I will quote a other comedian here: Dara O Briain: " the reason we say elbows of the table to our kids is because our parents said elbows of the table to us, and the reason they said elbows of the table to us is because there parents said elbows of the table to them, and frankly that's how religion gets started". I think elbows on the table is fine wear i am from. of course that's because we have a table large enough to have 4 plates of food and some pots and stuff without cramping every cm off space.
Harrylechat01 i wrote cm before off, so if you really care, them it is just your own fault. it was worng gamma that i bet you din't care about, or notice.
Elbows on table is bad manners because: 1. I say so (my fathers explanation) 2. One puts his weight on the table and starts to shake the whole thing as soon as one changes position (my grandmothers explanation) 3. You suggest/convey the bad manners of your family every time you're invited to other tables (my mothers explanation) 4. You build up to a bad posture of your upper body that way (my explanation) 5. You cannot use your weapons properly - I loved the german girls 'don't put your hands under the table'-explanation. Never heard that myself, but it sounds just right...
11Kralle and so we have it - when two alternate versions of the same behaviour (elbows on table) are both seen as mannered by different cultures we see that it's non universal and therefore relatively useless in an environment populated from people from many cultures.
easyTree77 Is there a culture in which the elbows have to go on the table? Those who sit on the ground or haven't any furniture would have to lie down for that... Got to read my "Grobianus" for some real clues :D
11Kralle *shrug* if not there should be - if only to demonstrate that it's meaningless - if people don't know why it's (for any particular rule) considered ill mannered, in a way which can be coherently explained such that transcends culture - what value is it and how would one escape mockery by a leading class whom you wish to emulate?
@@easyTree77 No culture sees it as good manners. It's either neutral or deprecated. And you meant alternative not alternate (and no, they don't mean the same thing).
That last point about bumping into someone and it's both your faults, and you apologise and the other person doesn't... yes, David, I completely agree. It sends me into an internal rage (of course I'm too polite to vocalise said rage, but still).
After 10 minutes I'm still on the razor's edge of not finding this interesting to enough continue listening to. It's exhilarating. Will I keep listening? Will I turn it off? No one knows...
As a Canadian, I really felt a great connection to this, particularly that last bit in which they discussed saying “Sorry” all the time and being a little bit scandalized when someone doesn’t say it in return.
I'm one of those people who always says sorry in public when someone else bumps me or is at fault. I hate myself for it but not as much as I hate them for not saying sorry!
David mitchell, I dunno what it is but I can listen to this man talk for hours. Maybe it's my love of history and intelligent comedians... Also as a poker player and straight male I can't help but be jealous of his wife Veronica cohen Mitchell
This would be so educational to so many people. And when you think about who's the people are that's trying to set different standards of social conduct right now and the way they do it you find it all to have flipped on its head in certain ways. But of course I find myself in a position where i consider my manners the correct set of manners, so any change from any side will seem inappropriate to me. Except I really feel elbows on the table is way better than someone hiding a weapon.
Resting your elbows on the table gives the impression you're not interested in the meal, fed up, too tired to sit up straight. It portrays a nonchalance toward the meal, those who prepared it and those who share it with you. Slumping in one's chair gives the same impression.
I have heard many times that Brits think American clerks who are cheerful in dealing with them are fake and hypocritical, when in fact the clerks often feel that a bad attitude at work makes it harder on everyone, but a smile and a cheerful word often bring a smile and a cheerful word in return, perhaps even from some of the less grumpy Brits. :) It is seen as acting like a grown up and not dumping personal problems on the public. I don't know why our trying to make life less grim is so unacceptable to Brits. How dare we differ from them! But then Americans don't understand chronically apologizing to someone who bumps into us and in fact in big cities it is seen as a sign that a criminal is testing us to see if we would be an easy target, which is why NYers are snarly if you touch them but go out of their way to help you if you are in trouble. Manners don't travel well, whether by region or class. One person's best behavior is another person's outrage. It's only a social lubricant with your own kind. It's social dynamite if you insist on imposing your manners on others who are outside your group.
Agree with the phone thing, I haven't had one for 5 years and am doing fine. It's crazy when you have a few mates over for drinks and there is the one person constantly on their phone, I feel like telling them to bugger off after trying to get a conversation out of them, whilst feeling resentment in my failure to do so.
And when one person gets on their phone often others see that as a reminder or invitation to look at theirs too. And in the end I'm left feeling like a needy puppy because I'm too polite (or shy) to ask others to put the phones down.
The civilising process may have saved lives, but it may also have contributed to various neuroses people have today. Just a thought. I can imagine social evolution is a little too quick for our brains to cope with it.
I think it's very illustrating that the woman "from" Nigeria was actually born and raised in the UK and yet was still "from" Nigeria. Even she thinks of visiting Nigeria as "going home" rather than visiting a foreign country. I'm not trying to pass judgment on it because I know it's a difference in values, but it isn't in interesting? In the US, where you're from, where your home is, those are concepts that apply to a person as an individual. I'm not from the same places my parents are from because we all three were born and raised in different places. In the UK it seems to be more tied to where your family is from, where your ancestry is, rather than where you personally have lived all your life.
Yes the self bubble, the space we consider to be around ourselves, the gap between one and another person we do not know. It is different sizes in different cultures. In Australia it is twice as large as in the UK!
Dawn Juliet Flower I agree we have a LARGE stay out personal area, but we also have a high proportion of people willing to violate that and are seemingly ignorant of it. It drives me nuts. I just want to turn to them and say, 'I keep shuffling away because you are breathing down my neck. Please stop taking it as in invitation to shuffle closer toward me again, as you seem to be doing' But I don't 😒
consider the quietness of Japanese manners and culture. They've had centuries of cities that are so closely packed that sometimes the only privacy you can have is if those around you all agree to ignore you and vice versa. I recently smiled when I listened to a podcast where some comedians/minor celebrities were just noticing, as if discoving for the first time, that aspect to the difference between New York city and L.A.. The beauty that comes from passing your doorman every single day and never once exchanging a word, yet you and they are CLOSE members of a shared community.
Zedex 12 yeah I've heard that about New York, the anonymity of that sort of encounter. As an Australian, I'd simply die of awkwardness to walk straight past someone holding a door for me or even just standing there at work, and not acknowledging them. I found it hard enough in the UK where shop assistants may or may not even so much as say hello. When they didn't, and just grabbed your purchases and put their hand out for your money I would be wondering at first what I had done wrong, and just hating the awfulness and plain awkwardness of the encounter.
I've moved back and forth often between seattle and the very rural surrounding parts of Washington state. I really appreciate smaller cities and towns where it's somewhere in between what you describe. if I feel like being an emotional shut in, I may. at the same time it is not amiss to strike up conversation with strangers. I only recently became aware of ya'll's BNS's. I like that, both the modern versions and the historical roots of them. it reminds me a bit of some restaurants around that have a communal table available. where you just sit down, a bit like taking a seat at the bar, but everyone is facing one another, total strangers, and sharing a meal, making the acquaintance of the other patrons. that seems like the sort of thing that would mortify a "stuffy" englishman but then I remember they have pubs.
@@3122tan I think I read that Arabs are very close, to the point of great discomfort, to Westerners. But then there is huge distancing between Arab males and females, at least as adults.
Good show. Big fan of Mitchell but had to laugh when he kept interrupting the woman who talked about her children learning to wait their turn in speaking
ConfusedConfucius say: The table of no elbows is to improve posture or to enforce better posture. It is easier to slouch/get comfortable when the elbows are on the table. Placing the Wrists on the edge of the table makes the elbows tuck into the ribs.
Ms. Goodnut, a short question - do the points made in this video apply universally in your view? I grew up in Canada and my grandmother had very strict rules on manners that I do not see in my new locale, Arizona.
Hands under the table I was always told could give men the chance to grope or scratch, or worse. Far better to see the hands, and if a woman is groped, she is able to rule out a number of possibilities. I suspect men possibly handling their weapon under the table, is a metaphor, that someone didn't realise was a metaphor.
If you think manners have declined read The Civilising Process. Most rude people are better than the aristocrats in medieval Europe. The details are quite disgusting. (Roughly his view is that civilising means educating what we should find disgusting.)
I don't know who David Mitchell is, but based on this picture, he's the English Rhys Darby. Rhys Darby, is of course, the New Zealish Brady Haran. While, obviously, Brady Haran is the Australian David Mitchell.
I say sorry to strangers but not much to my friends, my friends know that I care about them and only want the best for them so it is pointless to say sorry to them, the word please is like that too
I must put my arms on the table and slouch more often when I have the terrible misfortune of dining in Wetherspoons the food is always fucking dreadful and the service poor, I'd really like my body language to communicate my deep sense of dissatisfaction and disappointment.
Go to rougher pubs, they have all bought sturdy antique tables as the quality is up to the inevitable constant punishment... Plus the chairs that come with the tables of such good build quality are usually up to the job of being used as rudimentary projectile weapons and bludgeoning implements without disintegrating.
you could run through lists and lists of the rude things that people do mobile phones must be top of the list men who go to the toilet in the pub and leave the toilet door wide open old people in the post office who have to waste time telling the clark about their daughters holiday when the clark doesn't even know who her daughter is(no prejudice intended, but ive never seen a young person do that) people who have to shout to someone else from a distance rather than walk over to them that's 4 - any more for any more
I'm an American (not that kind) and i completely agree about the importance of "sorry". ...but i am a bit of an anglophile. What infuriates me? Strangers who respond to a stepping-aside and a friendly smile by hurrying past and scowling affrontedly. Makes me want to trip them in the next aisle. I don't. Usually.
The reason for not putting your elbows on the tables is that it makes it hard for waiters or servants to reach in and serve or remove items from your setting.
When I was a waitress I was standing with an ridiculously large, heavy bowl and plate containing a ridiculously small amount of soup, attempting to serve it to a woman deep in conversation with a colleague. I waited politely, despite having the rest of the table of 12 to serve, until she finally leaned back a little, removing her arms from the table, giving me a look like filth. Unfortunately, although her arms were suitably cleared out of the way, she left her enormous bosom resting on her place setting. Yes, bosom, not boobs- after a certain age and size we qualify for the more matronly term. As I endeavoured to pilot the bowl to the table, the outer rim of the unnecessarily, enormous plate just grazed the front of her chest as I slightly misjudged the landing trajectory, mistakenly expecting the lady to vacate the space adequately. The soup slopped, but was not spilled. Maybe vessel size proved its worth after all. I, of course, apologised profusely- it was a bit of a posh gaff- a country hotel- and the lady was the type to slaughter her neighbour for using the wrong fork, and was rude and dismissive enough to prove to onlookers that she was very well bred, indeed, as only the truly posh can afford to be complete and utter bottoms to the general hoi polloi. I think that the whole affair was due to a glaring omission in most books on etiquette- there are many mentions of elbows but it would be impolite to raise a lady's frontal pillows. It is too private, or perhaps too much of a given. Perhaps what the whole book of good manners could be boiled down to, if we blow away the chaff of etiquette, is be considerate. Like the chestily well-endowed on a crisply laundered tablecloth, it covers most of it.
I doubt they're brighter, if by "bright" you mean having native intelligence. There are well-mannered kids, raised by attentive parents, in any country. It's pretty easy to find shotty kids in either country
I noticed this too. I guess that would be my pet peeve: People perpetuating the misuse of phrases and language. I understand that's what happens to language over time, but it's frustrating to see it happen. A person who says "Don't chew with your mouth full" has clearly either misspoken, misheard or learned the phrase from someone who similarly made a mistake. In any case, I'd prefer it if they made the effort to think about what they said. It isn't just children who do this. Edit: Admittedly, the phrase could be used to mean something like "Don't overfill your mouth", but even then the advice to not chew is utterly unhelpful and I fully expect is only in the phrase to begin with due to the mangling of the two phrases you mentioned.
My peeves are mostly about language. People get very particular about it and like with mislearnt manners, some people mislearn 'rules' and then try to foist them on other people. I get really irritated by people 'correcting' others on 'x and me' thinking it's always 'x and I', when really it's only that when the person is the subject of the sentence rather than the object. "I went to the shop. They overcharged me." ergo "Dave and I went to the shop. They overcharged Dave and ME." There are a load of other 'rules' that don't even exist.
Mike Knowler I think you missed the point of this post. "Don't chew with your mouth full." Simply doesn't make sense...... it has nothing to do with manners. What exactly are you supposed to do with a mouth full of food.....
This is true, you should not fill said cavity with food. A full mouth is equally obnoxious. Eat like a human not an animal. I was just picking on his vernacular.
I disagree with the part about people in the middle ages randomly stabbing one another in pubs. Not saying it never happened, but casual murder has always been legal - not to mention socially frowned upon. Peeing in the corners of rooms was, however, commonplace, as - presumably - was eating with your mouth open and putting your elbows on the table.
were not born megalomaniacs its just that to our parents we are everything and we come before everything so once we get to school we have a hard time figuring out were not actually special and just one more xd
I feel like the evolution on manners was much simpler than that. Humans of every strata emulate their aspirational peers, it's what almost all marketing is based on.
As with most things these days this appears to be dominated by upper middle class voices. Yes, this is entirely a prejudice of mine but there are a highly disproportionate amount of these voices given prominence in the Uk. News. Newspapers. Comedy. Comedy writing. Drama. All highly populated by voices from a roughly similar and specific kind of background. Yes, the working classes are visible too but for the most part, if you think about it, they are predominantly reserved for the finger pointing programs. Programs like Jeremy Kyle, reality tv - the point and judge genre of television. That's where your average working class joe and Jane are given space. When it comes to who are given the opportunities to write, create, present those who mound news and determine what's should matter in life etc, they are upper middle class voices.
I'm reading this just as David is interviewing the man about the story in the Iceland. And the piece kicked off with the butcher at the market. I don't think those are upper middle class voices, are they? (I'm American, so I don't have quite as nuanced an understanding of UK accents and class).
If the picture isn't moving, that's what you're supposed to see. It was a radio program. There's no video to go with it, so it's a still pic of Mitchell at a table.
Stopped listening after the assertion that medieval people regularly murdered each other over simple arguments. If you invite that comparison you invite me to investigate what goes on today - and I'm betting for every instance in the entire medieval period we can find documented, I can find ten from the last decade. Even if the comparison were true, the only reason to do it is to pretend we've got things better societally than medieval people did. It shuts down investigation into how they really lived. It pushes us further into the blunder of not knowing history and therefore repeating it.
I'd take that action if we adjusted for population increase. We're safer now than ever and i'd wager that extends to dueling, fighting words, etc. it wouldn't be a sporting wager if I had researched this aforehand so there's that.
"Safer now than ever".... really? At the age of four I was allowed to roam freely wherever I wished. In the street, back in the woods out of sight... anywhere. Admittedly I was a bit older (8) when I was allowed to roam freely in New Orleans, which has never been known as a paragon of safety. My 7yo daughter got me slapped with actual criminal charges when she walked around the block by herself, on the sidewalk, without my knowledge. I've confirmed with the county police on three occasions that they can charge me with felony neglect if a child less than 9 years old in my care is left unattended at all, for any length of time. Did they start doing this because of an overall perception of how safe we all are? This all happened in the last fifteen years. Someone really ought to tell the authorities how safe things are. They don't seem to have gotten the memo.
how many people do you know with miner's black lung? been chased by a sabertooth lately? how many of the kids you went to school with got polio? the consumption? I agree that our collective worry does not reflect the lack of things to worry about.
I think I see the problem. You're focusing on where I said "pretend we've got things better societally than medieval people". Let me clarify. This is a broadcast about manners. The clear implication was that medieval people thought murdering each other over pub arguments was within the realm of good manners. What I intended to say is, not only is this laughably untrue, but it didn't happen then any more than it happens today, where we ostensibly do NOT consider it good manners. The only point in making this assertion is, indeed, to make it sound like medieval people were less mannerly than we are. But it has a secondary effect of shutting down investigation into how they lived. For instance, did you know about the industrial revolution - of the 12th and 13th centuries? Did you know that 700 years ago there were churches that had astronomical clocks that predicted eclipses? How many medieval buildings still exist in their mostly original form, centuries later? How many 20th century buildings of note are already falling apart? Frank Lloyd Wright couldn't even build houses that kept the rain out. The point is, nobody knows any of this stuff unless they're a nerd for it. The entire era just gets dismissed because "they murdered each other at pub". There is a hell of a lot to learn from those people - yes, even in the realm of medicine - and none of it gets learned if the overall attitude is willful ignorance for reasons which are demonstrably false.
You were making good points then ruined it by doing exactly what you were blaming others for doing, making statements that were laughably untrue, about Frank Lloyd Wright being incapable of building houses that kept the rain out. (Do you have a link for that? Perhaps a study of every one of his houses that showed that not one kept the rain out although he never gave up trying to remedy that with no success?) You would be more persuasive if you stuck to facts, particularly when you are arguing that people should stick to facts. :)
There's not such thing like high criminality in the 60's whatsoever... Mitchell completely ignored the lack of West manners in indigenous communities. I would say let's go back to the 60'S! if you'll pardon the pun...
The market trader describing foreigners as "give take take". Kinda reminds me of the British empire >> give, take take, land theft, enslave, genocide. If Britain didn't do all that, perhaps the foreigners wouldn't have to know your country. Remember, if it wasn't for these foreigners slave money, britain wouldn't have funded much of the industrial revolution, railways, banks, umiversities, Stately homes, cathedrals, etc..
bg6b7bft It's become a bit of a joke as it's easy to trip over your tongue and mix up "don't chew with your mouth open" (I *so* wish someone would hammer this into footie managers as they chew gum during a match so much that you can tell which ones still have their tonsils!), with "don't speak with your mouth full". Also, as has been noted elsewhere, someone who stuffs their mouth to absolute capacity, looks bloody awful! So not chewing with a full mouth isn't so far out.
Can we not add 'Not talking with Australian high rising terminal' to any future manners list please? Every child in the interviews seemed to be afflicted with this annoying trait.
Personally, I'd like to add, "Don't carp on about the way people talk" to the list of manners. Vocal accents are not a question of manners, and one accent is no better or worse than another.
It's called Australian, but it derives from Irish and Scots. Irish speakers invariably rise at the end of sentences while Scottish speakers tend to rise at the end of (primarily) stressed words. In America we call it "valley girl."
Its why they stay selfish become little shits and grow up to be massive arseholes that's the bigger question... And quite how they frequently find them selves in managerial positions.
'don't bother come out', 'don't bother come out'.. you know what's worse manners than anyone glued to their phone are people born and bred in the UK deliberately speaking broken English.. Perhaps your underwhelming stereotypical company is what's driving them away from social contact with you.
We import people from all over the world and you seriously expect our culture not to be affected at all? The British people will soon be a minority in Britain. It's incredibly naïve to not expect our traditions and culture to not be minimized also.
but British by definition is a conglomeration of hundreds of cultures, Angles, saxons, Norman, celt... We've absorbed them all, after a couple of generations it averages out. There's change but the definition is still British.
Dean Sammut Are you seriously suggesting that the Anglo-Saxon culture had no affect on the pagan Celt culture we had at the time? And all those cultures have something in common, they were all created by European Caucasians who wont exist in a couple of generations if our low birth rates and our demographic replacement by immigrants. Britain "by definition" is a country of White Caucasians and it has been that way for 10s of thousands of years, until the Marxists opened the flood gates in only the last century. It's the British people that make Britain what it is, not the dirt.
+jordiejonny I remember the good old days when it was perfectly ok to objectify women or black up and sing patronising songs on mainstream TV on a saturday night. What ever happened to those good manners of the 70s? You're right. We've really slipped.
em diar Oh yeah because Political correctness is just great isn't it? It's not as if 80% of the population despise it or anything... God bless our safe spaces and protect us from anything that could conceivably be offensive ty.
jordiejonny Most people have no idea what the term "political correctness" actually means, let alone "politeness". You seem to be arguing that the manners you fondly (though erroneously nostalgically) associate with Britishness are being eroded by foreigners whilst simultaneously lamenting that they have made it impossible to be rude to people and get away with it. I don't expect the irony of this is obvious to you,
Europe civilized the world. There is no argument and you know it. All of modern life comes from Europe and its child, America. Look around your world - everything was invented and developed by America and Europe.
I couldn't imagine anyone better than David to do this series
David’s voice feels like a warm hug/cuddle, even though David would feel awkward if he had to give you one in real life!
I will quote a other comedian here: Dara O Briain: " the reason we say elbows of the table to our kids is because our parents said elbows of the table to us, and the reason they said elbows of the table to us is because there parents said elbows of the table to them, and frankly that's how religion gets started".
I think elbows on the table is fine wear i am from. of course that's because we have a table large enough to have 4 plates of food and some pots and stuff without cramping every cm off space.
just something i missed but i have edit away that.
Harrylechat01 well you found a other off. but i am not editing that becuase. it dose not mather.
Harrylechat01 i wrote cm before off, so if you really care, them it is just your own fault. it was worng gamma that i bet you din't care about, or notice.
Harrylechat01 are you bored? o do you think this is a engaging conversation of any sorts especially when you are behaving childish.
It's OFF, not of...the table.
'Sorry is social lubricant' couldn't agree more, I say sorry so many times a day
+Ning Dingus I notice the British say "oop sorry" a lot
we do
+Ning Dingus Often when I forget to use actual lubricant.
+Terrach Wilson , and us Kiwi's too.
Gal Dagon hahahah, thats too funny
Mitchell please talk more about everything
This is the best youtube recommendation I have ever gotten.
+burtlangoustine1 that's because mole people run CZcams
5 years later and this still holds profoundly true
17:25, I can sense the nervousness of Mitchell when talking to that bloke.
Creepy thing is CZcams recommended this to me on the first week of january... 6 years later 😳
Just a couple weeks later for me! But I know I've listened to this before.
I do so like David Mitchell
Elbows on table is bad manners because:
1. I say so (my fathers explanation)
2. One puts his weight on the table and starts to shake the whole thing as soon as one changes position (my grandmothers explanation)
3. You suggest/convey the bad manners of your family every time you're invited to other tables (my mothers explanation)
4. You build up to a bad posture of your upper body that way (my explanation)
5. You cannot use your weapons properly - I loved the german girls 'don't put your hands under the table'-explanation. Never heard that myself, but it sounds just right...
11Kralle and so we have it - when two alternate versions of the same behaviour (elbows on table) are both seen as mannered by different cultures we see that it's non universal and therefore relatively useless in an environment populated from people from many cultures.
easyTree77
Is there a culture in which the elbows have to go on the table? Those who sit on the ground or haven't any furniture would have to lie down for that... Got to read my "Grobianus" for some real clues :D
11Kralle *shrug* if not there should be - if only to demonstrate that it's meaningless - if people don't know why it's (for any particular rule) considered ill mannered, in a way which can be coherently explained such that transcends culture - what value is it and how would one escape mockery by a leading class whom you wish to emulate?
@@easyTree77 No culture sees it as good manners. It's either neutral or deprecated. And you meant alternative not alternate (and no, they don't mean the same thing).
Very interesting. I love David Mitchell
That last point about bumping into someone and it's both your faults, and you apologise and the other person doesn't... yes, David, I completely agree. It sends me into an internal rage (of course I'm too polite to vocalise said rage, but still).
I'm so glad you uploaded this. I was randomly searching 'David Mitchell' to see if anything new had come out and this made my day. Thank you :)
+Nole Haha, that's exactly what I did!! xD
+philosyche Same here.
same :)
+Nole me also, exactly what I did. Thanks :)
Lol, same!
After 10 minutes I'm still on the razor's edge of not finding this interesting to enough continue listening to. It's exhilarating. Will I keep listening? Will I turn it off? No one knows...
After two lines I’m bored of reading you
As a Canadian, I really felt a great connection to this, particularly that last bit in which they discussed saying “Sorry” all the time and being a little bit scandalized when someone doesn’t say it in return.
'I've got to look interested, keep nodding, nodding, and a bit of eyebrows.'
it's 2021... I would love to hear David's angry logic monologue about state of this fucking planet.
I'm one of those people who always says sorry in public when someone else bumps me or is at fault. I hate myself for it but not as much as I hate them for not saying sorry!
Quite nice to hear a bunch of well educated and clear thinking kids who know how to express themselves...
Listening to this in the first week of January 2020. It's well written, concise and a joy of listen to.
This needed more attention in the media..
Alex Becker this *is* the media now
I zone out quite a lot and always feel guilty that I've ignored someone by accident.
I zone out on purpose gives people a nice big hint that they are boring several kinds of fuck out of you.
Why hint? Just ask to change the subject, or excuse yourself, or otherwise use your words. Grownups know how to do that.
Brilliant subject!
David mitchell, I dunno what it is but I can listen to this man talk for hours. Maybe it's my love of history and intelligent comedians... Also as a poker player and straight male I can't help but be jealous of his wife Veronica cohen Mitchell
*Victoria.
Coren
She's quite hot, all things considered.
I LOVE Mrs Veronica Cohen Mitchell... in a completely appropriate way.
Victoria Coren Mitchell.
This would be so educational to so many people. And when you think about who's the people are that's trying to set different standards of social conduct right now and the way they do it you find it all to have flipped on its head in certain ways.
But of course I find myself in a position where i consider my manners the correct set of manners, so any change from any side will seem inappropriate to me.
Except I really feel elbows on the table is way better than someone hiding a weapon.
Is You Tube broken? It has recommended something which actually interests me. That can't be right.....
Fantastic.
Resting your elbows on the table gives the impression you're not interested in the meal, fed up, too tired to sit up straight. It portrays a nonchalance toward the meal, those who prepared it and those who share it with you. Slumping in one's chair gives the same impression.
Excellent explaination!☺
I have heard many times that Brits think American clerks who are cheerful in dealing with them are fake and hypocritical, when in fact the clerks often feel that a bad attitude at work makes it harder on everyone, but a smile and a cheerful word often bring a smile and a cheerful word in return, perhaps even from some of the less grumpy Brits. :) It is seen as acting like a grown up and not dumping personal problems on the public. I don't know why our trying to make life less grim is so unacceptable to Brits. How dare we differ from them! But then Americans don't understand chronically apologizing to someone who bumps into us and in fact in big cities it is seen as a sign that a criminal is testing us to see if we would be an easy target, which is why NYers are snarly if you touch them but go out of their way to help you if you are in trouble. Manners don't travel well, whether by region or class. One person's best behavior is another person's outrage. It's only a social lubricant with your own kind. It's social dynamite if you insist on imposing your manners on others who are outside your group.
My new favorite is a person on the phone or at a shop telling you unpleasant news (WE ARE OUT OF THAT ITEM) will say "WE are so sorry " "WE'RE SORRY"
Thank you 💗
6:13 "DONT CHEW WITH YOUR MOUTH FULL"???
How else are you going to swallow your food?
Agree with the phone thing, I haven't had one for 5 years and am doing fine.
It's crazy when you have a few mates over for drinks and there is the one person constantly on their phone, I feel like telling them to bugger off after trying to get a conversation out of them, whilst feeling resentment in my failure to do so.
And when one person gets on their phone often others see that as a reminder or invitation to look at theirs too. And in the end I'm left feeling like a needy puppy because I'm too polite (or shy) to ask others to put the phones down.
The civilising process may have saved lives, but it may also have contributed to various neuroses people have today. Just a thought. I can imagine social evolution is a little too quick for our brains to cope with it.
Hoganply nice photo 😉
As soon as I heard the good professor's name, all I could think of was, "What? Old Stinker Pinker?"
Too bad this isnt on itunes. Would be nice to listen to this while walking with my legs.
Mitchell should team up with Armando Ianucci, Charlie Brooker. a match made in heaven
Fuck YES
In a gay way?
Christ On A Mtb ?????
+Prog4Prog would that programme be the three of them queering each other up?
Christ On A Mtb I'm thinking more of a satire comedy show mate but whatever floats your boat..
The Phone Zone - that's a book waiting to be written.
I think it's very illustrating that the woman "from" Nigeria was actually born and raised in the UK and yet was still "from" Nigeria. Even she thinks of visiting Nigeria as "going home" rather than visiting a foreign country. I'm not trying to pass judgment on it because I know it's a difference in values, but it isn't in interesting? In the US, where you're from, where your home is, those are concepts that apply to a person as an individual. I'm not from the same places my parents are from because we all three were born and raised in different places. In the UK it seems to be more tied to where your family is from, where your ancestry is, rather than where you personally have lived all your life.
Manners maketh man? N a woman. Take my word...the golden book of behavioral code. Hugs to you.
Cool
21:18 love this part.
Yes the self bubble, the space we consider to be around ourselves, the gap between one and another person we do not know. It is different sizes in different cultures. In Australia it is twice as large as in the UK!
Dawn Juliet Flower I agree we have a LARGE stay out personal area, but we also have a high proportion of people willing to violate that and are seemingly ignorant of it. It drives me nuts. I just want to turn to them and say, 'I keep shuffling away because you are breathing down my neck. Please stop taking it as in invitation to shuffle closer toward me again, as you seem to be doing'
But I don't 😒
consider the quietness of Japanese manners and culture. They've had centuries of cities that are so closely packed that sometimes the only privacy you can have is if those around you all agree to ignore you and vice versa. I recently smiled when I listened to a podcast where some comedians/minor celebrities were just noticing, as if discoving for the first time, that aspect to the difference between New York city and L.A.. The beauty that comes from passing your doorman every single day and never once exchanging a word, yet you and they are CLOSE members of a shared community.
Zedex 12 yeah I've heard that about New York, the anonymity of that sort of encounter. As an Australian, I'd simply die of awkwardness to walk straight past someone holding a door for me or even just standing there at work, and not acknowledging them. I found it hard enough in the UK where shop assistants may or may not even so much as say hello. When they didn't, and just grabbed your purchases and put their hand out for your money I would be wondering at first what I had done wrong, and just hating the awfulness and plain awkwardness of the encounter.
I've moved back and forth often between seattle and the very rural surrounding parts of Washington state. I really appreciate smaller cities and towns where it's somewhere in between what you describe. if I feel like being an emotional shut in, I may. at the same time it is not amiss to strike up conversation with strangers.
I only recently became aware of ya'll's BNS's. I like that, both the modern versions and the historical roots of them. it reminds me a bit of some restaurants around that have a communal table available. where you just sit down, a bit like taking a seat at the bar, but everyone is facing one another, total strangers, and sharing a meal, making the acquaintance of the other patrons. that seems like the sort of thing that would mortify a "stuffy" englishman but then I remember they have pubs.
@@3122tan I think I read that Arabs are very close, to the point of great discomfort, to Westerners.
But then there is huge distancing between Arab males and females, at least as adults.
Heh Bless! Those kids; I can just imagine their mum vetting them the night before Dave (and crew) comes round. XD
Good show. Big fan of Mitchell but had to laugh when he kept interrupting the woman who talked about her children learning to wait their turn in speaking
ConfusedConfucius say: The table of no elbows is to improve posture or to enforce better posture. It is easier to slouch/get comfortable when the elbows are on the table. Placing the Wrists on the edge of the table makes the elbows tuck into the ribs.
I started listening because I thought it would be a short piece. Oh hell.
Oh, Jesus.
Where's my fucking Ritalin when I need you!
Is this tedious to anyone else? Am I alone?
I don't knoww who he is talking to now but they are an idiot.
And yes that is grammatical you fucks.
Absolutely true David. Civilising children starts at school. Which is why home schooling and religious schools are wholly unacceptable.
Home schooling and religious schools belong to the set of schools. As you pointed out.
This is from 2016 - not 2017. You can see from the upload date.
Ms. Goodnut, a short question - do the points made in this video apply universally in your view? I grew up in Canada and my grandmother had very strict rules on manners that I do not see in my new locale, Arizona.
Not at all. That's why you will probably violate a rule when you first visit another culture or subculture.
Could be hiding a weapon if you don´t have the arm on your table? Hahaha!
Hands under the table I was always told could give men the chance to grope or scratch, or worse.
Far better to see the hands, and if a woman is groped, she is able to rule out a number of possibilities.
I suspect men possibly handling their weapon under the table, is a metaphor, that someone didn't realise was a metaphor.
Most Americans say sorry quite a lot, same as the British.
If you think manners have declined read The Civilising Process. Most rude people are better than the aristocrats in medieval Europe. The details are quite disgusting. (Roughly his view is that civilising means educating what we should find disgusting.)
Where's this restaurant?
Would it be a breach of manners to point out that you got the pronunciation of Norbert Elias wrong and Steven Pinker got it right?
Timwi Heizmann .....no, but you could fuck off?
I don't know who David Mitchell is, but based on this picture, he's the English Rhys Darby.
Rhys Darby, is of course, the New Zealish Brady Haran.
While, obviously, Brady Haran is the Australian David Mitchell.
i've no idea who david mitchell is supposed to be in these other countries
They're just dudes who look similar to one another.
I say sorry to strangers but not much to my friends, my friends know that I care about them and only want the best for them so it is pointless to say sorry to them, the word please is like that too
Oof. Your friends and family are the ones you should say it to most.
i think elbows off the table is to prevent the table from shaking
Maybe people should just buy proper tables instead of handing out safety guidelines.
lol i like a nice sturdy table i can put my elbows on too
I must put my arms on the table and slouch more often when I have the terrible misfortune of dining in Wetherspoons the food is always fucking dreadful and the service poor, I'd really like my body language to communicate my deep sense of dissatisfaction and disappointment.
Go to rougher pubs, they have all bought sturdy antique tables as the quality is up to the inevitable constant punishment...
Plus the chairs that come with the tables of such good build quality are usually up to the job of being used as rudimentary projectile weapons and bludgeoning implements without disintegrating.
pixiniarts truly enlightened =)
7:43 Oh elbow elbow elbow maybe you should get an elbow CD David
you could run through lists and lists of the rude things that people do
mobile phones must be top of the list
men who go to the toilet in the pub and leave the toilet door wide open
old people in the post office who have to waste time telling the clark about their daughters holiday when the clark doesn't even know who her daughter is(no prejudice intended, but ive never seen a young person do that)
people who have to shout to someone else from a distance rather than walk over to them
that's 4 - any more for any more
that end with the sorry was much a Mark thing to say
I'm an American (not that kind) and i completely agree about the importance of "sorry". ...but i am a bit of an anglophile. What infuriates me? Strangers who respond to a stepping-aside and a friendly smile by hurrying past and scowling affrontedly. Makes me want to trip them in the next aisle.
I don't.
Usually.
'don't chew with food in your mouth' eh?
With like
Where does Stephen Pinker's accent come from? English isn't my first language so I can't quite place it.
He sounds like a well educated Canadian.
And after a brief spot of research, it seems he's a well educated Canadian.
Was one of those kids named Kale?
Leave the cutlery alone, Mitchell, or the Dee-Dar Mafia will 'ave thi.
The reason for not putting your elbows on the tables is that it makes it hard for waiters or servants to reach in and serve or remove items from your setting.
When I was a waitress I was standing with an ridiculously large, heavy bowl and plate containing a ridiculously small amount of soup, attempting to serve it to a woman deep in conversation with a colleague. I waited politely, despite having the rest of the table of 12 to serve, until she finally leaned back a little, removing her arms from the table, giving me a look like filth. Unfortunately, although her arms were suitably cleared out of the way, she left her enormous bosom resting on her place setting. Yes, bosom, not boobs- after a certain age and size we qualify for the more matronly term. As I endeavoured to pilot the bowl to the table, the outer rim of the unnecessarily, enormous plate just grazed the front of her chest as I slightly misjudged the landing trajectory, mistakenly expecting the lady to vacate the space adequately. The soup slopped, but was not spilled. Maybe vessel size proved its worth after all. I, of course, apologised profusely- it was a bit of a posh gaff- a country hotel- and the lady was the type to slaughter her neighbour for using the wrong fork, and was rude and dismissive enough to prove to onlookers that she was very well bred, indeed, as only the truly posh can afford to be complete and utter bottoms to the general hoi polloi. I think that the whole affair was due to a glaring omission in most books on etiquette- there are many mentions of elbows but it would be impolite to raise a lady's frontal pillows. It is too private, or perhaps too much of a given. Perhaps what the whole book of good manners could be boiled down to, if we blow away the chaff of etiquette, is be considerate. Like the chestily well-endowed on a crisply laundered tablecloth, it covers most of it.
@@lornacameron-burnett5040 Beautifully told.
Pardon my boardinghouse reach!
Unbuttoned shirt showing your chest hair might be considered bad manners, or at least bad taste...
Simona Khara ..especially for women. Girls, your hairy chests are off-putting!😂
Lick the spoon, do it! I know you want to!
England definitely has better spoken and mannered children than the US. probably a lot brighter as well.
I doubt they're brighter, if by "bright" you mean having native intelligence. There are well-mannered kids, raised by attentive parents, in any country. It's pretty easy to find shotty kids in either country
I’ve always said “even the fucking Nazis had god damn manners”
Poor Oshan... and his etiquette minefield.
Oh the rising intonation in the childrens' speech :/
manners maketh a man 💝
Throwing knives good or
It probabaly took up th 6th or 7th caveman until the first "The youth of today..."
Don't chew with your mouth full? I've heard don't chew with your mouth open or don't talk with your mouth full. What am I missing?
I noticed this too. I guess that would be my pet peeve: People perpetuating the misuse of phrases and language. I understand that's what happens to language over time, but it's frustrating to see it happen. A person who says "Don't chew with your mouth full" has clearly either misspoken, misheard or learned the phrase from someone who similarly made a mistake. In any case, I'd prefer it if they made the effort to think about what they said. It isn't just children who do this.
Edit: Admittedly, the phrase could be used to mean something like "Don't overfill your mouth", but even then the advice to not chew is utterly unhelpful and I fully expect is only in the phrase to begin with due to the mangling of the two phrases you mentioned.
My peeves are mostly about language. People get very particular about it and like with mislearnt manners, some people mislearn 'rules' and then try to foist them on other people. I get really irritated by people 'correcting' others on 'x and me' thinking it's always 'x and I', when really it's only that when the person is the subject of the sentence rather than the object. "I went to the shop. They overcharged me." ergo "Dave and I went to the shop. They overcharged Dave and ME."
There are a load of other 'rules' that don't even exist.
Mike Knowler I think you missed the point of this post. "Don't chew with your mouth full." Simply doesn't make sense...... it has nothing to do with manners. What exactly are you supposed to do with a mouth full of food.....
This is true, you should not fill said cavity with food. A full mouth is equally obnoxious. Eat like a human not an animal. I was just picking on his vernacular.
I've been doing it wrong....all this time! ;)
I disagree with the part about people in the middle ages randomly stabbing one another in pubs. Not saying it never happened, but casual murder has always been legal - not to mention socially frowned upon. Peeing in the corners of rooms was, however, commonplace, as - presumably - was eating with your mouth open and putting your elbows on the table.
Without doing a second pass of your comment, you have implied that murder is still legal.
I always say the English confuse etiquette for manners.
abadani56 .....yawn, maybe telling you to fuckoff is good etiquette, but bad manners?
were not born megalomaniacs its just that to our parents we are everything and we come before everything so once we get to school we have a hard time figuring out were not actually special and just one more xd
I feel like the evolution on manners was much simpler than that. Humans of every strata emulate their aspirational peers, it's what almost all marketing is based on.
As with most things these days this appears to be dominated by upper middle class voices. Yes, this is entirely a prejudice of mine but there are a highly disproportionate amount of these voices given prominence in the Uk. News. Newspapers. Comedy. Comedy writing. Drama. All highly populated by voices from a roughly similar and specific kind of background.
Yes, the working classes are visible too but for the most part, if you think about it, they are predominantly reserved for the finger pointing programs. Programs like Jeremy Kyle, reality tv - the point and judge genre of television. That's where your average working class joe and Jane are given space. When it comes to who are given the opportunities to write, create, present those who mound news and determine what's should matter in life etc, they are upper middle class voices.
I'm reading this just as David is interviewing the man about the story in the Iceland. And the piece kicked off with the butcher at the market. I don't think those are upper middle class voices, are they? (I'm American, so I don't have quite as nuanced an understanding of UK accents and class).
This won't play for me - any ideas??
If the picture isn't moving, that's what you're supposed to see. It was a radio program. There's no video to go with it, so it's a still pic of Mitchell at a table.
I wonder if David shoots himself in the head at the end of the 27m 32s chat about manners.
such an iirritating man
Stopped listening after the assertion that medieval people regularly murdered each other over simple arguments. If you invite that comparison you invite me to investigate what goes on today - and I'm betting for every instance in the entire medieval period we can find documented, I can find ten from the last decade.
Even if the comparison were true, the only reason to do it is to pretend we've got things better societally than medieval people did. It shuts down investigation into how they really lived. It pushes us further into the blunder of not knowing history and therefore repeating it.
I'd take that action if we adjusted for population increase.
We're safer now than ever and i'd wager that extends to dueling, fighting words, etc.
it wouldn't be a sporting wager if I had researched this aforehand so there's that.
"Safer now than ever".... really? At the age of four I was allowed to roam freely wherever I wished. In the street, back in the woods out of sight... anywhere. Admittedly I was a bit older (8) when I was allowed to roam freely in New Orleans, which has never been known as a paragon of safety.
My 7yo daughter got me slapped with actual criminal charges when she walked around the block by herself, on the sidewalk, without my knowledge. I've confirmed with the county police on three occasions that they can charge me with felony neglect if a child less than 9 years old in my care is left unattended at all, for any length of time.
Did they start doing this because of an overall perception of how safe we all are? This all happened in the last fifteen years. Someone really ought to tell the authorities how safe things are. They don't seem to have gotten the memo.
how many people do you know with miner's black lung?
been chased by a sabertooth lately?
how many of the kids you went to school with got polio? the consumption?
I agree that our collective worry does not reflect the lack of things to worry about.
I think I see the problem. You're focusing on where I said "pretend we've got things better societally than medieval people".
Let me clarify.
This is a broadcast about manners. The clear implication was that medieval people thought murdering each other over pub arguments was within the realm of good manners.
What I intended to say is, not only is this laughably untrue, but it didn't happen then any more than it happens today, where we ostensibly do NOT consider it good manners.
The only point in making this assertion is, indeed, to make it sound like medieval people were less mannerly than we are.
But it has a secondary effect of shutting down investigation into how they lived.
For instance, did you know about the industrial revolution - of the 12th and 13th centuries? Did you know that 700 years ago there were churches that had astronomical clocks that predicted eclipses? How many medieval buildings still exist in their mostly original form, centuries later? How many 20th century buildings of note are already falling apart? Frank Lloyd Wright couldn't even build houses that kept the rain out.
The point is, nobody knows any of this stuff unless they're a nerd for it. The entire era just gets dismissed because "they murdered each other at pub". There is a hell of a lot to learn from those people - yes, even in the realm of medicine - and none of it gets learned if the overall attitude is willful ignorance for reasons which are demonstrably false.
You were making good points then ruined it by doing exactly what you were blaming others for doing, making statements that were laughably untrue, about Frank Lloyd Wright being incapable of building houses that kept the rain out. (Do you have a link for that? Perhaps a study of every one of his houses that showed that not one kept the rain out although he never gave up trying to remedy that with no success?) You would be more persuasive if you stuck to facts, particularly when you are arguing that people should stick to facts. :)
There's not such thing like high criminality in the 60's whatsoever...
Mitchell completely ignored the lack of West manners in indigenous communities.
I would say let's go back to the 60'S! if you'll pardon the pun...
The market trader describing foreigners as "give take take". Kinda reminds me of the British empire >> give, take take, land theft, enslave, genocide. If Britain didn't do all that, perhaps the foreigners wouldn't have to know your country. Remember, if it wasn't for these foreigners slave money, britain wouldn't have funded much of the industrial revolution, railways, banks, umiversities, Stately homes, cathedrals, etc..
Don't chew with your mouth full? You're only supposed to chew with it empty?
You don't fill it full
bg6b7bft It's become a bit of a joke as it's easy to trip over your tongue and mix up "don't chew with your mouth open" (I *so* wish someone would hammer this into footie managers as they chew gum during a match so much that you can tell which ones still have their tonsils!), with "don't speak with your mouth full". Also, as has been noted elsewhere, someone who stuffs their mouth to absolute capacity, looks bloody awful! So not chewing with a full mouth isn't so far out.
Can we not add 'Not talking with Australian high rising terminal' to any future manners list please? Every child in the interviews seemed to be afflicted with this annoying trait.
No?
OK!
Personally, I'd like to add, "Don't carp on about the way people talk" to the list of manners. Vocal accents are not a question of manners, and one accent is no better or worse than another.
Only the Queen's English will be an acceptable way of talking.
It's called Australian, but it derives from Irish and Scots. Irish speakers invariably rise at the end of sentences while Scottish speakers tend to rise at the end of (primarily) stressed words. In America we call it "valley girl."
Oh my god, what are those names at 6:46? How middle class can you get?
its pronounced ush-een
"Etiquette is a French word"
So is manners. Manières....
Wonder why children are born so selfish?
Because self interest is a healthy and normal attitude to have.
A. Mostert So why do we consider it bad manners when we get older?
For the reasons explained in the video. If everyone acted on their innate self interests - or hedonism - it'd be utter chaos.
Its why they stay selfish become little shits and grow up to be massive arseholes that's the bigger question...
And quite how they frequently find them selves in managerial positions.
I don't understand how it can be considered healthy and normal but also utter chaos?
'don't bother come out', 'don't bother come out'.. you know what's worse manners than anyone glued to their phone are people born and bred in the UK deliberately speaking broken English.. Perhaps your underwhelming stereotypical company is what's driving them away from social contact with you.
You are a wanker
Were talking about brainwashing here right?
We import people from all over the world and you seriously expect our culture not to be affected at all? The British people will soon be a minority in Britain. It's incredibly naïve to not expect our traditions and culture to not be minimized also.
but British by definition is a conglomeration of hundreds of cultures, Angles, saxons, Norman, celt... We've absorbed them all, after a couple of generations it averages out. There's change but the definition is still British.
Dean Sammut Are you seriously suggesting that the Anglo-Saxon culture had no affect on the pagan Celt culture we had at the time? And all those cultures have something in common, they were all created by European Caucasians who wont exist in a couple of generations if our low birth rates and our demographic replacement by immigrants. Britain "by definition" is a country of White Caucasians and it has been that way for 10s of thousands of years, until the Marxists opened the flood gates in only the last century.
It's the British people that make Britain what it is, not the dirt.
+jordiejonny I remember the good old days when it was perfectly ok to objectify women or black up and sing patronising songs on mainstream TV on a saturday night. What ever happened to those good manners of the 70s? You're right. We've really slipped.
em diar Oh yeah because Political correctness is just great isn't it? It's not as if 80% of the population despise it or anything... God bless our safe spaces and protect us from anything that could conceivably be offensive ty.
jordiejonny Most people have no idea what the term "political correctness" actually means, let alone "politeness". You seem to be arguing that the manners you fondly (though erroneously nostalgically) associate with Britishness are being eroded by foreigners whilst simultaneously lamenting that they have made it impossible to be rude to people and get away with it. I don't expect the irony of this is obvious to you,
Europe civilized the world. There is no argument and you know it. All of modern life comes from Europe and its child, America. Look around your world - everything was invented and developed by America and Europe.
As with everything there is a way to "overdo" manners ... and this is called political "correctness", which made it bad again.