Shruti And Smriti Shastra on People With or Without Varna | Dr. Kundan Singh & Rahul Dewan|
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- čas přidán 31. 05. 2024
- Binaries, a product of the steep Western social hierarchy system, also gave rise to the concept of the oppressor-oppressed model in the guise of equality, within the societal system of thought. But in Indian culture, Yoga philosophy holds significant importance, which transcends binaries, shedding light on the traditional understanding of the three qualities of nature and their influence on individual nature. Yet, beyond binaries, the complexity of the caste system's origin, societal discrimination, and untouchability necessitates a nuanced understanding. What is the Varna system? To understand it, we need to understand the epistemology & methodology of Indian Culture.
Why categorisation of the society is important? It is a Natural Outcome. In our culture, the highest virtue is the pursuit of the ultimate knowledge, 'Brahmagyan'. Before Kaliyuga, when things were more in contact with the intuitive reality, Varna was a quality that manifests out of the proportion of the three Guna; Sattva, Rajas, and Tamas. But in Kaliyuga, Varna becomes characterised by occupation, yet still, there are corruptions in the 'Shruti' shastras like "Manu Smriti". Exploring concepts like Guna, Karma, Varna, and the Varnashrama system offers insight into societal structures and the intricacies of societal relationships, including discussions on marriage practices and societal outcasts.
About The Speaker:
Dr. Kundan Singh is a scholar-practitioner of Integral Yoga and the Darshana of the Mother and Sri Aurobindo, he has taught in the areas of Integral Philosophy and Psychology, Contemporary and Traditional Vedanta, Theravada and Mahayana Buddhism, Postmodern Philosophy, Philosophy of Science and Epistemology, Critical Thought and Deconstruction, Postcolonial Studies and Psychology, Cultural and Cross-cultural Psychology, Indian Psychology, Yogic Psychology, and Transpersonal Psychology among a few others. He has co-authored a book with Krishna Maheshwari titled Making Children Hindu Phobic: A Critical Review of McGraw Hill’s World History Textbooks (2018) and written another work titled The Evolution of Integral Yoga: Sri Aurobindo, Sri Ramakrishna, and Swami Vivekananda (2008). He has also published several papers and book chapters on psychology, science, relativism, Indian psychology, and post-modernism.
Rahul Dewan is an entrepreneur, angel investor, open-source software evangelist, and the founder and CEO of Srijan Technologies, an *18-year-old enterprise web content management consulting and development company with offices in New Delhi, Gurgaon, Goa, Bangalore, and San Francisco. Srijan excels in building products for online businesses using Drupal as the core technology. He is a writer, blogger, social activist, and a Sadhaka, who has devoted his life as a soldier to the cause of Bhartiya cultural revival, literally by all means. One of these ventures is Sarayu Trust, where we strive to reclaim our cultural heritage.
Topics Covered:
0:00:00 Pre-Kaliyuga Determinant of Varna
0:01:12 Introduction
0:03:12 Inception of the ideological Inclination
0:04:58 Dilemma With The Perception of The Varna Byabastha
0:09:36 Shri Aurobindo’s Yogic Darshan
0:11:12 Samkhya Philosophy And the Concept of Varna
0:18:27 How is Varna Determined?
0:20:42 Concept of Varna Depends on Yuga
0:21:08 Gautam Dharmasutra: Earliest Book on Varna
0:21:39 How to Determine Verna in The Kaliyuga?
0:23:02 Confusion Emerged Out of Lack of Knowledge
0:25:55 Clearing The Confusion
0:28:41 Confusion to Recognise Brahma Gyani: Trigunateet Doesn’t Require Jaati
0:37:44 Why Varna Categorisation is Important?
0:42:20 Categorisation is a Natural Outcome
0:47:51 Understanding Tamas
0:49:58 Varnashrama is Important to Drive Society Properly
0:55:56 A Personal Experience: Following Your Inner Inclinations
0:58:51 How Did Varna Become Hereditary: An Analysis
1:04:04 Choosing Profession Irrespective of Varna is Not Dexterous
1:07:17 Examples of Flexibility of Choosing Varna: Forming of Jaatis in The Time of Crisis
1:12:01 Four Hierarchies
1:14:21 Examples of Transition Between Varna
1:16:59 The Introduction of Hierarchy and Utilitarian Ideology of the West
1:21:57 Transcendence of Dualities And Dichotomies in Indian Society
1:26:50 Anulom & Pratilom Vivah
1:29:09 People Outside Varna: Progenies of Pratilom Vivah
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0:03:14 *डॉ. कुंदन सिंह
Jai shri ram 🕉️
Love the explanations of the 4 different hierarchies. Varna looks like it is descriptive not prescriptive. So did the kayak system e evolve as a defence mechanism over time to preserve skills? Can Jamari be translated as a professional association or guild? Like we would have an association of engineers or architects or electricians? Would love to see a panel discussion with Kundan Singh, Ami Ganatra and Kushal Mehta.
Shruthi Vakyam - Veda - is not descriptive it is prescription based but the prescription is like a doctor's handwriting not easy to understand. The greatness of Vedic Vakyam is it is not biased like other scriptures where there are possibilities of biased opinions. So, even though Sruthi is prescriptive - there is no mandatory punishment if not followed - it is given for our good and the betterment and ultimate Moksha.
And the famous Chatur Varna, that always gets into the controversy, is part of all 4 Vedas, explained poetically in the Purusha Suktam.
There is no hierarchy actually in the Varna. It is just the classification for the Samsara to flourish successfully without conflicts and at the same time in synchronisation with the natural laws.
That was done in the gurikul system
❤❤❤
Yes i agree with thid
Yes true
We need many series on this topic .Please tell about purush sukta.
Sure!
❤
Kya
Darshan Shastra ( Philosophy )
history ka bada sabut sabit ho sakata hai ?
😮
Adya Shankaracharya ne
Buddhist Darshan Shastra ( Philosophy ) ko kis muddho per galat sabit kiya hai ?
😮
We expect discussions on above subjects .
🙏
Bilkul!
If our rootsare strong idealism does not change
I agree
Look into Mahabharata, Shukra Niti and Upanishads, Varna is fluid and look at other Upanishads and dharmashastras where Varna is rigid.
Thank you
1:34:15 -- To clarify, Karn ke sath jo hua wo koi physical sense mein "untouchability" nahi thi, he was basically discriminated against since he came from a pratilom "Suta" family. All pratilom marriage progeny were penalized in some form to discourage such marriages in the society.
Chandalon ke sath physical untouchability practice hoti hogi, purely for health reasons because of their occupation (disposing off corpses). It would be wrong to say that all pratilom progeny were by definition subjected to "untouchability". This kind of narrative presents a very distorted picture of ancient Indian society to the modern Indians and beyond India as well
@bharat7917! In the dharmashastra tradition, the progenies of pratiloma marriages were "asprishya." It is very clearly mentioned. In fact, even the people who engaged in a social discourse with the "asprishyas" were also turned into "asprishyas." From the dharmashastra perspective, sutas were "asprishya." But you see, traditions keep changing. We will need to look for social regulations very carefully in the Mahabharata times, and it is better not to transpose the dharamshastra tradition onto the Mahabharata tradition because there is a gap of few centuries chronologically between the two. This was the reason I was reluctant to discuss the Mahabharata from the dharamashastra perspective.
Yes truue heriditory not necesscery
Yes, that is what is the spiritual understanding!
Brahman were cursed by maa parvati that they will were poor the story is there which is long to write, here.
Please give me the reference! I will look up the story
Chaathurvarnyam mayaasrushtam guna Karma vibhaagasha.... From where the Guna comes...
From Shakti
@@kundansingh954 as far as I understand, Guna comes from where you were born.. if you r born in a Brahmin family, you r a Brahmin
@@maheshram07not really ,just because one is born in Brahmin family doesn't mean he will be Brahmin,
@@kevv7921 how many Brahmins we have who is born in another caste...
@maheshram07! Guna is what you are born with! It is the predominance of one that determines your swabhava that determines your varna! It is not necessary that you will take the predominant Guna of your parents. Every entity has all the gunas. The predominance of one determines the varna!
Thata what shukracharya did
I wish this was in English.
I tried sharing the link of the video with you but it seems that CZcams does not allow the sharing of url links. Therefore I am giving you the title of the video which will help you in the search. Here it is: "Colonial Discourse and Varna." It is available on Sangam Talks CZcams channel only. Let me know if you have been able to find the video. Similar contents are in English in this video.
In Kali Yuga Shri Adi Sankaracharya, Shri Ramanujachary, Shri Madhvacharya were born and just because of such great gyaani's our traditions where saved till date and none of them say Varna is not by birth rather all their bashyas on BG stands by the Karma theory that is determined at birth itself. Whether it hereditary can be challenging but the determination is decided on birth by those great Acharya and the intro. itself is following the more widely spread wrong narrative that it is just the karm that will determine the Varna. The funny part is, if you define karm as work then what is the difference between action and work? What is the attitude and action - which drives the action - what actions can change and what can't change from birth to death, exceptions prove the rules and just because one Vishwamitra is there not everyone can be like him, and even in that case the ithihasa and purana tells that it was actually decided at birth by rishi's blessings to their grandmother and mother.
No where in Mahabharata you will hear Dronacharya being called as a shatriya and just because Krishna or Balarama or for that matter Bhishma taught their special skills to others who came to them as deserved students started to be called brahmin because they were teachers.
I can't believe why this fake narrative is being propagated so widely thinking that it is Varna bedha is the reason for discrimination while it is just the nature that is not based on discrimination rather differences.
Why can't people accept Karma as it is and simply accept the fact that no Varna is a constraint in the first place, and everyone's life karma determines next birth and the birth in a varna of becoming a 🌴🌲 or 🐕 🐈 🐘 or 🕊️ or 👩❤️👨 or Deva or Asura in birth is predetermined and Varna is set at birth. Discrimination is what needs to be fought not the Varna.
Could you please give me specific verses from Adi not recent Shankaracharyas that varna is hereditary? That is birth based?
@@kundansingh954 I can ask the same question ⁉️ can you quote the Adi Sankaracharya BG bashya where he explicitly mentioned it is based on karma and birth is not based on Karma?!
@@kundansingh954 i can quote but let me check if you deserve and are open to accept?! It is not advisable to quote for those who don't want to hear or change their opinions, unfortunately that is the trend nowadays 😞. Giving a hint if you can see in the middle of chapter 3.
@@kundansingh954His bhashya on Brahma Sutras 1.3.34-39. There is one more in chapter 3.
@SangamTalks can ask original Sanskrit scholars not the sudo current school literate Sanskrit fellows rather who have some real basics on Guru parampara and how they say that whether Varna is determined by birth or Karma - remember Birth alone will not qualify to make a person dharmic Karma Yogi. Birth needs to be qualified with Karma to make complete follower of the Dharma. Respect is earned not dictated as in western world - where power dictates one's respect and makes it mandatory.
So, actions/Karma based on, not just nature but also actions onces perform in this current life determines the results outcomes for either this janma or the next that can be anything based on the past janmas, current janma and the inclination and efforts to get liberated (Mumukshu), current janma's Varna will not change as it is integrated with the body that is already acquired by the Atma that is anyway not directly affected by any kind of body and it is just a vehicle for the Atma - that is the crux of the BG. I feel pained to see discussions on birth based Varna as discrimination - which it is not, if you don't want to accept karma theory - so be it and Varma will make no sense to such people like the Abrahamic imaginary belief systems. But the reality of nature is so hard to ignore and due to human ignorance or arrogance or biased views it is getting challenged.
Keep going around and around but truth is reality is reality. You can’t hide it..
No i do not believe that heriditory completelyi believe that our karmas are main bec that even dictes our graha situation at birth.
What about them they make their dharam to suit their convinience
Third gen it could change it is mentioed our shastras
Yes, it varies from sutra to sutra and Shastra to shastra
If gender comes by birth, why not varna??
Because they both are different. You can change your occupation but can you change Your gender ? ( leave LGBTQ+ as exception )
So if ur father was a labourer u have to be one too?
What kind of bullshit is that?
@@mokshit7620,Study varna vyavastha carefully, don't make criticisms without any knowledge.
@@chandaan25, Pls tell me on what basis a jiva is given female body at birth??
@@achyuthcn2555 And what is that ?
Can you make a podcast in English? Otherwise most of your major uploads are not available for the majority of the world.
Please look me on this channel itself. All my talks are in English. There are two on this topic
Learn Hindi
@@ArjunSharma-zk4yy Nope, if the channel wants global audience it must be at least partially in English.
@woolee9936 did you find my videos on this topic in English.
@@kundansingh954 Your most interesting topics are not in English, e.g. like what is caste. That's one of the primary tools for "debunking" Hinduism - the "caste" argument.
Miight a modern day example of someone working in a field not aligned with his inner varna be RaGa? 😜
Yes! Absolutely and that is why he looks lost!
Aam pub cannot understand gyan or brhma gyan
Is ki debate science journey se karvao😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Sabko pta hai ki Ram by birth Kshtriya the. Everyone knows Shabri/Shambuk by birth shudra the. Karm se varna tay hota to aaj bhi Sonaar/Bada vyapari/Kirana wala/Pujari koi upper caste nahi hota. Inko bhi pta hai ki Majdoori/naali saaf koi Malhotra/Sharma/Gupta/Rajput/Thakur nahi kar rha hai. 2024 me bhi.
Sabko ye bhi pata hai ki Valmiki Janm se Shudra the aur baad me apne karm ki vjh se Brahman bne. sabko ye bhi pta hai ki Vishwamitra janam se Kshatriya the aur baad me apne Karm se Brahman Bane..Sabko ye bhi pta h ki Chandrgupt Maurya janam se Shudra the aur baad me Karm se Kshatriya Bane..
@@HiddenHistoryofBharat Fir aajkal kya ho gya? Sharma ka beta sharma aur Ahirwar ka beta Ahirwar kyu likhta hai. Har birth ke sath Jaati/dharm option me kyu nahi hai bhai? Tu tere baap ka Dharm/jaati hi le kar ghum rha he ki 12th ke baad kisi ne option diya?
Sahi kha Bhai ye dhoort log hai makkari inke khoon me hai.. isiliye hmesha jaativaad ko bachaate hai Janam ,karam ka naam le k..lekin koyi iske saamne baitha do obc ka Banda saara iska gyaan ki batti bna dega😂😂😂😂😂 dono ganjo ka😂😂😂
By Birth and Hereditary is NOT the same thing.
By birth refers to biological genetic aspect.
Hereditary is social, cultural, legal, etc.
There is NO Varna 'vyavastha'.
Varna as referred to in Rig Veda Purusha Suktam is ONLY for Individuals, not for groups or society, etc.
Each Individual has a certain Varna, ability, talent, etc., that they are born with and also that they develop later in life.
In Bronze Age around 3000 BCE the Maharishis were just trying to understand all the issues they were witnessing around them, Agriculture, Manufacture, Urbanization, etc., and they proposed the Varna classification of Individuals.
Jati is a social system, so it is a 'Vyavastha'.
Intended to be used to manage society, groups, economy, political structure, etc.
In one way it is correct - birth and hereditary are NOT the same. Where is your assumption that Varna is not hereditary? It is the easiest practical way to follow the traditional space. If a person can claim anything as Varma anytime - as it is happening nowadays as a trend - just because one cannot accept the reality one is facing - no one can change this father and mother - irrespective of what they feel or like. The question is what's the problem with Varna - people are assuming that it is discrimination - a carpenter will just do that alone - the reality is - it is not something bad just that people have started to judge based on jobs one do, like how politics is nowadays considered as a dirty peoples field, even though we have candidates like Modi who is a really good example of a good great service minded administrator.
@@AnandRajappan
Chatur Varna is first mentioned in Purusha Suktam of Rig Veda.
This suktam, or any other suktam, of RV does not give any details of Varna being related to society or being hereditary.
ALL subsequent texts only give the opinion of the respective authors at various points in time and not the opinion of the composers of RV.
RV was composed in the Bronze Age, perhaps between 3500 to 2000 BCE, and is based on the Saraswathi Sabhyata. There is no other record of the society at that point in time, no record of hereditary Varna. All ancient literature show Varna change based on actual life / action.
It is clear that Jati started much later, say 500 BCE, and
became hereditary, say after 1 C and endogamy started at this time.
When you refer to Carpenter you are talking about Jati NOT Varna,
there is no Carpenter Varna, so you are confusing Jati with Varna.
There are ONLY 4 Varnas,
but in 1871 in the first modern Census over 2700 Jatis & Upa Jatis were listed.
These Jatis cannot be, and should not be, fitted into the 4 Varnas.
@@DiatomAlgae i am not sure how you assumed Varna mentioned in RV as individual and not society related?! Because in the same Purusha Suktam many other things are mentioned?! Is it individual or society related?! Just tell that first.
Why are you bringing jathi? I never said Varna and Jathi can be used interchangeably, as you are assuming.
Both are independent words giving different meanings. It is not directly related but indirectly related like a person's "head" is Varna and "hands" are Jathi, they both mean different things. Is Jathi determined by birth or profession? I am least concerned about the Jathi definition.
The debate is on Varna alone and you can have your own opinions but RV is not based on biased opinions. I can have an opinion that sun is burning fire while moon is a white gel ;) but it doesn't matter to anyone sensible. Similarly, what did the interpretation given in various Granthams of RV matters. If you can quote from them to establish your POV then it will have substance otherwise it is like shooting in Air, you are free to have whatever you imagine, i can't stop people's hallucination, that too from the comments section.
@@AnandRajappan
Sanatana Dharma is ONLY about Individuals and nature never about society.
Rig Veda to Bhagavat Gita only deal with individuals.
Arthashasthra, Manu Smriti, etc., deal with politics, economics, law, etc., but they are NOT part of Sanatana Dharma or Hindu 'Religion'
India never had a Religion. Dharma is NOT religion.
All laws in India were made by civil government, never based on divine messages.
One of the 10 Commandments is 'Thou shall not steal'
Quran says Rich should not charge Interest on loans.
There is nothing like this in India / Hinduism.
Brahminical / Puranic Hinduism is perhaps the result of negative influence of other 'religions' on India.
You mentioned Carpenter in a discussion about Varna.
Carpenter is a Jati NOT a Varna.
@@DiatomAlgae Sanathan Dharma is emphasizing on individual behaviour, that doesn't mean that the entity for which dharma is defined is at individual level. You are confusing the application level and definition level, dharma is never defined individually, it is applicable at each individual level but defined at a group, family, community, society levels.
When Veda or BG says karma yoga is for the group of individuals who follow karma, similarly if brahmachari dharma is defined it is for that category of family members who are studying - all groups will have individuals.
Yes true