples of the issues including what they sound like. The case study method was also very helpful as it shows how one goes about troubleshooting. It is very helpful to see examples of when you think you found the problem but discover you didn’t and why. Understanding the grounding bubble for the mixer was the “aha” moment for me helping to focus the ground loop search. Thank you!
wow what an analysis!
and that reverse running of the direct box is a pure genius.
Oh man, you did a great job explaining things in a way that even simpletons like me can understand and your whiteboarding skills/diagram are fantastic. I'm so happy you made this video!
After browsing YT for a couple hours I finally found a good video that explains ground loops and shows the thinking process of ground loop troubleshooting in a simple way that anyone could understand. Not forgetting about the delivery of the video that keeps a steady flow and just makes these 35:55 minutes enjoyable.
Kudos to you
I cannot begin to explain how helpful this video has been to me. Well done for such an excellent and well explained set of experiments.
Although I'm experiencing a different kind of (intermittent) noise, bumping into this video has given some awareness and understanding. Thank you for making this video!
Huge thanks Alex. Watching you sort this out motivated me to get to work and finally sort out my own noise issues. I also have a Zoom mixer (R24), and it was painful how much noise came through the speakers when ever the USB cable was connected. Luckily for me, the only thing I had to do was insert a stereo transformer with lifted earth on my Casio CDP-120 audio connection. This device is also connected to the computer via USB, and similar to your case, created an earth loop. Previously, I tried the earth isolation transformer between the mixer and the amp, but of course this did not fix it! Thanks to your video I persevered. It made me realize that the only equipment setup that would NOT have a problem would be the simplest configuration of guitar(s) and mics i.e. no other devices with a USB or power ground.
Just as an extra thought worth mentioning is the subject of midi. Back in the 1980's when the engineers developed midi, they considered as a primary problem the subject of earth loops. To circumvent the problem, they made sure all connections were isolated with optocouplers. The same consideration has not been given to the use of USB and audio devices. I could imagine some engineers these days slapping their foreheads over the egregious lack of consideration for what is a major problem.
I've been in audio engineering for over 30 years, and I found your "grounding bubble" to be really insightful, as I had never thought of it that way. Not to mention that I never fathomed the idea of running a DI box in reverse. Brilliant! That's something that I can hear my Sound Tech professor admonishing me for back in the 90's. Lol.
I came here because I'm running sound for our church, and we have an awful ground loop hum that I'm trying to track down. Your video was a great resource to help me visualize and fix the problem. Thank you for that!
BTW, I bookmarked your video, and will be using it as a resource to teach all our sound guys about ground loops.
DI box in reverse - it is passive, so it is logical, but it didn't help me either :/
Thank you sooooooo much, after 20 years finally no buzzing noise. Love from Cz.
Finally an explanation of ground loops I can understand! Thank you! This was really entertaining to watch and it inspired me to go create a bubble!
I can't even begin to thank you enough for this video. I had purchased the IFI Defender+ and it made only a little difference in the noise. I had replaced adequate monitors hoping things would change, ran power into different outlets.. hell I was going to change out the AC outlets themselves. I had tried DI boxes earlier but I had switched the settings to ground instead of lift. That alone made all the difference and it sounds PERFECT. Every musician / streamer who deals with interfaces or mixers should watch this!
Great video. It got me thinking, and I didn't even need to watch to the end. I have a simple, completely unbalanced audio path from my desktop PC to my Denon amp and on to my JBL non-active speakers. Some years ago I reduced the noise coming from the PC by introducing a cheap Digital to Analogue Converter (DAC) and adopting the optical output from the PC instead of the analogue line out. The DAC is powered from a USB port on the PC. Having relocated to a dedicated and much quieter home office/study/studio much of the high-pitch buzzing can be heard once again. So on your advice to "cut" additional connections to 'ground' I simply added a USB power brick which has no ground connection (it's double-insulated instead) to power the DAC instead. Problem solved! A great lesson learned for when I move up to a semi-pro audio interface.
Wow! Thanks for taking your time and breaking things down to the molecular level. well done! very very helpful video!
Hey mate, thank you so much for this. I've been struggling with noise for ages and finally got it mostly sorted. Your explanation was super helpful. I actually solved one HF USB noise by simply re-plugging my USB synths! Still have to solve the guitar pedal loops but at least the mixer bubble is sorted now. Thanks again
THANK YOU! This video just fixed all the sound issues in my setup that I've had for about a month now!
Real nice video going over it. I don't have nearly as complicated as a setup, but you went over a lot of ways to fix ground loop issues.
Glad to see you solved the problem. When you've spent all that money on your craft, you want things to work perfectly, so can relate to the pain endured. I can also picture the scene of trying to explain this problem to some noob in a store and getting a vacant 'WTF are you talking about' stare :D My small set up and issue is below -
1x Macbook, connected to a wall socket powered mixing desk via a USB insert - in that mixing desk I have an XLR condenser mic connected, using another wall socket powered compression unit, connected through an insert on the same channel as the mic. No problems, no ground loop (luckily). The problem began when I tried to do something very simple, which was add a 3.5mm TRS to Dual 1/4" TS cable between the mixing desk and my DSLR camera,, so that the mic runs through the camera (for better lip sync on live stream/conferencing). Instant ground loop and very loud hum and buzz and I couldn't work out why. Now I know why. I'm using my DSLR camera as a webcam, which is also wall socket powered via a dummy continous battery - when connected to the mixer, this means I have two different wall socket powered devices running through it (the compressor and camera) which is obviously causing the ground loop (with the USB connected wall powered Macbook which may or may not be adding fuel to the fire). I've ordered a ' Behringer MICROHD HD400 Hum Destroyer' and will expect that this will work, when connected between the camera and mixing desk. Fingers crossed.
This is the best video on ground loops I have ever seen, this helped me rethink the issue from the ground up (no pun intended) and I ended up discovering that a single usb connection was causing the loop. I kept thinking it was my mixer/instruments around it. Thankfully the USB connection is to power my Zoom H5, which can alternatively be powered with a USB power bank/batteries separate from my surge protector everything goes into. Seriously thank you SO much for this video.
what a LEGEND Thanks Alex ,I literally found you on the second day of trying to figure it out by myself
This video deserves much more views. I know it helped me, at least to identify the issues better, Thanks!
I’m so glad this was helpful! I’m definitely encouraged to hear that.
Thank you so much for posting this! I run everything into a studio mixer (a bit overkill) though like having access to additional preamps, effects, and equalization. That goes into a flexible interface and, for years, I've not had many issues. Until the today I noticed that high pitched noise. I checked signal flow and because I only use headphones I knew some of the optoins you mentioned may not work. That said your diagram helped me get it - I plugged the mixer into another outlet and things seem fixed. I needed to see "why" the mixer was introducing the high pitched noise and while I still need to do some other maintainance I appreciate you making this video and breaking it down for us! It's so frustrating when you have ideas and "can't" get clean sounds though I believe I'm clear now: thank you.
I feel your pain!! I've had similar issues, and followed a similar thought path (in my albeit slightly less complex set up). I also probably need a passive DI box that is connected in reverse - as I need to break a ground loop going from my balanced TRS outputs on my audio interface going into unbalanced input on my DSLR. It's good to know that this solved your issue and can be done. All the best, and thanks for explaining it so clearly!!
Really nice video that solves the problem. You've put alot of effort into solving the issue and into explaining it. Keep up the good work.
Nice explanation! I've never seen any where else that shows how to solve the ground loop noise approaching it as a whole system.
I was glad to seea lot of techniques you've shown here are ones that I've been already using.
One thing to add. I use Radial's SB-6 to make a signal from balanced to unbalanced. It is quite versatile. It is better than using a DI box reversed. One more thing that helped me debugging a nasty noise was using a better power adapter. I replaced the usual bundled power adapter with a regulated linear power adapter with matched voltage and the noise level went down like -10db typically. Or IFI's ipower series are SMSP but they are really quiet. If a device is USB bus powered, using ipower with idefender solved issues.
Thanks for such a great video, this is really easy to follow and helped me to understand ground loops and how to fix them.
Glad I found your video mate, so well explained and while I don't yet need all involved here, if there comes a time I will certainly employ your very clever methods and demonstrations. For now I just need to work on removing the buzz, from my guitar and mic leads and my mixer output to speaker. Cheers!
Great lesson! I'm dealing with the 60Hz buzz myself. Thank you.
Amazing!!
What I love and have fully adopted, is to draw my layout, whether in studio or for a proposed gig, on my white board. It just visually helps isolate things.
Thanks for the really engaging ways of resolving this issue.
Thank you thank you thank you! This is when I wish CZcams still had 5 star rating system. 5 stars for you sir, this is a college grade lesson on ground loops and how to fix them. I applaud your dedication and persistence In Figuring out this problem. You have far more.patience and wherewithall than myself
Thanks for this detailed demonstration ! On your very last issue, Mixer Balanced OUT going to ATEM unbalanced IN, there's a common way to proceed : you have 3 wires in your balanced audio cable, on the balanced side the Ground shield goes to pin 1 (if XLR or the longest bit on a stereo jack ), RED goes to pin 2 on XLR (or the tip on a stereo jack) and BLACK goes on pin 3 ( or middle bit on a stereo jack). What you do is connect the ground and black together on the balanced side of the cable, and on the other side on the unbalanced input jack you connect the RED on the tip and the BLACK to the ground part of the jack, and cut the Ground shielding wire so that it's not connected.
That may not work for that purpose, but that's how you go from balanced to unbalanced. That saves a DI box, and you don't have the potential level issues you're mentioning.
Thanks. Are there commercially available cables that offer this design? I use multiple ATEMs in my studio and have the dreaded hum from my Rodecaster Pro.
@@markburke2414 I've always soldered mine, I googled it does exist, but you have to make sure it's that configuration : balanced male XLR to unbalanced male jack (rather than unbalanced XLR where they would leave an empty pin using a 2 wire cable)
Amazing video. Thanks for taking the time to put all of this together!!!
My problem was solved with a ground isolator, a transformer with a 1:1 gain. The case is metal, to avoid parasite signals to enter inside. It works very well. Nice video!!!
Great video, keep them coming I really enjoyed and learned. Cheers!
Fantastic analysis! Very well considered and communicated. Thank you!
Worth every minute ! Awesome video and help.
Great video. I have exactly that issue and had assumed that usb noise was something different to a ground loop. Very helpful. Thanks.
For years with my zoom livetrack 12, when I'd plug a USB cable into it from my PC I would often get a high pitched noise wine... low level but enough to be very annoying. It wouldn't come through in recordings, only through monitors. I tried ferrite beads on the usb cable since I read that could help but they never worked. After watching this video I tried throwing ground loop isolator in-between the mixer and my speaker amplifier and it completely took care of the issue. no noise issues at all! I wish I would have done this years ago. I was about to sell my livetrack 12, now I dontt have to. Thanks for the vid!
Huge amount of knowledge and experience, Mate. Respect. You nailed it. 👍 Thank you!
Amazing video and great explanation. Thanks a lot, Alex!
Great vid alex. I am still chasing some ground loops in my studio, just got one left in the chain! Thanks for the helpful insight!
Thank you! Glad it was helpful! Good luck getting everything working the way you want!
Thank you! We were having a similar issue with our ATEM setup (close layout as yours) at church. I bought similar products on a feeling right before a friend sent me your video. It seemed to match up so I was hopeful. Tried them today at church and yes! the high pitched sound (demonic as you called it... when you said that, I felt you, sir!). I used another brand of USB filter and I did find a 1/8" stereo mini filter for my purposes, but principle should be the same. Thank you so much for this video and I hope it helps others with similar issues!
Great video, this was a lot of help for my home studio.
Thanks for your in-depth explanation
Many many thanks man! Now i understod the ground loop problem and I was able to solve the problem in my audio chain!👍
My issue was not as complex as yours, but CZcams led me here anyway, enjoyed your troubleshooting process! I had a nasty loop when my Maschine MK3 audio interface was plugged into my mixer as well as my USB C interface, both devices unpowered (just bus-powered from the computer). Solved by swapping out each pair of unbalanced TS 1/4 inch output cables going from each interface to the mixer, to balanced TRS 1/4 inch cables.
Awesome video man! Thanks a bunch!
Well done! I feel your pain 😂 You can always try using multiple outlets, this isn't ideal as we'd all like to have everything plugged into the single power board but you can't have everything!
This video was just what I needed, thank you! I fixed the whine in my studio monitors. My only concern now is that my DI box (51x Audio Transformerbox) colours the monitor signal path, albeit in a subtle and somewhat flattering way. I was going to use it for recording, mainly, but after watching this I just had to try it out between the audio interface and monitors. Will live with this setup for a while and see how it goes.
It seems like these setups are always evolving! Glad you found something that is working for the time being!
You can use a Pyle or Morley hum eliminator between your audio device and your monitors without coloration in sound.
Thanks for presenting this so well and sharing it with us. I'm a retired Electrical Engineer and I have my MacBook Pro and a USB DAC and Mackie mixer and powered monitors, a lot more simple than your setup. One USB DAC has high pitched noise, the other doesn't. I just use the USB DAC that doesn't buzz. But, inspired by your efforts, I may dig further into this, if I come up with anything I'll share it with you for sure. Thanks again and NICE work here!
Thank you! Glad to hear from a real EE that I didn’t make too much of a fool of myself, lol. Good luck eliminating the gremlins from your setup!
Thank you so much. This is extremely informative.
Dude, you are a hero. I really related to this.
Great video. Yes indeed a transformer can be used in reverse without any problem. I would just add that it is okay if it is done with a 1:1 transformer (as an isolator should be), but if there is some down step or up step of the voltage, reversing the direction will also inverse that. So it may induce issues with power ratings being exceeded, crazy high voltages..
Best ever explain. Thank you
Excellent presentation, thanks.
Quite informative and entertaining...Thanks!
Hahaha my personal hell, a great opening remark that kept me watching even though my problem is different 😂
OmFg thank you, I finally understand! Everybody tries to be all high and mighty and use verbiage to sound smart but it just confuses me more.
I'm wicked visual and you explained this nicely. Dealing with crazy frequencies in my audio right now and it was driving me bat poop crazy.
Thank you so much! Really helps!
Excellent video thank you for all of the help. This is awesome.
Thank you Alex, for this video. I have the some what of the same problem that you have. I also, have a Zoom L-20 mixer that I use as my interface for my DAW that come out of my mixer in to the ATEM too. I am getting the same sound that you have. I'm going to pick up one these DI-Box and try it out...
So one day you woke up and went to work and noise issue un-ordinarily presented themselves? :/
Glad you got it all sorted. Great video.
Also, those Radial DIs are very nice. I have three with my keyboard rig. :)
Thanks for watching, Cory! I agree, the Radial gear is very nice. Expensive! But nice.
thank you very much for the time you took to explain the process. Definitely one of the best explanation I've seen. Few questions though - is there any other device that could help with ground lifting the USB ? My mixer is connected to ground so not alimented via USB but I still of course get some nasty high pitched sounds (not hum). And I don't live in the US so somehow getting the Ifi isn't easy. Also, which mousepad are you using haha ? I have the same Kensigton mouse and they definitely rock but they also need an appropriate mousepad given the height of the base. Thank you !
I have a USB ground loop noise issue with my boss gt001 effect, the audio is silent but once usb connected to the computer the noise is irritating and kills the recording, recording through my Presonus audio box it is perfect. Do you have or have you found any solutions?
Thank you so much! I watched until 3:15 and you helped me understand from where that noise was coming from. Problem solved!
thank you for the tip!
amazing! Mystery solved!! Thank you!
My solution to this problem years ago when I was streaming with a dual PC setup and a mixer, was to buy two sound cards with Optical outputs and inputs on them, and then route them through a optical to RCA stereo converter to the mixer. I just did it in reverse to route the outbound signal from the mixer to the receiving PC.
Pain in the butt but it did work. I didn't even realize I was dealing with a ground loop problem, just had a feeling that digital audio to analogue audio conversion would fix the issue.
A very common way to solve this problem is with two to three-pronged adapters. But as you point out, this comes with dangers.
Having an issue modifying a church sound system and the direct box or the IFI unfortunately may be the fix. Organist aged out and now all music played from computer, trying to take the speaker out on laptop to the mixer and then a mixer output back to the laptop thru USB Creative Labs Sound Blaster Play! 3. After plug in the USB get low moaning sound. Right now the speakers and microphones go into/out of an amp that the mixer was also fed into --- like I said modify - taking the amp, cd player and cassette deck out of the system. Once speaker and microphone plugs arrive making switch to just mixer. Thanks for thorough explanation.
What products would you recommend? Trying to record an electric guitar i have lots of noise. To minimize it i have to find a certain position, i have to face away from computer, hold a guitar in unnatural position (not even 90 degrees, more like 100-110 degrees), any deviation and...noise like in 1:40 in my headphones (monitors off, of course).
It is either with single-coiled pickups or humbuckers (the first ones, obviously, worse).
The StudioOne shows quite a high level of noise on a recording channel /quite hearable -33 to -44dB/ even with no sound coming through (when i don't produce sounds on guitar and/or when guitar is in "safe from noise" area).
I am thinking about getting Electro-Harmonix Hum Debugger pedal... (?)
That's the main question.
Also...
~ I have too much noise when i turn the mix (comp/in) knob towards instrument (1) and a very little headroom for recording, either the signal is too weak or, after moving the gain knob just one little degree, i get distortion, noise and clipping (2). It is either with single-coiled pickups or humbuckers (the first ones, obviously, worse). PreSonus iTwo has a very little headroom, but i suspect that this is not the sole cause: maybe by increasing the gain i increase the noise (interface limitations+ground loop).
(1) - waiting for a new interface Topping E2x2 (could/can't record anything with PreSonus iTwo or, recently, SSL2...SSL2 supposed to have a very low noise, but in my case (? why) i had even more noise...returned it while i could).
(2) - waiting for a new interface and a ground loop breaker usb power injector for the interface C-port (at 11:18 i knew where you are going at ;) ).
For recording with a physical amp (Katana) i 'dream' to get a Morley Humno Noise Eliminator.
DI boxes (active and passive) seems like do nothing in my case (or make things worse): Behringer active DI20 gave lots of noise; DI Dolamo a bit Increases the noise compared to direct connection (TRS a bit more compared to XLR), but in nut-shell, it does not decrease the noise.
Don't have any Gate pedal and not planning because it is tricky and i hardly play heavy music.
In recorded track the noise is increasing in quiet intervals.
I have a power conditioner Furman m8x, everything is connected there and it goes to one outlet.
No noise-cancelling devices for pc or USB ports or 9V supply.
All my guitars are in tact (grounded and shielded).
The lights: no lights, some lights, big lights - not much difference.
Some of my USB ports are kind finicky (but i have only one C-port for interface).
That's about it.
Thank you, Alex
amazing video
this is super helpful and informative. I just bought a usb measurement mic to do room corrections on my speakers, but I am getting a terrible digital whine sound on the recordings. I tried with two different desktop PC's with the same result. I thought it could be a ground loop issue but I still got the same noise even when I connected it to a laptop on battery power.. I have heard perhaps a powered usb hub could solve it? any ideas?
Thank you Thank you! This video helped me so much even in 2024
Great job! I had this kind of problem with my guitar getting 200/500 hz noise, coming from the computer.... I've attenuated it quite alot, but not 100%
EDITED: I had a long term issue with digital whine/screeching and stuttering noise on my MAudio Air 192|4 audio interface that I originally thought might be interference from the PC it sat on top of because moving the mouse would change the pitch of whine. This sound was very slightly noticeable on my studio speakers (1/4" balanced TSR cables) but very noticeable on the 1/4" headphone jack. While troubleshooting, I unplugged the speakers and the noise went away on the headphones, so it was the powered speakers introducing the loop. I bought a similar direct box with 2 channels and put it between my speakers and the audio interface. No more noise on the speakers or the headphones!
Running all your gear from the one power plug fixed this too. Not possible on your setup but I did it and it solves it also
Hahaha nah I love this, this helped me feel less ridiculous than I thought. That this isn't a simple problem with a simple answer and is actually a complicated matter. The weirdest thing about my issue is that my arturia 49 would cause feed back snores when going into power saving mode. So if I tab a key, the noise dissapears. But the noise doesn't occur when I unplug the midi DIN to midi din hub cable. This noise drove me crazy for so long cuz it would come and go and made me think I solved the noise issue then sudden it would.appear even while I wasn't doing anything to disturb it. And I would start pulling things out and moving them around trying to find the problem.
But I have so many prices of gear its crazy..... But at least I won't get anymore gear so I don't have to worry too much
Thank you, for this video though. Bug fixing is a major part of our growth
More questions/problems.
* Opening a project i got message that 970 files are missing. With Search i found some missing files, it became 270, and these can't be found anywhere (i've searched all folders /sub..sub_subs/ in my big folder dedicated only for StudioOne, all back up /mirror/ folders on 2 external drives). It is an old and very extensive 'precious to me' project, and ridiculous thing is, for example there is a guitar solo, i splat it at some points to get rid of some noise when i was not playing, now the solo is there only in pieces; all channels are ripped off here and there. Plus other issues.
* Yes, as a rule i have a 25 minutes save; "use cached plug-in data on save"; "ask to copy external files when saving document" all on/checked.
* I didn't change nor names, nor locations of working folders and files (though i have this project saved under different names as versions).
* What i did is: i replayed some important stuff on left-overs and added two old stereo mix tracks of this project/song with different EQ settings (and with mistakes, quite unbalanced, but it is better something than nothing, there is no way i'd re-do everything due to circumstances and unrepeatable settings and instruments). I aligned everything nicely (time, buses, volume,..), corrected, blended everything nicely, and put vocals at the right level (up and with different settings, that's why mainly came back to this project), clicked "save". Logically, the DAW asked me "do i want to add these two stereo tracks/files", obviously, i clicked "yes" and...1475 files for each added stereo track started copying. In panic i pressed "cancel", but it was too late. Where these files are from, why?! Why these stereo tracks came with so many files? Where they went to?
I checked the media folder to look for duplicates: no duplicates, but there are about 6000 files there (and some of them are not from this project).
* But this is not all: i had plenty enough of memory space (workable 450-500GB free), now i am in the end of red zone with 78GB left. Agh..
* But this is not all again: i started clearing up the space on pc and the more i delete or move ...the lesser space i get on computer...now it is 50GB.
* To free space and continue working (without interruptions and CPU overload) i thought that i would mirror the path, create the same folders in external drive, link the project to media files there, But i am afraid to make things worse in this and other projects (especially considering that freeing the space now works for me the opposite way).
* What is wrong? How can i fix all that mess?
Finally! A video showing my problem LOL! But hey... I just want to plug my guitar to my pc and listen with headphones... Should I buy all the gear you are showing or just one of them?
Im getting the same noise but im using a condenser mic into a laptop. Could the power source for my preamp that is plugged into my outlet and to my laptop be getting a loop through the charger that is also plugged into the outlet and into my computer?
Hello Im plugging my condenser mic to my power supply and the connecting the power supply to my pc and same thing is happening and when I move the mouse there’s a noise that shows how can I fix it
I'm using Allen Heath ZED 16fx mixer as an audio interface, USB cable to desktop computer and Reaper as DAW. When I arm a track for recording I hear high pitched (about 1.1kHz) whining sound which peaks up to -60db. I think it has something to do with USB ground loop, but strange thing is that if I shut off the mixer or even unplug the mains cable from wall socket the sound still remains. If I after all unplug USB cable from mixer the sound vanishes. I'm a bit confused what causes this irritating sound....
Great video. Alex, have you wondered how this ground lifting works inside the ProD2 box? Perhaps its simple and you don't need to buy a box like this. Interesting topic 👏
how would you bypass ground your pc? i have issue of my mic feed has massive buzzing and i think its coming from PC entirely because i hear buzzing even if my mic is muted or unplugged.
Thank you
thank you!!!
The IfI defender is working like this - From your USB out / in , it convert the data signal to optical signal and
transmit through an optocoupler the data as light , In the optocoupler there is a light sensor that is used to convert the
light back to electrical data signal and through a buffer is send to the Out / in at the other USB port .
That way thee is NO physical wire and thus NO electrical ground between the two devices at all .
This is also why it need an external powersupply and that need to be ground liftet so to NOT just introduce another
ground path .
Note that I write Out / in that is because the USB or if use firewire is Bidirectional so signal flow both ways .
Those iFI defenders work extremely good and it really doesnt matter what brand you use or the actual quality
( as long as its not really bad ) because it will never affect the sound ( it is all digital signal only ) so as long as it
comply with the USB or firewire standard ect then it work just fine.
As for the one that burned , I will say that one was a manufacture defect , typically a voltage regulator that
was shorted out somehow , that normally very rarely happen because those run constant power and not like other
components draw more or less power .
There is ethernet isolators working just like this too and perfect if you have a modem / router / switch / hubs ect
in / on / between your computers , aka network and internet that can further isolate that dam.... sigital noise too .
Same principle using optocouplers .
USB and or PCI power conditioners also working very great .
I have used a PCI ( not PCIE ) card power conditioner inside my computer ( there exist PCIE too )
what they do is offload the digital noise and transients that is on the powerrails in computers with not the best
power controllers / and / or powersupply .
Those can be extremely noisy and sometimes this noise going out in all different ports on the computers .
From onboard soudcard to usb ports ect ect ect and those can actually remove it .
It also make the computer run more stable too because the power is with less spikes and noise .
Many of the more exotic solutions have a specific purpose and wont work equal well in all systems .
It all depend of system and situation and what cause the noise in the end .
I agree that most can look like snake oil , but it is just until you have a specific problem that can only be solved
by an exotic solution .
Noise fighting is really an unfair fight and an extreme art to master .
Great video , im subscribed , keep up good content .
Cheers ..
Ps sorry for typos , im on morning coffe right now .
No. There is no optocoupling circuitry inside idefender.
What they actually do is they switch impedance for power and ground lines. If the current draw is more than 5mA, there will be direct connection for the ground and +5V being transparent effectively. If less than 5mA, the impedance switch is on and there comes high impedance for the ground and +5V. If there is an external power connected to idefender, ground and +5V have high impedance as well. They used high impedance instead of totally lifting, so that the handshake could work.
@@juneaftn Ok , so they do it different than normal USB / Firewire ground isolators , all
the models I have used was using optocouplers and is a great way of totally isolate the signal .
Also using optocouplers is less prone to
failure too .
Thanks for the correction about the IFI .
Honest , I dont really think it will be as eficient as those with optocouplers or safe ,
I just think about the one that burned and
that shouldt be possible unless something
going bad in some regulators and it send
full power through it ( typically caused by
some kind of short , capasitor , you name it)
Thanks for correcting my mistake on this IFI
I simply thought it work like all the other
ones I have seen through past 20 + years .
I think I will stick with the good old based on
optocouplers so to get 100 percent electrical isolation , it is much safer for the
connected devices .
Just another little thing , thanks for the tip
about connect the DI box the opposite way ,
that works GREAT and I simply dont know why I didnt think about this because they are bidirectional , well they are fully passive
and connect the other way around , YES
it fully works : )
after pondering a bit further, im pretty certain you can hook up a your atem to another usb isolater or 2 save money, hook up a hub to the usb isolator you have and run both you mixer and atem off it. . , once you do that , the only isolater you need should be from audio cable to mixer, since its a connection to the computer, once those 3 pc attached items are isolated , you should be able to disconect all the other isolaters you have including the ones the speakers
From what I read about these devices they use a chip with a limited bandwidth. So some support say 15mbs so USB1 but not all USB 2 and definitely not USB3.
@@stephenhookings1985 essentially it is a some sort of digitial isolater, almost every one i found on the market is limited to usb 1.0 from the year 2000. . so its extremely slow, but IFI claim to support 3.0[ i havent tested this since i dont own one yet , but you can since you own and easy test would be is to do a large file transfer from to a HDD tru that ifi and do the same test with it connected directly to the pc. . notate , usb 2.0 easily carrilies up to a 100 mega bytes a second
Great content and nice delivery! This begs the question.. Since the mixer is the 'hub'... Does a mixer exist that has 'built in' ground lift switches on its inputs?
That's a great question! I'm sure a "real" audio/electrical engineer would have some very smart answer, but as a consumer of audio gear I would totally pay for that feature.
Hey everyone and the creator. The video explains well about the ground loop. I am using wharfedale 1202fx usb mixer. The power supply of the mixer dont have a ground pin. Its only live and neutral. However the output audio on my mixer is giving buzzing sound even when nothing is plugged in. No audio input in any lines or any microphone. Just when i turn on the mixer and put up the master volume i can hear the buzzing either u connect a headphone to the mixer or connect a speaker on the empty mixer i can hear the buzzing very loudly on all audio output ports like main out? headphone out, control out, aux send, all the ports having buzz sound in there on empty mixer. How do i fix this? Is it because my mixer power adapter doesn't have a ground wire or is it something else? How do i fix this please help.
I believe that in my setup I would need the Ifi iDefender but after disabling some USB devices that I was not really using that loud high pitch buzz/noise disappeared.
Jesus, thank you for this.
I was wondering about if you could put the signal in reverse through some of the passive radial boxes, that's great to know. Btw radial do make isolation boxes that turn balanced line signals into unbalanced line signal, the cheaper one is called "Pro Iso" and the one with more expensive jensen transformers is called "J-Iso". I have been wondering about isolating usb also thanks for clarifying some things.
The Pro Iso box looks exactly like what I need - thanks for the recommendation!
Thanks for this! has the second IFI defender burst into flames yet? I would like one but I'm cautious having seen several QC complaints
It has not burst into flames. However, I'm not completely convinced it's functioning in the ground lifting capacity I was originally hoping it would. The noise floor is definitely improved, but it's not perfect. And my multimeter tells me there is a connection (albeit a higher resistance one) between the two sides of the IFI.
At this point I'm thinking about going for a SealSO medical-grade USB Isolator, but I'm not excited about dropping multiple hundreds of dollars on it.
I service and repair amplifiers, receivers, transceivers, power supplies, etc. and this noise is very likely coming from a poorly filtered or particularly noisy switching power supply or PWM LED inverter/driver circuit. What I hear in that noise is 120 hz hum/buzz or possibly an audible sub-harmonic from a switching element that's around that frequency. Cheap switching power supplies and drivers can radiate electrical noise and RF down wires and into the air, and of course, long ground loops can act like an antenna and pickup everything.
I doubt the audio specific gear (powered speakers/mixer, etc) is causing the problem, as they are engineered not to radiate noise or even create it in the first place. It's likely a cheap wallwart switching power supply (like something that would come with a powered USB hub or the video switcher) that's causing the noise or possibly even the PC's power supply.
One cheap way to track down the offender is to buy an inexpensive battery powered AM radio for $10-$20. Turn the radio on, turn up the volume and tune it until you just hear static, and start walking with it around the room and move it near any electronics that could potentially be electrically noisy (wallwart power supplies, RGB LEDs or their power supplies, the PC power supply). AM radios are particularly sensitive to switching power supply noise and harmonics, it will get loud and you'll hear that buzz the second you get near something noisy. I've use this method quite a lot with good success.
THANK YOU!!!!
Have been having ground loop issues for some time now. I have a ground loop isolator on my speaker cables, it didn‘t solve the issue. I bought two wall power socket ground loop killers on Amazon, these didn’t have any effect Solent them back. Just yesterday, I realized that the USB cable from my MacBook to the mixer is the culprit. I am now looking for a „ifi type“ device for that USB connection. I indeed saw the ifi device on a Google search yesterday. After hearing what you reported about your‘s burning up, I’m definitely giving that brand a wide berth. So, am still searching for a solution here. The problem is, the two USB C outputs on my MacBook are so close together, I can’t find anything slim enough that fits. Do you have a solution? Thanks 🙏
Great video, Morley makes a hum eliminator box with 1:1 transformers that could take the place of your DI box's and might be cheaper
Very nice and clear video, with some good solutions presented.
I do have a few questions however.
-1- Am I wright that using a Directbox with groundlift is actually effectively the same as soldering a custom audio-cable with no ground connected at on one side? (appart from the resulting balanced signal)
-And an Isolator is also kind of the same idea... (Although those actually also "cuts" the signal lines) Am I right?
Making an custom cable that way does feel unsafe though? But is that the case, when both sides are still grounded by the powercable?
-2- Another, I think stupid and 'unsave question' (so not an advise to anyone!!): I do understand that it is not a good ideal to bypass the "ground-pin" on powercabels as discussed in the coments and in the vid, there is a serious good reason those equipment need this grounding. However technically when I think it through I tend to believe that as long as those (lets say) speakers are connected (and grounded) through the audio kabel with a mixer, wich is properly grounded there shouldn't be a problem. Can anyone explain to me where I'm going wrong here, cause I do have learned it is a bad idea, but I don't know exactly why...
BAD IDEA (see my own response)!!
Clear is that using those IL-19 between a mixer and speakers is a more obvious and safer way to hook things up.
My last question is however, do they alter the sound? I read a lot of mixed reviews on the audio quality of 'Ground Loop Isolators'.
Thanks again for the great video!!!
Okay I figured out question 2.
The "Power ground pin/wire" is often used to trigger 'safety fuses' and other safety elements. When this ground is 'cut' these safety measurments are Bypassed. So no matter whether the grounded audio kabel will or will not provide a ground, the device will not shut itself down when needed, so this is indeed a very bad idea. Something someone should never ever do.... Now I DO know why this is called a recepy for disaster. (fire/electrocution) To be honnest I'm a bit confused why they still sell those 'groundlift plug' adapters ??????
Great questions! I will answer your questions to the best of my ability:
1. The proper way to ground lift between the two sides is to use an isolation transformer, so there is NO direct electrical connection between the two sides -- even on the "hot" signal sides. The quality of the signal passing through the isolation transformer will directly correlate with the quality of the transformer. Very good ones will be as close to a "flat" EQ response as possible, whereas bad ones can introduce signal loss that affects the quality of the audio.
2. Regarding grounding through audio cable shielding, you never want to do that because the gauge of the audio cable's shield is way too high. Just take a look at high voltage electrical cabling and notice how thick it is compared to the shield of your audio cable.
Since the audio and data cables are way too thin to sync 120+ Volts to ground, in the event of a short the audio and data cables will just get really hot (possibly setting a fire) and the current will try to sync in alternative directions, potentially hurting someone.
Hope that makes sense! Thanks for watching and good luck solving your ground loop issues!