I used to empathize with my vulnerable narcissist a lot and really struggled with this idea between APD and vulnerable narcissism, but an idea that really helped me through and settle things is this: both of us coming from trauma, we are cut from the same cloth. The difference is I reflect and push everything inwards (shame and guilt) while she would always project outwards on to everyone else.
Ohh. I really like that distinction. I can certainly relate, as someone who’s always been making excuses for my dad when both of us had to deal with my more histrionic and explosive mom’s temper my whole childhood. He’s always been trying to make us seem like we’re the same, even though he’s bad at taking accountability for anything and I blame myself for EVERYTHING. Thank you for sharing.
Trauma is the reason but not an excuse for their evil. Not everyone becomes what traumatized them and aspire to seek vengeance in new victims, most work really hard to never make anyone feel like that ever again.
@@winxclubstellamusa Oh, it's certainly not an excuse, more so an explanation that I needed for myself while I was grappling with my own experience. I just couldn't get past the *why* they would react to things or situations in the way they did when we had similar experiences. This framing helped me come to terms!
I have avoidant personality and social anxiety. I’ve always been labeled as narcissistic by anyone who wasn’t a counselor or therapist. I’m not passive aggressive and I can’t stand dealing with passive aggression. It causes me to shut down and shut out the world. The entitlement of others also causes me depression. This video was so helpful for me. It perfectly describes what I’ve been struggling with. Thank You.
Avoidant Personality describes me from Junior high on. Only recently have I started to realize that I don’t have to let certain people in my life. I was constantly criticized about my looks, my weight, everything I said or did was scrutinized. I’m actually more of an extrovert. I didn’t know they were projecting their own negative feelings onto me. I now have friends who accept me.
@@LindaC616 Awww Precious one, how painful! The irony is most teens (and adults) are dealing with the same issues, to feel accepted. Knowing that was a given and helped me through my teens. Staying authentic, in the moment, humble, and a sense of humor within these common issues allowed me to connect with multiple 'clicks' in HS and College. It has served me well with close friendships throughout my life. Don't ever take a valued relationship for granted, and know the difference between a real friend and an acquaintance. 💌
From my experience another key difference is that in the avoidant pd, part of the social anxiety comes from the knowledge that their disorder might cause discomfort in others in a social situation. But a vulnerable narcissist delights in causing discomfort in others, and will go out of their way to passively create discord between people, especially family members. They get positively giddy, it's really rather disturbing.
Or they will present a face to the public of dying on the hill of keeping up a public post that is specifically devoted to cutting someone down. Which amounts to more or less the same thing.
My mother was like this. She would claim that one of us was mad at the other, or that one of us said horrible things. I was apparent that this out her at the center of attention. If I wanted to know how my sister was doing, I had to ask her because she convinced me my sib wouldn’t respond. Lost about 20 years of relationships with my family
Needed this, because I am a fearful avoidant, and I always worry "what if I am a narcissist?" But I am honestly socially phobic and scared of people...
I had social phobia years ago. I got over it doing daily Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, I went to an group for those with anxiety disorders conducted by my local hospital, and saw a therapist weekly. My therapist was the one who suggested CBT, which you can learn in "The Feeling Good Book" by Dr. David Burns. I was bullied from the age of 6 and my father also became abusive and this made me afraid of people. It was very hard to get over, but if you are determined and put in the effort, it works.
What about the Narcissist who ‘avoids’ important communication and discussions that a normal healthy, autonomous relationship would have. Avoiding communication by the following: emotional outburst, defensiveness/accusations, argumentative, interrupting and speaking over their partner, and/or rudely walking away?
Definitely, a covert/vulnerable narcissist based on your description because the person knew that the communication would lead to his role in the issue you're trying to tackle. Even if he does get into the communication process, there will always be a comeback or being argumentative to every line that points out his role ie. deflective and shifts the blame either to you, another person, or even inanimate objects like a rock or things that are beyond our control like the weather.
I think the difference is that avoiding communication for a person with avpd is just a fear of the result or anxiety, but they won’t react with rage or outbursts just to avoid something. Now they might walk away but it’s not due to rage, it’s more due to a lack of coping skills for the Avpd type.
Yes! All of these ring true. Avoiding is also a form of manipulation/controlling behavior. (A person with a ‘victim mentality’ feels justified in their negative behavior.) Avoidance allows them the opportunity to escape responsibility.
I have learned that the thing that makes someone an avoidant is a deep self and social anxiety (which is pathological avoiding) but a genuine desire to connect and can be receptive to opening up in alternative ways. A narcissist that is avoiding discussion is an abusive tactic to control the flow of information. So an avoidant will be distant and may push, but it's not outward projecting and they can still be receptive to good things, while a narc will purposefully and selectively avoid in order to keep their image. In the case of my narcissistic abuser, she could and did make friends with anyone. She would love bomb people and become super close, but anytime I presented a disccussion point or a sore spot, she would deliberately disconnect from it, then cling very tightly to me shortly after (she refused to let go of me, avoidants are more likely to just distance and push away). Anytime there was a discussion, it was on her terms, she was not receptive to my perspective, and she would use the whole host of abusive tactics. In short, avoidants desire connection, may distance but ultimately can work with others if presented with alternatives. Narcs will cling onto a supply, but use other tactics to get what they want out of it, one of which may be stonewalling (and other withholding communication tactics)
They avoid because any and all feedback, even the thoughts and feelings of others, is interpreted as an attack and insult on them. Eg. My father would explode and say that I’m cussing him out by asking where the scallions are from. He would then run away and lock himself in his room after slamming doors and cabinets and silent treatmenting me as I desperately tried to reason with him. You can reason with an avoidant pd and attachment style, you can’t reason with a cluster b at all!
Narcissists usually work to a common pattern; manipulation, control and dominance, so the recipient serves their needs and interests, and fulfils an agenda. Speaking from my avoidance personality disorder, the psychological damage caused by others is long lasting and affects your psyche, which is your identity as a human being. If you don't fit in socially, you have to find ways to protect yourself. Loneliness can be the best alternative. In regards to relationships, you have to spot the tell-tale signs from the beginning. My ex girl friend uses reward and punishment to get what she wants. Whereas, my persona is if she dates me fine, if she doesn't that equally fine. She still contacts me. Over the years, I think I've had feelings and ability to love others beaten out of me. Nowadays, I do things on my terms. I don't do things just to please others anymore. It's a game of table tennis. You hit the ball and the person should return the serve. It shouldn't be one sided!
Needed to see this. I have struggled with AvPD my entire life and have always struggled to find proper care, and when times get rough fall into the trap of returning to my narcissistic parents where my dysfunctional role never changes. Heard the phrase “you can’t heal in the place that made you sick” and it finally highlighted why I wasn’t getting better.
I know how you feel. I know it doesn’t really change anything but just wanted to let you know you’re not alone. It’s been over a year now since I last went and stayed with my parents while I was struggling. It’s been and continue to be super tough and lonely a lot of the time, but I finally realized I had to get off this ride that just kept me going in circles and hurting me so much. You deserve healing and good people in your life, and the proper support system. I’m still looking for mine myself, but I’m convinced it’s out there for me to find one day, no matter how hard it is to believe that during the difficult times. Wishing you all the best. ♥️
This phrase is very reassuring for me... thank you for sharing! Reminds me I was right to keep a safe distance from my parents & not to feel so guilty when they guilt trip me.
@@gianniclaud unfortunately that's often the case... but them making you sick probably is making it hard to meet your financial goals. It's probably doing you more harm than good. Look for help outside of your parents. There could be organizations and community help near you that could at least get you to a space of your own and help you until you get on your feet, so you can actually heal & reach your own independence. It's worth at least trying! I was with a Narc husband for a decade because I couldn't financially support myself independently... but staying was what was keeping me from ever being able to reach that goal. Sometimes you have to find another way & get your own space first or you risk getting stuck forever or sustaining so much mental & emotional shrapnel that you may never fully recover or at least lose years of opportunities and fulfilling life. Well, that's my take anyway. I want to encourage you to find a safe way out of a shared space with your parents especially if they are Narcissists. The emotional exhaustion alone caused by them could keep you stuck & make everything you are trying to do in life 10x harder.
Avoidant daughter of a vulnerable narcissist. These can definitely look the same but come from a different place. I remember being bullied as a kid and tearfully telling my dad that the other kids didn't like me. He visibly relaxed and confided: "I know... I hate being with people too." This confused me because that wasn't what I had said. But that was how my dad bonded with me, through our shared avoidance. He actually encouraged it. He saw it as a sign that I, like him, felt superior to other people and that he could therefore open up and be himself with me. In fact, I felt worthless and believed he was the only person in the world who liked me. And the fact that his "affection" could periodically and unpredictably turn to blistering rage and contempt only solidified my mistrust of people and relationships.
Omg this sounds like me! I was bullied in school too and my dad would be nice sometimes and then have explosive rage and be verbally abusive. I'm pretty sure my dad was a psychopath and my mom is a vulnerable narcissist.
The more I learn the more hopeless I get. I’ve had almost 30 years of therapy and narcissism was never addressed. Now I’m looking for a therapist and when I say I think I’m a vulnerable narcissist they scoff and say ‘no, you can’t be or you wouldn’t have been seeking help’. A therapist literally said that and another suggested the same. I’m an introvert, I have anxiety and depression, possibly bipolar2. I’ve said for years that my default emotion is anger. In the last several years the social anxiety has gotten worse - avoidant disorder? I’m about to be 63yo and I’m feeling more hopeless and helpless than ever 😢
Sorry you're struggling. Not an therapists are the best fit nor can put aside generalizations. My brother-in-law is in therapy, huge narcissist, yet he (and apparently his therapist) don't realize his issue stem from that! He's totally clueless, so obviously the therapist isn't getting it. Maybe go to therapy for yourself but don't come through the door with a diagnostic. Talk about what you do, feel, etc. Whatever the diagnosis is not as important as what you can gain from getting tips on how to live better from your therapist. But if you do have bipolar but all means, ask a specific evaluation cause that can be medicated. Good luck
With due respect, you might be projecting. The more we search for anything the more we found it... Many people are attacked to narcissists, as they select for people with high self-esteem, specially if they had narcissistic parents.
@@user-uc1oy3zk4t maybe it's "Baader-Meinhof phenomenon" which is "a frequency bias" Where one "notice something new, at least it’s new to you. It could be a word, a breed of dog, a particular style of house, or just about anything. Suddenly, you’re aware of that thing all over the place. In reality, there’s no increase in occurrence. It’s just that you’ve started to notice it." Humor, doesn't need to be subjected to self inquiry it just gets to exist.
I just shut up and withdrew. My thoughts are my own. Gone full circle. He played defensive and very angry - instead of seeing it as my plea for better communication and some empathy . He has criticized everything single aspect of my life, my family, my body and my contributions. I feel devalued, marginalized and unattractive - so I removed myself and moved to the spare bedroom. I love it. Did him a favor - who would want to be intimate with someone they hold in such contempt, is so unattractive and is terribly flawed?
I’m pretty sure I had avoidant pd for most of my life. Now I just want to be alone cause I like solitude. And I also understand that other peoples issues with me is their issues and not my responsibility.
I've learned so much about myself and my relationships since I started watching your videos Dr. Ramini. Thank you for all you do to help me navigate my life. ❤
Already liked this before watching it, because I really like the topic! As someone with AvPD it sometimes scares me to hear about vulnerable narcissism, because there seems to be some overlap.
I’ve been pondering the same thing recently! I have very avoidant patterns and doubt my autism diagnosis a lot… I see AvPD traits in myself but get so scared that my struggles with shame and socializing are covert narcissism. It really reminds me to actively focus on ruminating on my failures less, because self-absorbed is the last thing I want to be. This video is so well timed! Dr Ramani always seems to have a way with that right when I need it lol
Please more on this!!! Please more on vulnerable Narcs!!! It's such a mentally confusing and scary trap... afraid you are wrong, afraid to hurt them, afraid it's you and you are the one hurting them, moments that mimick empathy and really look like it until something tips their hand... please please please more support for those dealing with Vulnerable Narcs!!!!!
I just got back from a solo traveller vacation. The tour I joined was with a group of solo travellers. It’s a great way to travel if you’re on your own and I’ve enjoyed several of these vacations since I lost my husband a few years ago. A big part of this type of vacation is that you’re forced to join a group of strangers and socialise. I love it. I’ve met some amazing people, some of whom have become friends. On this particular vacation I met a lady of roughly the same age as me. We happened to be sat next to one another on the plane on the journey out, and at the first hotel our rooms happened to be next to one another. She seemed very shy and anxious and said she was relatively new to these vacations. I took pity and took her under my wing until she found her confidence. I missed an early red flag 🚩 and I’m kicking myself for it. She openly disclosed a bit too much about herself and portrayed herself as a victim of life’s circumstance, which immediately played on my empathy. On the first evening the group met for our dinner and we all began the process of getting to know one another, with the exception of this lady. She became my shadow, following me as I mingled with the group. Every time I tried to converse with someone else she would pull me back to listening to her. The next couple of days were challenging because she followed me everywhere. Initially I thought she was very shy and socially awkward, but then I realised she was avoiding joining the group and trying to get me to join the group. I tried to encourage her to mingle and socialise but she kept saying that she thought the group was clique and that she didn’t like anyone except me. I didn’t agree. I could see any signs of anything except a highly social and inclusive group. After two days I had to speak to her about her clinging on to me and explained that I needed my own space to be able to integrate into the group. This is when her anger came out. The gave me one of the most cold stares I’ve ever received. I stuck to my guns and refused to sit next to her at meals or on the coach. I joined with the rest of the group and had a great time. Towards the end of the vacation, one of the other group told me that she’d tried to get this lady to join in right at the beginning. What she said next sent chills down my spine. She said she thought the lady I’ve described above was being controlling towards me and that she felt that I was being isolated. I explained how angry this lady became towards me when I wanted my own space to enjoy my vacation the way I normally do. And this is when I was told that this lady had told the group that she and I had decided not to join the group, and that she and I would be spending the vacation together. I was horrified. She had made this decision on my behalf without any discussion with me. I’m so glad I separated from her as soon as she turned angry. This was a complete stranger to me and yet she latched onto me so quickly it was scary. I thought she was just nervous and shy and avoidant, but she wasn’t. She was a vulnerable narcissist. Later I reflected on the discussions we had and they were all about her. I think I dodged a bullet!
🙏 thank you! I’ve still been struggling to know if I’m a narcissist…because anxiety and social fears and not enoughness and seeking constant reassurance takes a lot of bandwidth I’d rather spend on giving to and thinking about others…so I think I’m selfish…but this definitely clarifies it for me! Also I know I’ve been victim to all the classic narcissistic manipulative tactics and not performing them…so as with someone with AvPD, who worries about self excessively, this is very reassuring! Also I keep fluctuating between AvPD and CPTSD…as proper diagnosis, but I’d imagine I have both or AvPD was caused by CPTSD but hallelujah I’m not a narcissist!!!!
Thank you so much Dr Ramani for answering my email. It was my question. My Narc Ex disclosed that she has Avoidant PD after discarding me & repeated the same line to her next supply after discarding her as well after 3-4 months. My hunch was that my Narc Ex was using AvPD to justify her appalling behaviour & avoid accountability. Needed a sanity check to identify the difference & confirm what I’m dealing with !
I have learned that the thing that makes someone an avoidant is a deep self and social anxiety (which is pathological avoiding) but a genuine desire to connect and can be receptive to opening up in alternative ways. A narcissist that is avoiding discussion is an abusive tactic to control the flow of information. So an avoidant will be distant and may push, but it's not outward projecting and they can still be receptive to good things, while a narc will purposefully and selectively avoid in order to keep their image. In the case of my narcissistic abuser, she could and did make friends with anyone. She would love bomb people and become super close, but anytime I presented a disccussion point or a sore spot, she would deliberately disconnect from it, then cling very tightly to me shortly after (she refused to let go of me, avoidants are more likely to just distance and push away). Anytime there was a discussion, it was on her terms, she was not receptive to my perspective, and she would use the whole host of abusive tactics. In short, avoidants desire connection, may distance but ultimately can work with others if presented with alternatives. Narcs will cling onto a supply, but use other tactics to get what they want out of it, one of which may be stonewalling (and other withholding communication tactics)
Thank you so much for the clarification Dr. Ramani. I think I was probably very APD when I was younger. I was very shy & didn't have many friends. Growing up in the chaotic & judgmental environment that I did, it's no surprise that I was very withdrawn & insecure. Yes I think that being APD made me a sitting duck for narcissistic relationships. I felt so unworthy of being loved, that the minute anyone showed any interest, encouragement or love towards me, I was hooked and would do anything to stay in their good graces. After lots of therapy & being burned a number of times, I have finally been able to find my own self-worth without needing the validation of others.
This was spot on, again! At first I thought, 'oh no is Dr. R going to say that I'm the narcissist?' But Dr. R explained my attachment style perfectly. My avoidant attachment style made me a target for narcissists unfortunately. This kind of information wasn't around 30 years ago.
Just watched the perfectly timed “ A wasted life?” Wonderful ,this posted next! Rock on Dr Ramani! Thank you for supporting humanity to know how they might have been alone in pain, but in compassion and raising their chin up to see the sky, they are surrounded by mostly unseen beautiful tiny twinkling stars that glow with possibilities, a resilient inner-worthiness they did not know of and are love .
I absolutely needed this THANK YOU THANK YOU. I want to cry. We are in couples counseling now and the therapist claims he’s just avoidant and depressed. But there has been so much contempt and rage and apathy and neglect, I could not accept that answer. Now I know the differences. THANK YOU. I was so confused.
Now I am confirmed that I am facing lots of silent treatments in my life when I give slightest feedback or any kind of smallest criticisms.my vulnarable or covert narcissist mom always give rage and yelling or bullying or silent treatment or stonewall when I give her any feedback
You are not alone. Married for 35 years and am now facing up to his betrayal hiding as a porn addiction and it being my fault. The pain of these last 15 months has broken me several times. Thanks to Dr Ramani tho I am beginning my healing journey.
FINALLY! Clarity! This has been my #1 question in dealing with a person officially diagnosed with APD in my life who's remorselessly trampled everyone's boundaries and decimated my life for 25 of my 50 years, using his diagnosis as a sympathy ploy & accountability shield. THANK YOU Dr. Ramani!
CLARIFICATION: Therefore, I believe he was misdiagnosed, in other words, and he's exploiting the APD diagnosis to cover for a more probable Covert/Vulnerable NPD diagnosis (which would explain the lack of empathy or remorse, chronic lying, gaslighting, etc, more accurately). No offense at all meant to those with either diagnosis. I simply wonder how often these are misdiagnosed for one another (especially as individuals with NPD may struggle with staying in therapy long enough to be more accurately evaluated).
I was abused by someone, that when pushed on their avoidant tendencies, will jump to self diagnosing as an avoidant, but it always sat weird with me because... they would push me away but then spam me with love and affection to cling onto me. It made no sense under the lens of avoidance personality disorder. Narcissism describes it perfectly though. She would utilize avoidant tactics (stonewalling) in order to control the flow of information and to secure her supply, but if you threatened to leave that, instead of doing the avoidant thing of letting it go, she would latch back on.
Ive never heard this anywhere else before, but I can confirm 100% true, I prone to fall for love bombing, even if im trying to avoid! that, I can fall especially hard for women with BPD, as we share some characteristics, and we are kind of broken in the same way, only the behaviour differs. I always end up coming out of this relationships even more broken, as they cant deal with my kindness, sometimes even mislabel me that im narcissistic, when im really not. I can miscall someone by accident on my mobile and turn off my phone and isolate myself for a whole week just due to that one accident, because I feel socially inadequate, which is funny because I have good communication skills, I just don't know how to use it properly and who to reach out to, and I cant really find like minded people.
Dr Ramani I can relate to the avoidant personality because everything you described is me in a nutshell. I'm also an introvert loner who always felt like the square peg in a round hole and never felt I really fitted in anywhere. This isolation has become worse and I've become very reclusive the past few years. Coming from an abusive family has made me lose trust and as a result I don't want to be around others for fear of getting treated badly again as it has happened lots where I've let someone in only to discover they're a narcissist. While I really want nothing more than close intimate relationships, friendship and romantic wise, to connect and bond with similar people, I keep people at a distance. I'm also aware I'm possibly shutting out good people! Art, music and nature is the only thing I trust as those activities bring me calm and peace without any social anxiety fears. Thanks again for this very helpful video ❤️
Your comment describes my situation as well. This is me to a T. My fear is that my loner tendencies are now so engrained that I may not be able to make meaningful connections, because my loneliness has become my safe space. Hopefully, someday, we can learn to trust again. I wish you the best, friend.
@@auggiet8380 Yes my loneliness has become my safe space too because I'm the only one I trust. Also I've become exhausted trying to fit in and meet similar minded people who reciprocate equally and don't just take constantly. I've always enjoyed my own company as feel safer alone but I do wish for deep meaningful reciprocal relationships with other good people. Best wishes to you
Janie, I relate to you on so many levels. It wasn't until four months ago that I found a compassionate and caring therapist who has helped me to understand that I was suffering from C-PTSD and that is when everything that I was struggling with became so clear (depression, anxiety, intermittent avoidance, isolation). I had a childhood riddled with trauma and NA. I had used avoidance as a way to cope when I felt any sense of danger. It may be worth looking into C-PTSD for you as well as I have found EMDR/CBT to be a huge game changer in my healing journey. In any case, I wish you all the best in your healing journey.
@@bunchhaus thanks so much for this and yes I definitely think I have undiagnosed CPTSD as I still have flashbacks and nightmares about my abusers. It puts me off going to bed as I get no real restful sleep or relief with the nightmares which makes me wake up exhausted. Sorry you also experienced abuse. I'm glad you have sought help for it and hope you improve daily. I will look into EMDR/CBT. May I ask if there's anything to get rid of the nightmares? Does those techniques you recommend help or any other helpful tips for controlling and banishing nightmares? It's a horrible experience. Thanks again for your comment
I’m so sorry you are experiencing nightmares and emotional flashbacks. They are so debilitating. One of the most helpful techniques I use is journaling. It’s my safe space where I can allow myself to write my feelings w/o judgement. I write in it anytime I have intense feelings and anxiety. At the start of my therapy, I’d write several times a day. It helps me to discover unhealed parts of myself, to see my triggers as information and not as a threat, to have compassion for those parts of me that need to feel heard. It didn’t take long after doing this to find rest and my anxiety residing. I started loving myself in other ways with music (Max Richter - Sleep), bath times, reading about EMDR therapy with candles lit. When it was time for EMDR, I felt ready and prepared to reprocess those memories that were running the show. I hope this helps you in any way to find peace and rest.
I think I had a shy, introverted personality and developed avoidant personality disorder because I knew my narc thought more of and valued his friends, family of origin, classmates and anyone else more than he valued me. I could always feel and sometimes saw my narc studying how I would react to his social circle and would always judge and criticize (especially during an argument) how I “treated his people”As a consequence, I would try to avoid being around anyone my narc thought was “better than me”. I’m fine with people I know or even complete strangers.
A woman I worked with was really strange at times, closing up and avoiding interactions. You just answered my long standing question why she was that way. She was clearly not narcissistic but was a ball of tension in relational interactions, even business interactions. The irony is that she had no apparent reason to be like that - she was competent, attrractive and otherwise driven to succeed in a world that favored men [civil engineeiring]...
If she was attractive, competent and driven in a male dominated industry then every man and woman there was working against her success. There’s no irony in that.
@@oxigenarian9763 supportive in the sense that colleagues make comments about her on CZcams to which she did not consent? I’m sure that’s the kind of support we could all live without.
@@tracydanneo Thank you for your comment - I owe that plenty of thought. Sorry if talking abour her is some form of privacy invasion but you don't know who she is and no one ever will - that will ever remain my secret. I originally believed that she was inconsiderate but now realize that I should have been more compassionate. I hope when others read this, they will stop to consider things when they encounter someone like her. Real life examples help us all grow compassion and understanding, though, don't you think?
I think I might have been a vulnerable narcissist when I was younger... I definitely felt like a victim of the world's bs, and craved the idea of watching everyone else burn. But in my early 20s, about 15 years ago, I started reading psychology books & self-help books, and I started to realize that the biggest thing standing in my way... was myself. Someone once told me, "The truth will set you free, but at first it's gonna hurt like hell." And man, finding out that hard truth was one of the most painful moments of my life. But I'm grateful for that discovery, because it actually gave myself chance to become a better person. I was diagnosed with AvPD about 3 years ago, and getting that diagnosis has helped me take my life in a new direction. Instead of just trying to make myself feel better, I can actually pinpoint certain things about myself that I can work on. Thank you, Dr Ramani, for making these videos and helping to educate the world about mental health
That's just being resentful about being mistreated and hurt, perfectly normal and it doesn't make you a narcissist. You also don't just grow out of being a narcissist too.
narcissism can't be diagnosed that young - children are narcissistic to a degree - they're kids and highly emotional. Your brain, where logical parts as well as emotional parts are used in equal function, isn't fully developed until you're 25.
Fearful avoidant = covert narcissism Dismissive avoidant = full blow narcissist The vulnerable narcissist / fearful avoidant is one hell of a roller coaster ride.
This is tough…I heard the message loud and clear that you were conveying and I feel like AVPD Is highly aggravated by NPD. I do recognize that I need reassurance in my relationship, however, it’s based on experiences with the NPD person. For instance; subtle insults, checking out other women, the yo-yo moods. Every conversation feels like an attack- you try to discuss what’s on your mind and then you somehow face retaliation of an event from your past and are told “well you did this and this is why I respond this way”… and SOMEHOW you end up apologizing and they walk away with their head up. The blank, empty, stare as you explain your feelings and realize they really have no idea how you feel and likely don’t care. And then, the AVPD patterns kick in. Tiptoeing conversations, replaying them several times to make sure you say just the right thing, or not having the conversation at all & just being a peacekeeper. But again, finding it so difficult to walk away from as you’ve invested so much in this relationship and you just hold onto the little bits of hope that seldom come your way. This trickles into so many areas of your life too. The awful realization is you really aren’t the insecure person you become in these relationships. I pray those going through it find their strength, their beauty, and find what brings them peace - whether you stay or go.
Thank you, so much for helping me understand, the people who brought me up were for (severe narcissism), as for the three siblings I have (which I haven't talked to in about a year or so),, their vulnerable narcissists. thank you so much for helping me put another piece of the puzzle together. Actually come to think about (it's not just my siblings) it's the entire freaking family I mean everybody uncles, cousins, (you name it) they don't want to hear anything from me which is fine by me because it wasn't me that made the decision to cut them out of my life they made that decision for me. oh look they did me a favour without even realizing it🙄🙄🙄🙄 🤣🤣🤣🤣
On me no matter how kind we tried to ve tp them...my.mo helped raise my cousin....the. Years then get brother wa ted the baby back.my sister did the sane yo me what goes around co.es around let get hubby go French kiss someone o. Gesven he acted obnoxious
U must have the very same relatives .my drunken u clw could get rid of ne any faster than to give me a laundry list of hoz fog bathing needs then took off in his caddy. I hate that family. They always looked down I'm.done
The vulnerable narcissism describes my abuser so much. She had this grand martyrs complex. She never wanted me to succeed and hated if I succeeded in anything. She had this warped idea of me. However, she also had this whole “my life is harder than yours and it’s all your fault” mindset. Anything she struggled with, it was my fault. Anything I struggled with, she had it worse. It was draining. And if I called her out in anything at all, she called out her struggles and her autism and all this and if I didn’t accept the way that were hurting me btw, she’d toss me aside. She had this whole passive aggressive avoidant thing towards me. I would be at her house with all her friends, and then she’d go into a different room and lock me out. And then got mad if I went home. It was suffocating and exhausting
I have learned a lot from watching your videos. I am diagnosed as having BPD. I prefer to say, I have BPD, rather than I am a BPD. The former says that I am living with this challenge but the latter defines me as my disease. That limited lable can act as a boundary against personal growth and recovery. Where I am going with this is to say, narcissistic people are human too. Their masks, boundaries and rituals may make them seem impenetrable and unchanging. I believe that with the guidance of an astute psychiatrist and/or psychologist it may be possible for you to reach past these boundaries and touch the human. I am saying this as a son of a narcissistic father. His last words to me before the onset of dementia were, "With all the money I spent on you, the schools I paid for you to go to, you're still a failure." Yes, along with my malfunctioning brain chemistry, I am recovering and rising from the ashes. My mom gave me unconditional love, the gift of singing, and the ability to push back. My mom was Irish American. It may be a generalization; Irish women are strong. She taught me how to stand my ground and push back when I had to. Somehow she never fell into the bottle as so many relatives on the Irish side of my family did, myself included (32 years clean and sober this January past). I have had only one Psychiatrist and one Psychologist who were astute enough to help me grow. With no disrespect towards these professions, the most personal growth and recovery I have is with some astute caring people. I credit my voice teacher, Elizabeth S., with helping me unlock boundaries to singing. When singing vocal exercises, if I was having trouble, Elizabeth would ask "What were you feeling when that just happened." Singing is not just about technique, it's about becoming self-aware of your feelings and how they can hinder, but how to generate feelings that help. I had no idea how much tension I carry in my neck and shoulders. Before the pandemic, Elizabeth got up from her piano and missed my shoulders and neck. We often spoke about unlocking and letting go of toxic muscle memory. When she picked up on my uncertainty of a specific exercise, Elizabeth reminded me that I was learning how to use muscles in ways I never used them before. It was a very good conference builder. In AA, I am so grateful for my sponsor. He may be a high school drop out who works in a deli; he gets me. I have experienced a lot of personal growth through him. If I can give any take away from this, surround yourself with people who are not toxic. You are not your disease. It's just one more of life's little challenges. It only seems unsurmountable. It's so much more manageable if you do it one day at a time. You are not crazy, and you are definitely not alone. Willpower has nothing to do with it. Surround yourself with people who help you grow and lift you up when you fail. There is a place for being an "I" . Find your "we". "We are stronger together."
Thank you always fascinating and useful details. I have diagnosed my parents as NPD and AVD.. From my experience the AVP personality traits though painfully insecure are stable. The NPD is all over the place, validation seeking one min, they are angry, then bursting out laughter a few min later, the emotional regulation is like a 12 year old. During the same breath the NPD will insinuate they areaa victim on the exhale, then expert in all areas. The goal seems like "ego rushes" or "ego hits" during a conversation I feel like they are making up ideas because the exchanges are not reciprocal. Both are exhaustingly defensive and get insulted often and easily.
Very insightful. I was worried I have APD, but am pretty sure I am introverted. I am a writer and went into journalism because I had a narcissist sibling who I ensured couldn't be the POA. I'm doing everything I can now to heal the emotional abuse I received from my narcissist sibling as a child. These videos really help.
I'm putting all my hopes into my ex being only avoidant but then I have to remember everything she has done to me: the silent treatment, threatening to find another partner, accusing me of many things and nit-picking things from the past, getting angry, calling situations boring, and so on. She basically justifies this by saying she has the avoidant attachment style. I'm questioning myself and everything and am looking for that glimpse of hope where she is just the avoidant partner.
Dr. Ramani I love your channel! This video has been so enlightening for me. My father has vulnerable narcissism as well as an avoidant personality, and my partner has an avoidant personality style. I have since gone no-contact with my father (to great success and healing), and am actively working with my partner with what troubles our relationship. I so agree with you that the combination of the 2 is really hard to navigate and deal with. However, my partner and I are able to make progress. I have often noticed a lot of similarities between the two of them, and this video has helped me really see the big differences!
I think dismissive avoidants have impaired empathy because they avoid not just processing their own emotions but also those of others they affect. I was trying to educate an avoidant friend about how my childhood contributed to my anxious attachment style and what I’ve been doing to address it. He said to “just get over it”. When I asked how he was getting over his avoidant way of relating, he threw a hissy fit. Then I’m the one having to pull it together, apologise and calm him down.
I am glad you’re pointing out the difference. I also get tired of people feeling that avoidant, antisocial and introverted personality styles are the same and that all need intervention and healing. To a point, it’s probably more of a problem now, that in the absence and greed for resources, the private sector, is big on grooming people for collaboration and openness in sharing ideas. Sounds nice. But, it is not only to make you a product and often wring you dry, for little in return, but to even shame you, if there’s any piece of yourself you’d like to keep. It is pervasive in that it become wholly-accepted, to the point where you family members, your neighbors, friends and coworkers join in on this Invasion of the Body Snatchers, to force you to comply. Sent introversion alone, simply triggers “We’re going to fix you,” from extroverts, as if it’s solely their option and a gift to you, that you can be rescued and put back together. In sad one arenas, it’s almost to the point where, if you’re not codependent and seeking validation from others, then you’re an outsider and something must be wrong with you. It’s a brainwashing game. As I am also a misanthropist, however, I’d like to know if that is considered a personality disorder, of it’s own. For me, it’s almost an extension of introversion. Perhaps, even the tug-o-war, between introverts and extroverts even plays a part, in the formation of misanthropy. This, outside of the fact that, if you’ve been the victim or target of narcissistic abuse (or, perhaps, any other type), then find that you’re immersed in the zombie cast of characters, of flying monkeys and enablers, there can be few redeeming qualities to be found, in the human race.
This was something I was wondering for a long time. With this new information I will sit back and watch to see the response. Thank you so much. We as a community of narcissistic survivors really do need more light shed on this subject. Something I was noticing. Thank you again.
Thank you for this very helpful presentation. One obvious point is that the overly high emotional empathy from which the avoidant is trying to protect himself or herself through periods of fearfulness, anxious preoccupation or cold dismissiveness, can give a very false impression of entitlement that precede a breakdown. The vulnerable narcissist will no doubt be highly vindictive, considering himself as a victim of his his neglected rights, whereas the avoidant will retract into a shell, considering that his inadequacy has been unmasked.
I tried taking in my cousin when they turned 18. My dad just died and I lived in an expensive area. I wanted help around the house and someone to watch my dogs while I attended to my dad's affairs. My cousin said they wanted a safe place to become independent. They were supposedly in their senior year of high school and were in the process of trying to get a job. Pretty sure that my cousin has avoidant personality disorder or maybe they were just a vulnerable narcissist. Turns out they were not about to graduate as they hadn't done any schoolwork in the last 3 years. Learned that they had learning disabilities and weren't told so I tried to help I got them into special ed, got an IEP, worked closely with counselors and had them only in a few classes and every class they were in had a TA specifically for them. They still did no school work and didn't even know if there was school work. I heard the exact same thing from all of their teachers, "they refuse to engage." They never applied to any jobs, dropped out of school, never did any chores, but was always making the house a mess. I even got them into therapy at their request and nothing changed. I tried talking things out, but any time I said anything negative they'd just completely shut down and ignore me. I was able to talk about the issues if I said it in a positive way and give recommendations. The problem was that they assumed if I talked about something calmly and rationally with them they assumed it wasn't a big deal and would actually laugh and just say, "yeah, I need to work on that." But then they'd make no changes. Didn't matter how many times we had the same conversation, nothing changed. I either had to make light of it so that they'd actually have the conversation with me, or if I didn't make light of it (doesn't even mean I'd yell, just let them know I was upset over this and needed change from them) and then they'd completely shut down and ignore me until they assumed I was no longer upset and then they'd pretend like nothing happened. It was a total catch 22 where I was never allowed to be upset them no matter what they did to me. It ended with them completely trashing my house, stealing a whole bunch of money from me, neglecting my and their animals, and me kicking them out and actively hating them.
👉Thought I was a Covert/Vulnerable N years ago until I found out about APD, which has been a revelation! Best thing for me is linking up with easy going, open, socially skilled people, even if they are very differentt in terms of age, background, education, etc... The lack of judgment and acceptance, and DEFINITELY healthy patterning, have done wonders that just talk therapy couldn't!!! 👍❤️🙏💞
Your videos have been a lifeline after a recent discard from a vulnerable narcissist. Thank you for your work. You have gifted me with so much clarity - and joined your program for further healing. Much love and all my gratitude for your practice.
YES, SO spot on Dr. Ramani!! I know a person who is a vulnerable Narcissist and clearly has all the traits!! But thank you so much for clarifying the difference between APD and VNPD!!❤️🙏🏼
This is the episode I have been truly waiting for. About a month after I found your videos and interviews I thought myself to the realization that my personality type is avoidant attachment. That is why the narcissists could have me eating out of their hand. I wanted so much to avoid rejection so I put up with the narcissism until I could hardly function. The psychologists said clinical depression. And I've spent the last 20 years trying drugs that don't work. As an avoidant attachment personality I have gotten along well as a farmer since I mostly work alone and there is rarely an audience when I try an experiment that fails. I am not empathetic. I know what empathy is and feel it some times, but mostly I try to be mindful and try to act empathetic. I do not feel entitlement. I was raised to work hard and merit what I want. I have trouble invalidating and gaslighting since these are really ways of lying. That's why I don't fare well in arguments with narcissists. Thank you for a very important video.
I'm really glad you made this video, because I'm either AvPD or almost, and I've been pretty concerned about traits I have that remind me of vulnerable narcissism.
Was afraid I had covert narcissism bc of some of the characteristics but I was confused that I knew I never felt entitled or lacked empathy. I have some relief seeing that I fall more into APD.
Late Diagnosis Autism Woman & T1D along with 2 other conditions, has made my life & the life w/ past & present relationships a struggle. Knowing I can’t change my past & work on *Right Now* has made my situation more of a radical acceptance. Thank you Dr Ramani
After yet another episode of being cut off from social contacts and people asking me to stay away from them, I've been more or less subtly hinted by someone towards the possibility of me being a vulnerable narcissist, even though it might be unintentional. While I thought that all what happened to me was just my depression, this just broke me. Not only I am having a hard time maintaining social contacts and struggling with isolation, it's the thought that I might be guilty of all of this after all, that I might be the bad guy, destroying everything without really being aware or knowing what to do, having a toxic, disruptive, unbearable, impossible to handle and bad personality. I feel like I am the villain in the story of my life and no matter how hard I try, I seem to not be able to change anything. My life is a mess and makes no sense at all. I hate everything about myself, especially the fact that people might be right about me and all my attempts of defending myself were foolish, a prime example of my own stupidity. It just hurts. What's worse, the internet is full of advice how to deal with narcissists, descriptions of how bad, evil and dangerous they are or statements how they are incorrigible and hopeless cases, the fact that nobody talks about the other side, how those people can be helped, just devastates me. I feel like I cannot be helped and society should be protected from me. I feel like there are no serious reasons why human scum like me should ever be kept alive...
Wow I just had a run in with a former narcissist I dated briefly and although he meant nothing to me, it still caused my heart to race. This doesn't pertain specifically to this video but I've watched and read you for years Dr Ramani and you were such a key part of my being able to see the forest through the trees. I know this man is highly narcissistic--surgeon and thinks he's the smartest guy in the room. He was standing in the hardware store with an open mug of coffee as if he owned the place talking about the latest thoracic surgery he was doing "Ya know, challenging stuff, the stuff I like." Wow, need I say more! Buh bye!
It seems being in long term narcissistic relationships might actually cause APD in victims. In my case, I have a deep-seated fear of failure( in general) along with the possibility of social criticism or feeling devalued. For so long, I accepted the label of "perfectionist" or "intense" by those very people who's abuse had forged me into this image. It's also this part of myself I question when I wonder if I actually escaped the Narcissistic curse that swallowed up and nearly destroyed my entire family. I always come back to empathy. I just recently had to step back from a friendship because my dysfunction was hurting her. It was actually an unfortunate clash of dysfunction between us but I cared enough to put on the breaks and take a step back. If someone else's heart and feelings are important to you, you're not a Narcissist. This has been my guide post and I hope it can be helpful for others. I would guess many of us who come out the other end, still laden and blinded by our own baggage, hear that little taunting voice in our heads, "Am I the Narcissist?" If you love, consider, and empathize with others, the answer is no. Better yet, you've actually won because that Narc wasn't able to put out your light.
I was kind of dating someone who was in an abusive marriage for years. While talking about his ex and touching on his life, he told me I was bringing him stress by talking about it. But it was only in response of what he was talking about. He sent me a farewell email and deleted me from Facebook. I feel he love bombed me the first couple months and then this drastic change. I was really falling for him so I don't know. He was also diagnosed with MS which I was supportive with. Didn't drop him like he did me :(
I’d like it if we talked about the grades of nastiness in narc. Because there’s full on Machiavellian narcs, and then there’s pedestrian narcs, but even the pedestrian narcs are very hurtful whether they intend it nor not.
I’ve thought my mum was just avoidant for most of my life but her lack of empathy, passive aggression, and self victimisation has made me realise that she’s a vulnerable narcissist…
Thanks for clarifying. I was involved with an AVOIDANT VULNERABLE NARCISSIST - WOW was he well practiced until it all started to unravel.
I used to empathize with my vulnerable narcissist a lot and really struggled with this idea between APD and vulnerable narcissism, but an idea that really helped me through and settle things is this: both of us coming from trauma, we are cut from the same cloth. The difference is I reflect and push everything inwards (shame and guilt) while she would always project outwards on to everyone else.
Ohh. I really like that distinction. I can certainly relate, as someone who’s always been making excuses for my dad when both of us had to deal with my more histrionic and explosive mom’s temper my whole childhood. He’s always been trying to make us seem like we’re the same, even though he’s bad at taking accountability for anything and I blame myself for EVERYTHING. Thank you for sharing.
And, the underlying contempt and disrespect is painful and Lasting.
Trauma is the reason but not an excuse for their evil. Not everyone becomes what traumatized them and aspire to seek vengeance in new victims, most work really hard to never make anyone feel like that ever again.
Yes that's realy clear
@@winxclubstellamusa Oh, it's certainly not an excuse, more so an explanation that I needed for myself while I was grappling with my own experience. I just couldn't get past the *why* they would react to things or situations in the way they did when we had similar experiences. This framing helped me come to terms!
I have avoidant personality and social anxiety. I’ve always been labeled as narcissistic by anyone who wasn’t a counselor or therapist. I’m not passive aggressive and I can’t stand dealing with passive aggression. It causes me to shut down and shut out the world. The entitlement of others also causes me depression. This video was so helpful for me. It perfectly describes what I’ve been struggling with. Thank You.
Avoidant Personality describes me from Junior high on. Only recently have I started to realize that I don’t have to let certain people in my life. I was constantly criticized about my looks, my weight, everything I said or did was scrutinized. I’m actually more of an extrovert. I didn’t know they were projecting their own negative feelings onto me. I now have friends who accept me.
I think we might be twins separated at birth! Until I was 25 or so, if you looked at me cross-eyed, I'd cry
@@LindaC616 Awww
Precious one, how painful! The irony is most teens (and adults) are dealing with the same issues, to feel accepted. Knowing that was a given and helped me through my teens. Staying authentic, in the moment, humble, and a sense of humor within these common issues allowed me to connect with multiple 'clicks' in HS and College. It has served me well with close friendships throughout my life. Don't ever take a valued relationship for granted, and know the difference between a real friend and an acquaintance. 💌
From my experience another key difference is that in the avoidant pd, part of the social anxiety comes from the knowledge that their disorder might cause discomfort in others in a social situation. But a vulnerable narcissist delights in causing discomfort in others, and will go out of their way to passively create discord between people, especially family members. They get positively giddy, it's really rather disturbing.
Great point Nicole!
Perfectly said.
Or they will present a face to the public of dying on the hill of keeping up a public post that is specifically devoted to cutting someone down. Which amounts to more or less the same thing.
My mother was like this. She would claim that one of us was mad at the other, or that one of us said horrible things. I was apparent that this out her at the center of attention. If I wanted to know how my sister was doing, I had to ask her because she convinced me my sib wouldn’t respond. Lost about 20 years of relationships with my family
Not all vunerable narcissist do this. Do more research.
Needed this, because I am a fearful avoidant, and I always worry "what if I am a narcissist?" But I am honestly socially phobic and scared of people...
I had social phobia years ago. I got over it doing daily Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, I went to an group for those with anxiety disorders conducted by my local hospital, and saw a therapist weekly. My therapist was the one who suggested CBT, which you can learn in "The Feeling Good Book" by Dr. David Burns. I was bullied from the age of 6 and my father also became abusive and this made me afraid of people. It was very hard to get over, but if you are determined and put in the effort, it works.
Salsa dancing classes really killed whatever shyness, social phobia I had. Sounds crazy but it's true.
@@plusone8015I believe you, sports cured mine, and came beck when I stopped
@@plusone8015 Good for you!
Ffs "fearful avoidant" is not the same thing as AVPD. Please stop getting you "info" from the internet.🤦🏻♀️
What about the Narcissist who ‘avoids’ important communication and discussions that a normal healthy, autonomous relationship would have. Avoiding communication by the following: emotional outburst, defensiveness/accusations, argumentative, interrupting and speaking over their partner, and/or rudely walking away?
Definitely, a covert/vulnerable narcissist based on your description because the person knew that the communication would lead to his role in the issue you're trying to tackle. Even if he does get into the communication process, there will always be a comeback or being argumentative to every line that points out his role ie. deflective and shifts the blame either to you, another person, or even inanimate objects like a rock or things that are beyond our control like the weather.
I think the difference is that avoiding communication for a person with avpd is just a fear of the result or anxiety, but they won’t react with rage or outbursts just to avoid something. Now they might walk away but it’s not due to rage, it’s more due to a lack of coping skills for the Avpd type.
Yes! All of these ring true. Avoiding is also a form of manipulation/controlling behavior. (A person with a ‘victim mentality’ feels justified in their negative behavior.) Avoidance allows them the opportunity to escape responsibility.
I have learned that the thing that makes someone an avoidant is a deep self and social anxiety (which is pathological avoiding) but a genuine desire to connect and can be receptive to opening up in alternative ways. A narcissist that is avoiding discussion is an abusive tactic to control the flow of information. So an avoidant will be distant and may push, but it's not outward projecting and they can still be receptive to good things, while a narc will purposefully and selectively avoid in order to keep their image.
In the case of my narcissistic abuser, she could and did make friends with anyone. She would love bomb people and become super close, but anytime I presented a disccussion point or a sore spot, she would deliberately disconnect from it, then cling very tightly to me shortly after (she refused to let go of me, avoidants are more likely to just distance and push away). Anytime there was a discussion, it was on her terms, she was not receptive to my perspective, and she would use the whole host of abusive tactics.
In short, avoidants desire connection, may distance but ultimately can work with others if presented with alternatives. Narcs will cling onto a supply, but use other tactics to get what they want out of it, one of which may be stonewalling (and other withholding communication tactics)
They avoid because any and all feedback, even the thoughts and feelings of others, is interpreted as an attack and insult on them. Eg. My father would explode and say that I’m cussing him out by asking where the scallions are from. He would then run away and lock himself in his room after slamming doors and cabinets and silent treatmenting me as I desperately tried to reason with him.
You can reason with an avoidant pd and attachment style, you can’t reason with a cluster b at all!
Narcissists usually work to a common pattern; manipulation, control and dominance, so the recipient serves their needs and interests, and fulfils an agenda. Speaking from my avoidance personality disorder, the psychological damage caused by others is long lasting and affects your psyche, which is your identity as a human being. If you don't fit in socially, you have to find ways to protect yourself. Loneliness can be the best alternative. In regards to relationships, you have to spot the tell-tale signs from the beginning. My ex girl friend uses reward and punishment to get what she wants. Whereas, my persona is if she dates me fine, if she doesn't that equally fine. She still contacts me. Over the years, I think I've had feelings and ability to love others beaten out of me. Nowadays, I do things on my terms. I don't do things just to please others anymore. It's a game of table tennis. You hit the ball and the person should return the serve. It shouldn't be one sided!
Needed to see this. I have struggled with AvPD my entire life and have always struggled to find proper care, and when times get rough fall into the trap of returning to my narcissistic parents where my dysfunctional role never changes. Heard the phrase “you can’t heal in the place that made you sick” and it finally highlighted why I wasn’t getting better.
That phrase hits me deep too. Sadly I still live with my parents and have struggled financially to root myself away from there
I know how you feel. I know it doesn’t really change anything but just wanted to let you know you’re not alone. It’s been over a year now since I last went and stayed with my parents while I was struggling. It’s been and continue to be super tough and lonely a lot of the time, but I finally realized I had to get off this ride that just kept me going in circles and hurting me so much. You deserve healing and good people in your life, and the proper support system. I’m still looking for mine myself, but I’m convinced it’s out there for me to find one day, no matter how hard it is to believe that during the difficult times. Wishing you all the best. ♥️
Wow talk about self awareness. Wish more ppl were like you. Be proud of that shit
This phrase is very reassuring for me... thank you for sharing! Reminds me I was right to keep a safe distance from my parents & not to feel so guilty when they guilt trip me.
@@gianniclaud unfortunately that's often the case... but them making you sick probably is making it hard to meet your financial goals. It's probably doing you more harm than good. Look for help outside of your parents. There could be organizations and community help near you that could at least get you to a space of your own and help you until you get on your feet, so you can actually heal & reach your own independence. It's worth at least trying! I was with a Narc husband for a decade because I couldn't financially support myself independently... but staying was what was keeping me from ever being able to reach that goal. Sometimes you have to find another way & get your own space first or you risk getting stuck forever or sustaining so much mental & emotional shrapnel that you may never fully recover or at least lose years of opportunities and fulfilling life. Well, that's my take anyway. I want to encourage you to find a safe way out of a shared space with your parents especially if they are Narcissists. The emotional exhaustion alone caused by them could keep you stuck & make everything you are trying to do in life 10x harder.
I used to feel powerless and useless but after watching ur videos gives me some kind of power..
Must say "education is power".
Nice!!
Avoidant daughter of a vulnerable narcissist. These can definitely look the same but come from a different place. I remember being bullied as a kid and tearfully telling my dad that the other kids didn't like me. He visibly relaxed and confided: "I know... I hate being with people too." This confused me because that wasn't what I had said. But that was how my dad bonded with me, through our shared avoidance. He actually encouraged it. He saw it as a sign that I, like him, felt superior to other people and that he could therefore open up and be himself with me.
In fact, I felt worthless and believed he was the only person in the world who liked me. And the fact that his "affection" could periodically and unpredictably turn to blistering rage and contempt only solidified my mistrust of people and relationships.
Omg this sounds like me! I was bullied in school too and my dad would be nice sometimes and then have explosive rage and be verbally abusive. I'm pretty sure my dad was a psychopath and my mom is a vulnerable narcissist.
The more I learn the more hopeless I get.
I’ve had almost 30 years of therapy and narcissism was never addressed. Now I’m looking for a therapist and when I say I think I’m a vulnerable narcissist they scoff and say ‘no, you can’t be or you wouldn’t have been seeking help’. A therapist literally said that and another suggested the same. I’m an introvert, I have anxiety and depression, possibly bipolar2. I’ve said for years that my default emotion is anger. In the last several years the social anxiety has gotten worse - avoidant disorder? I’m about to be 63yo and I’m feeling more hopeless and helpless than ever 😢
Sorry you're struggling. Not an therapists are the best fit nor can put aside generalizations. My brother-in-law is in therapy, huge narcissist, yet he (and apparently his therapist) don't realize his issue stem from that! He's totally clueless, so obviously the therapist isn't getting it. Maybe go to therapy for yourself but don't come through the door with a diagnostic. Talk about what you do, feel, etc. Whatever the diagnosis is not as important as what you can gain from getting tips on how to live better from your therapist. But if you do have bipolar but all means, ask a specific evaluation cause that can be medicated. Good luck
I'm 23 and this is exactly my story. I understand you.
Instead of "I see ghosts" it's all, "I SEE narcissists" 😱
Haha that’s the truist
With due respect, you might be projecting. The more we search for anything the more we found it... Many people are attacked to narcissists, as they select for people with high self-esteem, specially if they had narcissistic parents.
@@user-uc1oy3zk4t maybe it's "Baader-Meinhof phenomenon" which is "a frequency bias"
Where one
"notice something new, at least it’s new to you. It could be a word, a breed of dog, a particular style of house, or just about anything. Suddenly, you’re aware of that thing all over the place.
In reality, there’s no increase in occurrence. It’s just that you’ve started to notice it."
Humor, doesn't need to be subjected to self inquiry it just gets to exist.
I just shut up and withdrew. My thoughts are my own. Gone full circle. He played defensive and very angry - instead of seeing it as my plea for better communication and some empathy . He has criticized everything single aspect of my life, my family, my body and my contributions. I feel devalued, marginalized and unattractive - so I removed myself and moved to the spare bedroom. I love it. Did him a favor - who would want to be intimate with someone they hold in such contempt, is so unattractive and is terribly flawed?
I’m pretty sure I had avoidant pd for most of my life.
Now I just want to be alone cause I like solitude.
And I also understand that other peoples issues with me is their issues and not my responsibility.
Most scapegoats of a narcissist parent end up with fearful avoidant attachment style. They are empaths.
I've learned so much about myself and my relationships since I started watching your videos Dr. Ramini.
Thank you for all you do to help me navigate my life. ❤
Marie, I have as well.
Already liked this before watching it, because I really like the topic! As someone with AvPD it sometimes scares me to hear about vulnerable narcissism, because there seems to be some overlap.
I’ve been pondering the same thing recently! I have very avoidant patterns and doubt my autism diagnosis a lot… I see AvPD traits in myself but get so scared that my struggles with shame and socializing are covert narcissism. It really reminds me to actively focus on ruminating on my failures less, because self-absorbed is the last thing I want to be. This video is so well timed! Dr Ramani always seems to have a way with that right when I need it lol
Yes! I'm new to AvPD, so this is helpful.... because we so often ask ourselves "AITA?"
@@LindaC616 AITA? I am not familiar with this. I am a Certified Professional Dog Trainer. The first thing that comes to mind is the Akita breed.
@@briankocheraabcdt4628 It's "am I the @sshole?". You share a situation you're in and ask others if you're basically in the wrong.
@@briankocheraabcdt4628 nope! 😄 it's "am I the a$$hole?" (The doc does segments on this from time to tie)
I've come to accept that avoidants are avoidant, narcissists are dismissive and some people are really just not that into you (or me)
Please more on this!!! Please more on vulnerable Narcs!!! It's such a mentally confusing and scary trap... afraid you are wrong, afraid to hurt them, afraid it's you and you are the one hurting them, moments that mimick empathy and really look like it until something tips their hand... please please please more support for those dealing with Vulnerable Narcs!!!!!
I just got back from a solo traveller vacation. The tour I joined was with a group of solo travellers. It’s a great way to travel if you’re on your own and I’ve enjoyed several of these vacations since I lost my husband a few years ago. A big part of this type of vacation is that you’re forced to join a group of strangers and socialise. I love it. I’ve met some amazing people, some of whom have become friends.
On this particular vacation I met a lady of roughly the same age as me. We happened to be sat next to one another on the plane on the journey out, and at the first hotel our rooms happened to be next to one another. She seemed very shy and anxious and said she was relatively new to these vacations. I took pity and took her under my wing until she found her confidence. I missed an early red flag 🚩 and I’m kicking myself for it. She openly disclosed a bit too much about herself and portrayed herself as a victim of life’s circumstance, which immediately played on my empathy.
On the first evening the group met for our dinner and we all began the process of getting to know one another, with the exception of this lady. She became my shadow, following me as I mingled with the group. Every time I tried to converse with someone else she would pull me back to listening to her.
The next couple of days were challenging because she followed me everywhere. Initially I thought she was very shy and socially awkward, but then I realised she was avoiding joining the group and trying to get me to join the group. I tried to encourage her to mingle and socialise but she kept saying that she thought the group was clique and that she didn’t like anyone except me. I didn’t agree. I could see any signs of anything except a highly social and inclusive group.
After two days I had to speak to her about her clinging on to me and explained that I needed my own space to be able to integrate into the group. This is when her anger came out. The gave me one of the most cold stares I’ve ever received. I stuck to my guns and refused to sit next to her at meals or on the coach. I joined with the rest of the group and had a great time.
Towards the end of the vacation, one of the other group told me that she’d tried to get this lady to join in right at the beginning. What she said next sent chills down my spine. She said she thought the lady I’ve described above was being controlling towards me and that she felt that I was being isolated. I explained how angry this lady became towards me when I wanted my own space to enjoy my vacation the way I normally do. And this is when I was told that this lady had told the group that she and I had decided not to join the group, and that she and I would be spending the vacation together. I was horrified. She had made this decision on my behalf without any discussion with me.
I’m so glad I separated from her as soon as she turned angry. This was a complete stranger to me and yet she latched onto me so quickly it was scary. I thought she was just nervous and shy and avoidant, but she wasn’t. She was a vulnerable narcissist. Later I reflected on the discussions we had and they were all about her.
I think I dodged a bullet!
🙏 thank you! I’ve still been struggling to know if I’m a narcissist…because anxiety and social fears and not enoughness and seeking constant reassurance takes a lot of bandwidth I’d rather spend on giving to and thinking about others…so I think I’m selfish…but this definitely clarifies it for me! Also I know I’ve been victim to all the classic narcissistic manipulative tactics and not performing them…so as with someone with AvPD, who worries about self excessively, this is very reassuring! Also I keep fluctuating between AvPD and CPTSD…as proper diagnosis, but I’d imagine I have both or AvPD was caused by CPTSD but hallelujah I’m not a narcissist!!!!
Actual narcissists never wonder if they are narcissists, much less worry about it. Your first sentence says you are not one!
Thank God for small favors.
God Bless you!! You are worth all your work!🙏❤️
@@jillh2186I second that! 😊
Thank you so much Dr Ramani for answering my email. It was my question.
My Narc Ex disclosed that she has Avoidant PD after discarding me & repeated the same line to her next supply after discarding her as well after 3-4 months.
My hunch was that my Narc Ex was using AvPD to justify her appalling behaviour & avoid accountability.
Needed a sanity check to identify the difference & confirm what I’m dealing with !
I developed an avoidant pattern after my experience with the narc, its been the most difficult pattern to heal.
I have learned that the thing that makes someone an avoidant is a deep self and social anxiety (which is pathological avoiding) but a genuine desire to connect and can be receptive to opening up in alternative ways. A narcissist that is avoiding discussion is an abusive tactic to control the flow of information. So an avoidant will be distant and may push, but it's not outward projecting and they can still be receptive to good things, while a narc will purposefully and selectively avoid in order to keep their image.
In the case of my narcissistic abuser, she could and did make friends with anyone. She would love bomb people and become super close, but anytime I presented a disccussion point or a sore spot, she would deliberately disconnect from it, then cling very tightly to me shortly after (she refused to let go of me, avoidants are more likely to just distance and push away). Anytime there was a discussion, it was on her terms, she was not receptive to my perspective, and she would use the whole host of abusive tactics.
In short, avoidants desire connection, may distance but ultimately can work with others if presented with alternatives. Narcs will cling onto a supply, but use other tactics to get what they want out of it, one of which may be stonewalling (and other withholding communication tactics)
Thank you so much for the clarification Dr. Ramani. I think I was probably very APD when I was younger. I was very shy & didn't have many friends. Growing up in the chaotic & judgmental environment that I did, it's no surprise that I was very withdrawn & insecure. Yes I think that being APD made me a sitting duck for narcissistic relationships. I felt so unworthy of being loved, that the minute anyone showed any interest, encouragement or love towards me, I was hooked and would do anything to stay in their good graces. After lots of therapy & being burned a number of times, I have finally been able to find my own self-worth without needing the validation of others.
Good to hear!
Proud of you.
Social anxiety might also have something to do with the assholishness of people in general.
But that brings another question: What causes the assholishness of people in general?
Hell yea. Who feels safe when there are so many assholes around
😂true. Nice not to self blame.
This was spot on, again! At first I thought, 'oh no is Dr. R going to say that I'm the narcissist?' But Dr. R explained my attachment style perfectly. My avoidant attachment style made me a target for narcissists unfortunately. This kind of information wasn't around 30 years ago.
Same here…
This video is not about avoidant attachment style.
@@FS-qk5uq not sure you can have an avoidant personality without it
Just watched the perfectly timed “ A wasted life?” Wonderful ,this posted next! Rock on Dr Ramani! Thank you for supporting humanity to know how they might have been alone in pain, but in compassion and raising their chin up to see the sky, they are surrounded by mostly unseen beautiful tiny twinkling stars that glow with possibilities, a resilient inner-worthiness they did not know of and are love .
Beautiful and I love the description of the stars ⭐✨🌠 thank you
" A wasted life?" sounds interesting.. is this a movie ?
I absolutely needed this THANK YOU THANK YOU. I want to cry. We are in couples counseling now and the therapist claims he’s just avoidant and depressed. But there has been so much contempt and rage and apathy and neglect, I could not accept that answer. Now I know the differences. THANK YOU. I was so confused.
Now I am confirmed that I am facing lots of silent treatments in my life when I give slightest feedback or any kind of smallest criticisms.my vulnarable or covert narcissist mom always give rage and yelling or bullying or silent treatment or stonewall when I give her any feedback
I have been married for 30 years and I have had enough abuse. He's a porn addict and he is blaming me 😔
You are not alone. Married for 35 years and am now facing up to his betrayal hiding as a porn addiction and it being my fault. The pain of these last 15 months has broken me several times. Thanks to Dr Ramani tho I am beginning my healing journey.
You're awesome Dr. Ramani and orange suits you.
FINALLY! Clarity! This has been my #1 question in dealing with a person officially diagnosed with APD in my life who's remorselessly trampled everyone's boundaries and decimated my life for 25 of my 50 years, using his diagnosis as a sympathy ploy & accountability shield.
THANK YOU Dr. Ramani!
CLARIFICATION: Therefore, I believe he was misdiagnosed, in other words, and he's exploiting the APD diagnosis to cover for a more probable Covert/Vulnerable NPD diagnosis (which would explain the lack of empathy or remorse, chronic lying, gaslighting, etc, more accurately). No offense at all meant to those with either diagnosis. I simply wonder how often these are misdiagnosed for one another (especially as individuals with NPD may struggle with staying in therapy long enough to be more accurately evaluated).
I was abused by someone, that when pushed on their avoidant tendencies, will jump to self diagnosing as an avoidant, but it always sat weird with me because... they would push me away but then spam me with love and affection to cling onto me. It made no sense under the lens of avoidance personality disorder. Narcissism describes it perfectly though. She would utilize avoidant tactics (stonewalling) in order to control the flow of information and to secure her supply, but if you threatened to leave that, instead of doing the avoidant thing of letting it go, she would latch back on.
@@jeffreychandler8418 same thing
Ive never heard this anywhere else before, but I can confirm 100% true, I prone to fall for love bombing, even if im trying to avoid! that, I can fall especially hard for women with BPD, as we share some characteristics, and we are kind of broken in the same way, only the behaviour differs. I always end up coming out of this relationships even more broken, as they cant deal with my kindness, sometimes even mislabel me that im narcissistic, when im really not. I can miscall someone by accident on my mobile and turn off my phone and isolate myself for a whole week just due to that one accident, because I feel socially inadequate, which is funny because I have good communication skills, I just don't know how to use it properly and who to reach out to, and I cant really find like minded people.
Dr Ramani I can relate to the avoidant personality because everything you described is me in a nutshell. I'm also an introvert loner who always felt like the square peg in a round hole and never felt I really fitted in anywhere. This isolation has become worse and I've become very reclusive the past few years. Coming from an abusive family has made me lose trust and as a result I don't want to be around others for fear of getting treated badly again as it has happened lots where I've let someone in only to discover they're a narcissist. While I really want nothing more than close intimate relationships, friendship and romantic wise, to connect and bond with similar people, I keep people at a distance. I'm also aware I'm possibly shutting out good people! Art, music and nature is the only thing I trust as those activities bring me calm and peace without any social anxiety fears. Thanks again for this very helpful video ❤️
Your comment describes my situation as well. This is me to a T. My fear is that my loner tendencies are now so engrained that I may not be able to make meaningful connections, because my loneliness has become my safe space. Hopefully, someday, we can learn to trust again. I wish you the best, friend.
@@auggiet8380 Yes my loneliness has become my safe space too because I'm the only one I trust. Also I've become exhausted trying to fit in and meet similar minded people who reciprocate equally and don't just take constantly. I've always enjoyed my own company as feel safer alone but I do wish for deep meaningful reciprocal relationships with other good people. Best wishes to you
Janie, I relate to you on so many levels. It wasn't until four months ago that I found a compassionate and caring therapist who has helped me to understand that I was suffering from C-PTSD and that is when everything that I was struggling with became so clear (depression, anxiety, intermittent avoidance, isolation). I had a childhood riddled with trauma and NA. I had used avoidance as a way to cope when I felt any sense of danger. It may be worth looking into C-PTSD for you as well as I have found EMDR/CBT to be a huge game changer in my healing journey. In any case, I wish you all the best in your healing journey.
@@bunchhaus thanks so much for this and yes I definitely think I have undiagnosed CPTSD as I still have flashbacks and nightmares about my abusers. It puts me off going to bed as I get no real restful sleep or relief with the nightmares which makes me wake up exhausted. Sorry you also experienced abuse. I'm glad you have sought help for it and hope you improve daily. I will look into EMDR/CBT. May I ask if there's anything to get rid of the nightmares? Does those techniques you recommend help or any other helpful tips for controlling and banishing nightmares? It's a horrible experience. Thanks again for your comment
I’m so sorry you are experiencing nightmares and emotional flashbacks. They are so debilitating. One of the most helpful techniques I use is journaling. It’s my safe space where I can allow myself to write my feelings w/o judgement. I write in it anytime I have intense feelings and anxiety. At the start of my therapy, I’d write several times a day. It helps me to discover unhealed parts of myself, to see my triggers as information and not as a threat, to have compassion for those parts of me that need to feel heard. It didn’t take long after doing this to find rest and my anxiety residing. I started loving myself in other ways with music (Max Richter - Sleep), bath times, reading about EMDR therapy with candles lit. When it was time for EMDR, I felt ready and prepared to reprocess those memories that were running the show. I hope this helps you in any way to find peace and rest.
I think I had a shy, introverted personality and developed avoidant personality disorder because I knew my narc thought more of and valued his friends, family of origin, classmates and anyone else more than he valued me. I could always feel and sometimes saw my narc studying how I would react to his social circle and would always judge and criticize (especially during an argument) how I “treated his people”As a consequence, I would try to avoid being around anyone my narc thought was “better than me”. I’m fine with people I know or even complete strangers.
A woman I worked with was really strange at times, closing up and avoiding interactions. You just answered my long standing question why she was that way. She was clearly not narcissistic but was a ball of tension in relational interactions, even business interactions.
The irony is that she had no apparent reason to be like that - she was competent, attrractive and otherwise driven to succeed in a world that favored men [civil engineeiring]...
If she was attractive, competent and driven in a male dominated industry then every man and woman there was working against her success. There’s no irony in that.
@@tracydanneo She was [is] in a very supportive environment - I believe other personal factors were at play...
@@oxigenarian9763 supportive in the sense that colleagues make comments about her on CZcams to which she did not consent? I’m sure that’s the kind of support we could all live without.
@@tracydanneo Thank you for your comment - I owe that plenty of thought.
Sorry if talking abour her is some form of privacy invasion but you don't know who she is and no one ever will - that will ever remain my secret.
I originally believed that she was inconsiderate but now realize that I should have been more compassionate. I hope when others read this, they will stop to consider things when they encounter someone like her.
Real life examples help us all grow compassion and understanding, though, don't you think?
@@oxigenarian9763 it’s always possible that our experiences help us evolve. Good luck! 👍
I think I might have been a vulnerable narcissist when I was younger... I definitely felt like a victim of the world's bs, and craved the idea of watching everyone else burn. But in my early 20s, about 15 years ago, I started reading psychology books & self-help books, and I started to realize that the biggest thing standing in my way... was myself.
Someone once told me, "The truth will set you free, but at first it's gonna hurt like hell." And man, finding out that hard truth was one of the most painful moments of my life. But I'm grateful for that discovery, because it actually gave myself chance to become a better person.
I was diagnosed with AvPD about 3 years ago, and getting that diagnosis has helped me take my life in a new direction. Instead of just trying to make myself feel better, I can actually pinpoint certain things about myself that I can work on.
Thank you, Dr Ramani, for making these videos and helping to educate the world about mental health
That's just being resentful about being mistreated and hurt, perfectly normal and it doesn't make you a narcissist. You also don't just grow out of being a narcissist too.
narcissism can't be diagnosed that young - children are narcissistic to a degree - they're kids and highly emotional. Your brain, where logical parts as well as emotional parts are used in equal function, isn't fully developed until you're 25.
Got it! My ex is a vulnerable narcissist with an avoidant attachment style.
Everything makes sense now.
Thank you Dr. Ramani 🔥💛🧡🖤❤💖💟💚💜💙
Fearful avoidant = covert narcissism
Dismissive avoidant = full blow narcissist
The vulnerable narcissist / fearful avoidant is one hell of a roller coaster ride.
You’re Jude saying stuff without any proper knowledge please research before spreading false information
This is tough…I heard the message loud and clear that you were conveying and I feel like AVPD Is highly aggravated by NPD. I do recognize that I need reassurance in my relationship, however, it’s based on experiences with the NPD person. For instance; subtle insults, checking out other women, the yo-yo moods. Every conversation feels like an attack- you try to discuss what’s on your mind and then you somehow face retaliation of an event from your past and are told “well you did this and this is why I respond this way”… and SOMEHOW you end up apologizing and they walk away with their head up. The blank, empty, stare as you explain your feelings and realize they really have no idea how you feel and likely don’t care. And then, the AVPD patterns kick in. Tiptoeing conversations, replaying them several times to make sure you say just the right thing, or not having the conversation at all & just being a peacekeeper. But again, finding it so difficult to walk away from as you’ve invested so much in this relationship and you just hold onto the little bits of hope that seldom come your way. This trickles into so many areas of your life too. The awful realization is you really aren’t the insecure person you become in these relationships. I pray those going through it find their strength, their beauty, and find what brings them peace - whether you stay or go.
Thank you, so much for helping me understand, the people who brought me up were for (severe narcissism), as for the three siblings I have (which I haven't talked to in about a year or so),, their vulnerable narcissists. thank you so much for helping me put another piece of the puzzle together. Actually come to think about (it's not just my siblings) it's the entire freaking family I mean everybody uncles, cousins, (you name it) they don't want to hear anything from me which is fine by me because it wasn't me that made the decision to cut them out of my life they made that decision for me. oh look they did me a favour without even realizing it🙄🙄🙄🙄 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Sometimes the universe/God will do the stuff we can not do for ourselves!!
On me no matter how kind we tried to ve tp them...my.mo helped raise my cousin....the. Years then get brother wa ted the baby back.my sister did the sane yo me what goes around co.es around let get hubby go French kiss someone o. Gesven he acted obnoxious
U must have the very same relatives .my drunken u clw could get rid of ne any faster than to give me a laundry list of hoz fog bathing needs then took off in his caddy. I hate that family. They always looked down I'm.done
Self reflection is a beautiful thing.
@@Bob_Loblawb I LOVE IT! It's so FREEING isn't it 😁😁😁😁
The vulnerable narcissism describes my abuser so much. She had this grand martyrs complex. She never wanted me to succeed and hated if I succeeded in anything. She had this warped idea of me. However, she also had this whole “my life is harder than yours and it’s all your fault” mindset. Anything she struggled with, it was my fault. Anything I struggled with, she had it worse. It was draining. And if I called her out in anything at all, she called out her struggles and her autism and all this and if I didn’t accept the way that were hurting me btw, she’d toss me aside. She had this whole passive aggressive avoidant thing towards me. I would be at her house with all her friends, and then she’d go into a different room and lock me out. And then got mad if I went home. It was suffocating and exhausting
Really helpful. I can see how the two can overlap, thanks
I have learned a lot from watching your videos. I am diagnosed as having BPD. I prefer to say, I have BPD, rather than I am a BPD. The former says that I am living with this challenge but the latter defines me as my disease. That limited lable can act as a boundary against personal growth and recovery.
Where I am going with this is to say, narcissistic people are human too. Their masks, boundaries and rituals may make them seem impenetrable and unchanging. I believe that with the guidance of an astute psychiatrist and/or psychologist it may be possible for you to reach past these boundaries and touch the human. I am saying this as a son of a narcissistic father. His last words to me before the onset of dementia were, "With all the money I spent on you, the schools I paid for you to go to, you're still a failure."
Yes, along with my malfunctioning brain chemistry, I am recovering and rising from the ashes. My mom gave me unconditional love, the gift of singing, and the ability to push back. My mom was Irish American. It may be a generalization; Irish women are strong. She taught me how to stand my ground and push back when I had to. Somehow she never fell into the bottle as so many relatives on the Irish side of my family did, myself included (32 years clean and sober this January past).
I have had only one Psychiatrist and one Psychologist who were astute enough to help me grow. With no disrespect towards these professions, the most personal growth and recovery I have is with some astute caring people.
I credit my voice teacher, Elizabeth S., with helping me unlock boundaries to singing. When singing vocal exercises, if I was having trouble, Elizabeth would ask "What were you feeling when that just happened." Singing is not just about technique, it's about becoming self-aware of your feelings and how they can hinder, but how to generate feelings that help. I had no idea how much tension I carry in my neck and shoulders. Before the pandemic, Elizabeth got up from her piano and missed my shoulders and neck. We often spoke about unlocking and letting go of toxic muscle memory. When she picked up on my uncertainty of a specific exercise, Elizabeth reminded me that I was learning how to use muscles in ways I never used them before. It was a very good conference builder.
In AA, I am so grateful for my sponsor. He may be a high school drop out who works in a deli; he gets me. I have experienced a lot of personal growth through him.
If I can give any take away from this, surround yourself with people who are not toxic. You are not your disease. It's just one more of life's little challenges. It only seems unsurmountable. It's so much more manageable if you do it one day at a time. You are not crazy, and you are definitely not alone. Willpower has nothing to do with it. Surround yourself with people who help you grow and lift you up when you fail. There is a place for being an "I" . Find your "we". "We are stronger together."
Thank you so much. I needed to hear this 😭😭😭
Thank you always fascinating and useful details. I have diagnosed my parents as NPD and AVD.. From my experience the AVP personality traits though painfully insecure are stable. The NPD is all over the place, validation seeking one min, they are angry, then bursting out laughter a few min later, the emotional regulation is like a 12 year old. During the same breath the NPD will insinuate they areaa victim on the exhale, then expert in all areas. The goal seems like "ego rushes" or "ego hits" during a conversation I feel like they are making up ideas because the exchanges are not reciprocal. Both are exhaustingly defensive and get insulted often and easily.
As always, your succinct, plain spoken explanation is excellent!! Another great video. Thank you, Dr. Ramani.
She is really knowledgeable on the topic.
Very insightful. I was worried I have APD, but am pretty sure I am introverted. I am a writer and went into journalism because I had a narcissist sibling who I ensured couldn't be the POA. I'm doing everything I can now to heal the emotional abuse I received from my narcissist sibling as a child. These videos really help.
I'm putting all my hopes into my ex being only avoidant but then I have to remember everything she has done to me: the silent treatment, threatening to find another partner, accusing me of many things and nit-picking things from the past, getting angry, calling situations boring, and so on. She basically justifies this by saying she has the avoidant attachment style. I'm questioning myself and everything and am looking for that glimpse of hope where she is just the avoidant partner.
You make these concepts so crystal clear.👍
Dr. Ramani I love your channel! This video has been so enlightening for me. My father has vulnerable narcissism as well as an avoidant personality, and my partner has an avoidant personality style. I have since gone no-contact with my father (to great success and healing), and am actively working with my partner with what troubles our relationship. I so agree with you that the combination of the 2 is really hard to navigate and deal with. However, my partner and I are able to make progress. I have often noticed a lot of similarities between the two of them, and this video has helped me really see the big differences!
Thank you so much for connecting the dots and putting words to what I already knew/lived
I think dismissive avoidants have impaired empathy because they avoid not just processing their own emotions but also those of others they affect. I was trying to educate an avoidant friend about how my childhood contributed to my anxious attachment style and what I’ve been doing to address it. He said to “just get over it”. When I asked how he was getting over his avoidant way of relating, he threw a hissy fit. Then I’m the one having to pull it together, apologise and calm him down.
I am glad you’re pointing out the difference. I also get tired of people feeling that avoidant, antisocial and introverted personality styles are the same and that all need intervention and healing. To a point, it’s probably more of a problem now, that in the absence and greed for resources, the private sector, is big on grooming people for collaboration and openness in sharing ideas. Sounds nice. But, it is not only to make you a product and often wring you dry, for little in return, but to even shame you, if there’s any piece of yourself you’d like to keep. It is pervasive in that it become wholly-accepted, to the point where you family members, your neighbors, friends and coworkers join in on this Invasion of the Body Snatchers, to force you to comply.
Sent introversion alone, simply triggers “We’re going to fix you,” from extroverts, as if it’s solely their option and a gift to you, that you can be rescued and put back together. In sad one arenas, it’s almost to the point where, if you’re not codependent and seeking validation from others, then you’re an outsider and something must be wrong with you. It’s a brainwashing game.
As I am also a misanthropist, however, I’d like to know if that is considered a personality disorder, of it’s own. For me, it’s almost an extension of introversion. Perhaps, even the tug-o-war, between introverts and extroverts even plays a part, in the formation of misanthropy. This, outside of the fact that, if you’ve been the victim or target of narcissistic abuse (or, perhaps, any other type), then find that you’re immersed in the zombie cast of characters, of flying monkeys and enablers, there can be few redeeming qualities to be found, in the human race.
This was something I was wondering for a long time. With this new information I will sit back and watch to see the response. Thank you so much. We as a community of narcissistic survivors really do need more light shed on this subject. Something I was noticing. Thank you again.
The victimhood part is so strong. The moment they play the victim card, you know who your dealing with.
boom
Thank you for this very helpful presentation.
One obvious point is that the overly high emotional empathy from which the avoidant is trying to protect himself or herself through periods of fearfulness, anxious preoccupation or cold dismissiveness, can give a very false impression of entitlement that precede a breakdown.
The vulnerable narcissist will no doubt be highly vindictive, considering himself as a victim of his his neglected rights, whereas the avoidant will retract into a shell, considering that his inadequacy has been unmasked.
My total perceptions of life's lessons changed.. after I started watching you. Can't thank you enough Dr Ramani. God Bless 🙏🏻
I tried taking in my cousin when they turned 18. My dad just died and I lived in an expensive area. I wanted help around the house and someone to watch my dogs while I attended to my dad's affairs. My cousin said they wanted a safe place to become independent. They were supposedly in their senior year of high school and were in the process of trying to get a job. Pretty sure that my cousin has avoidant personality disorder or maybe they were just a vulnerable narcissist. Turns out they were not about to graduate as they hadn't done any schoolwork in the last 3 years. Learned that they had learning disabilities and weren't told so I tried to help I got them into special ed, got an IEP, worked closely with counselors and had them only in a few classes and every class they were in had a TA specifically for them. They still did no school work and didn't even know if there was school work. I heard the exact same thing from all of their teachers, "they refuse to engage." They never applied to any jobs, dropped out of school, never did any chores, but was always making the house a mess. I even got them into therapy at their request and nothing changed. I tried talking things out, but any time I said anything negative they'd just completely shut down and ignore me. I was able to talk about the issues if I said it in a positive way and give recommendations. The problem was that they assumed if I talked about something calmly and rationally with them they assumed it wasn't a big deal and would actually laugh and just say, "yeah, I need to work on that." But then they'd make no changes. Didn't matter how many times we had the same conversation, nothing changed. I either had to make light of it so that they'd actually have the conversation with me, or if I didn't make light of it (doesn't even mean I'd yell, just let them know I was upset over this and needed change from them) and then they'd completely shut down and ignore me until they assumed I was no longer upset and then they'd pretend like nothing happened. It was a total catch 22 where I was never allowed to be upset them no matter what they did to me. It ended with them completely trashing my house, stealing a whole bunch of money from me, neglecting my and their animals, and me kicking them out and actively hating them.
👉Thought I was a Covert/Vulnerable N years ago until I found out about APD, which has been a revelation! Best thing for me is linking up with easy going, open, socially skilled people, even if they are very differentt in terms of age, background, education, etc... The lack of judgment and acceptance, and DEFINITELY healthy patterning, have done wonders that just talk therapy couldn't!!! 👍❤️🙏💞
Thank you Dr. Ramani, you have been a great help for my disastrous relationship with a covert narcissist.
Your videos have been a lifeline after a recent discard from a vulnerable narcissist. Thank you for your work. You have gifted me with so much clarity - and joined your program for further healing. Much love and all my gratitude for your practice.
you rock girl keep on giving on
YES, SO spot on Dr. Ramani!! I know a person who is a vulnerable Narcissist and clearly has all the traits!! But thank you so much for clarifying the difference between APD and VNPD!!❤️🙏🏼
This is the episode I have been truly waiting for. About a month after I found your videos and interviews I thought myself to the realization that my personality type is avoidant attachment.
That is why the narcissists could have me eating out of their hand. I wanted so much to avoid rejection so I put up with the narcissism until I could hardly function.
The psychologists said clinical depression. And I've spent the last 20 years trying drugs that don't work.
As an avoidant attachment personality I have gotten along well as a farmer since I mostly work alone and there is rarely an audience when I try an experiment that fails.
I am not empathetic. I know what empathy is and feel it some times, but mostly I try to be mindful and try to act empathetic.
I do not feel entitlement. I was raised to work hard and merit what I want.
I have trouble invalidating and gaslighting since these are really ways of lying. That's why I don't fare well in arguments with narcissists.
Thank you for a very important video.
You are fantastic. Thank You, Dr Ramani! 💕
Thank you 💕🇺🇲
I'm really glad you made this video, because I'm either AvPD or almost, and I've been pretty concerned about traits I have that remind me of vulnerable narcissism.
What a fine border! Thank you for sharing this.
No, it's not.
Was afraid I had covert narcissism bc of some of the characteristics but I was confused that I knew I never felt entitled or lacked empathy. I have some relief seeing that I fall more into APD.
Thank you Dr. Ramani. I found your channel 2 years ago, I listen carefully every time you release a new video
Late Diagnosis Autism Woman & T1D along with 2 other conditions, has made my life & the life w/ past & present relationships a struggle. Knowing I can’t change my past & work on *Right Now* has made my situation more of a radical acceptance. Thank you Dr Ramani
this was very helpful
been trying to determine what is 'going on' with someone, fearful avoidant or vulnerable narc
they're both
Thought my wife was dismissive avoidant until the discard.
After yet another episode of being cut off from social contacts and people asking me to stay away from them, I've been more or less subtly hinted by someone towards the possibility of me being a vulnerable narcissist, even though it might be unintentional.
While I thought that all what happened to me was just my depression, this just broke me. Not only I am having a hard time maintaining social contacts and struggling with isolation, it's the thought that I might be guilty of all of this after all, that I might be the bad guy, destroying everything without really being aware or knowing what to do, having a toxic, disruptive, unbearable, impossible to handle and bad personality.
I feel like I am the villain in the story of my life and no matter how hard I try, I seem to not be able to change anything.
My life is a mess and makes no sense at all. I hate everything about myself, especially the fact that people might be right about me and all my attempts of defending myself were foolish, a prime example of my own stupidity. It just hurts.
What's worse, the internet is full of advice how to deal with narcissists, descriptions of how bad, evil and dangerous they are or statements how they are incorrigible and hopeless cases, the fact that nobody talks about the other side, how those people can be helped, just devastates me. I feel like I cannot be helped and society should be protected from me. I feel like there are no serious reasons why human scum like me should ever be kept alive...
You can't be one if you are wondering if you are, maybe you have some "fleas" of narcissism or defense mechanisms.
Wow I just had a run in with a former narcissist I dated briefly and although he meant nothing to me, it still caused my heart to race. This doesn't pertain specifically to this video but I've watched and read you for years Dr Ramani and you were such a key part of my being able to see the forest through the trees. I know this man is highly narcissistic--surgeon and thinks he's the smartest guy in the room. He was standing in the hardware store with an open mug of coffee as if he owned the place talking about the latest thoracic surgery he was doing "Ya know, challenging stuff, the stuff I like." Wow, need I say more! Buh bye!
It seems being in long term narcissistic relationships might actually cause APD in victims. In my case, I have a deep-seated fear of failure( in general) along with the possibility of social criticism or feeling devalued. For so long, I accepted the label of "perfectionist" or "intense" by those very people who's abuse had forged me into this image. It's also this part of myself I question when I wonder if I actually escaped the Narcissistic curse that swallowed up and nearly destroyed my entire family. I always come back to empathy. I just recently had to step back from a friendship because my dysfunction was hurting her. It was actually an unfortunate clash of dysfunction between us but I cared enough to put on the breaks and take a step back. If someone else's heart and feelings are important to you, you're not a Narcissist. This has been my guide post and I hope it can be helpful for others. I would guess many of us who come out the other end, still laden and blinded by our own baggage, hear that little taunting voice in our heads, "Am I the Narcissist?" If you love, consider, and empathize with others, the answer is no. Better yet, you've actually won because that Narc wasn't able to put out your light.
I was kind of dating someone who was in an abusive marriage for years. While talking about his ex and touching on his life, he told me I was bringing him stress by talking about it. But it was only in response of what he was talking about. He sent me a farewell email and deleted me from Facebook. I feel he love bombed me the first couple months and then this drastic change. I was really falling for him so I don't know. He was also diagnosed with MS which I was supportive with. Didn't drop him like he did me :(
this is a gem!
My ex is an avoidant. She discarded me. Her ex husband was a very abusive narcissist.
Thank you for this.
Thanks for the clarification!
Thank you Dr Ramani💗
Thanks for your commitment, Dr. R!
Thank you for this video! ❤
I’d like it if we talked about the grades of nastiness in narc. Because there’s full on Machiavellian narcs, and then there’s pedestrian narcs, but even the pedestrian narcs are very hurtful whether they intend it nor not.
I’ve thought my mum was just avoidant for most of my life but her lack of empathy, passive aggression, and self victimisation has made me realise that she’s a vulnerable narcissist…
Thank you so much. This is so incredibly helpful 😊
Awesome! So clear!! Thank you Dr. Ramani
thank you for clarifying this, Dr. Ramani!
Thank you Dr Ramani ❤️
Thank You. You are so consistently thorough, precise, and articulate! Amazing teacher.
We are all so lucky to have you, Dr. Ramani.
Great explanation. Thanks ! 👍🏼
Thank you so much for your videos. ❤️🔥
Thank you for a very helpful and informative video!
Thank you Dr. Ramani for clarifying the difference.
This video was incredibly helpful in distinguishing between the two! Thank you