58:22 That 30 second stretch was a bit of a masterclass in box coaching by the canadians in many ways: -cheering the foot touch to back up the fencer's touch (it does look like he flicks the floor to me on the 1080 frame by frame 😅) -controlling their own fencer away from the tension situation -leaving the other fencer to the ref to keep malding -immediately counter-protesting on a potential red card offence to put the other team on the back foot -keeping the scoreline accurate as things get chaotic -defusing the situation as soon as the other team are distracted onto the red card accusation, which moves things back to fencing quickly & maintains momentum, favours them as you don't want to give a losing team time to think.
If you look at frame by frame 58:23 you can see the light in the reflection on the strip before Nicks tip is on the floor, that being said Nick has never been known to be a liar so I would always trust his judgment in the moment. That being said If I was in Ramirez shoes there I don't know if I would be the best example of composure myself!
Nice fencing! But oof, that call at 31:10 was almost definitely incorrect by my eyes - I could clearly see the open back of the mask. Should've been at least a yellow card, I don't know the technicalities on whether you can get a touch + yellow card at the same time (but I think the ref should've called halt before the touch). I'm just glad nothing went really wrong, there. Hard touch to the back of the neck feels like one of the few ways you could get seriously damaged while wearing full gear. Screw-ups by the USA fencer and the refs, not Zhang, of course.
@@GPFencing good mental toughness by Zhang in the last bout, too. Doesn't look like he rattles. Not great behavior here by the US team overall (and that's coming from an American...)
My view as a domestic referee. From my understanding the ref has to take into account what stopped the fencing. If Tristan had turned and halt had been called it was the turning that stopped the action, therefore yellow card, and no touch (provided the action from Nick started before halt was called). In this case the halt was called only when the hit was scored, so in essence the hit stopped the touch and not the turn, so that can be ignored. One could argue that the ref could have called halt quicker, stop the action and card, but it is the ref who calls when fencing stops, and the action is stopped by halt being called and not the infringing action (turning in this case). Unless you have video you have to make your call based on what halt was called for. Video refereeing is a bit different and beyond my understanding. From what I understand the current interpenetration around turning your back is that it is dependent on the torso and not the head, although saying that I have seen Imrek carded for ducking his head so much that the back of his head was exposed.
@@wilfie8374 Je suis bien d’accord avec vous pour dire que le halte a été donné après la touche. Mais un peu comme lors d’une sorti de piste, il faut accordé la touche d’une action lancée avant la faute à l’adversaire du tireur fautif. Je suis bien d’accord pour dire que le halte aurait dû être dit dès que l’épaule gauche de Szapary dépassé axe centrale suffisamment pour exposer son dos. Personnellement j’aurais accordé le point et donné un carton jaune pour avoir tourné le dos. Et, dans le cas où il y aurais déjà eu une faute du premier groupe j’aurais donné un carton rouge, donc un deuxième point. Mais tout se passe tellement rapidement qu’il est difficile de voir absolument tout et d’en retenir la séquence exact en tout temps. Par contre à 58:27 en vertu de T.121.2 j’aurais donné un carton jaune à Ramirez pour la manière dont il s’adresse à Zhang.
It is so obvious Zhang hit the floor, both from sound and by slowing down the video. It's really messed up that nobody on team CAN told Nick to be honest there. With tensions high it's a forgiveable offense to trash talk or get angry, but never to cheat. Even if it wouldn't have changed the outcome that's just a total loss of respect for him.
Hey, as an American fencer-I’ve got to disagree with this pretty strongly. Nick hit the foot. 1. At frame-advance speed, you can see the specific frame where the light turns on via the reflection of green on the piste, well before Nick’s blade is even close to the floor off-strip. 2. The sound you’re describing is a metallic “click” sound, not a dull impact like the tip would have made on the carpeted surface off to the side. If anything, that proves that he DIDN’T hit the floor off-strip-unless we’re claiming that the strip wasn’t properly grounded (which would be a different issue). 3. Look at the trajectory of his blade prior to the hit-Nick is coming down toward Ramirez’s foot through the outside line; it would be virtually impossible for him to hit the floor with that motion path. Had he missed totally, it would have been in the middle of the strip. But all that aside-Nick Zhang has demonstrated the highest level of honesty and character in fencing, deliberately disavowing points that landed off target even in bouts with no video review available. Go watch his bout vs. John Edison Rodriguez; there was a LOT at stake for this young guy, and when his tip lands off target in that bout, there’s not even a hesitation-he called it out instantly. To accuse a guy like that of “cheating”-the harshest possible interpretation, even if he HAD hit off-strip here (which he didn’t)-is distasteful. It’s not in the spirit of fencing, and I hope you pause and reflect on the indignity of suggesting it here.
@@achilleus2669 I actually disagree with you on every point you made. First of all, it’s not a carpeted surface, its just a thin grey covering placed on top of a hard wood surface (you can see where this covering ends and the wood is off to the right) so the sound is completely consistent with hitting a hard surface and not the foot. Go take an epee and hit a hard surface, and then hit a shoe and you can head which one sounds more like the video. Secondly, I don’t agree that my comment was not “in the spirit of fencing.” Clearly Yeisser didn’t feel the hit and believed so strongly that this was the case that he started an argument over it. I am just agreeing with him, and you are taking the other side, which is totally fair in my opinion. I don’t think Yeisser would go so far as to call Zhang a cheater out of nowhere, and I’m sure a lot of other people would agree.
@@tadlundborg3198 well, regarding the sound-I think the sound we hear is the sound of the tip hitting the piste after rolling off the foot. It sounds much more metallic and clicky to me than I believe it would off the side of the strip. (As bad as my accuracy is, I have a tragic level of expertise with what various floor hits sound like.) As far as Yeisser-I think it’s a lot more likely that he had a moment of intemperance here than it is that Zhang suddenly (and unhesitatingly) decided to “sell” a floor touch as a toe hit. It would be completely out of character for Zhang to do so, but it would be completely consistent (and more defensible) for Yeisser to protest, if he wasn’t sure he was hit. Given the typical on-strip behavior of these two teams, which do you think is more likely-that Zhang tried to pass off a dishonest touch, or that Ramirez got tilted and tried to argue his way out of a touch?
Finally get to post this one after Pan Ams to keep Damien's data as low as possible.
24:35 that's some next level fencing, fleche into the karate kick to the arm and not even getting the touch
McDonald loves to dish it out, and then complains when he gets it back.
58:22 That 30 second stretch was a bit of a masterclass in box coaching by the canadians in many ways:
-cheering the foot touch to back up the fencer's touch (it does look like he flicks the floor to me on the 1080 frame by frame 😅)
-controlling their own fencer away from the tension situation
-leaving the other fencer to the ref to keep malding
-immediately counter-protesting on a potential red card offence to put the other team on the back foot
-keeping the scoreline accurate as things get chaotic
-defusing the situation as soon as the other team are distracted onto the red card accusation, which moves things back to fencing quickly & maintains momentum, favours them as you don't want to give a losing team time to think.
If you look at frame by frame 58:23 you can see the light in the reflection on the strip before Nicks tip is on the floor, that being said Nick has never been known to be a liar so I would always trust his judgment in the moment.
That being said If I was in Ramirez shoes there I don't know if I would be the best example of composure myself!
@@GPFencing Oh that's so clever I would never have noticed that, my mistake
This was a 🔥🔥🔥bout! Had me screaming at the tv! Congratulations to the Canadian team!
Aside from the rest of his questionable behavior, Curtis is constantly sweeping his unarmed hand in front of his chest.
That's clearly not cool
Dynamo vs Usa
58:25 LMFAOOOOOO
Nice fencing!
But oof, that call at 31:10 was almost definitely incorrect by my eyes - I could clearly see the open back of the mask. Should've been at least a yellow card, I don't know the technicalities on whether you can get a touch + yellow card at the same time (but I think the ref should've called halt before the touch).
I'm just glad nothing went really wrong, there. Hard touch to the back of the neck feels like one of the few ways you could get seriously damaged while wearing full gear. Screw-ups by the USA fencer and the refs, not Zhang, of course.
It's one of those where if there was video review the call would have been changed imo
@@GPFencing good mental toughness by Zhang in the last bout, too. Doesn't look like he rattles.
Not great behavior here by the US team overall (and that's coming from an American...)
Oui pour le carton jaune et oui pour le point. Si il y avait déjà eu un jaune, il y aurait eu le point pour la touche et un point de pénalité.
My view as a domestic referee.
From my understanding the ref has to take into account what stopped the fencing.
If Tristan had turned and halt had been called it was the turning that stopped the action, therefore yellow card, and no touch (provided the action from Nick started before halt was called).
In this case the halt was called only when the hit was scored, so in essence the hit stopped the touch and not the turn, so that can be ignored.
One could argue that the ref could have called halt quicker, stop the action and card, but it is the ref who calls when fencing stops, and the action is stopped by halt being called and not the infringing action (turning in this case).
Unless you have video you have to make your call based on what halt was called for. Video refereeing is a bit different and beyond my understanding.
From what I understand the current interpenetration around turning your back is that it is dependent on the torso and not the head, although saying that I have seen Imrek carded for ducking his head so much that the back of his head was exposed.
@@wilfie8374 Je suis bien d’accord avec vous pour dire que le halte a été donné après la touche. Mais un peu comme lors d’une sorti de piste, il faut accordé la touche d’une action lancée avant la faute à l’adversaire du tireur fautif. Je suis bien d’accord pour dire que le halte aurait dû être dit dès que l’épaule gauche de Szapary dépassé axe centrale suffisamment pour exposer son dos. Personnellement j’aurais accordé le point et donné un carton jaune pour avoir tourné le dos. Et, dans le cas où il y aurais déjà eu une faute du premier groupe j’aurais donné un carton rouge, donc un deuxième point. Mais tout se passe tellement rapidement qu’il est difficile de voir absolument tout et d’en retenir la séquence exact en tout temps. Par contre à 58:27 en vertu de T.121.2 j’aurais donné un carton jaune à Ramirez pour la manière dont il s’adresse à Zhang.
It is so obvious Zhang hit the floor, both from sound and by slowing down the video. It's really messed up that nobody on team CAN told Nick to be honest there. With tensions high it's a forgiveable offense to trash talk or get angry, but never to cheat. Even if it wouldn't have changed the outcome that's just a total loss of respect for him.
Hey, as an American fencer-I’ve got to disagree with this pretty strongly. Nick hit the foot.
1. At frame-advance speed, you can see the specific frame where the light turns on via the reflection of green on the piste, well before Nick’s blade is even close to the floor off-strip.
2. The sound you’re describing is a metallic “click” sound, not a dull impact like the tip would have made on the carpeted surface off to the side. If anything, that proves that he DIDN’T hit the floor off-strip-unless we’re claiming that the strip wasn’t properly grounded (which would be a different issue).
3. Look at the trajectory of his blade prior to the hit-Nick is coming down toward Ramirez’s foot through the outside line; it would be virtually impossible for him to hit the floor with that motion path. Had he missed totally, it would have been in the middle of the strip.
But all that aside-Nick Zhang has demonstrated the highest level of honesty and character in fencing, deliberately disavowing points that landed off target even in bouts with no video review available. Go watch his bout vs. John Edison Rodriguez; there was a LOT at stake for this young guy, and when his tip lands off target in that bout, there’s not even a hesitation-he called it out instantly.
To accuse a guy like that of “cheating”-the harshest possible interpretation, even if he HAD hit off-strip here (which he didn’t)-is distasteful. It’s not in the spirit of fencing, and I hope you pause and reflect on the indignity of suggesting it here.
@@achilleus2669 I actually disagree with you on every point you made. First of all, it’s not a carpeted surface, its just a thin grey covering placed on top of a hard wood surface (you can see where this covering ends and the wood is off to the right) so the sound is completely consistent with hitting a hard surface and not the foot. Go take an epee and hit a hard surface, and then hit a shoe and you can head which one sounds more like the video. Secondly, I don’t agree that my comment was not “in the spirit of fencing.” Clearly Yeisser didn’t feel the hit and believed so strongly that this was the case that he started an argument over it. I am just agreeing with him, and you are taking the other side, which is totally fair in my opinion. I don’t think Yeisser would go so far as to call Zhang a cheater out of nowhere, and I’m sure a lot of other people would agree.
@@tadlundborg3198 well, regarding the sound-I think the sound we hear is the sound of the tip hitting the piste after rolling off the foot. It sounds much more metallic and clicky to me than I believe it would off the side of the strip. (As bad as my accuracy is, I have a tragic level of expertise with what various floor hits sound like.) As far as Yeisser-I think it’s a lot more likely that he had a moment of intemperance here than it is that Zhang suddenly (and unhesitatingly) decided to “sell” a floor touch as a toe hit. It would be completely out of character for Zhang to do so, but it would be completely consistent (and more defensible) for Yeisser to protest, if he wasn’t sure he was hit. Given the typical on-strip behavior of these two teams, which do you think is more likely-that Zhang tried to pass off a dishonest touch, or that Ramirez got tilted and tried to argue his way out of a touch?