What if Portugal Got All Of Africa In 1884?
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- čas přidán 8. 09. 2024
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#possiblehistory #alternatehistory #alternatehistoryofeurope #portugal
#africa #alternatehistoryofafrica #congressofberlin
What if, in an alternate timeline, the berlin conference of 1884 went completely different. Instead of the delegates discussing a fair way to divide Africa while preventing conflict between the European Great powers, they all decide that Portugal deserves the entire continent.
Why? Because Portugal has a claim on the entire continent of Africa, thanks to the treaty of Tordesillas all the way back from the 16th century. In our own timeline this treaty was quickly ignored by other great powers, but what if, in 1884, Portugal brought it up again. Realistically they would be laughed out of the room by the European great powers, but what if - for whatever reason - the delegates just agreed.
This would mean all other European powers retreat from the African continent, leaving it all up for Portuguese expansion, but Portugal is but a small nation. Can Portugal truly conquer and entire continent, one fifth of the Earth's landmass?
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"wow"
Italy gets more Africa.
2:15 you said “Asia” instead of “Africa”
Wow
My head cannon: Portugal gets all the delegates drunk in Berlin and rolls a nat 20 for persuasion
Germany fighter, Russian barbarian. France italtiy cleric, French warlock, and britan sorccer.
Portugal BARD!
@@maxdanzl-lage8498 I love that I want to see country humans D&D characters now
It might be possible if Portugal kept Brazil, then industrialised early and would be similar strength as USA at the time.
@@1mol831 That's such a large if though xD
💣
Portugal did bring up these claims in the Berlin Conference lol
Wasn't aware of that, kind of a chad move
@@possiblehistory the portuguese claim is the reason they came up with the occupation principle over the historic one since Portugal obviously couldn't effectively occupy all of Africa
@@possiblehistory and we certainly had the right to have all of africa because portugal caralhooooo
Portugal after making that claim: 🗿
@@possiblehistory I hate to admit that coming from a former Portuguese colony... But yeah rather based 😂
Turns out, neither the scenario of Charlemagne controlling minds, nor the one about alien invasion is the most unlikely one to have aired on the channel anymore.
How has no one replied
No idea
Nor the one where Stalin got zombies by using a book from Rasputin.
Honestly, I could see this resulting in a greater Brazilian sphere of influence over Africa if they had many Portuguese speaking people and may turn to Brazil as a result of decolonization
After the coup Brazil became powerless at the world stage. If they were still a monarchy then yes, I can see them help the Portuguese, but I can't realistically see that becoming a thing.
@@cavalexyou are kinda wrong about the "after the coup" argument, as the monarchy was just as inept in foreign affairs as the early brazilian republic was.
For example, Imperial Brazil supported the Paraguayan independence and its growth at the expense of Argentina just to later get attacked by Paraguay.
There was also the ineptitude where the Imperial Government allowed France to establish a foothold in Amapá, which was only later corrected by the Baron of Rio Branco during the old Republic.
do u see brazil doing that today? brazil is a closed country.
Brazil does have the resources and cultural influence to be imperialistic over Africa and the Caribbean, not to mention that the government has been pretty socialistic since the 90's and every president (aside from Bolsonaro) has been a Left-wing one. _(Most of them were terrible btw including Bolsonaro)_ albeit instead of Asserting it's economic dominance over poorer socialist nations like Cuba, Angola, Mozambique etc etc etc our presidents just decide to build Supersaturated ports for them as a "Courtesy" at a time where many important ports were needing desperately to be reformed...
Screw you Lula...
@@MedsieLovrwtf? Brazil can’t afford to be imperialistic, none of the nations in Latam can, they are heavily overshadowed by the US in every capacity and any attempt at being overtly imperialistic would be crushed by the US and they would be turned into a pariah state like Cuba & Venezuela. Economic cooperation is the most Brazil can & should do, they gain nothing otherwise. Seriously try to gain some critical thinking skills, geopolitics isn’t a game of HOI4 or Europa Universalis.
Portuguese Speech Level (during Berlin Conference): ∞
There have been some unlikely scenarios on this channel. The cold war ending in world peace without national borders with both power blocs intact, harry potter existing, pterosaurs being ridden by humans, eating people, and being hunted to near extinction, the darkness killing people, Charlemagne having psychic powers...
But this is the most insane scenario on the channel by far.
Naaaa we could do it
Except the North Africa... we would want that :))))
My reasoning for this: Portugal was a growing power in Europe. They had just invented assault rifles, Tiger II tanks, spitfires, Panther tanks, and nuclear weapons. No-one wanted to mess with them.
they found the cheat console
@@Vitorruy1 yes
They typed "research_all"
@@plorabareTheres no underscore
you do
research all
ic (For instant constructions)
b u i l d
ale 500000 (add_latest_equipment)
NO THEY DIDN'T. (unless this is satire, which makes this bottom part useless)
assault rifles: germany
tiger II tanks: germany
spitfires: england
Panther tanks: germany
nukes: usa
What if the 1918 Luddendorf offensive succeeded and took Paris
Kaiserreich
Better world then today Probably.
@@justaplayer94Well, that’s probably not too hard. Lol.
@@eudstersgamersquad6738 True lol.
@@justaplayer94is living in nazi Germany 0.2 good?
Portugal's getting all of Africa is very interesting. However, what would be better if Portgual received the most significant lands of the contents, which the Europeans did not want but something that may be valuable resources for the Portuguese. What you said about Portugal having a very poorly educated population is accurate, for they need people with good education to run these colonies in the southern part of Africa. This an excellent alternate history video, Mr. Possible History; I really enjoyed it because it is fascinating and educational at the same time.
I do have an excellent idea for future alternate history videos if you're interested in the initially that nobody has ever heard of before. Anyway, this an incredible video, Mr. PH and keep the awesome job you're doing!
Can you do what if Portugal got the "Pink map" or what if Portugal fighted against the UK (or England) over the "Pink map"?
Would be really nice to see it
What is the pink map
@@aidynsbestyoutubemoments Portugal plans to make their ex-colonial territories Angola & Mozambique unite by conquering the lands in between
@@lilcaldoverde oh kinda like Germany and middleafrika
@@aidynsbestyoutubemoments But the pinkmap is way smaller, and it would be possible if England didn't interfere
Boy sou o Rafa pinto tu não és o Rafa pinto
Maybe in this timeline Portugal still has Brazil (and no Lisbon tsunami maybe?) and thus has a much bigger manpower pool to pull from
the Lisbon Earthquake was very much needed
@@jwb_666 what for?
God forbid the Portuguese kept Brazil...
The portugese africa
The portugese africa is real
*Can we get much higher*
*So high*
Yes! The timeline of my dreams! Let the Portuguese giga chadery commence!
I'm just imagining the delegates at the conference of Berlin getting drunk out of their minds and just saying "fuck it, this goes to Portugal" pointing at the map of Africa in their drunken state 😂
Even better: The Portuguese delegate arrived at the meeting early and spiked all the other delegates' drinks with Port wine before they arrived.
I think africa would be much beteer of in the long term not only because, as you said, the borders may be more natural but also because the individual nations wouldn't have been geared to produce highly specialized cash crops as much. Much of the continent was ruled by Africans themselves, and in the Portuguese colonies its not unlikely that they start to integrate Africans into the administration to maintain governance, leading to many economic decisions being made by Africans rather than Europeans.
Some Portuguese have African genes, this is due that a creole (Portuguese born in the colonies) could be full Portuguese if he was white enough. This mindset is completly different from the British one. This Portuguese mindset, that you see in former Portuguese colonies and those that got controlled by other countries such as Senegal with mix raced taking the lead and being considered Portuguese. So it was already happening. Remember Portugal is in Africa since the 15th century, that's centuries before the Berlin conference. The problem with this video is that it is ignorant about the subject it is trying to discuss, making a mock and being ignorant, and then without any historical base tries to make alternative history.
the portugese delegate tricked them by saying “do you want to not not not not give me not all of not africa?” and they got so confused they just gave it to them
Well two of the main requirements for the claims in Africa during the treaty were both military presence and political influence in the area the country was claiming.
So in this scenario most likely the Portoguese strengthened their African route on African coasts even more (even possibly fully focusing on it and not developing the Brazilian colony as much).
Many ports are created and over the years they influence most of the major empires in Africa to the point the claim is possible.
Even if the Empires ignored these claims we'd have a situation similiar to the French-Britain claims controversy in Africa at the time in which military would solidify Portoguese holdings and thus claiming most if not all of the African territory legally.
This is my sacrifice to the algorithm. May your grace shine upon us and this channel prosper under your almighty gaze.
The only way Portugal could do this is to essentially co-opt enterprising people from whatever country to go and establish something, encorouge settlers and then bring in government stuff however that probably would lead to a Boer situation.
the thing is that Portugal didn't had ressources or manpower to compete. Industrialization came late and the industrialized countries had a significant advantage because of that. Portugal also didnt had any coal or ressources to industrialize. That's why relativelly small territories like France could produce more than the entire african continent.
Do a "What if Brazil accepted Peru to join them" they had that opportunitie, but from what I know they rejected
It was actually Bolivia that asked for annexation by Brazil, you might have been confused because Bolivia was called "Upper Peru" at the time, and the reason for the request is that the rulers of Upper Peru were afraid of a civil war for independence or an invasion of its neighbors
What are you guys talking about? I couldn't find it anywhere
@@rookie_odst2560 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_Peru#Brazilian_Intervention History para
@@AntiBalloon thx that helped a lot 😃
I think the real question of this scenario is not if Portugal would have the resources and manpower to control the whole of Africa, but if Portugal could make an african Brazil
Portugal IRL DID brought up the treaty of tordesilas at Berlin, but everyone simply ignored it
My head cannon: everyone went “we give it to Portugal in return that they can never go to war”
Therapist: Portoguese Mittelafrika don't exsists it can't hurt you.
Portoguese Mittelafrika;
No, it would be called África Central.
Portugal: "Well we got a nuke somehow, what are we gunna extort?"
You should play out a scenario based on History Matters' segment on America's role in the Scramble for Africa: specifically, the desire to limit European spheres of influence by the rivers, setting up "free trade zones".
Also ik I already commented but the treaty only applies to non christian territories. So South Africa, and technically speaking Algeria, as it was part of France proper would be allowed to remain in control of the respective powers. As a bonus, any Christian state in Africa, is considered free reign so any European is allowed to take it over.
So here's my own scenario for how Portugal colonized all of Africa, it is no more realistic, but I hope you enjoy it. The Portuguese ally with the Spanish during their war with the Ottomans, allowing them to seize and split Egypt between the two. The Portuguese, recognizing their numbers to be too small to occupy Egypt directly, grant their Egyptian vassals a level of autonomy and religious freedom, the Spanish do not. As a result, the 80 years war becomes not just a Dutch revolution, but an Egyptian rebellion too. After miserable failures in Egypt, the Spanish agree to cede their Egyptian territory to Portugal in return for their continued assistance against the Dutch. Spain continued fighting the Dutch in what they saw as the more valuable European holdings while the Portuguese fought at them at sea, putting down the Egyptian revolt, and eventually capturing South Africa towards the end of the war. This would motivate the Portuguese to link their already existing colonies in Angola and Mozambique with their new South African holdings.
After this, Portugal would most likely turn their attention to the Barbary Corsairs, slowly conquering the rest of North Africa. Whether they would give the Berbers the same religious freedom and autonomy as Egypt is debatable, but the more freedoms they give, the easier the land will be to hold. With the northern and southern coasts of Africa under Portugal, the Portuguese could continue to expand their empire along the western and eastern coasts. No doubt their would be some minor wars with other Europeans for control of the Triangle Trade, perhaps even a war with the US, but I suspect that by the time of the Berlin Conference the Scramble for Africa would largely be a moot point. With the invention of Quinine, the Portuguese could then push into the interior of the continent. I think the sheer size of the colony would, ironically, render it much more tolerant than the African colonies of our own timeline, though no doubt Jesuit missionaries would still work hard to convert the pagan Africans, if not the Muslims. Again, it's not the most realistic scenario, but it was a fun thought exercise for me and I hoped you enjoyed it.
Think you're forgetting that a major factor in the Scrabble for Africa and the reason the colonies lasted was because Europeans made deals with African leaders and tribes, so I doubt it would be more tolerant, in fact I think it would be more brutal.
What if Napoleon or Alexander the Great were incompetent leaders?
Napoleon III was pretty much that
@@PP-kx9ec When you accidently invade Mexico :P
I wouldn't be so sure that Portugal wouldn't be able to keep such a big empire in Africa. In Brazil, there was a form of exploration of the territory known as Bandeiras. Essentially the Portuguese mixed with native people were able to enter the territory and destroy small tribes one by one. I think that, if Portugal were given such a big territory, they would repeat this in Africa. That is, they'd encourage the miscegenation of African people and use those people to enlarge the territory, just as they did in Brazil. In fact, the only reason why Brazil is not bigger than the current borders is because Spain was colonizing the other half of South America. Without Tordesillas, for sure Portugal would try to colonize all of South America.
The one guy with the bots in the Berlin Conference video saw this and was like "y e s ."
A more possible alternative history would be a Portuguese colony that would include Angola and Mozambique plus the "pink map" area with Zimbabwe, Malawi, Zambia plus the initially recognised claim over the congo Basin (RD Congo). Add to that Casamance in Guinea and Annobon island and this would be the maximum aspired to.
How about doing a...
*What If only Britain and France split all of Africa?* next?
Poland had a 10 in speech skills, that’s why.
They did brought it up, and they did got laugh at xD
So African country’s are mainly border based on the colonies by the powers they were ruled by, so if this actually happens, would Africa be one country? Or it will be properly split on different ethnicities
It will be split in ethnicities, tribes and clans and the continent would be in perpetual War. Basically, all of the African continent would be perpetually in a state similar to the Rwandan genocide. This is why the question of Africa's borders is seen like Pandora's box. This is why all African leaders agreed to never touch the borders. This is known internationally as "the principle of intangibility of borders inherited by colonization".
@@deusvult836 ok but how about they can split and become states or Provence’s in the African continent
@@usmanfaisal2005 at least the Portuguese would be cared more about dividing the provisional boundary of the Africa Continent consider that they would own like all of it
Really enjoyed the video
We didn't need more Africa after 1885 BC shares,what we had need was to stay in Africa a few more years,but after all that happened after the WW2,was hard to maintain that Civilization,that Portugal made in Africa.If i had time to express my views,i had so many...I remember how all the Empire vanished in 1975,i was at the first School Class,the Day that Angola got independent,November,11.
My family had few living there but many that went only to serve in the Army.. 🤕🤔.
Please don't say that it isn't realistic 20 times. Most of us DO NOT CARE that it isn't realistic and we just want the video to begin. Anyways I love your videos.
I know how this happened: The Portuguese diplomat turned a glass of water into wine during the conference, so all the other diplomats bowed down to the Portuguese diplomat and offered him the whole of Africa.
The Story is that Mr beast Made a new Challenge by travelling Back in time and the First one to make the funniest Claim would get their Claim. Since Portugal was so funny, they got the claim
Didn't Belgium claim Portugal at that same conference?
Loved the video!
I don't know how realistic the Spain arrow thing is.
A way in which this could work is at the Berlin Conference, the European powers decide to "help civilize Africa together" and do so by forming a singular, cross European colony/'mandate' in Africa where Portugal is the head country running this colony and the rest the European powers each have their own bits of Africa to maintain (perhaps with similar borders to our own timeline.)
Essentially what I'm envisioning is a European controlled colonial African federation of sorts.
"civilizing" was always an excuse
not even a slim chance
nice profile
@@NulledSeries Ooga booga, they were hairless mobkeyys b4
Wait, did the dude who abused the vote try to give all of Africa to Portugal?
I think it was semi-possible if Portugal managed to act on their goals previously, setting up colonies more successfully before the other European powers, or if the Iberian Union remained, then the United Iberia could’ve stood a better chance colonizing beforehand. But war, politics, and economy prevented that from reasonably occurring
The Iberian Union was the start of the colapse, in just 40 years we lost a lot of trading ports manpower and wealth fighting the enemies of Castile
I imagine Portugal saying: "Africa is mine, the Pope said so!"
In my version of the story the entire world is still catholic and recognizes a treaty made by the Pope as 100% legitimate
It could have been possible had the 1755 Lisbon earthquake never happened and if Brazil never separated
Ironically Africa would probably do better, or whatever countries it got divided into.
Making Portugal like the 50th richest Portuguese speaking country or something.
Thank you
What If Brazil decided stays as a monarchy and help Portugal to conquer africa, same dinasty
Tbh I only found out in this video that tordasilla wasn’t just outlining what parts of the world the other country couldn’t have
head cannon
portugal won the entirety of africa on a poker game
Portugal be like "hold on I signed a treaty with Spain that says I own the entire world."
The rest of the world: "right, Portugal is the whole world. This meeting is about how to divide Portugal."
Portugal girlbossed a little TOO close to the Sun there...
Now this is my type of video!
In 1500 to 1700s, Portugal occupied much of the coastal Africa including the East African coastal cities. They didnt venture inland simply because it would be expensive at the time (technological advancement still backward hence no weapons to fight off Africans and medicines for malaria). Maybe if Portuguese had ventured inland over the years before any other European countries, claiming Africa would be easy for them. Unfortunately, they did not
I imagine they would import Brazilians to help do the work of colonization. Also the Portuguese would probably help their historical ally Ethiopia to conquer East Africa in exchange for trade concessions.
this was a good video
more like impossible history haha great idea for a second channel
My version: Manuel I never expelled the Jews from Portugal in 1496. As a consequence the Kings of Spain had no right to the Portuguese throne and the Iberian Union never took place. Religious tolerance is also maintained and the inquisition is not established in Portugal. As a result, Portugal becomes a warmer, more Catholic version of the Netherlands. By the way, Portugal and the Netherlands are closer, there is no Dutch invasion of Brazil and the Portuguese participate in the assault on Spain's silver fleet. As a result, the Thirty Years' War is shorter and Spain loses Galicia and part of south america to Portugal (but not as much as in our timeline, so Brazil is smaller). Portugal is also more successful against the Turks in North Africa and maintains Morocco as a vassal state. From this point on, this more capitalist, less Spanish and more tolerant version of Portugal follows the natural path of history until the 18th century when the 1755 earthquake does not occur. Instead we have a series of small less devastating earthquakes, which also favors the strengthening of central power that Pombal defended in our timeline (natural disasters tend to favor the formation of more centralized governments). We arrive at the 19th century and the Portuguese royal family (whichever it may be) flees to Brazil after the Napoleonic invasion returns in a similar way to our timeline. However, Brazil did not become independent. It happens that without the Dutch invasion, there is no formation of a Luso-Brazilian army to expel the Dutch and reconquer Angola. As a consequence, nativist sentiment is lower in the colony. Furthermore, Portugal resisted Napoleon better, Nice does not have a Place Massena and the court's stay in Brazil was shorter. In 1884, Portugal arrived at the division of Africa as a great European power capable of asserting its right to Africa.
1:22 It's possible thats in century 15-16 portugal start an massive colonization in Africa, thats intensifiers after Brazil independence
cool vid
BAMOOOSSS PORTUGAL CARALHOOO
“So luxembourg, what will the peace treay with germany be? You want war reparations, an temporal occupation territory..?”
“I want all of asia.”
Is basically portugal
In my head Portugal got that stuff because all the delegates got drunk and thus super aggressive, like Italy pushing for France to lose its colonial privileges for taking Tunisia, but making a compromise, to give the land to Portugal, and because all the delegates but the Portuguese one got drunk, thus the Portegegs wouldn't be aggressive and more and more compromises are made and Portugal gets all of Africa
I have an idea: What if the 1755 earthquake in Lisbon never happened?
Basically a better world
Wait where is the war with the ottoman’s they were not at the conference
What if the US and Russia were allies in 20th and 21st centuries
Portugal literally did claim all of Africa at the Congress of Berlin, citing the Treaty of Tordesilhas to support its claim.
The congo, Belgium got the congo because everyone wanted it and no one could have it, combine this with Russian American and Austrian diplomats who want free access and trade in Africa and you create a deadlock where only small nations are allowed to take in it, of course Portugal wouldn't really own Africa in this scenario, previously owned territories would be kept or only given over in de jure with their original owners practically still running them but it would have free access for slow colonization and all the foreign power they could want in subjugating them, most likely mostly Americans who want investments
5:08 bro really said "women" like it's a disability 💀
Imagine a Brazilian-Portuguese union after Portugal is handed Africa in the Berlin Conference, where the Brazilians and Portuguese become the de facto rulers of Africa.
Portugal would be rich as hell
i literally did this everytime in vic2
Colonies war bouta be crazy
Day 11 asking for "What if Everything Went Perfect for Romania"
Portugal having all of it makes me wonder if Africans would be better off in colonial struggles, or even predetermine some sort of Post-Colonial mega state
Most normal head canon: Portuguese brought an army to threatin so portugal will get all of africa
My head event: the deligates ask Portugal renegade raider or Africa but Portugal pulled a uno reverse and got Africa
I think the most likely way for this to happen is that Christianity and religion is still very strong in Europe, therefore the pope's word means a lot more
To be honest I find the most likely and realistic situation to be Portugal taking what they could realistically maintain and govern, even during the treaty of Tordasillas it was a pipe dream, the population of Portugal couldn't hope to effectively govern the whole continent even if no one lived there at all as the ammount of people needed to extract resources and the ammount needed to govern them would be too much for Portugal. Basically in my opinion the Treaty of Tordasillas was drempt up by idiots and got approved through bribery and no one took seriously for good reason
Not to mention the time it would take to get any messages to and from
The amount of "Für Elise" this guy uses in his Videos is not normal😂
Maybe Portugal could decolonise under promises of economic consessions.
10:20 if they help portugal to explore portugal would be way bigger
my head canon is the pope kicked down the door and said "THE GRACE OF GOD DECLARES IT SO!" and than leaves in a puff of smoke with a holy light shining down where he once stood.
It was during the Berlin conference that the kingdom of Wakanda showed itself to the world. At first the European powers laughed, but after the nuclear vibranium bombing of London, the Europeans thought it was better to respect the Wakandans. And here comes Portugal's famous diplomacy: the king of Portugal sends an emissary to the kingdom of Wakanda and he decides to seduce the crown princess of the Wankandian throne. She becomes pregnant. They get married (because Portuguese men have strong traditional values) and by the sacred law of Wakanda, the heir to the throne must obey her husband. Well, the rest is history.
Even if Portugal still had Brazil they would only have around 20 million people. The stronger Africans like the Boers and Ethiopians and Liberians defended by the juggernaut us, arguably the strongest nation on Earth at this time, would survive without question. Considering this wasn't even more than the other European countries without there Empires, some of which like Canada or Australia are actually loyal, from a power that had been decline for nearly 300 years at that point, this wouldn't even be close to enough to scare them off. The only logical explanation is the King of Portugal found a genie.
HERÓIS DO MAR NOBRE POVO!
In our time line portugal did try to get all of africa and they only got what they got is becouse those were the only lands they invested in so iff they invested more in africa they could have gaind a lot of land but dounbt they would still get all od africa
i am commenting for algorythm
What you don't know is that we Portuguese mix our way into the local populations, thats how we made our Empire in the first place.
fun fact, everyone agreed with portugal except britian
Jesus Came Down from Heaven and told Them #AfricaBelongsToPortugal and then went back up to Heaven.
Do what if George Washington became king or what if Hitler had the intelligence of Napoleon
What if the Treaty of Tordesillas had worked?
Portugal had for the most time controll of the entire coast line of africa from ceuta all the way down to cape of good hope and up to the strait of hormuz and from there the iranian coast to india, sri lanka, bangladesh, malasya, indonesia, macau china, taiwan and to japan. turning the indian ocean into a portuguese lake.
In the 16. century with only 1 million people back then.
Hell we even conquered all of brazil.
Put all the terretories that we managed to conquer over time in africa and let‘s see how much is left. If we concentraded all our forces in just africa instead of having them all over the globe things could have looked diffrent, im not saying we were capeable of controlling the entire continent but most of it for sure.
Don’t underestimate the portuguese man, the mamlucs, venecian empire, almohad caliphate, mughal and maratha empire, the ottomans, spanish and dutch learnd it the hard way!!!
With all due respect, the Portuguese time in the sun came from a short period of being the first in the 15th and 16th century. By the 19th century things had changed.
You mention the Dutch and Ottomans finding out the hard way, while these the two powers who kicked the Portuguese from their hegemonic position in the Indian Ocean trade.
OTL: ANGOLA É NOSSA!
ATL: AFRICA É NOSSA!