We Found a LOST Roman Town
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- čas přidán 26. 11. 2022
- Welcome to another Roman mystery this week, as always, I do concern myself that I don't get the initially idea across well on video hence the mini intro! I hope it all makes sense.
Useful links for further research:
www.romanroads.org/
www.roman-britain.co.uk/place...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabula_...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonin...
www.roman-britain.org/
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My history teacher at school might have been the worst history teacher available, But when I did my Engineering apprenticeship a very long time ago the guy sitting next to me ways considered THE leading expert on Roman roads in Britain, and ever since then history has been fascinating to me "How we got to where we are"
George Santayana, a Spanish born British philospher said "Those who ignore the past are doomed to repeat it". Just as we seem to continuously do.
Whenever I go to Herefordshire to visit my son from Canada , I always walk around and look for lost towns, as I know there are many from the Medieval days.
Fascinating stuff Paul. Always beats me how in a country as small as ours with as many records kept that you can loose a town in the first place .
Crazy isn't it. I'm still unsure myself after all this.
Like me at home, “I didn’t lose it per se, just haven’t seen it in a while. It’ll turn up sooner or later”
If you think about even quite big (in Roman British terms) places like Wroxeter or Magnis (near Hereford), they're just fields with a few lumps and bumps before excavation. So would Silchester be without its walls. Bearing in mind the break in records of a couple of centuries and changing settlement patterns, there is no real reason for people to remember (or particularly care) where these abandoned former towns were - until antiquarians became interested in such things from the 17th century onwards.
It's lose not loose! Anyway, historically we haven't been that good at accurate record keeping. Births were recorded by the church for centuries however important details like the exact date of birth were not recorded. Which is why we can't be sure that Shakespeare died on his birthday, April 23rd 1616.
And only recently does the occupation of both parents appear on the birth certificate.
To lose one town may be regarded as a misfortune; to lose more looks like carelessness.
There's a big roman town that's been found in Slimbridge Gloucester, they are popping up all over the place thanks to us metal detectorist
I visited the Vindolanda Roman fort some weeks ago - fascinating. I particularly liked seeing the old Roman toilet - the Vindaloo.
LOL! Excellent! 😂 No excrement Dr Watson? 🤔🙃
I went to Eggar's Grammar School on the eastern edge of Alton, nearer to Holybourne. The Alton bypass construction started about 1973 and we took part in some archaelogical excavations in that area. I can't remember the details but the details are probably in the Curtis Museum in Alton, or in Winchester. Might be worth a look.
Cheers David. I feel a part two coming on.
Is it possible that the Romans measured distances in the same way as canalmen did later on? In canal terms you can add one (canal) mile to the length of a journey for every lock encountered. That is worked out by one lock taking 15 minutes approximately where a canal boat moves a 4 miles an hour (1 mile every 15 minutes). Could the Romans have taken into account any delays caused by river crossings or the like when judging their distances? Just a thought.
@@miscreant67 So its a time to march a legion between two points ?
@highpath4776 it could be a mix of distance and time which could give an idea not only how far the journey is, but also the expected time to travel it. This would help in calculating how much they would need to carry in rations etc.
As I say, I have no idea if the Romans used it but this was a system used by canalmen to calculate how long it should take to transport goods from one place to another. I'm sure it would be used in calculating their pay.
It might be my imagination but the field surrounded by trees directly to the NE of the Wheatsheaf pub looks the right shape for a small Roman town
Oooh I shall take another look
Until this year, the bus service travelling between Worcester (Roman Settlement) and Birmingham along the A38 was branded "the Salt Way Bus".
This was because it passed through Droitwich Spa (Spa, because of its medicinal Brine Baths). Droitwich was another, very important Roman settlement, and was called "Salinae" (place of salt, or Salttown).
Salt has been produced from the natural brine springs there for millenia.
This suggests that towns and settlements from a wide area, possibly up to Wroxeter, down to Aquae Sulis (Bath) would be travelling to Salinae for salt and brine.
Yet so little remains, that the Spa barely mentions the Roman town in its publicity, it's not on Town signs, either. The location of the Fort is believed to be on an outcrop, overlooking the modern (20th century & before) A38, and the present dual carriageway bypass.
I'm wondering if 19th century developers buried or excavated and dumped archaeological evidence. Wouldn't be the first time 🤔☹
Your production values have shot up another notch
Amazing aerial pictures. Fascinating facts.
Interesting items.
As always - a great entertaining video.
Thank you
Thanks Pauline.
One was found between Berkhamsted and Tring in 1976. They're all over the place. I remember field walking a ploughed field that was most of one quarter of the town - you couldn't spit without hitting Roman pottery. Mostly roof tile but also cooking and eating ware. Mid Saxon stuff was found first, then when the entrepreneur that was building a marina next to the canal went bust and the archeologists moved in they found it was Roman. Don't know if it was ever properly written up and made public.
This touches on a problem not only both serious & chronic, but little known to the general public: most archeological excavations are NOT properly documented & published. What we end up with are interim reports -- which can be useful, but don't provide all of what was found & given a proper explanation; or a book or article written for public consumption -- which often oversimplify the findings. Around the time the King Tut exhibit made the rounds of the US, many years ago, there was a radio program which stated the proper scientific report of the excavation of that pharaoh's tomb has never been published.
The reason for this is simple: money. Funds can be raised or grants awarded for the work of excavation itself, but money to publish the results is often omitted. It can be attributed to the fact no one likes to do the paperwork, which is one reason computer software is so poorly documented.
Thanks for todays trip, Paul. Missed seeing Becky today, hope she is well. A information trip as always. Hello to Becky when you see her. See you on the next! Cheers mate! 😊
Thank you. What an excellent video. It clearly shows the hard work you’ve put in. There’s still so much to discover on this little island of ours.
I went to school in Winchester for a while and often heard people talk about Farley Mount, but never went there. So, it was a real surprise to find out there was a folly up there and what it looked like - thanks!
Literally got back from cycling past it an hour ago and see this comment 😂
Really enjoy all that you do here. My partner and I would enjoy it even more if you could keep the drone footage up for a little longer, so that we can fully appreciate the area you are referring to and what you are trying to show us. We sometimes get a bit confused between the two:). Hope this feedback is a common request, and of use to you. The countryside walks and scenery make us very homesick for the UK. (Moved to Tasmania about 25 years ago; but visit UK when we can). We particularly enjoy the Cheshire/Staffordshire/West Yorkshire areas; but I guess that it is a bit far from your base to visit on a regular basis.
I’m just starting this and looking forward to it.. back at school - AGS - our history master was convinced that Vindomis was at the Roman road crossroads twixt Icknield and Portway… 17 miles each direction so likely settlement. Strangely swept away by development despite numerous finds in fields then.. now Augusta Park and Roman street names.. still. One master..
That's interesting that he thought that. Wouldn't that be Leucomagnus though?
Very enjoyable piece of work, many thanks. I would love to see if the lost Roman town is ever found.
Only recently discovered your channel, and I’m addicted. Congratulations, and many thanks for your efforts.
Thanks Brian. Welcome
Absolutely brilliant video, exactly my kind of interest - history, maps, and adventures... Love it. Keep up the good work, always more stuff to find on the trails!!!!!
Nice video, thank you for taking the time to produce these each week I find them fascinating. Did you take into account the difference between a Roman mile and a UK statute mile?
Good point -- it's not a huge difference, but could make the differences that Paul is seeing -- 1 mile (Roman), 0.9195057367 mi (US)
Ha as you started I was wondering if you had been to Farley Mount and thought I would have to look at the back catalogue.😅
Very interesting, Paul. Have we any idea as the ages of these towns? I mean, could it be that one was replaced with another?
I have lived in Hampshire all my life but have never been to Farley mount. I know the story. Thanks for another great video.
Unless I'm gravely mistaken the Romans pronounced the voiced labiodental fricative consonant V as W, so they would have pronounced it as 'Windomis'. Endlessly fascinating, as usual.✌
That's what we were taught in Latin O level classes, back in the day. And I think our teachers were actual Romans, it's so long ago, so must be right
In classical Latin the "v" sound, as in "vee" didn't exist. "V" was a capital "u", whose sound was either a vowel or a consonant.
Yes, I believe the Roman "V" was pronounced like our "W" or "U" - Dorchester was DVRNOVARIA. I think the pronunciation changed to "V" or "U" in late antiquity. Modern French is similar with "Ouest" and "Oui" having a "W" sound for the "U" in this case.
Though in school Latin we pronounced a "V" as a "V"!
@@richardmorgan9273 Same here. Ah, the days of yore! Latin did teach me to look at languages in an analytical way.
Another absolutely incredible video Paul! Thank you for the content you create.
Great video. I always find the flow of your videos really good, so don't be hard on yourself. Perhaps you set yourself impossible tasks. Nonetheless what you show us is always very enjoyable and thought provoking, you can see that by reading the comments. Another great video, well done!!
Good luck from Spain!!
Thanks David.
But what've the Romans ever done for us? 😆
A most interesting video, guys.
Excellent video. Thank you.
Really interesting. I love the landscape and the detective work.
That was great Paul. Totally enjoyed my history lesson. Look forward to you going back. Thanks for taking me along. Please stay safe and take care
Loved the idea of working it backwards. (Though seems like a lot of effort to justify ending up at a pub...?)
l LOVE YT videos where the preface is "PAY ATTENTION". To be honest Paul I may have wondered off looking the beautiful English country side. You said something about the milage not being correct and I think I found myself in the same chalk pit as that unlucky horse. Not to worry I did recover and was relieved to find that Vindomis does exist.
If you do not mind I do have a couple of serious questions:
1. How do you or the RRRA account for the relative inaccuracy of the maps milage for Vindomis when the rest of the list was relatively within range?
2. At 6:05 you show the "Private" sign and then in the next few frames you are passing through a gate. Is there a connection here or am I reading too much into the editing?
Love your discussions and the beautiful country side photography.
Cheers. No worries at all let me see if I can answer.....
1. Both the RRRA and I agree that the mileage is waaay out on 50% of the distances. Have a rewatch of that bit and you'll see I correct loads.
2. Yup I should have ommited that. No connection just a bit of cutaway to draw that part in.
@@pwhitewick I would run the spreadsheet with two colums, given mileages and corrected mileages , it is always handy to keep your original data in place if only to play around with , look for mean deviations to see if any pattern errors , look also for variations in contour heights travelled, and distances to other locations at each junction or town "terminus". Also have a look at where the pubs are in any existing settlement to older ones (tricky in sarem !)
Fascinating, as always! If all roads lead to Rome, surely all lost Roman roads lead to lost Roman towns. Thanks for bringing hidden history closer into view!
I'm thinking that errors in counting miles were easy to make. I once read a bit about a portion of an Indian survey by the British, written by a British gentleman who travelled along with them for a bit. Even in the eyes of his fellow Brit, the Brit in charge of the survey was not a nice boss; he was harsh, and the Indians who handled the trundle wheel were always picking it up and carrying it on their shoulder. The boss explained he was harsh because the Indians were mischievous, but you've got to wonder if they might have been different had he been nicer to start with. The Romans could easily have been just the same.
Very excited to find your channel! Loved this video- extremely interesting!
Welcome aboard!
Great can you do Dome more of these Videos? I ging all the stuff what you do very interesting. I would interest me how many Roman roads where built. Where are they situated? And the conditions they are in Today. Thanks for the Entertainment All our love from Hamburg Germany
Do more vids
Fascinating explore. Very enthusiastic as always. Most enjoyable. Thank you
Another great video.
As an aside the CZcams algorithm took me to a channel called "Remote Origins" which deals with the minutae and mundane of UK railway infrastructure. I am in no way associated with the channel, but it deserves a wider audience.
Looks fun, cheers for sharing.
Paul -- that horse burial monument seemed to be atop of quite a round "hill" in the midst of flatter terrain -- is that an ancient mound?
hi again Paul and Rebecca , great interesting video again , really well done and thank you 😊
For a minute, I thought the Wheat Sheaf's columns were going to be Roman like the White Bull's in Ribchester (Bremetanacum). Good going as usual, Paul. When are you coming to see the newly identified road on the way to Ambleside (Galava)? Ditches and aggers galore! Ad altiora!
P.S. I will be your local guide, 4x4 imcluded!
There must be an awful lot of undiscovered archaeology lying just beneath our feet throughout this country!
Great stuff!
There's a Vindomis Close in Holybourne, Alton. I know because a friend used to live there. Vindomis roughly translated means wine house and theirs certainly was!
Ooooooh, I love that.
@@pwhitewick Actually, I just checked that on Google Translate and it says vindomis means 'the winds' but 'vin [space] domis' means 'wine at home', which is what I was thinking although I seem to remember there being some wind as well... 😱
Vindobe? sounds like an editing software lol Brilliant Video Paul
😂
Excellent. Thoroughly enjoyable. Nice to know that not every question has been answered,
You should try a dowsing rod; there's nowt better for finding lost roman towns than a dowsing rod.
Very interesting. When it comes to the Romans much of the evidence seems to be very illusive. You did a top job trying to work this out logically. I can understand why this particular video was tricky to create a flow. If you missed part of it the rest would be very tricky to follow. Very well done though 🙂
Excellent. And will we ever know - probably not. Keep going with Roman content.
Like the Monument field in Bilsington up from the Roman port by Lymne. Full of tiles.
Awesome! I love your stuff.
Thank you
Great video
Well done 👏
Ah a very interesting conundrum, I would ask why those distances were so out. Is a Roman mile different from an imperial mile?
Yup just under 10% so not really enough to make the significant differences here.
Paul and Rebecca needs to get a land xray g fiz machine that marks out the ground below us like time team did
Top vlog Paul gave 10 very interesting have good week
Time to call TIME TEAM!
I visited the UK,and loved every moment of it.
Superb filming and commentaries.
Thanks very much for your time and efforts to produce your volgs.
May I have your indulgence to suggest that when you overlay a drone shot you stick arrows on it to show where you're standing on the ground?
Keep safe warm dry and virus free both.
Thank you David.
VIn domus, sounds like house of wine, i.e. a pub!
More evidence right there!!!
Excellent video.😀👍
I suggest having a look at Tithe Maps in the local museum or Records Office. The field names sometimes give clues to occupation, such as STRETTON [settlement on the road] field/meadow etc.
You occasionally see Roman Field on Tithe Maps close to Roman Road too. Obviously, quite a big clue in the name!
... Noticed Isca beside Exeter on your list and that's also the Roman name for Caerleon ...
Nice drone shots!
Have you taken into account the difference in distance between Roman miles and the modern mile, though that might not matter here?
We did consider it yes. Good point. But I think its just too short a distance to make a significant difference
@@pwhitewick It's almost 10%. But it would have also been measured along the actual route, not as the crow flies on the map, so it may cancel out? Also I wonder where the distances in the Itinerarium come from, are they from records of when the roads were originally planned and ordered to be built (in which case they would have been much rougher estimates? or even have large errors if the actual road as-built took a much different route in certain places.) Or were they measured after the fact, and if so accurately (e.g. by rod and chain) or estimated from travel time?
@fool0 all good points. In truth I don't really know. But with an almost 10% difference it's still not enough. 36 miles and 22 miles for example.
Good question! The charts that Paul shows use the abbreviation "m.p." which I'm guessing stands for Mille Passuum which is the Latin name for a Roman mile, so it looks like that column has Roman miles which are a bit shorter than our miles (see Wikipedia) - but that wouldn't account for the big discrepancies. The Romans did place milestones along their roads so the itinerary was probably correct originally, but who knows what transcription errors have crept in.
If Iter 15 followed the known Roman routes then it could have gone directly from Silchester to Winchester. In this case, surely a site somewhere near Basingstoke must be favourite ( 9 miles from Silchester and about 13 from Winchester). But, the Iter doesn’t necessarily have to have followed a straight route. It may have used the Silchester to Andover road and then turned South to get to Winchester. In this case, the distances are Silchester 18 miles and Winchester 12.
Yup, the quickest route would have used Andover. I still don't fuller understand why a detailed route from A to B would include detours though. Even a straight line from Silchester to Winchester would be out of the way of the more favoured portway route.
In your past paragraph though the route would have made 30 miles instead of 36 miles and put Vindomis at St Mary Bourne?
When sending off for maps and route London to the west country using the A30 route, the timing points would often be given as Staines, Camberley, The Wheatsheaf . Basingstoke (I forgot the order) , Winchester ish, Salisbury (we might have swung onto the A303 alternative route), Mere, Wincanton, Yeovil , Honiton, Exeter, Launceston (though we tended to stay in Okehampton) , with Tavistock/Plymouth as one alternate or Truro Penzance as the other ). Seems like the romans did much the same routings
Hi Paul.
As you say in your video Neatham is the site of a Roman town.
In the 70s I was involved in the excavations at Neatham and the experts declared it to be Vindomis,are you suggesting they are wrong?
This is not a "dig" at you (pun intended) I am genuinely interested in your views on this.
Greatly enjoy your videos,keep them coming my friend.
Just throwing in my fourpence worth Paul. Our English Statute mile = 5,280 feet (1760 yds). The Roman pace (passus) = 5 Roman feet, lets call it R.ft for convenience. 1 Roman mile (mille, meaning one thousand) = 1,000 passus, ergo 5,000 R.ft. One Roman mille is generally estimated/accepted to be 1,620 yds = 4,860 ft. Thus a Roman mille - 0.9204545 English (Imperial) mile. Lets just say 1 R mille = 0.92 English mile. Are you working assuming the Roman mille is not as long as the English mile? Sorry if you mentioned that 'cos I may have missed it, my apologies if so. Interesting vid as always, thank you. As an aside, have you been to Roman Silchester? Its very LARGE!! Odd place to get to (nowadays), there is no Roman road extant so its all winding lanes, bang in the middle of farmland, easy to get lost on the way there. Massive town walls, usual Roman construction.
It's a very good point which I stupidly forgot to mention. My only thought is, given the significance of the anomalies the 8% isn't enough to make a difference
@@pwhitewick I guess the real answer is to Geo-fizz some 993 sq miles of countryside to find the "missing" Roman town - you could do that one afternoon before tea eh!!!😅
Paul, the newest member of Time Team,…excellent!
another excellent video paul my thanks ...... ......neatham ( A31 ) !!!!!
Very interesting stuff :)
As ever, interesting stuff. As were the Large stone blocks at around the 11.12 mark.
Rebecca clearly knows…she let you go on this wild goose chase on your own😅
The horse 'Beware Chalk Pit' won the Hunters Plate on Worthy Down in 1734
#UselessFactAlert A racehorse born in 2004 was named Beware Chalk Pit and he won two races at Plumpton when trained by Jonathan Geake at East Kennet. When retired from racing he went on to become Supreme Champion showing title at the four-day Retraining of Racehorses National Championship Show at Aintree in 2016.
Darlek walks in to a bar and the barman asks "You're not one of my regulars, where are you from?" The Darlek replies. "Devon." The barman nod and smiles in recognition "Oh, where abouts?" "Exeter mate, Exeter mate! EXETER MATE!"
Really interesting piece of detctive work. I wonder if any archaeological digs or aerial surveys, have provided additional evidence.
Thanks Malcolm. I think there was a significant dig over at Neatham but zero evidence to suggest it was Vindomis (how would they know). I think a mile post or two could definitely help here.
@@pwhitewick Very good Q. I am certainly no archaeological expert, but I suppose the coinage and remains uncovered at Neatham, strongly indicate a Roman settlement. But is it Vindomis? As you point out, the mileages in the Roman itinery, locating Vindomis, don't match the location of Neatham. So, without definative archaeological evidence, are we left with Neatham
being only the probable site of Vindomis? Also, how many other examples are there of this type of conflicting evidence. Sounds like this could possibly be the basis of a very interesting set of further video explorations.
Sorry it was on the Ordnance Survey 21/2 inch maps in the 1980s. It seems to have dropped off now. Not alone either several ancient features have gone from the OS maps.
Love what you do on this channel having recently got interested in local roman history. Do you have any thoughts on the best free lidar map resource online? Had a look at the defra site, left me baffled.
Couldn't agree more. The defra one is soooooo confusion. The issue is with things like Houseprice.io and NLS, they are around a year behind defras covered.
greta vid!!
The songs of Essex, Lud Gate and all that!
The Romans coming over and concurring us might not be as clear cut as people think.
Completely agree.
Ancient maps in Museum may help or even libraries...
Really interesting, Paul. I think it must be fairly unusual that there appears to be no trace of this settlement - why was it abandoned? Why was no other village / town built on this site? (If it had been, remains would have been found…)
That's puzzled me too.... a lot. In fact I think that gives much greater chance of it being at Neatham. But then.... the route mileage and direction makes no sense.
@@pwhitewick quite simply the romans could build a stopping place on a march length and supply it from elsewhere. The incoming saxons would look to towns they could supply in half a day walk or horse cart ride max, so the (presumably larger) places with better resources like Winchester would be the settlement , and the others down graded to village
Paul - it is Badbury not Bradbury!
Thankyou for mentioning my name so many times on your maps! 😂
Always a pleasure.
i love maps too. Have you ever tried a Bowen Road Map in your research? These are centuries old "strip maps" that are similar to the Roman map you showed in your video. There's a 1720 example of a single page on eBay for 35 pounds.
Oooh a bit like these.
question to jack, have you noticed the 4 numerals after usernames and an at before name - any idea what YT is up to ?
@@highpath4776 No clue. Perhaps it has something to do with the new "names" feature YT introduced last month for creators
Most interesting.
That's Phil Harding country, from Time Team, if he hasn't found it..................
I bet you would have found it if Rebecca had been there.
Especially if she'd made her usual amusing facial expressions while Paul was monologuing. 😆
I understand your logic and agree with your guesses but is there any sign of a Roman settlement in the actual area of the Wheatsheaf Inn?
Not to mu Knowledge.... however. Check out a video we did more recent on two parallel roman Roads. There is one more recently found here which actually helps the location
Ooh, just had a random thought: is Vindomis actually the other side of Silchester ie they got the ordering of the list wrong?
Roman town🙄. What about the Flower Pot Inn just south of the Wheat Sheaf (on NLS maps)? Where’s that gone, and what’s the relationship with Flower Pots brewery just down the road in Cheriton? Lots of old inns here, perhaps you change you emphasise to something more useful? 😂
the more we learn the less we know
my understanding of latin is that all letters in words are pronounced.
and none of us noticed the green screen at the beginning lol xxx
Basingstoke area?
Interesting...🙂🚂🚂🚂
has another villa been found in the east midlands recently ?
Did you take into account the difference in length between a Roman Mile and a UK mile? I was not sure I heard anything on that?
Yup just under 10%? If so not enough to make up the huge inconsistencies. I should have mentioned this in the film.
@@pwhitewick It's the Internet someone's gunna ask XD
Usually Anto-NINE-us.
Was it just wandering around the countryside? Were you able to give it directions ?