What Is The Longest Possible Game Of Chess?
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- čas přidán 31. 03. 2020
- Here we uncover the answer to what the longest possible game of chess is in my final episode of my first series: "Understanding Chess"
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If you would like to read about what is the longest possible chess game, I made a blog post too!
www.chess.com/blog/post?id=40...
Here is the PGN for the game!
docs.google.com/document/d/1e...
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Tempi is plural, tempo is singular.
You're right, I mixed them up! Thanks for informing me, sorry about that :)
Also half a move (that is only one player moves a piece or pawn) is called a ply. Tempo is a term used to evaluate the relative number of plies for one player over the other. For example if white makes a move which forces black to return to his/her previous position, then white would have gained a tempo since white has developed his position further while black hasnt
No, the singular of tempi is tempeh
it is italiano 🇮🇹🖤
tempus
Imagine two guys who agree to perform this game in a competetive environment where every game stays forever in the database,
Id feel bad for the arbiter who has to submit these games in! 😂
@@BradenLaughlin He has to observe the game for around 4 days (assuming a 30s/move increment)
@@peterlustig4300 wow haha, it took me about 7 days to create the PGN 😅
@@peterlustig4300 Just move instantly
If they got to move 5,000 or something and one of the players broke the agreement and played for a checkmate, that would be the biggest betrayal since Judas and Jesus.
I can imagine on move 213 Ben Finegold said, “Still Theory!”
And the pawn is still on f7.
Ben finegold literally never even said that... like wth?
Ect ect delicious
You! With the correct answer!
"Yeah. The truth hurts!"
Interestingly, while this theoretical "longest game" assumes an instant draw using the threefold repetition and fifty move rules, Nikolic-Arsovic did not. There were several instances in that game where either rule could have been used to declare a draw, but the game continued anyway.
also, these rules need the player to declare it. 75 moves and the arbiter can do it (at least today), (or 5 times the same position)
Because if you don't make this assumption than the theoretical longest game is infinitely long and its pointless to calculate any moves.
@@denisl2760 Not true. You could use the 75 move rule and fivefold repetition instead, which are automatic draws and don't require the players to declare a draw.
Failing to claim is usually because of time trouble.
Nikolić-Arsović was played in 1989 (as this video said). At that time, the 50-move rule had exceptions for certain material balances, when the limit was raised to 100 moves. One was R & B v R. That game reached such a balance.
At first I thought the game in the corner was from the two players.
That wouldve been crazy to see in a tournament 😂
The number of hours it'd take...
You thought the two players jumped their knights around for 30 moves?
@@Pattonator14dont forget about blundering all pieces and blundering mate in 1
Really interesting. The longest game is so much shorter than I would have guessed. If you had said, "Ten to the power of 62," I wouldn't have been surprised.
That's what I thought. After watching videos about how many different chess positions there are, I really did not expect the longest possible chess game to be that "short". I didn't think of something like to the power of 62 but I thought it would go in the millions at least.
It's all thanks to the 50 move rule. If you only consider 3-fold repetition the game will most likely be some absurd number like that, because on average there are way more than 50 ways to arrange a given number of pieces around a certain pawn structure. You'd need to exhaust every single permutation.
To be fair to you, it’s implementing an optional end situation as a restriction. You don’t *have* to call a draw (the game mentioned at the beginning could have, but didn’t), so it’s *possible* to go much longer.
@@pairot01 If the 50 move rule was not a rule the longest game would be eternal/infinity.
@@deathmeter7243 no you would inevitably end up with draw by repetition
And it was in this position, on move 5,898, that both players agreed to a draw, as there was nothing more to be done here.
agadmator.
@@RishaadKhan yes
Chess played perfectly will always result in a draw
@@vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv no black will always win because of zugzwang
I read it in his voice
I would like a full game analysis, move, by move.
Something tells me it's going to have a fair number of blunders and missed wins.
"Now feel free to pause the video and find a good move for black while I give you a couple of seconds, if you were able to do it congratulations, you are an excellent game prolonger and for those of you who just want to enjoy the show the move is..."
@@elpachanga bravo
Stockfish: 4000 blunders
@@RoonistProphet thank you fbi
I can just imagine stockfish having a complete conniption trying to analyze this game.
The evaluation graph would just be like📈📉📈📉📈📈📉📉📈📈📉📈📉
99.9% blunders
We generally use the word "ply" to refer to a half move. "Tempo" is technically correct, but usage differs a little bit.
This the kind of game I play when I think "well I've got enough time to do a quick game of chess"
While it used to be the case that one didn't have to claim, now if it reaches 75, the game is an automatic draw even if no one claims. So that is probably the number that should have been used. One can just change each 50 to a 75 in the equation to get the right answer (8850 minus the same four lost tempi = 8848).
This rule has a lot of history. There were various points at which the number of moves was something other than fifty and various other points where the number of moves depended on what pieces were left on the board (so that if a position had a known forced win that took more than 50 moves, the player was given a chance to win). The current rule is 50 moves allows the players to claim a draw. 75 moves forces the draw.
Guess we’ll have to update it
Realistically no. For example, playing online, 50 moves is forced as a draw even if nobody claims it.
@@azophi use the formula, it's pretty simple
A known 50+ move forced mate with no pawn moves or captures? Even when applied to computers that seems absurd
@@isjosh8064 Hikaru would probably see it lol.
"A game of chess played perfectly for 5898 moves always ends in a draw"
Imagine playing so long ..to end up being a draw D:
Techically you can have a game of 5897 moves ending in checkmate
This shows how much free time we have in quarantine
Imagine how many blunders stockfish finds in the analysis
I just looked for the game with the most number of moves and happen to stumbled on this video. Really nice graphics + content! Keep on creating ☺️
Hey Euni! I'm really happy to hear you enjoyed. Thanks for watching :)
I see 2 cats talking
@@ahmadihamid tbh the chances of two cats talking over the internet is pretty high
Just so everyone knows, using FIDE's standard time control for classical tournament chess games (Start with 90 minutes, gain 30 minutes on move 40 and gain 30 seconds for each move made) this game would take 102.3 hours.
Great video Braden! :) I'd love to play the entire 'longest game' out on an actual board :D you got a free weekend?
Lets do it mate
How did it go? Have you completed it within 10 months?
@@mad_160realrealreal sorry man we're still going. The pain is unbearable, I can't feel my fingers anymore
@@BradenLaughlin 2 years have passed have you finished the game yet
@@BradenLaughlin 5898 moves can be done in 10 months easy at 1 move per hour
There is also rule where if one person can prove they can do a checkmate, 50 turn rule can be denied... It is relevant for 2 knighs vs a pawn where making a checkmate can take over 100 moves but is possible...
Where'd you hear that? I thought they abolished that rule.
Imagine two people deciding to troll a tournament by playing out this game if/when they face eachother
The clocks will just run out
@@rockyhermitYT Pretty sure most tournaments use increments
I was not expecting to see a random PippenFTS comment with 8 likes on this video lol
@@rockyhermitYTThey go hyper speed and make a move every amount of time you gain for making a move so the times never change
You can generalize this. Suppose the we modify the Draw by 50 Moves rule to a Draw by X Moves rule, where X is an sufficiently large (but not too large) positive integer. We can compute the longest theoretical game as (30 + (16•6) - 8)•X - 2 = 118•X - 2. If X = 50, then we obtain the number in the video.
However, here is an interesting idea. Even if you eleminate the Draw by 50 Moves rule altogether, the longest theoretical chess game is actually still finitely long, not infinitely long like everyone in the comments says. Why is it finitely long? Because of the Draw by Threefold Repetition rule. This rule by itself guarantees that the number of legal moves in a chess game must necessarily be finite. Why? Because, there are only finitely many pieces, and only finitely many squares on the chess board. Therefore, after some number of moves, a position *will* be repeated. That number will be much, much larger than 50 (in fact, for some positions, that number could be much, much larger than the trillions), but it is finite. After some finite number of moves, at least one legal position will be repeated, provided no pawn moves or captures occur. Thus, after a finite number of moves, at least one position will be repeated three times. This will immediately end the game. This remains true if you change the number of repetitions from 3 to any finite number.
In fact, the Draw by 50 Move rule is more or less unnecessary, as far as theory is concerned. It only exists for practical matters. The game remains finite without the rule. However, if you get rid of both the Draw by X Moves rule and the Draw by N-fold Repetition rule, then you do actually enable infinitely long chess games.
Your generalisation is asymptotically correct but breaks down in the edge case of X being a sufficiently small number. For example for X=1 you simply cannot fulfill that every move is a capture. Even for slightly larger numbers you probably run into interesting problems and have to sacrifice even more pawn moves.
Now what's interesting is, what's the smallest X for which your generalisation holds 🤔
But I'll leave that as an exercise to the reader.
The repetition of 3 doesn’t really work on the case of chess players of the past. No one would remember all the moves played in such a long game. And no one would remember if the game has been repeating moves.
@@1mol831 Move 2,147,962,055: “Hey guys, I think we got this same position about 30 million moves ago.” (checks notes) “Nope, bishop was on A5 in that one, not B4.”
The threefold rule only applies when the position is repeated three times in a row I believe
While the threefold-repetition rule doesn't require the position to occur back-to-back-to-back to be a draw, it is infeasible for humans to keep track of board states well enough to recognize this (especially if a game is going to be so long that it will cover almost every possible board state there is). So, games by humans can absolutely go on forever, with no one ever able to identify when a position gets repeated.
Sir. How can you have so few subscribers with well made videos like that?
That's very kind, thank you so much!
I am really happy to hear you think my videos are of high quality! :)
subribers
subribers
@@Dragon-ky1io said it first, bud
Lol he edited it after 2 years
Imagine playing for 20hrs and just to end up in a draw
Giri is punching the air right now wishing it was him
This is a very creative and informative video that delves into the mechanics of chess and reshapes the objective of the game to be something completely unique. Well done!
With so many well known draws like the Berlin, I can't wait to see professional chess players memorize 5898 moves of theory to reach the same result.
Holy you are underated, you deserve way more subs
A nice thought would be if this game were to happen in a tournament, in the longest possible time control (6h), each player would have to make a move in under 3.67 seconds the entire game to finish this game
According to FIDE rules, a draw may be claimed after the same position is repeated three times and is mandatory after fivefold repetition. Was this factored into your calculations?
Yes, when I created the game shown in the corner I intentionally made sure it had no 3 fold repetitions (as I went for if a draw is claimable then it ends instead of mandatory draws) thanks for watching! :)
It's easier than you think to avoid threefold repetition because every time a piece is captured there is now one less piece on the board and so it isn't possible to recreate any position from earlier in the game.
You can see pieces occasionally moving one square before the kings go back to dancing around in order to avoid this
A couple of years ago, I wanted to make this kind of game myself to find the longest possible game, but got bored after 1020 moves when I realized I had done it wrong. Thanks for this :)
String_dogg sent me here
How does this guy only have 1k subs??? He makes amazing content!
The kings doing the cardio for the whole team
Due to the fact that players must claim the 50 move rule, as long as both players don’t do so, the game could be infinitely long :)
Thank you wasle !! I'm glad somebody else noticed that - CLICKBAIT, CLICKBAIT
however, the players don't have to claim the 75 move rule, which is mandatory
I'd often wondered about this, thank you.
Just love how the king is sometimes having a seizure in the top left corner
Great video mate!
Came here from Perpetual Chess Podcast. Nice work Braden, I can see why chessable took an interest!
Thanks Damian, much appreciated 😊
I remember thinking about this and it's cool that someone with the skillset made a video on it, and now I know
Amazing! I subbed!
you're using the old rules from 2009. The rules as of 2018 are different and include a 75 move rule that is automatic, not claimed by players.
This is a completely fair way to look at this, In the video I did mention to decide to end the game if a draw was claimable, as mentioned by another user if you wish to look at this question in the lens of only when a draw is forced by an arbiter (which would be at the point of move 75) then the answer would be 8,848. Also I checked out your channel, you have some really cool stuff on there!
Thanks for watching!
@@BradenLaughlin Yeah but your version wouldn't be the longest technical game, more like the longest practical game. Although, I'm not sure the latter stands since, if they are willing to go to 6000 moves, they should be willing to go to 9000.
This is an awesome video idea. Good job man!
Thanks man! Hope you're doing well, thank you for watching :)
@@BradenLaughlin I know this was going to be a hit on CZcams. How did you come up with this idea? It's genius!
Actually it's not 3 repetitions but 5 unless one player claims it. Also not 50 moves but 75 due to the same reason. And in order for such a game to exist it needs collusion from the 2 players so nobody's gonna claim anything. Would be interesting if you can rework the numbers slightly. Probably it will be just under 9k moves instead of 6k.
Magnus vs ian is the longest as of 2021. Ian had plenty of advantages for example if he moved that bishop someone mid game
these videos are super clean what editing software do you use?
that's insane :D. I did the calc for time as well, considering it's a standard classical game of 90 + 30min at move 40 + 30 sec inc. it'll add up to 368.280 seconds, or 102,3 hours accumulated between the 2 players. Now that would be hilarious to watch at a classical tournament with sponsors coming to give out prices, but having to wait for the players to finish :D
The longest game i've personally witnessed was 7 hours 20 minutes. and the sponsors got really really mad xD
Great video!
For some reason, this has always been something I’ve thought about, but I never had the time to play it out
There is a variation of the 50 move rule called the 75 move which could bring the total up to 8,848.
Point five.
I was actually really curious about this, but couldn't find a normal answer
Thank you so much for bringing this!
Really valuable video, a pitty that you stopped making videos...
Awesome Video mate keep it up👍👍
Thanks so much for the support! Stay tuned for a new video coming out soon!
In the top right, it could be longer because taking with a pawn is
a) a pawn move and
b) a capture.
Very interesting!!
So, to be totally clear, we are talking about 11796 ply? Insofar that 5898 moves = 2*5898 ply = 11796 ply. I also noted with interest the fact that this depth (in either moves or ply) is independent of the starting position of the game, so long as it is a legal Chess960 or Fischer random position. Actually it is true of any legal arrangement of 16 pieces on an 8 by 8 board while the 16 pawns occupy their traditional starting positions on the 2nd and 7th ranks. Then one must only make legal moves avoiding threefold repetition, and the maximum possible depth of the game (again, in either moves or ply) is the same, assuming games are instantly terminated by the conditions of the 50 move rule being met.
And of course, as others pointed out, this number itself can be modified, so that the depth of a game is a dependent variable of the number of moves before an invocation of game termination by the "X move rule".
That was a great video and something I’ve thought of many times, great video!
My favourite thing in this video is the black king spasming all over the board, while the white king and rook dance around.
Very impressive 👏
i subscribed, this video was great
Now make this a legitimate opening called “Braden Laughlin Opening, longest variation“
The Longest Gambit
I'm at 3:15 and maybe you misspoke but it sounds like you think that 50 moves is ok as long as the 51st move resets the counter. Actually the counter has to be reset before move 51. Now I'm at 4:00 and according to that math on the screen it seems you think that it's ok if the counter is reset at move 51. As I said before the counter has to be reset before move 51.
The real question is what the achievable number of moves is if we condition on the move accuracy being representative of a current level of play. The reason a game runs long in a real game is that at least on player is playing for a win and the other is playing for a draw or a win. If both players only play for a draw they might as well agree to it immediately. But if one player tries to avoid being mated while the other is avoiding stalemate and they play sufficiently accurately that rules out quite a lots of moves beyond the reset rules.
To be fair that’s a way less mathematically clean question to answer. The rules also become quite fuzzy. Like, what if a player honestly blunders. Maybe time pressure will affect the accuracy as well.
It’s real messy for sure. It’s the kind of question that might actually be best answered by empirically looking at real games and making some model curve fit.
The analysis of the video at least puts a hard upper limit which is always nice.
Technically, even without the fifty-move rule, threefold repetition prevents a game from being infinitely long, though in such circumstances the length can get ridiculous.
Threefold repetition dictates that if a position is repeated three times, the game ends in a draw. And there are only a finite (albeit enormously large) number of possible positions, so eventually they will have to start repeating if nothing else ends the game first.
where are your new videos😞I got remembered of your video on pawn structures and I was amazed by your video on pawn structures and it was because of how much pawn structures are possible!
I liked how short this video. A lesser creator could stretch this out over 45 minutes. You get straight to the point. Great video! 👍
Glad to be your 810th sub
Ok, guess before watching the video:
Time without a piece being taken or pawn moving before draw: 50
Pawns: 16, with 6 spaces to move = 96 moves
Pieces: 30
96 x 50 + 30 x 50= 6300 moves.
Super interesting!
Learned flagging strategy from that game in the corner.
Still theory!
Modern rules allow more than 50 moves if there is a theoretical win that takes longer, such as certain low-piece combinations and no remaining pawns.
The CZcams algorithm has shoved this down my throat so fine I will watch it
To extend the game further, drop the insufficient material rule and replace 50 move rule and three-fold repetition with 75 move rule and five-fold repetition
there's something really hilarious about the king bobbing up and down in the corner game
Well following the 50 moves rule, 3 pieces needing to remain, and 16 chess pieces per side there's a theoretical limit of 50*(32-3)+49 moves which works out to a 1,499 moves maximum, so I'd love to see how close the game ends up being to that.
Edited to fix maths, forgot to account for the fact that there are 16 pieces *per side* so original maths was 16-3, instead of 32-3
Argh, I didn't think about the fact that pawn moves refresh too.
Is this your own work? If so, kudos. Delightful kind of composition. If not, kindly provide a source/citation. Next up should be an effort involving a normal/true (i.e., adversarial) game of chess. This exercise involved collusion/coordination between opponents. Leaving gimmicks aside, let's return to the 269 move game and assess it as to underlying dynamics that led to longevity and consider what might be doable/possible while still under a regime of adversarial competition. That would serve to more properly answer (if even possible) the actual question that was posed. Even with estimations being a bit iffy, might it be reasonable to say it could easily involve an extra 25 moves? 50 moves? 250 or more?
7:50 It also needs to be said that although wBc1 in your diagram is trapped, Black *can* capture it: either White moves pawns on one file so as to let it move to where Black can capture it, or Black promotes to a knight which captures it (e.g. a1=N, N-c2-b4-a2xc1). Likewise White and bBf8. A different choice of which files to make the pawn-captures to would make this issue easier to deal with.
Just so you know, it's only a draw if one side declares it. The 50 move rule does not apply if neither side wants to take the draw.
Hey! yeah this was answered in the video at 1:15 I went off the basis that if a draw was claimable as per FIDE rules then it would be, of course others prefer that it were 75 moves which is the point as to which the arbiter can stop the game but this answer would be reached the same way via pawn structures and tempi losses, it would just be a higher number if one doesn't want to consider a claimable draw as the limit like I did in the video :)
@@BradenLaughlin imagine you fall asleep in a tournament and the next day they still playing
a couple years ago i played a match with my brother which lasted 3 hours. it ended in stalemate after 239 moves
Hikura premoving the entire game
Keep pushing buddy
You'll have plenty of subsrcibers soon
Keep working hard!
Thank you so much! :)
Longest possible game of chess
Rapid : yes
1month+/day
YES
I was hoping that for style points, it would end with the R+K v K checkmate. On, of course, the last possible move.
Why 50 moves rule is not changed after were found positions in which white can checkmate in only more than 200 moves if both colors play the optimal way?
So much nerding. 10 minutes on CZcams well spent :P
How do you keep track of the 3 times same position rule? Surely one could overlook that
Black king getting a lot of cardio in
Hey just here to remind you that you made a goated video
I think it's 6300. that is if a move is when 2 players move a piece, otherwise its 12474. To be clear I'm writing this before watching the video.
The game could be infinite if not for the 50 move rule which can be reset every time a pawn moves or a piece is eaten.
16 pawns multiplied by 6 moves per pawn + 30 pieces which can all be eaten once gives you 126 times gives you 126*50=6300 moves. (I don't do 50+6300 because the last 50 moves will not occur because only two kings will remain and that will automatically be a draw).
There are a few things that make me think this is not completely accurate, just a few moves off perhaps. I say this because if white is the one that reset the 50 move rule, and then 49 moves go by and you need to make a capture/pawn move with black, that will end up resetting the 50 move rule after only 49.5 moves instead of 50. I believe this will end up having to happen around eight times, each time a pawn needs to eat a piece to get through its opposite pawn. So that leads me to believe the right answer could be 6300-0.5*8=6296. I think even if this is true it's so subtle that Braden might not have noticed it himself.
Anyway gonna watch the video now, let's see if I was right.
I still have not watched the video, I thought about it some more and I change my answer to 6296, it makes sense.
@@yosid1702 did you watch the video yet
@@Whitename Guess we will never know
@@Whitename Yeah, I did (I'm on a different account, forgot the password to the old one)
@@phoneticalballsack How’d you get the notification?
0:39 when the knights started to dance on the board I lanughed so hard
One mistake here: you don’t need to capture something with a pawn and waste a move. You can move the pawn to the back rank and have something else capture it.
uhh how you gonna promote the pawn if the other pawn is in the way??
In 1947 Karl Fabel has shown that the correct answer is 5899 moves. See "Fairy chess Review", February 1947 and in much more detail in Karl Fabel, "Am Rande des Schachbretts"
I had read in a chess daily that longest chess game can theoretically last 5949 moves and yeah, it's true.
I thought the 50 moves rule draw is when someone waned the draw they can choose not to draw and extend the move to 75 moves and then it’s a draw same with the 3 respiring move draw can be extended to 5 moves
You’re right I think
I can only imagine how many blunders this game would have
I wonder what the longest game of chess is without the 50 move rule. It's not infinite, as there are a finite number of positions, and therefore, given enough time, the same board state will be repeated three times, leading to a draw.
Levy would have a field day with this game
At around 5:30 I found myself looking at the upper right corner with the Benny Hill theme going through my head lol
Actually capturing the rook at the end wasn't necessary, you could break the 50 moves rule and still reach the same result
This should be an actual opening
There is a match in one of our neighborhood that go on from a whole day, They forgot whose who to move
played this exact game with my buddy on accident a couple days ago