Designing The Tricky Bit At The Front - Suspension And Steering For The Wooden EBike / ECar
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- čas přidán 12. 05. 2023
- Who'd have thought it was so compicated getting a car to go round a corner! Can we design a four-wheeled pedal-assist car - and make it out of plywood??
Here's our main CZcams channel.. / wayoutwestx2
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I find it intriguing when you reveal a little about your past - I never knew you had a toy shop.
It was something I did when I was a single parent with two boys. We all really liked it for a while, but it never made any money..
@@wayoutwest-workshopstuff6299
Dear Inventor Tim.
Unfortunately the things we like to do make no money often, sigh. But I bet you and your boys had a blast nevertheless! 😁 ;-)
Sincerely yours.
@@wayoutwest-workshopstuff6299 I would by a toy 😊
@@wayoutwest-workshopstuff6299 maybe to raise funds for a project when you have a bit of downtime you could set up an online shop and sell toys again, i know I’d buy some
This is what is commonly known as R&D.... Research and Development... It is good to see you are not starting from scratch and using various known principles to get the system working in principle first off.
Love watching your thought process Tim.
Might be worth quickly investigating all the early modern car solutions. The mini, the Fiat 500, deux cheveaux, VW bug, early Japanese designs. Those designers all wrestled with exactly the same problems and the geometry of their solutions might give some ideas.
Another thought, related to the plywood. I know somebody who has a business making furniture out of single sheets of plywood. He designs in such a way that there’s essentially no waste after he has cut the CNC pieces out of a sheet. It might be good to think about this as you are designing- how to interlock the various shapes so you minimize material cost and waste. Also, it’s cool😁
I recommend building a stiff front axle with one leaf spring at the center - basically very similar to the front axle of the tractor, but the center pin is replaced with the spring. It is a simple design and does not require many joints.
We just love you TiM and Sandra we love all your inventions.Have a wonderful weekend.🍄🍄🍄🐞🐞🐞🐞🪴🪴🪴🎋🦾🦾🇪🇺🇪🇺🇪🇺
I have gone through a similar project. My conclusion was that a stiff axle, like a tractor, but hinged with springs is a very good solution.
Tim is so much smarter than I am! I would've never figured any of that stuff!
I love how you talk through your thought process. Thank you for sharing!
Many more suspension systems out there. Maybe try a trailing arm setup that is used in early dune buggies.
When I first subscribed I didn't really realize what a crafty bugger you are. You're probably in my top 10 of CZcams subs. You share the field with ClickSpring, Mustie1 and the like. Good company.
Don't forget your Ackermann steering geometry!
When the suspension is working, the distance between the wheels changes. If the connecting rod is a one piece rod, it doesn't follow this, and it affects the steering, or something might break.
If You use old motorbike shock absorbers with built in springs, You might spare some weight. And if You connect this shock absorbers to the frame, and not to the other swinging arm, it adds to the stability.
Good luck! 😊
It's great to see your thought processes as you work on this.
Having once built a fast (160 km/h) motorvehicle from scratch all by myself, I do know how much brain power you have to put in suspension, axle geometry and alignment. I would say that shock absorbers/damper are dispensable on your very interesting project. Many mopeds going 50km/h do only have spring action front forks, but no dampening. Keep the good content going! Cheers from Germany!
I loved seeing your small versions, seeing you work through the issues. Having all the toys sure makes for a lot of fun! 😂
Tim you really are a man of extreme ingenuity and creativity......brilliant....👍👍👍👍
This is going to be an exciting project. If nothing else works out. I'm sensing a big opportunity in selling those extra parts as a model car type puzzle. You could sell quite a few to help fund your full size project.
I love your designs. They show such brilliance. By the way, I think it was Volkswagens which had a similar suspension. In high school one teacher had a small car that several brawny students kept picking up after it was parked. Soon as the wheels were off the ground they all rotated inward. It made the car look like it was standing on tip-toe. It straightened out of course soon as the teacher began driving away but looked really odd for a few moments and gave us all quite a laugh.
Love seeing all the technical stuff in the comments, lots of excellent information here!
With the mini car I'm building, the front axle is a box beam with the wheels mounted on each side by two C shaped beams with bolts pointing out the middle of each. The axle is held with leaf springs
Maybe you should make the car narrow/small so that it can fit on sidewalks, so that it is good for walkable cities
Also, it’s so cool that you just made a wooden model like that 👍
i have a 1969 f250 and It has a remarkably similar front suspension. They called it twin I beam IFS and it was totally space age back in 69. It was so good in fact, ford used it on various trucks up until 2002 or something like that.
Cool I'm looking forward to seeing you make a full scale version.
You will run into problems controlling the steering and alignment with your design: As the wheels bounce up and down, you're changing the distance between the steer pins. This means the wheel may be aligned at the middle of the range of up-down motion, but at the extremes they will point alternately out and in. You may get away with it, or you may have to go with a pivoting steering linkage where the steering link can swing up and down with the suspension arms and the point your moving to steer left or right is fixed near the pivot axle.
In any case, good luck, this seems like a fun project!
Keep in mind that your upper and lower suspension arms have to have the same spacing at each end in order to function properly. And you might want to consider shortening the suspension arms to create spacing between the suspension arms for legs and peddles to go.
I’m excited to see how this works out. The A arms will pose a interesting challenge
That long armed split axel design is pretty common in ATV suspensions. Not as common as a rigid rear axel (guarantees no wheel slip in loose sand/mud), but i bet it'll work just fine for something running on only peddle power over not-super-rough terrain
Super excited for this build! Think it might become a useful tractor for the railway 😆
Two jears ago, when I was thinking of building a cargo bike myself I had the idea of using two suspended bikes and conect the pedal axises rigidly together and use the freerun of the back wheels as some kind of differential geering. Maybee the front parts of the bikes could get some use to.
I may be late to the party, but you’re design at 7:26 reminded me of an old school torsion suspension from the 1960’s.
They actually had the wheel problem on cannon carriages hundreds of years ago. When travelling across the gradient of slops the sideways weight of the cannon could break the wheel. The solution was to make the wheel cone shaped as opposed to disk shaped.
Still can't believe i am watching this lovely elderly couple from Ireland having their own personal Industrial Revolution... Trains, railroads, coal... Now cars. What's next? A hot-air balloon made from willow and old bedsheets?
Wonderful project, can't wait to see what you come up with.
Twin i beam suspension may be what you want to try. Basically what you made (one pivot point per wheel) but a beam that go from the wheel to the opposite side. (left wheel attach to a beam that pivot on the right side of the car and vise versa.) this make the suspension arcs wider with out having make a wide car.
Thanks - yes, that makes sense. Do you think it will be necessary on our design?
Well it is a bit over my head, but it looks fascinating and I enjoy hearing you describe it all.
Solid axles would make your life much simpler.
Transverse leaf spring like some early cars could be made from wood (its a bow without a string), to keep the all wood theme.
The Berg pedal car uses the single pivot tractor style front axle and works quite well for the speeds you are likely to achieve.
Very Interesting- I'm excited to see where this goes.
Bungie cord seems to be a... unique choice for suspension, though. Perhaps a shock absorber of the type used on mountain bikes would be a better option?
Tim slices out lots of wood chips with his laser cutter.
You started so well.
Model T Ford.
Beam axle.
Simple.
You could be accused of re-inventing the wheel. 🙈😎🤣
Top class entertainment! We never know what to expect next
The Citroen 2CV had suspension that was simple and worthy of copying.
A common form of front axle was the model T as you showed. It worked for that car, and many millions of other cars, including my Austin Seven.
Exactly. For this car that setup is perfect
A plywood car? That's thinking like Colin Chapman, just add lightness. 👍🇦🇺
Hi Tim, I think the mid-60s Marcos GT proves that plywood can be successfully used for cars. It had a top speed of 187 km/h, and according to Wikipedia: "The plywood chassis was glued together from 386 separate pieces and was not only light and strong, but also required a minimum up front investment to construct." I believe your speed limit in Ireland is less than 187 km/h, so you'll always be travelling at speeds already proven to be 'plywood safe'. Of course, there's also the DH98 Mosquito (plywood aeroplane), which topped out at 480 km/h...
You're right about our speed limits! (25kmh for an ebike)
Dear Inventor Tim.
👍👌👏 Congrats! All this already looks quite promising and it sure was a lot of effort already. Additionally a lot of thinking was done and is needed. Obviously a bit more than I thought. Congrats again for owning all those machines and the brain to run them. 2) I guess that you will you use bicycle tires (20 or 21"). Maybe even fat bike tires!? 3) I hope that a company like "total boat" will sponsor you or at least donate material (epoxy resin, paint etc.p.p.).
Of course I'm eagerly looking forward to watch the next video part.
Thanks a lot for making teaching explaining recording editing uploading and sharing.
Best regards luck and especially health to all involved people.
I really enjoy watching your R&D process, if I remember a number of years ago there was a program on TV where someone built what was basically a wooden car and drove it to the North Pole. The idea behind the project was to make a car that was easy to fix in what they called 3rd World countries. It was I think in the 70's / 80's, basically a boxed steel frame with the body panels made up of plywood, the windows were perspex. Not sure if its still available anywhere to watch, might give you some ideas. Good luck. 👍🤗
Great video Tim as always. That steering bar won't work tho I'm afraid. As each wheel moves up and down the distance between the rear of the wheels changes. So as the vehicle bounces up and down the wheels are forced out of parallel. I'm sure you either already thought of it or would do soon enough 😀
Yes, the steering input would have to be split one for each arm.
We have a plan!
Even so they would still have to allow for the distance between centre and the wheel changing.
Take a look at a tadpole trike as to how they solved the front wheels and steering problem. Ice trike and cat trike make very well designed ones.
Slight problem is you might wheels parallelism change depending on the height of each wheel. Always amazed watching your videos !
Tim, I really love your projects. Most entertaining and informative. As I watched this it came to mind how Ford did something like this at the end of the strait axle period of pickup truck design. Instead of going to a very heavy independent front end, they just split the strait axle in two, pivoted itike yours and bang, independent suspension. It worked for man years. They fixed the pivot problem buy not cutting the axle dead in half, but bur making each half axle about 30% longer then moving it's pivot point to it's opposite frame. There was so little lateral pivoting(caster?)that it required no other control arm., Much lighter and simpler. On another note, I lost my 26 year old son to a man with a gun an was, I don't know how to describe it, troubled for 8 years. While I know I will never be"past it",I found some peace watching your telling of your loss. I'm sure it will never be behind you, but I wanted you to know how much you helped me. His name was David Wesley Johnson, perhaps our sons know each other now. My name is the same, Evan if this email says my name is mark, it's really Dave(long story).looking forward to your next video. goodby my friend, D
Thanks very much Dave. There are plenty of sad parents like us around, aren't there? Helping each other along. Brothers and sisters all.
Trailing arm and Leading arm suspension for size, weight and simplicity would be my vote. Shock absorbers are probably not necessary but can also be added at a later point if needed. 👍🏼
You can maybe also use the model of a dutch cargobike. A bakfiets the steer with de hole bak and you need only one hinge. They where made fom the '30 till the '70. Nouw they also make new ones with electric motors on them. Brands like lely and gazelle made them in the earlydays, now there are brands like baboo and vogue that make them.
You might want to have a look at the construction of the GN Cyclecars. That might make things a lot easier and lighter and they have proven themself.
With the steering arm moving, you will have to connect the steering wheel via a rod that has a knuckle close to the steering arm to allow for movement.
Zetor! From my country. That was amazing traktor and most wanted toy for all boys! In reality, Zetor has suspension on front wheels. And it is on one hinge, still. There is just simple vertical suspension "tube". Thank You for video. Nice project.
Yes! It's a great little model too - reverse and three forward gears..
Tim look up Rose bearing - not only do they provide lightweight smooth bearings that can be bolted through pre-drilled holes in ply but also offer adjustment to get angles spot on - I notice you are using a vertical TRAIL which is essential to get comfortable self-centering steering - alternatively, you could tilt the whole module to give a RAKE of 25 - 30 degree to get the contact of the tyre Trail some 3-5" behind the turning axis and the suspension would more in line with the "bounce" force vector so it could be made lighter but stronger - We have built several Eco Marathon cars using this principle.
thanks, Trev. Very interesing. (And what amazing cars!!)
@@wayoutwest-workshopstuff6299 We once built one using a de-commissioned Sea Eagle anti-ship missile as a mould !
I’m excited to see how you do this!
Ford did the single hinge system but the lever arms mounted to the opposite side of the vehicle. look up "Ford Traction Beam". Desert racing trucks still use the design today.
Also be aware of toe gain. The single pivot moves the wheels closer and farther apart as they go up and down and if your steering doesn't also change length the front wheels will point further apart when the suspension moves. I believe Ford handled it by building a Y shaped steering linkage that could follow the suspension in most circumstances.
Like your thought process, Only snag I can see is taking up the temporary expansion and shrinkage of the steering arm, unless you put the main shaft on the body and two pivot arms out to the wheels?
Have you seen articles on ford's "Twin I Beam" front suspension. But I think for your purpose you have the best setup.
Good progress.
To achieve caster, the wheel axle does not need to be moved back from king pin. King pin should be angled. Lower mount should sit forward compared to top mount.
Yes, but a vertical kingpin would work though, surely? (Much simpler)
@@wayoutwest-workshopstuff6299 A vertical kingpin is truly simpler, but that will make the vehicle steer towards the bump and so on.
A proper kingpin has a complex angle, not just front to back, but also sideways.
The kingpin should point to a spot about 2-3cm in front of the wheel contact patch and in-line with the wheel (when its straight).
This will make the wheel tilt properly, roll over obstacles without steering interference as well as track correctly with no steering input.
So yes, your vertical kingpin WILL work, but it will probably not be working good enough for a commercially viable product.
I'm really looking forward to this. What type of plywood are you using? Marine plywood might be more durable but probably more expensive. Also, have you considered a sliding pillar suspension as used in old Morgan cars?
What glorious madness! I just love watching these projects come together.
You could try trailing arms like the VW Beetle or the sliding pillar of the Morgan. I would expect the trailing arms to put less stress into the joints when you hit a bump. 2cv use leading and trailing arms but I think leading arms at the front would naturally want to dig in and stop the car. You might be able to use torsion bar suspension or the 2cvs unique suspension. The front wheel acts against the rear wheel. Not the body.
2CV suspension: czcams.com/video/j7pFxgDmZXQ/video.html
thanks Marc, thanks Michael - so much to learn!
shock absorbers/dampeners are really good for both comfort and driveability, but not necessary. I have driven machines without shock absorbers, mostly old mopeds. The problem with not using shock absorbers is that you can either have comfortable softer springs that make the entire machine jump down the road, or springs that are very hard and uncomfortable. Harder springs makes it a lot easier to drive however, since it's much more predictable.
Going from riding my moped without shocks to my brother's which has shocks is very noticeable. His moped is a lot more comfortable because the shocks allow it to have very soft springs.
thanks, Edvin - yes, that makes sense
Tim, you are AMAZING!!!!
The horn works already!
That steering arrangement is very similar to modern Formula1 cars.
How exciting this is gonna be a cool project to follow! Not that ymthey all aren't.
I wish there was a way to look inside your brain. The wiring surely is most unique!!
Can’t understand it, do love it, can’t wait for the next step
In a pedal-car, rolling resistance must be kept very low. That is harder to do with independent suspension.
Tim why don't you start by looking for a 2nd hand 2 seater quadrcycle like they have at the seaside, and add a motor to that. You can then try and replace some of the heavy tubes with ply fabrication as you move forward. Latest bicycles have moved to balloon tyres now which give a decent amount of suspension and roll well. This could save you a lot of work and added weight with springs etc.
I've never seen one here in Ireland, but I'll look them up - thanks
Some interesting ideas already bro so look forward to see how far this goes, at least ya wooden get a flat tyre. Safe travels
6:40 - My teeth are on edge... Yikes! Great project btw. Loving where this is going...
Your idea to put the pivot points close to the center of the chassis reminds me a lot of the twin i-beam suspension from old Ford pickup trucks. Maybe you could google that and get some ideas, I have a 1990 f150 with this suspension setup and it rides very smooth
This kind of suspension is called a Tatra suspension (i think). Tatra still makes trucks with suspension like this because it's much simpler than modern designs. And they work very well for slow speed offroad use.
Tim, you are always entertaining and an incredible inspiration to us all. Thank you so much for sharing your experiments and projects with us. 👍👍👍
Wasn't a waste of time at all. You just learned different ways how *not* to do it. :D
Interesting results!
Perhaps cab suspension instead of wheel suspension could be an easier option for V1? Also - minimising stress risers like those 90° inner angles on that long piece of play going across the assembly might be a good idea (plus adding curves over stark angles makes it look more swish doesn’t it?) 😊
you never said you wanted a suspension on it ! lol. i think A-frames would be the best choice , laminate vertical plywood pieces to make the frames .
excellent...i want a wooden pedal electric car
Cool end
Seeing how complicated things are getting, maybe it's worth looking at Citroën's suspension solution for the 2CV...
I would stick with a solid axle and use springy wood for the suspension like a leaf spring, such wood as in a slatted frame of a bed
Interesting design! I look forward to seeing how it all turns out. My only issue with it is that the weight of the chassis and bumps will be carried through two cantilevered shafts (one front, one rear) It looks like each will need to be quite beefy. Not necessarily a problem, but you didn't mention it and figured I might. Good luck! I enjoy watching you boil problems down to their barest elements and solving them!
heavy planks... there were production cars at least till the 50's that were using hardwood ladder rail frames, for a slow vehicle it's perfectly fine, yet somehow they did it to sports cars, which aren't slow, long planks of glued up ply would work fine. for dampers there's a very old technique, two metal disks with a rubber washer between em, you can adjust tension but you need some way to lock the tension nut if you use it for the suspension pivot.
This is another exciting build! Looking forward to seeing it come together.
Thanks Tim
Don't underestimate the "steering effect", sorry I don't know the proper term: The steering linkage to the wheels being one rigid bar, but the wheels moving slightly in and out from the suspension movement relative to it. With wheels having independent suspension, the right wheel going over a bump would also steer it to the right. With the long arms this may not seem like a lot, but depending on the travel it might still be enough to be problematic in the end.
I have a plan!
Tim, your ingenuity never ceases to astound me. Love your videos.😊
Hinge plate are very interesting the senter pin could have spring over torsion suspension so many options grate models. Grate going . Wonder could you have grese able hard wood pins and sleeves
You should upload your printing files so people can make their own models if they have access to a Lazer printer
I don't know anything about suspensions but in terms of looks I vote for something akin to a Ford Model A pick-up body or maybe very early Dodge.
Control arms don't need to pivot from centre. They can be even longer and cross each other well past centre line. Like scissors. I think 60s ford pickup truck has suspension like this. Search "Ford i beam suspension"
thanks - yes, I just hearing about that - so much to learn!
Reminds me of tatra suspension
Oh Zetor brand was making tracktors in Czechoslovakia!
I enjoy your videos and they are thought provoking. I think the undercarriage should be made from steel and the body from plywood.
I would duplicate the model T suspension. It’s very effective and light weight for the speed and power you will have.
You need some sort of upper and lower arm assemblies so you can set your roll centres and keep your wheels flat on the ground throughout the suspension travel. There are suspension programs available where you can input all your chassis and steering data and it will tell you if you are being daft.
Sorry, not sure what you mean? Surely it's fine if the wheels roll a bit? That's how bicycles go round corners?
Have you had a look at the Nissan Deltawing racing car? It used suspension components from bicycles so perhaps you could use a similar design.
Rather than the two tension springs (rubber bands) you could use one compression spring on top between the two axle assemblies
Tim, look at a Citroen 2cv chassis and suspension system, does everything you need much simpler!
It's a marvelous thing, Michael, but it's not simpler!