Dodge Ram Deathtrap? Let's fix it.
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- čas přidán 22. 08. 2024
- Terrifying experience in my Dodge Ram 2500. MUST FIX.
Common questions/comments answered:
-I am using the recommended oil, Lucas 75-90 Gear oil, recommended by Gear Vendors.
-I considered changing the differentials. It already has 3.73's in it, so I can't gear up much at all to change to the highest available, and I would have to change both the front and rear diffs. More work and similar cost to just going with a new OD, plus the OD simply gives me an extra gear leaving the other gear ratios alone. I still have low gearing when I need it, but also high.
-There's a possibility of 2 simultaneous problems. It's definitely possible that the transfer case wasn't fully disengaging the 4WD, which would make it seem like the wheels locked up. But the problem definitely happened at times when I hadn't used the 4WD for several weeks. Also, I think the OD clutch slipped at least once. In other words, the OD was going to need replacing soon regardless.
-A couple people mentioned that I should have removed the front driveshaft taking 4WD out of the equation to test it. That is a GREAT IDEA and I wish I had thought of it. That would definitively determine if the transfer case was involved, or if it was solely contained within the OD unit.
-The clutch pistons were both free and appeared normal. The one was moving because in the video I had taken it out already and it had air behind it. I just didn't show taking the second one out.
-Many people questioned an electrical cause. I don't think any electrical failure would cause it to lock up. If the speed sensor failed, it would either lock out the OD from engaging, or fail to lock it out and allow it to engage at too low of a speed. Neither was happening, and neither would cause wheels to lock up. If the engagement solenoid was failing, it would either fail to engage, stay engaged, or possibly partially engage. Partial, or rapid fluttering of engagement, would make the clutch slip, or seem to slip. But it would not cause a lockup in any scenario I can see. I think that symptom would also be apparent to the driver, which is was not. Except for 1 instance when it seemed to slip, which didn't cause any squealing of wheels or unsteady back end, the problem always consisted of an immediate and hard engagement with tires squealing and a massive increase in sphincter tone...
Cheers, and thank you all for your comments!
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The thing with the ramps is a sprag clutch. I suspect thats the issue. The sprag clutch is not releasing and the unit gets stuck in direct drive and overdrive at the same time. Its highly unlikely they made their own sprag clutch. A good transmission rebuilder could source one.
Hey Wes. Thanks, I was hoping you would weigh in. I was most suspicious of that sprag too, because it definitely had wear on it. I thought about putting a camera under the vehicle where I could see both drive shafts and try to get more information, but I felt like I had already tempted fate enough. If I kept locking that thing up I was going to either destroy something or wreck. It would have been nice to know if the output shaft truly locked up though, vs the drive shafts were just spinning at different speeds. If locked, probably the sprag. If not, then the transfer case. Happy Thanksgiving man.
@@FarmCraft101 Yeah, without knowing what all the parts are named, the only logical explanation would be that both modes were fully engaged at the same time like @WatchWesWork said. That way it's not a halfway engaged something or a worn down gear out of tolerances that caused this, because when both modes are fully locked in, it'd be powerfull enough to block the wheels without chafing off the gear tooths. Halfway engaged due to sloppy gears would have caused chafing and the following metal pieces in the oil, which you didn't see. It makes perfect sense what @WatchWesWork said :-)
@@FarmCraft101 I need to draw up a power flow diagram on this thing (used to be a driveline engineer) but if my intuition is correct wouldn’t the sprag only cause issues on disengaging not during engaging?
It looks like they designed this unit so that it cannot lock up even when worn out. I need to think on this one a bit further but if I was designing it that’s what I would have done.
That was the (cheap) demise of GM's 1st try at auto overdrive. GM's 700r4 behind any engine, even their lowly 6 cylinder gas engine, could tear out the sprag/ one-way roller "clutch" if the driver got stuck and tried "rocking" the vehicle to get it unstuck. The fix was an actual clutch.
John: Two things if I may. 1) don't worry about a Cummins engine. They built them right. 70 may seem like high rpm but that engine is good for it. I personally own a 1990 Dodge w/ 400,000 miles running thru 3.55:1 final drive. Mine is a Chrysler 318 gas, which was considered the "Gold Standard" of industrial gas engines, but Cummins didn't build junk, anything a Chrysler engine could do a Cummins could too. 2) Diesels create vibration as part of their operating principal. When you slowed that Diesel down w/ OD you exacerbated that vibration. Lower rpm w/ added torque created more acute vibration. Everything associated w/ the drivetrain is subject to that vibration. When you put OD on it you became the "Engineer" on the project. In the automobile industry there is a saying if you want reliability: "Keep It Stock, Keep It Clean and Drive It, If You Change Anything You Become The Engineer." Just saying sometimes we are are our own worst enemy. But if you are having fun, sobeit. tnx for the video. ben/ michigan
To add to the above… my inclination is a transfer case problem. You wouldn’t notice it if the front differential was unlocked but not the transfer case.
Again not convinced need to look at some stuff on paper (because I am an engineer, dogs gotta bark…)
Always start with the most inaccessible bolts. Bolts function by clamping force, they pull the two pieces together so the friction between the two pieces takes the perpendicular load to the bolt. As you loosen bolts the clamping load becomes more and more focused on lesser and lesser bolts. Also by starting with the hardest to get to you are always working downhill which just feels better emotionally.
I big second that. Leave the easiest for last and you won't drop things on your foot :)
The drain and fill hole on out board motors is small and you will block the hole if filling using the top hole and stop the air from escaping so it works best filling from the bottom hole.
Thank you. I've been wrenching as an amateur for many decades and I hadn't thought about the clamping force vs. access point before. Very helpful to realize this.
@@Dude-mz8su 99.9% of the time, anyway.
Would anti seize work on the iron bolts in aluminum holes?
Dude, your videos are so interesting. I sometimes hold off on watching them until the right moment where I can enjoy them to the fullest.
Yes me too! I wanted to say the same thing
same!
I definitely avoid the comments! Don't want any spoilers!!
Same here.
Same .. can’t wait for Friday .. cup of tea ..quiet time .. settle in for a hour with John and his ‘seals’ (not many this week 🦭😉) … just keep churning them out John and we’ll keep watching😊👍 PS those 5 weeks sure flew by 🤣
The sprag clutch is getting stuck. If it doesn’t disengage, it will essentially be engaging two different gear sets at the same time, which will result in a locked transmission. It is supposed to free wheel when the higher ratio is engaged, but with the bearings being worn out it is likely that it is getting jammed and not releasing when the higher ratio is engaged. It operates on pretty tight tolerances and any misalignment can cause it to lock up. It will always be fine as soon as you disengage the higher ratio because it is the part driving the output, rather than the planetary gear set.
I think this is exactly what is happening!!
If the sprag cant freewheel in OD you are in 2 gears at once!!
if so he did the proper repair id say, gonna be difficult and expensive to find a new sprag along with bearings, and likely the planetary case it rides on is worn aswell at that point just get the rebuilt unit
i do think you´re right with the sprag clutch getting stuck, but just to be a total bitch i´m gonna disagree with the idea it locking up because two gears are engaged. I say the sprag getting stuck causes the ring gear to be stuck with the planetary gear carrier, so when the clutch is pressed against the case the planetary gears can´t turn causing the force to go from the output shaft to the ring gear, then though the locked sprag to the carrier, then to the planetary gears and finaly though the sun gear to the clutch and the casing, it´s basicly a planetary break, explains why it´s so powerfull of a break aswell
Fancy way to say the same thing LOL@@andreasspachmuller7002
@@andreasspachmuller7002I totally agree with your assessment. The unit is engaging as one unit now .only thing that bothers me is it’s sporadic. Should never work if it is that worn.
I don’t know if you ever get this, but you make some of the nicest repair videos I’ve seen on the Internet so far
Whether your Dodge pick up has an automatic or a manual transmission, it does have overdrive from the factory. If it’s revving so high going down the highway that means it has a 4.11 rear axle ratio because the other axle ratio offered was a 3.73.
Yes. In the old days the highest gear in most transmissions was 1:1, so the fifth gear is overdrive. A possible cheaper fix would be to get two used axles and a driveshaft from a donor car. You'd also need to swap the trumpet for the transaxle.
some peoples idea of revving high is different than others... sure the factory ratio isnt ideal even with 3.73 its a little low... but the engine doesnt mind sitting at 2500 rpms which would put you around 100mph or more on stocks tires and a 3.73 rearend thats where my 96 with the 12valve and 47re was at i had to do about 1900 rpms to do 70mph iirc the truck will rev to 3000rpm stock but loses power gradually after it gets over 2400rpm, a set of 80$ springs will let it rev to 4000rpm and carry full power to 3500 or so
guys seem to thing these engines need to be at 1700 rpm and not a rotation higher on the highway.... they sit in excavators at full pull for 12 hour shifts all the time theyre quite capable of spinning the 2500 or so you wanna do on your one hour highway drive
My 2002 5.9, 6 speed, has 3.55…
I’m thinking he has the g56 manual. The early g56 manual transmission had a high (numerically) od ratio, which put rpms with 3.73 gears about the same as an auto with 4.10 gears. If he had 4.10 gears, which I’m not even sure were an option with the manual, it would definitely be worse. I had n ‘06, 3500 with 3.73 gears and tried to go to “7th” several times. My ‘17, 2500 manual has the better od ratio and 3.42 gears, so not bad at highway speeds.
That's what I was thinking, the trans probably has OD but the gearing is just too low. Ditch the gear vendors and just change the gears in the diffs.
glad to see someone clean an area before working on it
It drives me nuts when people don’t and then wonder why they didn’t see the leak, or whatever they were looking for, sooner. 😂
All I can say is the old one kinda worked and would only lock up at random times so I would say the wear and extra play would just hit that sweet spot that locked it up. Also, aftermarket add ons don’t last much more than 100,000 miles in my experience. It’s fixed so it was it is.
Since the connectors on the solenoid weren't the tightest (not very good quality anyway), there's the possibility that you were getting an intermittent electrical connection. The solenoid jumping in and out rapidly could certainly result in things ending up in a half-in half-out locked up state. I'd probably look for a way to improve the connection and then maybe heat shrink it to seal it from the elements.
Finally, the best part of Friday: John's new video! Thumbs up after one second!
I forgot it was Friday until I saw John’s video published!
I don't know if you have heard of a heat induction tool. It probably would make removing the stuck bolts much easier and safer. The tool has hundreds of tips for all shapes of fasteners. Really helps with bolts with loctite or rust. They cost 100 to 300 dollars and work incredibly fast and safe. I enjoy your videos.
I bet Vevor sells them, would make a nice video addition.😃
I thought the torch John used worked well. Unlike the induction tool, the torch can heat the aluminium housing too.
Hello John,
I have had several vehicles with automatic four-wheel drive hubs. Occasionally, the front hubs don't disengage until they have absolutely no pressure on them. To ensure that they have disengaged, I often have to stop and go in reverse a few feet. All indicators on the dashboard will show that the 4X4 is off, but technically, the front wheels are still connected to the drive shaft. So if the front hubs have not fully disengaged what you may feel as a rear-wheel lock up will just be the difference in the two wheel rotations. The rear wheels will be going significantly slower (faster?🤔) than the front wheels and will be skidding because that's the lighter part of the truck, and it would feel like the rear wheels are locking up.
Anyways, just something else for you to chase down.
I also should say that I really enjoy your videos, and so does my wife! It is rare to find something we both enjoy watching.😮
I believe his year dodge is a constant rotation setup where the front driveline and axle shafts spin all the time. The sell freespin hub kits with manual hub locks to increase gas mileage and not kill the front double cardan driveshaft that's notorious for explosively breaking prematurely. A clue to me is he can shift his manual t-case while rolling at speed and be in 4wd or 2wd at will.
great to see how the overdrive worked - frustrating for you but educational for us thanks for taking the time John!
Pro tip: When removing jumpers, place the jumper back but only on one pin. That way the jumper is left in place in case you need to put it back someday. Those little jumpers are a dime a dozen but you’ll need one when you don’t have one.
I was going to make the same comment. Stored for easy access next time.
Have some boards which "regularly" get reconfigured by switching jumpers. My solution was buying several hundreds of them and knowing where they are. But your solution is a little more elegant.
As a guy who has flipped thousands of jumpers in his life, there are times when that is true. However in this circumstance..? Hell no. The last thing you want is a jumper that was only on one leg falling off and potentially shorting things out. Keep the jumper in a baggie in the glovebox, or add it to the collection in the parts drawers… don’t throw it away.
But no, leaving it flagging off a single post inside that box behind the dashboard in a truck that rattles over country roads all the time is NOT a best practice. That’s a thing you do with motherboard jumpers, for example, that you’re likely to have to change again with the next upgrade/revision and isn’t going to be bouncing around at all.
Pretty sure Jon put it in the "spare J12 jumpers" box.
@@ronm3245 yep… those jumpers only work on #12… #6 jumper posts take a #6 jumper, and so on… right? Riiiiight… 😏🤣🤣🥹😅
Seems to me like your four wheel drive isn't disengaging or fully disengaging. Even pushing in the clutch your front and rear axles should still be coupled through the transfer case as all that does is disengage the engine from the drive train. Not familiar with the dodge setup but is it possible the hubs are disengaging and not the transfer case albeit disengaging slowly. Maybe try shifting the transfer case to low range and then high or nuetral if it has it and see what happens. Put it on the lift and engage four wheel drive and then go back to two and see if all four are still spinning or if turning the rear by hand with the engine off leads to the front spinning.
Yeah that bang is when it frees up is almost the same as disengaging 4wd with a locker while turning.
@@ionstorm66 that’s kinda what I thought watching the video because I have a 98 Silverado from the factory has front and rear lockers all 4 lock together and if I’m not turning and I just go straight my fronts will never unlock
Going in an out of 4WD seemed to cause the issue so something with the 4WD was my guess too. It seemed to work fine until he started messing with 4WD. But replacing it seemed to fix the issue so maybe it was a combination of the 4WD and OD going out.
I also suspect 4WD. John will need to verify it is working correctly. Second possibilty is likely the solenoid. I have not seen sprag clutches intermittently locking, but agree there are only a few suppliers. Seems cheap to replace and rule it out.@bobbygetsbanned6049
Just a quick tip. When removing those style of circuit board connectors, reinsert the connector back on only one of the two pins, so when you might need it in the future, the connector is stored right there to reuse. I think that overdrive is just worn out and starting to fail. It seems like there is a lot going on inside that case.
ROFL ... Well that saved me a lot of typing... 👍
Whenever something breaks and you don’t know what exactly it was is always frustrating.
I'm chasing death wobble on a 2017 Ram. Has me pulling my hair out.
@@McNunkyNutz had a 1996 ZJ Grand Cherokee that I bought for $250 off craigslist 13 years ago not running. Cost me a couple hours of diag and two zip ties to make it run, then my very first test drive on a 55mph roadway, experienced death wobble for the first time and almost shit my pants.
Pretty sure the Ram and teh ZJ have the same front suspension. I cured death wobble entirely, but can't say specifically what was the cause of it given my ZJ had 300,000 miles on it. Items I replaced: All of the steering links such as tie rod outer links, connecting links, basically anything with a ball joint in the stearing. Replaced the trackbar with an adjustable one, front ball joints, and the front wheel bearings. After all of that, which only ended up being a few hundred bucks from the locak Oreilly and 4wd store, the truck drove like it was brand new! For the cherry on top, upgraded teh steering damper. Don't replace that thinking you'll fix death wobble, it would only be a bandaid IF even that, to the actual issue.
Strange problem considering what I found in the teardown. Input appreciated, what do you think? Check the description for answers and explanations to common questions and comments. Happy Thanksgiving and have an awesome weekend everybody!
What wou.d happen the sparge assemble bind up..?
Wonder if something with solenoid was the issue. Maybe it was getting weak and not fulling engaging causing it to lock up?
@@DuaneMckenzie80 I wondered this too...
I have a GV in my chevy p3500 van with a manual transmission and 2 stroke detroit. I was having similar issues and it was resolved by swapping the OD unit. i get about 30k from them in my application, but am at 12000 gvwr all day long. My documentation suggests a 5000 mile OCI, but GV told me 3000 at my GVWR.
My money is on the sprague. If it jams and doesn't allow the output shaft to spin faster than the input shaft, it will bind up. It's like engaging two gears at the same time.
If you could force that OD on in 4WD in the snow making the rears go faster than the fronts it'd be an absolute donut monster!
Pretty sure there's a differential between the 2 axels, so it should still drive normally.
@@jnygaarddkit depends, my 98 Silverado locks all 4 wheels together you never get stuck but you also don’t get to turn!
@@zeropoint3518 pfft, turning is overrated! Do you want to get from A to B or just want to keep circling around A? Turning, ha. What nonsense.
(Read this with the voice of old dude with a really deep southern accent)
@@jnygaarddk Old style full time 4WD like np203 you'd be right. Newer part time 4WD transfer cases lock the power between the front & rear outputs.
@@zeropoint3518 some of those actually had 4 wheel steer in those years
A sticky solenoid would cause the clutches to partially engage, locking the gearset to both ratios. The sprag gear needs to engage the output shaft to maintain speed BEFORE the clutch engages in order to mate the outshaft to the planetaries. If the clutch tries to engage first, the output shaft will slow down and lock up on the one way bearing as it is rotating slower than the input shaft. THAT's what is causing the outshaft to lockup during engagement.
That's something I like about your videos: there will almost always be fire of some kind.
Totally with you there, John. I'd also want to see something VERY obviously wrong to reassure me that a replacement would fix it 100% with NO doubts whatsoever! Gonna be a case of seeing how it goes - but you're just gonna be thinking about it every time you hit that damn button! I hate grey area faults like that. Go easy my friend and I hope you gain some confidence with it. But saying that, I've watched enough of your videos to know that you'll never fully trust it again! :-)
Yep. Everytime I reach for that button, PTSD kicks in... 😂
I'm only part way in, but I think you're still in 4wd, even when the light is out, when you have this lockup. It really makes sense when it locked up with the clutch pressed in. I believe that after you have shifted back into 2wd, you need to back up (reverse) to relieve the tension from being in 4wd, allowing the T-case to shift back to 2wd.
But if the overdrive would engage while in 4wd, the rear wheels would spin faster than the front wheels, so it would feel like the fronts locked up, not the rears.
I agree with @number40fan.
@@diederikvandedijk Lots of weight on the front wheels. Hardly anything on the rear.
@@number40Fan I know but still, if that keeps the fronts from locking, the rears would have to spin faster in overdrive, not lock up.
@@diederikvandedijk true, but the rears spinning at a different speed would FEEL like the rears locked even if they’re going faster because they broke traction first due to the increased friction on the front tires due to the weight
I changed an idler arm on my Dad's car in 1968. I worked in a junk yard in the 70's. I have gone to auto mechanic school in the early 80's. I currently own 7 old school vehicles that I have built, restored, resurrected or refurbished that are 25 years old or older. Three of them are 4X4's. I watched this video quite a few times and the best advice that I can give you is to consider buying another truck and still keep the one you have. You can tinker and fix the one you buy until you are confident it is a good replacement then give the Dodge to your mother-in-law.
LOL, never leave the least accessible bolt for last. when you release all the others it can add to the last ones tension.
John, thank you for explaining complex things in a way that we understand. That’s a gift. Happy Thanksgiving!
Thank you for having/filming different projects at any point in time. When you release one, we get to see from start to finish, making the conclusion much clearer and reducing our mental load. 10 min before the end, I was worried I had to think about coming back in 5 weeks to get the resolution, which I won't because you though of that and I'm grateful. Though, I'll be back in 5 weeks anyway because the way you present your projects is very interesting. Anyway, thanks for what you are doing & your attention to details!
Good Evening John, I so love when I get a notification for you videos. You are brilliant at explaining how things work. Keep up with the great work you do and have a fantastic weekend 👍👍👍
I think your solenoid got "lazy" and the gears were getting into "no man's land" and only engaging partially. That said, sometimes you just have to accept the unknown and move on.
Must be nice to have such a venue (AKA farm) to provide so much content for the success of your channel 😊
I have to admit I find joy also in fixing stuff. Guess we’re weird. Work being fun?
Yep
Hey John,
I have a newer ram with the diesel and a manual transmission. My transfer case is an electronic shift type so this may not apply. Sometimes when I'm in 4WD and shift back to 2WD, the 4WD will stay engaged for a bit even though the light is off and I've changed the selector. I typically need to drive around a bit and wiggle the steering to get it to pop back out.
Could be that your 4WD is staying engaged and that's causing your issues.
I've also had the rear wheels lock up when the exhaust brake came on going down a hill in the rain. I was lucky nobody else was driving too close to me because I definitely went very sideways and needed a new pair of pants after that ordeal, so I feel your pain.
Haven't watched the whole video yet so waiting to see what you find when you tear it down. I'll edit this comment if I think of anything else relevant.
The part you called a bearing in your hand is a ramp for a one way roller clutch. there is a race on the outside of the rollers. It probably has chatter indention grooves in the outer race. Probably not free wheeling at times and binding up. With no servicable parts, you did the right thing replacing it. Great video!
I don’t have the means or resources to work on anything myself, but I learn so much just from watching your content and some of the other guys that post car content. It’s nice especially considering I had no one to teach me about this stuff growing up.
I'm wondering if there was something wrong with one of the hydraulic pistons that engaged the overdrive. If one was pushing harder than the other it might bind it up. It looked like it was just an o ring seal, so even a small tear could lead to big problems as you well know. It might also explain why it was hit or miss. Maybe it sealed and allowed enough pressure for engagement sometimes. I couldn't tell from the video, but I'm wondering if one piston pushing would cock it enough to allow both clutches to engage which would differently lock the back wheels up. You would basically have two "different" input sources fighting each other to spin the output. Either way another great video John.
I don't blame you for not feeling comfortable with that fix (in the absence of some clear indication that something was truly broken). Given the frightening nature of your rear wheels locking up, I'd have my doubts too.
When you send the unit back to the suppler do they recondition them for resale? Maybe they could tell you what the issue was. Great video though
Good thing you have a video to put it back together!
I was surprised to see that new unit get installed. I really thought some bailing twine and or wire would fix the old unit.
It sounds to me that your 4WD isn't fully disengaging. Your front drive line, while still attached to the spinning front tires, would be the only thing I can think of that would be strong enough to lock up your rears, which I suspect aren't actually locking up but skidding because of the different ratios when your overdrive is engaged. I'd check the mechanics that comprise your 4WD engaging and disengaging, starting with your xfer case shifter linkage.
Sounds reasonable
If the 4WD wasn't disengaging , it would lock up the first time he tried going to OD, wouldn't it? It's locking up after successfully engaging multiple times in 2WD. That would mean the WD is engaging by itself at random times. Is that even possible? I know relatively little about the details of 4WD systems, let alone this particular one. So, grain of salt required.
I was hoping he'd put a camera on the outside wheels to see the wheels "locking up" in order to know if it was a fully locked or different spin rate that was the issue.
And I might add, yet another benefit of my 1st Gen Dodge Cummins 4WD. Manual locking front hubs. :)
Especially as it happens with the clutch fully depressed
I think there's a high likelihood it was the sprag clutch, if that were to lock up, then you would be engaging both gear ratios at the same time and that would cause a lockup of all the rotating parts. The fact that you also noticed wear and play around those components is a pretty good indicator that was the problem. I would expect pretty tight tolerances are necessary in that sprag for it to work properly.
That gear venders was definitely wore out , it was probably catching on the sprag because of excessive movement, I enjoy all your videos great work
I just wanted to thank you for cleaning that unit before you pulled it out not many people don't do that and it bothers me !Thank you again for doing the right thing Mike
I would check the transfer case and rear end for any damage (regardless of what caused the problem). That might give you more confidence that the problem has been resolved.
I had something akin to this on my Ford Ranger - not quite the same - which was an ABS sensor on my rear differential had a fault (combination of Body control module - ABS sensor and a wiring loom damage that was causing erratic performance) - it was causing brakes to apply erratically sometimes harder than intended, not at all or 100%... and errors of errors on the dash (Difflock on - when it wasn't - ABS Inversion On when Off and Off when on) Replaced the loom and sensor - all good. Something to think about ...
But this isn't happening during braking, brakes can't apply unless your using bake pedal or in some traction control applications.
John here's a trick for you on removing that difficult bolt - heat is the right idea, but you have to think about it in the other direction. Go cold. Next trip to Harbor Freight buy a couple cans of compressed air; if you half press the valve with can inverted it will dispense fluids that are at negative below zero degrees. You can instantly freeze out a bolts with cold contractions to break it free. You can also alternate between cold and hot BUT be very careful the liquid contains highly flammable substances.
I have the GV overdrive in my 79 F250 4x4 and love it…Certainly improves drivability on the highway and on rural roads. Not the same as your rig of course. I think the lack of parts support is due to the overall reliability of the unit. The sprag clutch and output bearing seemed pretty worn. Just replacing those would buy you a little time but the planetary and clutch surfaces would be next and likely, when rebuilt by GV, the case is the only part carried forward and everything internal is new. Oh, I found the engagement/disengagement of the unit to be clutch-free (though it took me awhile) if up-shifting, easing up on the throttle and engaging works smoothly. On down-shift, giving a little throttle is the key. Thanks for the content, always enjoyable.
It is interesting that the new setup has a different speed sensor config and the one you pulled out was loaded with magnetic schmoo. When it got up to temp the schmoo moved enough to interfere with the signaling and it crossed up the gear sets. That is my WAG anyhoo. Cheers to you for your efforts and keeping us learning and entertained! MOAR Please and Thank You
Is it possible the solenoid was only partially engaging, creating an event where the clutches were stuck in an intermediary state? Essentially, the clutches were not locked to either points of contact, so no gear set was engaged to deliver an output? Pulling power from the solenoid caused the springs to force the clutches back in, thus reinstating the 1:1 gear set.
i was thinking the same, partial engagement caused by faulty solenoid or low oil pressure.
This was exactly my thoughts as well. A sticky solenoid would cause the clutches to partially engage, locking the gearset to both ratios. The sprag gear needs to engage the output shaft to maintain speed BEFORE the clutch engages in order to mate the outshaft to the planetaries. If the clutch tries to engage first, the output shaft will slow down and lock up on the one way bearing as it is rotating slower than the input shaft. THAT's what is causing the outshaft to lockup during engagement.
I concur
I’m thinking either low oil pressure or the solenoid or its wiring is not dependable. Steve
Agreed , new solenoid would have been around $20
I have a 2006 Cummins 2500 and would love to see you do routine maintenance (ball joints, tie rods, bearing replacements, etc), as well as other things like exhaust brake additions and stuff like that. With the way you film and explain things it would be super beneficial. Great video and thank you so much for the content!
planetary gears, can lock that way, if clerance betwen is too big , also dont leave any marks of jam ...
Really? So that may very well have been it. Good to know. Cheers.
Hey Jon, interesting video. With steel fasteners in an aluminum case, its always a good idea to use an anti seize compound on the threads to make it a lot easier to remove. A standard lock washer will keep the bolts from backing out.
The only thing you didnt check (on camera at least) is the solenoid. Beyond that, im thinking it may have been stacked tolerances on the wear.
I would agree with wes. Seems like the clutch is staying engaged on both sides at the same time causing it to bind up against itself. Or somehow thatone way sprag gear was locking up somehow. Always enjoy your videos. And wes's. 😊
How refreshing to come across an honest and somewhat alternative opinion to the overdrive unit. To hear some other CZcams channels you could be excused for thinking that the particular company in question could do no wrong and were totalling infallible.
I sure wish you lived closer to me, John, we could be buddies. I could come over and borrow your tools and equipment all the time. It would be great... for me at least. Would you at least consider moving a little closer to me? That way I wouldn't have to drive so far. Think about it anyway. 🤣 Thanks for the video and Happy Thanksgiving!
You actually are that guy, huh? lol
That sounds very reasonable to me , maybe take one of his cows on a road trip and share the love ?
Interesting how they wont let you buy parts to rebuild it yourself but they want you in the control boarding moving jumpers. (that that its hard just odd)
You're not scared to give anything a go, are you John. It's very entertaining for us guys on CZcams.. 👍👍
The reason you fill an outboard from the bottom. The case is sealed. No Vent. The fill and drain holes are small. If you try to fill from the top you would have to keep stopping and let trapped air out. Then when full you would need to keep checking and topping off until all the oil goes down and displaces all the air. Filling from the bottom just make the overall process much easier. With a nozzle cut as large as possible and still fitting tight in the drain hole, as the fluid is push in it displaces the air out the top hole so as soon as oil comes out you know it is full.
You need an indexable head ratchet. SUPER helpful for bolts like those top bolts you were trying to get out when removing the overdrive from the truck. 👍🏻
Learn something new every day.
I hadn't run across one of the indexing ratchets until you mentioned it and I went looking.
I was thinking I would have heated and bent a box end wrench to break the bolt loose. Indexing ratchet would cover more than just one job.
HF, even though they are not great, will take care of the occasional oddball bolt location. $23.00 well spent
@@OldSneelock exactly! I have the snap on version but I looked at the harbor freight ones and believe like you say they would serve that oddball bolt location well!
Don’t you hate when a mechanical tear down doesn’t lead to a smoking gun?
I am more and more frustrated these days with vendors no longer offering parts even though the manuals have part breakdowns.
I have an 06 Ram 3500 with an automatic transmission around 130k miles. Seems like they fixed the overdrive issue on the automatics. The only issue I had with the transmission is that Dodge had a recall on some of the internal parts on the transmission but it’s not covered by dodge. I had to order all the parts separately and then have a transmission do the swap.
I love how you explain everything - not just in this video but in all of your videos
A weak solenoid could partially engage the oil pump,the pump would hydrolock because driven and not able to send oil to the pistons and not able anymore to dump to the oil pan anymore.
It would lock up lock the mechanism the time the solenoid stroke.
If you try filling the lower unit with oil from the top, the oil will simply spill over. This is because gear oil oil is thick, and because it is thick, it traps the air inside your empty lower unit as you pour. I have tried it many times and it will not fill from the top. The containers the oil comes in all fill the hole almost completely which is also a problem. There will be air pockets inside those tight toleranced gears and burn up your lower unit. Many have been burnt up because of this.
There is a fill plug on the top for a reason. If the unit was meant to be filled from the bottom, there would be no top fill plug. Why do you think manufacturers had top fills plugs ? To fill from the top. Don't make a simple task complicated.
@71sixpak yeah it's there because they both have to be open. I have filled hundreds of them. Its not complicated at all. It wasn't made to be a fill plug. It was made to be a vent.
My Johnson outboard motor says to fill it from the top.
It can be done, its not recommend. You can do it with a syringe that takes forever and doesn't solve the problem. In simple physics, when you fill an area with something, the air from that area moves. To fill the lower unit from the top, you have to keep the bottom unit plug closed. So, the only option for the air is to pass from the top plug and with most containers fill that top plug. It's been proven time and time again that this the reason for burnt up lowers that were not filled all the way. I've seen it many times.
The oil used to fill outboard units is really heavy. So, the air can’t pass through them easily. As a result, many air pockets are created. The oil will keep overflowing even though the unit isn’t full yet. People think it's full and it's not.
That way, a lot of oil will be wasted. And you will find it very difficult to fill the lower unit.
Bottom line is that alot of people have tried to force it in the top and when it pushed back out they thought it was full and burnt their lowers up. That is why it is recommended and easier to fill from the bottom and not have to worry about it. The only outboards that are supposed to be filled from the top have a vent. Mostly bigger outboards.
It is supposed to be a .78:1 ratio. That is the most ideal ratio that GV found. It was around $900 for a rebuild when I swapped mine out about 15 years ago with over 100k miles on it in my 79 Chevy C20 pickup. It was cool to see what makes up the inside. From what I read, it uses 3 different transmission technologies.....clutch, planetary, etc. They can not be used for engine braking, so you must be in direct drive going down a grade, otherwise it can burn up the unit. They are supposed to handle 1200 hp in stock form but are also built for more power. They are used in drag racing for top speed at the end of the 1/4 mile in engines up to 4000-5000 HP (Tom Bailey's car with an SMX big block), but plenty of racers have had issues with Gearvendors over the last year or so. They also use them on the powerglide and TH400 transmissions so they have overdrive for the street portion of the race week events. I have no idea what was going on with your unit, but mine lost reverse. When I pulled it, I think one of the bars may have been loose for those pistons, but like you, I decided just to swap it out because it was on my daily driver work truck and I didn't want to be stuck 60 miles from home in SoCal traffic or out on a trip towing my trailer. Now, vehicles have more gears so the GV units are used even less. The 10 speed behind my 2020 duramax is a dream to drive no matter the load, driving conditions, or speed......it always hauls ass but also can get 20 mpg at 85 mph on the freeway. Those holes in the body of your truck remind me that I have one little spot of cancer in the passenger door on my 79 and the only other rust is surface rust on the 20 year old paint and a very thin layer under the truck while my 88 K5 Blazer only has surface rust.......at least there is something good about living in komnifornia.
Intermittent makes me think electronic, not innards. I'm thinking the solenoid, or its connections.
In either case, you've got that covered. Nice work. Take care sir.
Hi John, Because you identified several components that appeared to have excessive wear, even though the wear particles were not found (possibly drained out with the oil change) you may consider installing a magnetic drain plug and switching to a 100%/full synthetic gear lube to provide added protection to the moving parts. A magnetic drain plug may give you a warning of things to come. Love your videos, thanks for posting.
Two comments: First, I love how you clean stuff up (often) before working on it. I never understood those who seem to love working on greasy grimy stuff as if it's some "badge of honor". Second, sorry about your truck, but it IS a Crysler product. I had issues with their stuff in the 90s and a district Crysler service manager actually told me "if you are dumb enough to buy one, you deserve the problems". Enough said on that brand.
I would remove the rear differential cover to inspect that with your camera and a magnet. That would suck winter or not if the rear end locked up. Not sure if a shake could cause a bearing to go bad and make the pinion gear move so it would bind on the ring gear or not? If you have gear lube and sealant it will be cheap to check plus you can see through the drain hole with the scope.
Farm craft and watch Wes work our hands down the two best channels on CZcams. I subscribe to many others but these are the two I look forward to! Thanks guys....
I have been watching andrew camarata for years also, CEE for the past year or two. Apparently the algorithm gods want me to watch you too. My wife noticed how engaged I became as I was talking to you like you could hear me. 🤦🏽😂thank you for your content. It’s a blend of the two others I mentioned.
The transfer case most likely will have aluminum shift forks with plastic inserts at the wear points. Common for those to wear out and wind up with metal on metal with the shift fork being the consumable part. I have seen them razor thin and eventually fail. Time will tell in your case, but the idea you brought up with the thump the old Gear Vendor made when shifting into overdrive may have excited a wear point in the transfer case causing it to go into 4th and lock up the business. With new tolerances in the new one that may cover that up for some time if it exists at all but a great theory all the same you have John. Thanks for a great video as always.
You heathen! You used white zip ties! Also, you need a set of half moon box wrenches. Horror Fright carries those, as does Amazon and any other number of tool vendors.
20:22 you gotta get a cheap set of those 90 degree angle wrenches with the crazy bend in the middle. when you need them, you REALLY need them
The good news is that since it is “farm only”, you’ll not be going fast or worried by traffic. Just “steer” clear of big mama.
I forgot how terribly cheap the interiors were on that era of Dodge vehicles. 😬
don't forget how much less the trucks cost
I wish John was my neighbour.
I have no idea what the problem was with your overdrive. I just like watching you try to figure it out. Your one of my favorite CZcams channels to watch. Thank you Jon for posting these videos. You’re very talented.
the reason you fill lower units on boats from the bottom to push the water out of the fill plug btw. Water will ride on top of the gear oil so you cant push it out of the bottom. Cant leave water in a lower unit as it will freeze and crack it over winter.. keep up the great videos, love them!
You should always loosen hardest bolt first
It’s a dodge, what did you expect?
Except the problem was with an aftermarket add-on transmission that has nothing to do with Dodge.
@@motor2of7 dodge still sucks.
My 2004 Ram Hemi has more mileage than your mom- 300,000 miles.
@@motor2of7exactly
Poobaru
In Europe we call the sprag clutch a one-way clutch. Notorious for sticking and misaligning when worn. The splines between the moving parts can also stick if worn or misaligned. You also need some slop in a planetary due to tolerances. When torque is passed over the planets it will center itself so you need at least 1 of the parts to be compliant. Make sure the oil is compatible with the clutch material. If you have an oil without proper additives you can change the friction characteristics in the clutch causing wear or swelling. Good job in deciphering the function. Thanks for an enjoyable video from an OEM drivline guy.
The friday night just got Better ❤
You definately got this right!!! Just imagine if one of those lock ups, especially when towing something, caused the drive shaft to snap. I don't wnnt to think about that..
I love this channel, and most of the time I have no idea what you're doing. 🙂👍😇
Nice to see the ecosystem at work here with Wes chiming in. Pretty disconcerting problem to have.
Same exact issues one time in my life with an Volvo 740GLE with 4 gear manual with overdive. Turned out to be the selenoid that made it behave the exact same way as your overdrive. Replaces the selenoid and it worked after that that for over 100k km.
Yeah I'm WITH YOU Jon , I hate not finding THE issue , especially on such a drastic problem like that. I was hoping someone would come up with the definitive answer in the comments. Excellent video though!!! I just THINK I'm a DIY'er until I see your skills in action! 👍❤️👍
Can't offer any suggestions so this is to satisfy the CZcams algorithm and that I enjoy the channel. Thanks for sharing.
😊
that whole overdrive inside and out looks very light duty to me. especially of what that truck is capable of. always entertained by your videos thanks.
You've convinced me. Automatic with overdrive!lol! Great video!
Interesting problem. Some ideas:
Anti-seize on the bolts in aluminum.
Use best oil possible - change every 6 months.
Was the clutch solenoid worn & perhaps binding up sometimes? Deformed sealing o-ring?
I always enjoy your videos and the reasoning applied. A very conscious DIYer. Often brave, too.
Thanks John, helps a lot.
If you look up dodge in the dictionary, it says, "to avoid." This is good advice and should be followed.
I like my truck! That's still funny, though! ;-)
Jon, glad you are okay. Shame you had to take a deep dive on the overdrive. Best of luck with what is going to come up.
I won't pretend to be a drivetrain expert, but I've been driving and repairing Dodges for half a century. The lighter duty Dakota and Durango (with the np231 transfer case) have a known issue that may or may not be relevant to your larger truck (probably with a 241 or 271 case). The transfer case is "sticky" internally. When you switch from 4wd to 2wd, the light goes out, the shift lever goes where it is supposed to go, and things clunk a bit, but IT'S STILL IN 4WD. If you drive around enough in 2wd, it will eventually unlock, but if you are going from dirt to pavement and want to speed up the process, drive backwards for 100 feet or so and yank the steering wheel left and right a few times. Huge pain in the ass, but it always works. If your transfer case model shares the same internal design, you may have just been stuck in 4wd which would cause the two axles to run at significantly different speeds. At highway speed, that could easily be misconstrued as a lockup.
You did an outstanding job of explaining how it worked, thanks! Totally understand the frustration of not finding the definitive fault but it was great to watch you troubleshoot as always!
John, for the output to lock, it needs to lock against the metal frame, and think: When the clutch is not engaged, the 3 satellites are actually engaged to the output large gear (they are engaged all the time, but not rotating on their shafts since the driving shaft is rotating everything. In theory the clutch doesn't need to lock (inner side of the pan, to the outside of the output large gear for transferring x1 (overdrive disabled), since that funny one-way bearing will not allowed the output gear to rotate less than the driver shaft. That is the reason for that one-way bearing, if something goes bad, that bearing takes over and keep transferring power. But the important thing to remember is the 3 satellites gears will be engaged all the time to the output large gear. When you engage overdrive, the pan on the driver side locks to contraption frame and also locks the gear where the satellites run over, now the satellites rotate on their own shaft, and by this rotation and difference of teeth, they will transfer 22% more rotation to the output large gear. You were correct on that analysis. But, the satellites being always connected and engaged to the output large gear, they can not have a different angular speed from the output large gear. If they do, lockup will happens. What I think is happening, the pan that moves and locks against the frame when you engage overdrive will pull along the large output gear, even a small bit, (you saw lots of plays in that), during this bit of time, the clutch pan will lock against the frame, and dragging the output large gear along will lock the output shaft. The problem happens because the clutch should be locked against the frame in overdrive, OR detached from the frame and latched to the large gear, both situations are happening due play in the system. The damage on the output bearing (you saw some sharp edges) is a feedback loop of the output large gear locking (and wheels) and that should never happen while the driver shaft is turning, that is the same of driving in reverse, and the one-way bearing try to overcome that and it cant, because is a lockup loop inside that contraption. The way that work is the force from the transmission through the drive shaft turn the 3 satellites, but as the gear where they are sit is also rotating, so they transmit 1x1 force to the wheels, the simple fact of stopping and holding the sit gear, will make the satellites to rotate over that gear and transmitting 22% more rotation to the output. That is a crude but smart over rotation system, but any play in the system will be a disaster. I believe the only wrong assumption you made is that the clutch pan is what is transferring power to the output, it is not, the power is transferred by the 3 satellites all the time, the pan is just to make the satellites teeth to run 1x or 1.2x of the driver shaft, and to keep everything aligned, what in your case it is not, lots of play. The comments of watchweswork is correct.
I seem 30 years of gear trans & agree that the radical and axial play weren’t excessive enough for that issue. the inductive sensors signals get corrupted, low voltage delivery to the solenoid, or the speedo connection being more probable than anything mechanical in the O/D case. You Excellently described and demonstrated the inner workings of it!! Love the vids!!
Like others have said, I think you had a partial engagement of the overdrive. Since the unit makes it’s own hydraulic pressure, you could have rigged up some wood supports to set the thing on your lathe. Then use a tight fitting rubber hose to drive the input shaft to take the worry out of perfect alignment and keep from breaking something if the input shaft locked up. Then spin it up to speed and give 12 volts to the solenoid. You could run lots of repeat tests in short order to hopefully replicate the problem.
I think it's the Sprag Clutch isn't releasing and the over drive unit is getting stuck in drive and overdrive at the same time and a good transmission shop or good transmission rebuilder can source the clutch for the over drive unit and doing a Unloaded Test like it being on the Lift is not going to Provide adequate information on whether the new fluid is helping or not because there is no weight on the wheels or the axle so none of the drive train Is loaded Jon when a open diff is off the ground and spinning under load it dosent always force both wheels to spin the same direction the spiders need to be engaged like the truck is on the ground driving forward @7:40 @FarmCraft101
Check the oiler in the transfer case. I had my ford do something similar on time. Thanks for sharing
The metallic shavings on the pickup were attenuating the tone wheel pulses down to borderline amplitude. When you cleaned it, you fixed it.