I’m STILL Not Sure How to Feel About Behringer
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- čas přidán 24. 06. 2024
- / robertoblivion
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This is the follow up to my first video on Behringer, addressing and clarifying a few things I missed in that first video
• I’m Not Sure How to Fe...
Chapters
00:00 - Intro
00:42 - Disruptor
10:16 - Kirn, Corksniffer, and Misunderstandings around Antisemitism
27:36 - Loopop
37:24 - Conclusion
I have another channel where I do music with my band @CyberspaceOBlivion
Check it out if you like analog synth music
• Cyberspace O'Blivion -... - Hudba
Really enjoying your essays on this topic
Thank you, that's very kind of you to say! Love your channel btw!
I could care less if they copy other synths. Gucci copy’s Prada. Prada copy’s Louis Vuitton. Ford vs Honda. Happens all the time. Apple vs Sony. Who cares. What I don’t like is behringer has a poor attitude on how they promote their products. And there bad attitude on line. Making controversy does not make a good bed fellow.
Can you make a video about why you have three VHS players? Cheers
Multitrack audio recording? People use to do that in the 90s on S-VHS format.
Thank you for your INTELLIGENT and INFORMED, well-articulated perspective on Antisemitism. It is so comforting in a world where so many uneducated are sharing their "voices" on topics about which they actually know very little.
3:04 People think you have a point here, but I bet for example Moog would still be great in business if they charged realistic prices for their gear, instead of thinking that their crazy customers are willing to pay an absurd amount anyway as long as there is a Moog logo on their equipment. This is simply not how the world works anymore.
facts
We'll see how Behringer fairs when people go back to the DAW. Not only is their hardware trash in many cases (I own plenty of Behringer), but their support, firmware, and software is absolutely atrocious.
Building Moog instrument to the quality they had costs. That is what you pay for.
Moog, built in the US where people got payed decent wage (cost of labour in marketing speak), most other synths, built in SE Asia where people get payed less. Simple formula. Not to mention Moog used high quality parts which...cost more. Simple.
Moog products were assembled in the USA only, all the boards were made in China.@@crysstoll1191
I own Korg, Akai, Arturia and Berhinger. Behringer make synths and modules at a far cheaper price so that I can buy more instruments to produce the sounds I long to develop. How Behringer go about their business is a bit on the nose, but my wallet says I can but more Behringer devices. And lets not forget that a lot of other industries have crumbled because of cheap production copies. It just happens to be the time for the synthesizer industry to feel the pain.
26 minutes in. You nailed it so much... the research, the delivery... wow!
Hipocrisy mainly
@@MrBeen992please elaborate.
@@PWMaarten Behringer DID NOT LIE about Loopop. Loopop only does free gear reviews and THAT IS A FACT. He is defensive whenever I have asked for a CLEAR DISCLAIMER about the gear he reviews. He is unable to clearly say "I GOT THIS GEAR X FOR FREE". He NOW says something like "this was sent to me for review" ...like if he had to return it.
@@MrBeen992 first of, if you want to have a conversation with someone it is better to refrain from using all caps sentences. Second, I hear him say he bought the equipment for a discounted price most of his reviews. I can’t state so factually what is really happening but loopops reaction to Behr is more reasonable then most of Behr’s statements so he gets the benefit of the doubt from me.
@@PWMaarten First, I did not write any sentence "all in caps" as you say. I used caps to emphasize a PART of a sentence. Second, I am talking about Loopop, not about anyone else. Loopop only does free gear reviews. That is a FACT. In fact Loopop himself says so with respect to Behringer. You can look for my post in his Roland Gaia 2 review. He clearly says Behringer has given him free gear which is what Behringer now denies. So apparently Behringer did give free gear to Loopop and now stopped to do so and that is why Loopop is angry.
Thank you for sharing. It's been a very informative journey.
Very well done video on a difficult topic!
Can't say I was expecting a history lesson on antisemitism when starting a video about a synth company, but I also can't say I'm disappointed about it
Good think, here's a medal 🏅
I absolutely agree with your thoughts on these matters.
I was always amused by the accusations of anti-Semitism around the cork sniffer topic. It was however a very petty and immature response by Behringer.
They certainly should make clones of out of production equipment that people want, especially if the original companies refuse to re-issue them, but stealing the designs of currently produced items is obviously wrong.
I own several Behringer synths, (Pro-800, Pro-1, Odyssey, Poly D, RD-6 and RD-8 mkII), and they are great sounding, well constructed and competitively priced.
Hey Robert - a complex topic expertly discussed 👍
Behringer play into the hands of people who think they need classic synths (often one of each) to make music, but don't want or can't invest in the real thing or more (often much more) expensive modern analogues. My advice has always been to buy out of fashion used gear and create your own music with that. Whilst Behringer seems cheap, for very little you can buy Kurzweil K2000's, Yamaha FM synths, classic Samplers, oddball analogues etc etc without having to buy new budget gear. It has the benefit of usually keeping it's value. Each to his own though!
That is true, but, what does that have to do with Behringers' horrible treatment of other music companies?
To me Behringer was making fun of the french and not the jewish with the Kern box. The reality however is that behringer acts like a seven year old when it comes to social media. The BS about reinvesting their profits is silly, you can still claim that and pay out huge bonuses to executives...
3:16 Loads of companies do this....But Behringer has the name.....Who has not at one point for example copied the Moog ladder filter? There you go.
No, no other company i know of has threatened legal action on You Tubers, nor have i seen any company steal that much IP in the musical instrument markat. btw, love the "well, other companies do it too" justification.
Well, copying the ladder filter is one thing - cloning complete (still in production) instruments another one. I would not bother with the cloning, if they'd behave reasonable otherwise. But what was laid out here is on another level of bad behavior.
All those companies used it as part of a larger product full of new ideas from their R&D.
Behringer releases others R&D in full whilst only adding a small part.
Apples and oranges
I can't wait to buy my next Behringer synths!!! Anyone know where I can score a VCR too?
To echo your video title... I'm not sure how I feel about much of this... In regards to Peter Kirn, with all the criticism over the corksniffer pedal, and antisemitic accusations, I was a little surprised to learn he isn't Jewish. Knowing that, while it doesn't diminish the similarity to the original antisemitic image you brought up, I agree with you that it feels more coincidental and unintentional. As for the Lizard People meme, I never even knew it had any connection to antisemitism. I assumed it was an insult comparing a person to a cold blooded non human reptile, rather than a warm blooded caring human being, and therefore not meant to insult any person or specific race at all. If that is also antisemitic, then it feels like we're going down a rabbit hole, where every insult ever uttered is similar to 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon, when much like every actor/movie is related to Kevin Bacon, every unintentional insult is 6 degrees from antisemitism, and therefore, every insult is antisemitic. Also, as you mentioned, you run into many people that will never accept an apology, which is often the fault of that person being too proud, or self righteous, and were likely never interested in the apology, but now feel they can bully the person who offered the apology.
As for Loopop, I'm also not sure how to read his take that a 3 year old video caused him to stop reviewing Behringer products. He reviewed a Behringer 2600 a year or so ago, but surely at the time he had to have heard about the corksniffer pedal fiasco and it didn't stop him then. So it seems odd to have stopped him now.
He's not the only CZcamsr that has posted anti-Behringer comments/videos/tweets and other social media comments against Behringer or stated a refusal to discuss/review their products. There have been many influencers doing the same. Maybe they are all mad/sad that Moog was bought out by InMusic and are lashing out at a company they feel is responsible by selling the Model D clone. Which is the blueprint origin of countless products by countless synth makers over the past 50 plus years.
A few years ago I would have felt differently but I’m seeing the big name brands starting to put their support and quality control on pause, while still trying to charge customers a premium for their name brand.
The trend is a lot about being bought and exploited by private equity. This has a bait and switch effect on their loyal customers.
I see Behringer as a brand that’s gaining steam in value because they are an alternative to this horrible situation that the big names are going through. I don’t think Behringer is a great brand, it’s just gaining appeal because everyone else is becoming 💩.
I have a few Behringer products that work really well and I appreciate the value. I don’t love Behringer but I’m not going to 💩 on them. Their stuff does the job and the quality is on par with anything else. They’re useful to have around.
While I agree that there was no intentionality in the attack on Kirn, I find it baffling that a team can spend hours mocking that up, setting up the lighting, filming it, editing it and putting it out on social media without one person thinking: 'Could this be seen as antisemitic?' Seeing as the Jewish merchant was the first thing that came to my mind when I saw it (and I'm not Jewish).
The attack on journalism is small time, the fact they can steal products from small companies and sell them off cheaply as an economy of scale without the R&D and prototyping should be enough to displace Behringer from the market...
Ulli Behringer styles himself the Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos of the synth community. He took the authoritarian technocrat mentality of Silicon Valley and applied it to making music gear. This is also apparent in the voracious acquisition of niche companies to create a Walmart of music production gear. Like the aforementioned techbros, he displays megalomanic and sociopathic tendencies, possibly even narcissistic given how viciously he has to punch down - using the megaphone of his corporate voice - on any even moderately known personality who criticizes Behringer. Normal people don't do that shit.
It's interesting how passionately his defenders defend him. Evangelist is usually a paid job title in a marketing department, and yet Behringer has managed to turn a significant slice of their customer base into unpaid evangelists. That's quite a coup.
I get that some synth nerds feel a need to defend Behringer when they perceive it as the only way they can acquire a stack of hardware. I don't entirely understand it. It's like having hardware has become a weird status symbol or something, and the more you have of it, the greater this "status". It seems to have very little to do with what that hardware is supposedly for: self-expression and creativity through sound.
There are plenty of options, new and used, for people to accumulate gear and maybe even make music, without supporting by far the biggest bully in the space. A healthier community would exile his ass pronto.
I own 7 Behringer A800 class D amplifiers due to how well they are designed, and perform. FYI -Music Tribe's portfolio includes Behringer, Cool Audio, Midas, Turbosound, TC Electronic and TC-Helicon, Tannoy, Klark Teknik, Lab.gruppen, and Aston Microphones.
Seeing antisemitic symbols where it's not undermines the fight against antisemitism.
When I saw the image in the previous video my mind did immediately see potential antisemitism, but it's pretty clear that it's not intentional.
There is no link in any way besides a vague resemblance in the image to the happy merchant. He's not jewish, it's not about money lending or being part of a shadowy cabal or pork or Israel or anything. And no other element of that video can be linked to any element of antisemitism.
It's a french Pinocchio being elitist.
Dog whistles are meant to be picked up on and linked to a greater message. There is nothing to link it to in either your or their video.
(I even think jokes using dog whistles that subvert that greater message are often fine or even good)
I think an often overlooked part of Behringer in the consumer market is their ProSumer line of product. The X32 and Wing are absolutely disruptive contributions that Behringer have made that are in my opinion unmatched in terms of budget and functionality.
nice vcr stack. gotta have at least 3!!! :)
Good work❤
Thank you ❤
I agree with you that digital is so much better now than it was 10-20 years ago. That’s why you can get such great sounds from Mutable Instruments modules like Plaits and Braids. The thing that I’ve struggled with lately is how good a lot of DAW plugins are. Even Arturia’s own collection has some really great sounding plugins that never break down, stay in tune, and there’s no unwanted noise from the output. It’s making me rethink having an entire room full of analog and digital keyboards and desktop synths. I’m fine with eurorack because it takes up less space and inspires creativity but even that can be emulated on a computer if cost is a concern.
Behringer to me is a good option for someone who just wants to dabble with a synth or two, doesn’t have a lot of money, and likely will never be using the gear for professional music creation. They are mostly reliable and fun to mess around with. It’s like a cheap guitar in a way. It works but if you are a pro you will probably want to go with the real thing since the cost can be justified. I’m not sure how much crossover there is between people who own a real minimoog and also have Behringer synths. Maybe the Neutron or DeepMind, but why would you get copies of the real deal if you have the budget for the originals? Seems to me it’s a different customer for the most part.
I’m good with Behringer. Looking forward to hearing the Neptune 80.
Let's just enjoy it whilst we still have economic freedom and before AI stifles creativity and our ability to earn. We really have never had it better when it comes to music tech.
Thanks for doing this. The lesson on anti-semitism sparked my curiosity and as a result inspired me to go learn more. I learned a lot. I agree that the Peter Kirn thing was not anti-semitism, but that Behringer going after him was absolutely unacceptable. They knew it was a bad play. I run an ad agency in my non-music making hours of the day, and we advise companies like that on social media approach. That was either leadership ego forgetting what happens when a brand looks like a bully, or, a misguided social media team who looks at themselves as “staunch defenders of the brand” and views their job as fighting the naysayers. I’ve seen both over the years, and they both lead to disaster. Here’s the thing… I own Berhringer versions of the Model D, Pro 1, 303, and 909. I love those instruments and never could afford the originals. ( and I’m not a struggling musician just getting started ). Since all of this has happened (and since I learned that they cloned the Keystep, Braids, Mother-32, etc…) I do feel shame. Like I contributed to it. I’ve stopped buying Behringer gear, but I have not sold or destroyed my existing. I have blacked out the Behringer logo on them, so as not to promote them, but still… There has to be a middle ground. A KILLER brand move for them at this point would be to create a public statement on intent… apologizing for the behavior to date, and laying out a “rules of engagement” for themselves, that includes “Only cloning out of production gear that people have begged the original companies to make” “Not targeting any companies under (arbitrary number) 20 Million in annual revenue” a new social media policy that states “We will not speak disparagingly of our critics, while we reserve the right to correct any incorrect facts stated” and “creating a community outreach program to make an advisory panel of reviewers and “influencers” to act as delegates from the social media community at large”. It will take them a long time to change their brand… but they could. They could make a TON of money, while helping people “on the fence” like me no longer feel a tinge of shame when seeing their logo on some of my gear.
Behringer needs you, or someone like you on their PR team (assuming they can also extend the amount of control needed for this to occur properly without the type of interference you mentioned earlier)
If Behringer came out with those statements you suggested and held themselves to those statements, they'd very quickly become everyone's favourite underdog synth company
Thanks for your comment and your insights!
Excellent post man. I agree with you 100%
when they first started & were offering cheap gear like compressors & mixers at silly prices, they was grand. when they started jus ripping off manufacturers & adding nothing new, i was dubious. i was willing to forgive the BOSS pedal rip-off & 're-manufacturing' old gear..
but when they started to rip-off companys like Arturia, i turned. i have 3 bits of their gear (multicom, patchbay & sonic exciter) and as broke as i am, i'm looking to replace them.
when the legal department is bigger than the R&D then you know something is off..
they add nothing new. they jus regurgitate everyone else's work for profit. they don't care about music. they care about margins.
superb video. no malice or 'get them' mentality. jus pure music production journalism. kudos.
when people say "i'm not sure how I feel about..." they should just say "i'm not going to tell you how I feel right now about..." Because we don't care how you "feel" in a philisophical sense, we are just literally wondering how you physically feel about something...
Interesting video. But mutable instruments does still not produce any hardware anymore right? So i reckon the Behringer clones would not harm them financialy?
Your arguments are valid. However, they are also unreasonably nitpicky. You're not alone, but that doesn't mean that it's not best for business. Exclusivity is bad for business. Competition keeps prices more reasonable. That's why the best prices in the open market are clothing, furniture, and electronics. It is also a common practice in every industry to copy what sells. Automobile manufacturers don't reinvent the car. Washing machine and dryer manufacturers don't reinvent washing machines and dryers, nor do refrigerator manufacturers, shoe and clothing makers, food utensil makers, and tool makers don't reinvent the hammer and saw, farmers don't complain that all plows look similar and do the same job, and furniture makers don't change their basic frame construction or use reinvented fabrics. Electronics are cheaper due to competition with the same parts available to all. Most of the innovation that you are referring to was copied from something else. There are no original ideas or concepts.
My only concern as a customer for over 20 years is that I cannot buy Behringer at Zzounds anymore. That irritates me the most as my financing options have been severely limited to using cash or a credit card rather than a convenient payment plan. Behringer makes me excited to purchase at a lower cost and with a few improvements to the original. Behringer is good for the industry they are the Volkswagen of the electronics industry!
So, no need for ethics at all? Bullying, threatening lawsuits, all ok as long as we get our cheap gear.
Great video. Have you ever read Dr. Kevin MacDonald's trilogy on Judaism in the West?
Nice. A very balanced, intelligent and well though out discussion of the enigma that is Behringer. Infinitely better than some other Behringer themed posts with their barely veiled, smug insults to people who have bought Behringer gear.
I've recently been discussing this elsewhere and agree with pretty much everything you say. Especially the whole cork-sniffer fiasco. I'm fairly certain that there was no antisemitism intended, but they left themselves wide open for that. I wonder whether that was even run past their legal department prior to posting. Their PR department certainly needed more oversight - hopefully that has been addressed? Along with the loopop episode, of which I wasn't aware.
I own quite a bit of Behringer gear, along with quite a bit of other manufacturers gear and am very happy with all of it. Sound and quality wise. I do wish that they would stick to making good synths etc. and avoid making either silly childish remarks and copies of current production stuff. The mutable instruments gear, whilst a bit questionable, can't be solely attributable to them though - other manufacturers are equally guilty of the same, as it is all open source. I love MI gear and will support them wherever I can.
And as you say yourself the other big players, with the exception of Korg, seem happy enough to just put out digital recreations of old gear when there has been shown to be a huge market for classic analog recreations.
The Deepmind was their first foray into the synth market and proved to be a great success. The Neutron also showed that they can produce great, original synths. I'm looking forward to seeing the Proton. The first 2 were designed by the Midas team I believe, probably the Proton too, so maybe when they've got the clone bug out of their system we'll get to see a lot more of the same. They don't deserve the level of vitriol they are getting, but do need to address some of the criticism they have brought on themselves.
Cheers mate!
Very interesting and informative video, pretty sure my IQ went up a few points as a result of watching it!... There are very few corporations that have a genuine ethical values-driven culture, at this point, it would take a major restructuring and huge internal self-reflection for Behringer to even approach being considered a benign, positive corporate entity.
If they could drop all the Trumpian political spin of their obvious bad practices and genuinely just seek to make affordable original/ discontinued synths then that would be a start
Trumpian? Yeah I hate peace and prosperity too.......
@@Steph_7d7 Trumpian as in a demonstrable lie seeking to enhance a false image presented to the public that is easily disproven by facts.
I’m glad you made this video. It appears to be well researched, thought out and communicated.
IMO, Uli, deflecting the blame to one of HIS companies departments tells us something about him as a person and boss. He is the CEO so he should’ve taking the responsibility. He has the most power so he should be the protector. Again, IMO.
Great vid er...essay? Covered the points well and you were spot on.
I have a bunch of Behringer gear. The gear is good. Robust enough and fun. I like you though have serious misgivings about their corporate/business behaviour, and subsequent interactions with their customers and critics.
I hate to say this but it seems to be this part of their business is coming directly from Uli himself. It seems to me to be a pretty common denominator with businessmen at that level. People like that, and people in general need to learn that it's okay to be wrong about something and to apologize and move on.
I think your opinions mirror my own on pretty much every count.
The abbreviated history of anti-semitism was very interesting!
And I haven't and don't think I'll be buying any Behringer products for a while.
‘Not sure how to feel’ is wild twice months apart. Seems like an easy internal conflict to reconcile. Attention to behringer feeds all of their worst behavior. They’re also building current production products like Make Noise Maths, Xaoc Belgrad. I don’t think 300 dollar clones of 5,000 dollar synths are splitting markets in any way. It’s the abuse of journalists and bloggers, and all of the disrespect on other companies instead of just doing their thing that irritates me.
Exactly this!
Not sure how to feel is the best way to put it.. i just got my first synthesizer which was the behringer monopoly, and i love it! Currently one of my fav instruments in the studio. But... it is hard to just ignore their petty behavior and lack of respect for their competitors. On one hand it feels like they're intentionally trying to become a monopoly for analog, and want other companies to go out of business, on the other hand it feels like they're the only company that cares more about their consumers than their image.
I always see people making the argument of "no one needs analog, you can get away just fine with entry level digital synthesizers" and no one has mentioned the problem with live music. Maybe the gig i have is unique but i get hired by a singer and he will bring a drummer, and a keyboardist or guitarist, and a mixer. Since a lot of places around here dont want to pay for music, the only way he can play live gigs is using karaoke tracks with the solos removed and have a real drummer and comping instrument. There aren't any set lists for the performances, he just puts up a track of what he feels like singing. Because of that, i cant make digital patches in the verse of a pop song, but i can adjust the parameters of analogs on the fly to quickly get to a sound i need to play a background line. I had. Microkorg before my monopoly, but trying to build new patches in the middle of the song was incredibly difficult. The added bonus of being able to touch all of the knobs in the studio instead of clicking through and automating things makes the workflow way faster as Im forced to stay with the choices i had or completely re-record; a blessing in disguise. Therefore i feel the argument of "amateurs don't deserve analog poly's or nice synths" kinda falls apart. Having active controls of all the parameters is going to lead to creative decisions and not just using a patch that everyone else uses because it sounds cool. So behringer bringing these devices to the entry level market is great!
BUT! Behringer copying the arturia keystep and selling it for the same price makes little to no sense. Ive also heard points of them taking affordable modules and copying them, and thats also not cool... it almost feels like the early days of tesla before people knew how much of a dunce elon was. Every news report that comes in feels like "hooray they're not so bas" followed immediately by "oh... maybe they are" and at some point you have to just take a step back and ask yourself if you want to let the head of the company dictate whether or not you will buy a piece of gear you want. And thats not an easy decision to make morally, sure supporting a "bad company" is bad, but also supporting yourself and making music more accessible so more people can respect what makes the things they listen to on the radio is good.
I just wish Behringer could play a little nicer with other companies and critics, their mission of getting synths into as many hands as they can is such a great thing, I feel music is so disrespected because no one can really just get into it and explore it to a level thats really meaningful. So if more people can discover the joy of music making as a hobby, i feel that more people will respect music as a whole.
This was a rant because I'm killing time and these videos really get me thinking about the large musical landscape we face right now, if you read, thanks, sorry for wasting your time lol
As a kid that recently started their synth obsession, I'm still a bit skeptical about Behringer. I could definitely afford their synths but... It doesn't feel ethical to me to buy their products? I mean, you don't need particular gear to make music, but knowing that Behringer is cloning synths puts me off.
Probably because I'm already a sick obsessive collector who likes authenticity. But I have no reason to indulge into hardware right now anyways, Korg DSN-12 and VCV Rack are working just fine for me right now, give it some time.
I'm still probably never gonna buy Behringer gear anyways
The problem or issue isn't behringer disrupting the what you call 'synth industry' I don't think that actually existed before Behringer. There were a few companies creating electronic musical instruments. It is/was a niche market, although the popularity has increased a bit. Yes, a lot of the gear was relatively expensive, but considering cost and market-size, imo not unjustified. The problem is that behringer is monopolising both the market-share, customer pool and intellectual property. In the short term it allows us to buy relatively good synthesizers at relatively low prices (i believe they are skimming a lot more profit off the top when you look at parts, R&D, etc than most of the other, more 'expensive' brands) Small innovating companies are now having a much harder time to get off the ground, or even survive, and do actual innovation. These are the companies and people that push boundaries and creativity. Not a big faceless multinational that stuffs our stockings with cheap fast food,
WOW ,, ROB ,, That was some seriosly well researched and explained content . which i was not expecting as i hadent seen the first video ,, its definitly made me think ,, Fasinating stuff my friend ..
Thanks Jaffa!
Behringer is not a disrupter, its a copy cat / thief. Btw, excellent discussion on antisemitism
I don't think you are unfair to Behringer's unprofessional marketing and online outreach. I hope reform is coming there. I believe Behringer is disruptive in exactly the ways that other companies (like Toyota, and later Kia) are as is laid out in the book The Innovator's Dilemma. Behringer has a key technological edge that allows them to undercut their competitors. They grabbed the bottom of the market. With time, they can afford to make higher quality products at a higher margin. This is the standard path with these sorts of companies. It is weird how bent out of shape people got over the Swing, since it appears to cost the same as the Arturia Keystep. Not sure Behringer is following the right strategy on that unit. Of course Behringer can make eurorack modules cheaper than the original makers. How small companies will compete with Behringer is unclear, but compete they will. In the end, broken companies will fail and new ones will emerge because there is a market for hardware synths again. Seems like consumers will benefit from this.
No need for ethics.
@@crysstoll1191 Setting aside the marketing department (which we agree needs work), what behringer is doing by cloning gear has been done by other companies for years. Even the "good" synth companies. Korg was once the low-end synth maker in the market, for example. Price competition is unavoidable.
So, in a nutshell.. Take it or leave it..🙂
Uli is a genius ❤
A "very stable" genius
very good addendum to previous video . Outro Music still too loud under voice. Try some sidechaining or turn down music.
Cheers, will improve on that for future videos :)
Yet you have an Arturia product in the background. If there is one company that copies all the vintage gear it's Arturia. I think you all need to go and use your time to make some decent music.
Yeah the Polybrute is a copy of...Minifreak is a... ahh but the MatrixBrute is a copy of... oh wait. Nice try bootlicker.
Great and thoughtful video. Behringer still needs to be called out about this. Churlish and juvenile behavior for a major manufacturer that does great stuff when they aren't sinking to unnecessarily low levels. But I'm not sure I agree with your charitable supposition that Behringer's anti semitic undertone was accidental. I did a quick google search for "anti semitic imagery" and the first link listed had an example of a caricature that was strikingly - eerily - *extremely* similar to the cork sniffer caricature. The grin, the hairline, the facial hair, the exact angle looking at the face. I won't post the link here because the page in question heavily references issues around the current Israel/Palestine conflict which I think is a complex situation and too polarizing for a synth page. But if you do the search I did you'll find the image easily. I understand Peter Kirn isn't jewish, but whomever did the art for cork sniffer created this image as a derogatory depiction, and it is very odd that such a specific similarity came out of that person's mind. Who would even agree to produce that awful piece of media? Maybe Uli did it himself. I sure wouldn't obey direction to do something like that. Again, great video. Sounds like you know a lot about the subject.
Behringer makes Jeff Bezos from amazon look like an angel
No Jeff Bezos the regional manager of IHOP.
Seriously, Bezos is a sociopath with money but he doesn't bully other manufacturers and journalists to the level of a$$hole Uli.
my guy has three vcrs but cant afford a de-esser whack.
It's not copying of decades old stuff that I have a problem with. But when they behave like malignant narcissists with sociopathic tendencies, I'm disgusted and want to buy something else.
The only visible distinction between a deliberate antisemitic dog whistle and an unfortunate coincidence is context. The biggest gap in the case against Behringer imo is that the cork sniffer gaffe stands alone - there's nothing else this brazen afaik.
So I agree that deliberate antisemitism is less than likely. Maybe 1 in 5.
I'm less aligned about how much intention matters. The fact is that a "cultural elites hate us because we're strong and do things the simple and right way to benefit the common man," is a narrative any fascist would embrace, and while employing it doesn't make you a fascist in itself, it's dishonest and manipulative.
I prefer for corporate speech to make reactionary clowns uncomfortable.
Bro we are broke. We need affordable synths
I don't understand why so much attention is focused on the Kirn/Behringer feud! They can call each other names, get in the ring and fight if they want... whatever!
Affordable synths that sound great? Or self serving, career clout-chasing influencers? I know on which side i'm on!
Reminds me of those who rather see the county burn than read mean "Tweets".
Antisemitism has been rampant my whole life. It largely goes unnoticed by people who are not Jewish. Unfortunately, there is not much that can be done. Your explanation of antisemitism was well thought out. Still, the deep mistrust of jews is embedded in many cultures. I guess what I am trying to say is no one is born a bigot. It is behavior that obviously is culturally acceptable in most of the world. Oh, I own a Behringer Model D and Brains. Both are awesome. I will purchase from them again. Great-sounding stuff.
fair points, although the fact a certain unfortunate combination of artistic decisions when drawing kirn on a mock up design for a joke synthesizer still shouldn't make them guilty. if you were to post 100 pictures on the internet and 1 of them contained something that could be interpreted in a way which wasn't your intention should you or I be guilty of intending that? someone looked at my avatar the other day on youtube and ascribed a meaning it doesn't mean at all, when it's actually just an upside down silly joke. what's also interesting to note is this person also seemingly wanted to get personal with me... and I see this happening with people who immediately were calling the picture offensive. if a person doesn't like another person or thing they will often try and find ways to create a problem out of nothing as a way to attack them. there was already an army of soldiers who didn't like behringer ready to be deployed before the kirn thing blew up.
behringer have been unprofessional at times, and that is kind of weird and perplexing. it seems a bit wild and out of control, this is largely a problem towards themselves as it's doing them no favours. its also a problem for the synth community as it's causing a lot of division. but when I looked back on their history or more kirn's history with behringer it sort of makes a bit of sense. kirn pretty much made it one of his main goals to frequently drag the behringer name through the mud on his blog. he does highlight a lot of things which are well known. that they clone other things. it is punching down to take aim at him but I guess they are human after all, if someone has been an arse towards you enough you're gonna reach a point eventually where you snap and be an arse back. a lot of this makes sense if you just see it as human beings being human beings rather than professional businesses. because I see people act like this towards each other all the time online, you don't have to go far to find it. forums, social media, etc it's everywhere.
A TRIGGER WARNING. dude, stop while you're behind. this is nuts
Lol you were triggered by the trigger warning!
yea man it was their reputation and not their behavior wherever they went
Behringer makes many plenty fine products.
Behringer is very manipulative of how they do their trade dress.
Behringer is ran by insecure and immature business people
Working in the watch industry I am finding it extremely funny how the music gear industry consumer is so offended by Behringer's copy paste product line. Almost every watch brand has released watches that are almost a direct copy of more expensive brands but then at a more affordable price. If a watch brand is successful at creating something new, it's a certainty that in the next season many other brands will follow with similar models. With only slight changes to prevent being sued. You will have to look far and wide to find any watch enthousiast who actually cares. It's so normalized. Needless to say the entire fashion industry has been run this way, copy paste good ideas, bring back timeless classics and above all make it all more affordable. That someone like Behringer is taking that strategy into the music gear industry is what makes them disruptive and that some consumers are offended by this is nothing but a textbook example of people being angry at those who are successful in a way that seems almost too easy, yet everyone else overlooked the opportunity. So now people feel the need to defend those who didn't see this opportunity.
I think Uli is my new favorite lolcow
Innovation in outboard samplers would be a good step. Combine your gear in a creative manner .
What ever happened to the 1000 free sysnths for education?
It ended up being 1500 synths and $200k czcams.com/video/a9pA5SS5DhY/video.html
“They know this product is good and that ppl want it.” Which is why Roland has never reissued a real 303 but the TD-3 sells for less than $150. I don’t want Roland’s crap virtual analog & nostalgia marketing, I want a 303
3:50 - BX700 looks more like a MicroFreak from wish to me lol
Thanks for the video, although I don't think Behringer needs even more publicity these days.
Stopped me from buying my first Behringer product. Thank you! #yikes
this is how "disruptors" they dont do anything new just do it cheaper
In the over 10yrs long journey of me diving into synth Loopop videos were never in one way appealing to me. Not saying these are bad but just not for me. Mylar Melodies, Rick, Ben and this store from the US is doing it for me. But really Muffs is the shit where I got unbiased information from.
Re-creating a minimoog in digital form, from analogue form, does require R&D. Just not at the level of Bob Moog, who pioneered the development of analogue synths. Moog became very successful until the rest of the world caught up.
Behringer has a engineering team with the digital & analogue toolkits which they are applying to quickly re-create these vintage synths. If you have the toolkits and a massive production facilities, you must continually innovate to make use of that production capacity. When Behringer stops issuing new synths, be they vintage clones, kinda new, or totally new, they will certainly reach their end of life. It's all part of the never ending business cycle.
On the Anti-Semitism side. The Kern graphic is it. Anyone remotely associated with life, let alone marketing should know better. Decrying that depiction as a "mistake" is a mistake. Someone did that. A company's culture allowed that to happen. Would I ever put any caricature of a brown skinned man with suggestive features, expression, or dress on my product. You'd be nuts to do so. To actually target an individual, Peter Kirn, a person, and a tiny competitor? Don't get me started.
People are individuals, who like to group together. Individuals make mistakes, as do groups. Society can usually correct an individuals behaviour. It's much harder to correct the group. Behringer appears to have such a group... who are behaving badly.
The Peter Kirn and Loopop incidents are disappointing. However, I'm now much more aware. Thanks for the video.
Behringer seem strong on copying and manufacturing analog synths. Creating, or reverse-engineering, anything software-based is a different matter. They would really have to be innovative and inventive to re-create opaque software. They might as well develop new, unique digital instruments rather than emulate classic digital ones.
The problem is Behringer's antagonistic attitude and moral grandstanding are just really lame. Additionally, cloning the Keystep at the same price is just absurd. However, a lot of these companies that they are cloning from have been actively participating in price fixing, actively discouraging the kind of competition that would benefit customers. In the case of companies like Moog, and Sequential, if you ignore the cult around the founders, they're just over-selling instruments designs from the 70s. They sound good, undoubtedly, but the idea that you can sell a 5 voice polysynth at the same price as a laptop is insane.
It takes a couple minutes to realize why Behringer keeps releasing clones instead of originals- 90% of their Facebook group is just people asking for clones
I think they're at their best when they're making gear inspired by other synths, like the Juno 106, but giving their own spin on it.
But that team left. And they altered the design because it doesn’t sound like a 106, so they made a DM.
I agree though, they should focus on this. But they know many young musicians think analog is better, and exploit their naivety. As discussed here
What does loopops pp taste like? It seems to be stuck deep in your throat.
Behringer tried originality with the deepmind and were criticized for not making a 1-to-1 clone. Behringer is bad, but the market that supports Behringer is narrow minded and keeps them from going further. As the video says, a feedback loop.
I think Arturia is an interesting example since they have such a strong software department to keep them going beyond just hardware. Companies not doing the same have a really hard uphill battle in a market that just wants the usual synth companies to reissue classics.
i dont think the mutable comparison is fair seeing as the code is freely available for anyone to use, as many other companies are doing, and were doing prior to beh brains. however clones of maths are a bad idea. and arturia keystep. and more. companies like make noise and arturia are crucial to innovation in the musical instrument industry. and now with moog gone.... :(
I like your style. Synths & Critical Thinking. Nice.
Thanks ❤
Behringer DID NOT LIE about Loopop. Loopop only does free gear reviews and THAT IS A FACT. He is defensive whenever I have asked for a CLEAR DISCLAIMER about the gear he reviews. He is unable to clearly say "I GOT THIS GEAR X FOR FREE". He NOW says something like "this was sent to me for review" ...like if he had to return it.
the future rules, huh guys? constant apologies, trigger warnings. calling someone an anti-semite for mocking a non-jew
Surprised you didn't make a comparison to drug companies and generic drugs. Seems like ubiquitously everyone loves generic drugs - they are 1/10 the price and exactly the same chemical. They took none of the risk - just copied the active ingredients, etc.
0:25 .. is that One Two 3 vcr's ??? hehehe hahahaha. swag
I agree, it's not enough. Don't worry, I'm, working on it
The amount of research that went into this is only imagined as daunting AF, mad respect.
Something I hadn't really thought about though, but if your words here were a forest, allowed me to come to the conclusion(a tree) that the influencer world is complete bullshit, and they can all suck it. Our species simply doesn't have the cognitive power to handle social elevation in any form without rotting the important human things. As for Behringer? I honestly couldn't be paid enough to give a crap. There is stuff by every company still in the game that I love and I hate, the company is 'usually' irrelevant. I openly hate moog, sure. I won't buy elektron, access or anything from any dave smith derivative, that's also true. But that's due to the lexus nature of the product, it's a fucking toyota, part interchangeability and everything sold at a higher price for dipshit twats to gloat about, and I make fun of every single one, intentionally, where's the album? with all the cash on that desk you'd think you would sound better. It's these people that have writers block, and they deserve it. That super progressive album out of left field by some guy in where-ever? Wait, he did that with a casio, an sr16 and a delay pedal?
It's not the car, it's the driver.
Whether you pass or fail in your musical hobby/career will have very little to do with the company that sold you the gear(I'm sidestepping how jacked the music distributor game is, that's whole a whole 6 pack of grenades sans pins in the crocodile that has you pinned down in a kiddy pool you're half drunk in cuz she left you again...). Let's bring up Roland, completely fucking clueless, have you seen the tiny nippled(jdxiwheels)Gaia2? Who is that for? Akai's new apc? WTF. Is this an AI designed joke no one had the balls in the board meeting to say anything reasonable like 'this is garbage, you can't be serious!'. And all of this is being sold as your ticket out of the janky part of town, yeah @ .00001 cents per stream, good luck with that, pal.
I'd like to remind people how often they disdain their own human creativity and human voice cuz that's not top 40, or (insert popular dumbass genre 52 which will be gone in 3 years). I get that some people learn thru emulation, but jesus christ, it's just psychotic autotuned genre killing noise at this point, and we're focusing on what might be in the diary of a corporate entity? Sounds like societal boredom has rotted into mass hysteria to me, I'd rather do weird configurations of my gear using rolls of dice against a spreadsheet than care.
I too was surprised about the historical depth of your essay. Its real value is in observing the repercussions of regurgitating conflicts of cultural significance. If scholarly analyses are unavoidable, how then can we make mistakes without risking our blunders becoming symbolically antagonistic. Behringer is on the spot for this one.
I DON’T CARE WHAT YOU THINK,I WILL CONTINUE TO BUY BEHRINGER PRODUCTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
A well considered and entirely reasonable essay, I can see exactly what you mean.
There is however yet another angle to be considered. I've been involved with the synth world since the early 1970s and still spend most of my working life repairing and restoring old equipment (and new - spilling beer into your PolyD has roughly the same effect as pouring it into a Minimoog!). Despite around half a century of total immersion I'd never even heard of Peter Kern before the whole argument blew up. Loopop? Who on earth is that? It does strike me that if you're an 'influencer' then right now picking an argument with Behringer is a pretty easy way of pulling in a lot more followers. Again, if you're more than 20-odd years old (which let's face it, is most of us on the planet) then you can see the Corksniffer thing as the satire it was meant to be. Yes, a bit heavy-handed I agree, but the fact that A) they were accusing him of lying and B) he isn't Jewish would have made most people think 'Pinocchio'. I think 'influencers' often have an inflated opinion of their importance.
I own a large number of vintage synths and quite a few Behringers as well, and I think what they're doing is brilliant. The build quality is really good, especially compared to the originals in most cases (look inside an ARP2600 sometime!) and the prices mean that anyone can afford to get started. My first ever synth cost me four months wages, now I could buy it's equivalent after just over a day's graft
Two important things to remember here, firstly that the whole 'corksniffer' incident was aimed at Peter Kirn, who isn't jewish and as far as I can tell doesn't have any jewish ancestry, not Loopop. That situation started after Loopop described the Toro synth as a flop, when in reality they couldn't make them fast enough they were so popular. This led to a bit of back and forth that the internet blew up out of all proportion :~)
If you look it up the definition of a corksniffer is "someone who inaccurately believe they can tell the quality of a wine by sniffing the cork." and has nothing at all with being jewish! It's a term commonly used in guitar forums all over the place to describe people who think that they can tell if a guitar is rubbish without ever playing one. The picture is actually far closer to a cartoon by Robert Crumb in the 1970s, almost identical in fact, and that was about lying, not greed. Add to that the fact that the design came from the marketing department, not Uli, and it all starts to look a bit silly.
As for numbers, a quarter of a million followers sounds a lot, but out of an average of 1.5 billion youtube users per day, it's statistically a bit irrelevant. A local friend of mine has just topped 200,00 and his is just about restoring an obscure type of steam engine ;~)
12:00
If this is what you genuinely believe was intended by Behringer in their Corksniffer, which is certainly reasonable enough, that supports the claim that Behringer has (edit: or at least had) an antisemitism problem. Either they didn’t know what antisemitism is or someone brought this up and they went forward with it anyways. Either way, it is antisemitic.
Another good analogy is Harry Potter. JK didn’t intend to do an antisemitism with her depiction of the bankers as stereotypes of Jews. But her lack of intent doesn’t change that it is antisemitic.
Once you start speaking about 'the subconscious', you're reaching into the realms of the magical to cast your arguments. It's especially troubling when you have to both define it and prove that it's real enough to hold the weight of your arguments.
I think that "Kork sniffer" joke was just a stupid joke. Not something really insulting.
Swing is a cringe actually. But most of other products deserves respect.
They made an ass off themselves. Just buy their stuff used. Upgrade to the real thing when you got the dough, sell it to the next newbie. Yes They got some great original stuff. Flow8. No alternative at that price point.
Pearl clutching
I'm first time on your channel, my first video to watch, youtube algorithm suggested it to me;
*An Essay is a focused piece of writing that explains, argues, describes, or narrates. It's derived from French word Essai~ meaning Try *
Why the spitting 😢, that act is perceived as a form of aggressive expression, toward that post that you read moments before 32:55 - all of this insightful video (like no other so far) doesn't ad's up to your credibility to take part in discussion unbiased. We the viewer ask of you to perceive subject like any other, from a far and critically not in favor of any side, that is fair journalism (nothing can wash that act of virtual violence within this worldwide media addressing stance packaged as video Essay). Jes I am aware that you mentioned that this is your subjective opinion at least once.
There for 1 #tainted Unlike to let you know about my overall biased opinion, based on your biased opinion 😊
P.S. beforehand I even wanted to rewatch/relisten what you had to say on the subject of Behringer, until that very spit action.
In that regard I would like to suggest you to Be Positively Distruptive in life and vibrate Light (pun intended), share good that comes out of you, the bad keep for inner self to reflect upon, otherwise it ad's up to Darkness!
Hope this help in shaping your future releases, and Yes you have all the liberty on this world, to express as you feel and like - regardless of what I wrote here, just bear in mind that this platform makes you public person you liked it or not, think twice - don't replicate that Kern Kork rant (me ranting you here - how do You Feel now) that you are referencing to, you can be better then that "If your life goes in that direction", off course.
Overall Awesomely Philosophical story video !!!
Bro what?
@@ucewillis read, don't trust - but read!
Lol. Behringer trying to play the victim in the Loopop situation really shows the immaturity and insecurity of the people involved with the business of Behringer
In particular the ass that owns them. I'm not sure that the rest of them agree, they most likely just go along with the scumbag behaviour to keep their jobs. Probabably like working at Tesla or Xitter.
Well, bless your heart! You'll figure it sooner or later!
i know i know...but teenage engineering is probably the most disruptive to synths....as noted by @LiamKillen and others, TE is a design company more than a synth manufacturer...that's disruptive.
Behringer just makes instruments. Like a guitar manufacturer: they all are lookalikes and everybody steals designs from eachother. Don't make it bigger thsn it is. Same with cars, tables, houses, ovens, airfryers, ventilators etc. Musicians think their business is sooooo cool and so important. Stop bashing instrument companies. Just buy whayever you want. If synthesizers were that innovative they would have patents or design rights on it. By the lack of it we have to assume that there are no real (disruptive) technical innovations.
but whether the anti-semitic trope was intended or not, why didn't they all go "hang on a minute, we can't do that..." as quickly as the rest of us did?
that excuse just doesn't hold any water for me.
that they elected to visually disparage one of their critics like this shows an incredible immaturity at the highest levels of their strategic mechanisms.
leaving aside their 'heroic' entry-level-lowering box-shifting of mass-produced knockoffs, there's- for me & plenty of others- something to discuss when it comes to their corporate morality; they simply don't seem to have one.
same defence was used on behalf of & by the british broadcaster danny baker when a tweet he published upset miilions of followers & got him canned from his BBC show after a witch-hunt of sorts. I was on his side at the time, as a fan, but I soon saw the hole in that argument- you can't riff on one thing, expecting your audience to get it, & be in denial about a similar & equally well-known trope which is far more offensive to people.
you can't work a sight-gag in the broader context of social media sight-gags without being fully aware of the lexicon.
the number one "followers making" subject in the music gear community
Stating that companies colluding to produce high priced synths is a good thing is insane. You need to study economics better. How much R&D do you think the Moog reissue took. How innovative is that. I have a bunch of modern Moogs and I have had serious issues with all of them. The Matriarch being the worst. Talk about rehashing old circuits. I have many Behringer clones. They are all good and give me no trouble. I am ordering a Pro 800 and if it’s any good my Prophet 10 is going bye bye. $5k for that.
Boring bro... get that matrixbrute into gear and finish some songs ... And enjoy you dont have to pay 1000 dollars for a mother 32 and make yourself think you bought anything else than a silly fart machine. Swing? Buy keystep nothing stops you... And yeah, they the good guys who stepped up and helped people stop paying tens of thousands for 60s tech...
Right on! I've never seen so much trendy negative overdramatizing of a company in my life. Wondering how he feels about Raman noodles/Mac n cheese undercutting the olive garden as a company. Wonder where that whole negative rabbit hole might go lol