The Problems with Ultra Cheap PC Handhelds, Pre-Orders and SteamOS
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- čas přidán 16. 05. 2024
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I recently started messing around with the Ayn Loki Zero, the absolute cheapest Windows Handheld you can get right now. It raised a LOT of questions about Pre-Orders, SteamOS, Emualtion and more...
0:00 Intro / What this video is about
4:05 Pre-Order / Buying Process
10:54 How is the Ayn Loki Zero
16:10 SteamOS/ChimeraOS on the Loki
18:07 Why SteamOS isn't on other devices?
21:02 Should you use SteamOS now? Or an Ayn Loki Zero?
23:41 SUBSCRIBE
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I fully support future rant videos about bad ordering experiences. Bob rants as good as anyone without it being his whole personality. $11 shakedown 😅
Chinese companies like retroid and ayn always have issues getting their new device to everyone's doorstep with every release so it's really refreshing to hear someone call them out instead of making a million posts on reddit.
Your support means nothing because you are a nobody.
I am DYING for a company to release a flavor of Linux/SteamOS on a handheld. The worst part about DIYing it yourself is dealing with the weird bugs with buttons or the screen or whatever, so having a vetted version by the manufacturer would be 👌
Also, Ayaneo walked back their statement again regarding HoloISO. The Next Lite is just shipping with Windows now. I think they're still offering a vetted version of HoloISO that you can download for those who want to install it themselves though.
I'm still waiting for you to start making Wii XLs for the masses, sir.
Hi Half--life man
I thought you loved installing SteamOS, I certainly love watching it.
Doing it yourself it yourself
Make more PS4 Linux videos funny man
I absolutely love this style of review. The honesty, purchasing experience and realistic look at price to performance ratio was awesome.
Ey, it’s mr. Sujano! All stuff and no fluff :P
Enjoy your content❤
It's the all fluff and no stuff guy! >:D
It's the calm orange beard gaming news guy!
It's the don't the temp fate save your state guy! :O
I had a similar experience with my preorder. I don't have Bob's patience and eventually just refunded and they tried to charge me a $22 fee for cancellation when they couldn't fill my specific order. Never again with this company.
Son Two has so much patience he should have been a doctor!#wulffdendad
Yeah, Chinese companies are frustratingly flippant and exploitative when it comes to western consumers. If any little thing goes wrong, they'll do anything to blame you and make sure they still get their buck. If you put a big American company between them and yourself though, you can turn the script on that exchange real fast.
One of the dangers with pre-orders when it was announced I’m sure it made sense.
picked up a used 64gb steam deck from GameStop for $235 + tax a few weeks back.
Pretty sure the steam deck has at least $6 more worth of performance.
Not as compact.. which is the point
@@Guitario666that doesn’t matter. And steamos is not going to work as well on devices other than the steam deck, bc drivers and software are optimized for the decks hardware, which is why valve hasn’t introduced steam os for anything else
Good nab
But why you americans add the tax separately, it's misleading
@@CrumpetsNBiscuits Because sales tax is calculated from quite a few factors, and the end determination comes down to your shipping address (county tax, state tax, etc). This is why you really only ever see tax at the final stage of checkout.
@50086gt but size does matter. Some think the SD is too big.
Also, in general the more compact an electronic is.. the more you pay for sff
This is one of my favorite videos of yours. I love hearing about general thoughts pertaining to the space and the process around these devices as opposed to just narrowly focused reviews on a single device.
the digits at 4:33 being filled with different 2023 games was a nice touch
The idea that reviewers give full disclosure on their relationship with these companies is a level of integrity I appreciate.
Beyond that. I bought the Odin1 pro black Friday past. No issues. Got it in 2 weeks. Im happy with it until I realize the play store is lacking compared to steam and Nintendo. But live and learn.
Most people who buy an Android handheld aren’t too worried about games you have to pay for.
@@scottgilbert3286 I'm new to the handheld world. The more I read and watch and the more I use what I have the better my next purchase will be.
Thanks for sharing your buying experience. This stuff is incredibly important
This is why I watch bob. Highlight the actual process he goes through and explains when he’s getting special treatment. Not many other reviewers would be this in depth on the pain.
I really appreciate the discussion about biases, it certainly makes me trust you more.
Thanks Bob! Appreciate the effort and content you supply. Keep it up buddy!
Big fan of your videos, love the topics you discuss!
This video is so good man, thanks as always
I agree that covering the receipt of a product. It makes so much difference. I run into problems often enough I wish it was addressed.
The craziest part about this situation is the fact that it was the indegogo pre-order, I waited until the Loki Zero was actually on sale by AYN from their website. $250 (+$40 for shipping) and a week later it was at my doorstep
Additionally, you don’t need a keyboard and mouse for the bios, holding L+R shoulders at the same time for about a second will get the device to vibrate, this means it’ll switch the button layout from controller to keyboard. You can use the d-pad as arrow keys and x as enter.
I use this specifically because I keep windows for indie games or steam streaming from my PC and I keep Jelos on the sd card for great emulation performance (ps2 /psp plays pretty well, some switch games are playable but things like BotW will struggle)
The Loki was never on indigogo. That was the Odin 1 & 2. The Loki was a preorder for their website only.
These videos are just as important as the good experience videos. keep these rants going.
i just have to mention this, but your sponsor bits are awesome and hilarious!
Yessss Chip's Challenge reference!
Bummer.
I'm happy to see some low-cost PC handhelds, and I think this one at least supports dual-channel RAM, so that's a small positive point relative to the Win 600.
That said, I'm pretty happy with my GPD Win Mini for PC games and an RP3+ plus for Android games, with a bit of emulation on both.
It makes absolute sense why other devices are not getting Steam OS yet. If an underpowered device that had Steam OS branding on, failed to run games that were certified to run on Steam OS, Valve would be the ones to get it in the neck. I expect Valve in the future will either have a minimum required spec (like they did with Steam Machines), or a certified hardware program to ensure when they say a game will run on Steam OS, it always will.
I suspect companies like Ayn would struggle to keep up with the quality demands Valve would require in such a scenario, but I'm happy to be proven wrong.
I immediately thought that when thinking about future budget handhelds getting steam os. It just isn't a good idea when stuff like persona 5 royal and Asphalt 9 are deck-verified. BUT it would be a perfect option to play 8 and 16-bit style Steam games and potentially get way better battery life.
My golden standard for handheld PC's will always be the steam deck oled. The amazing screen quality, the ergonomics no other handheld has, and the amazing battery life makes it worth it. When the steam deck 2 comes out the SD oled will likely get cheaper and become way more affordable. Steam Deck Oled was the best handheld from last year.
yup the thing that sold me on the Steam Deck is a lot of newer games are optimized specifically for that device. It feels more like a console experience than a PC experience.
@@comfybaguette That's what i like most about it. i never wanted to go through the hassle of settings up windows on a PC handheld.
@@ScrubsWasTaken yeah that’s def the prime advantage the steam deck has over the competitors. i’m willing to pay more for that ease of use
SD OLED cost 1k in my country
SD LCD 64gb is 549$
Shit r crazy here
@mgsan4702 treat yourself a holiday abroad and get a steam deck while you're there
The "I hate mobile orders" killed me. You're so creative.
Okay, so my thoughts.
1) Chips Challenge was hella fun back in the day. Portable one though? I'm in. About to bust out my widows Vista Laptop to play.
2) I personally don't mind when CZcams review channels such as yours get free things to review, as long as there is a a disclaimer that you did and you're unbiased when you do review it, which you usually are, and we're all thankful Bob.
3) Thank you for bringing into consideration the shipping hassle because that is also part of the process which a lot of people seem to forget.
4) So. Many. Options.
I am on linux. I kept looking for notifications because windows has trained me and your video has the sound a lot. XD
I saved up for an bought a GPD Win 4 7840, 64GB RAM, and 4TB SSD in November. It was painstaking to get the device from payment online to my doorstep. I love it and I get to play World of Warcraft on my couch and laying in Bed, and when I need to do high stakes group content, I dock it into my setup.
I used Droix, which have great sales year round, and okay customer service, but it is still daunting to drop that much money on something. I want a magnifier for the screen like they had for the gameboy, and maybe better grips, but man it is a marvel to play WoW on high settings at 60 fps in group content in my hands. The kid in me is shook every time I boot it up.
Dängit Bob, I've had computer issues for a week, and those "bleeps" drove me paranoid!
Thank You for your service.
That coffee affiliate marketing ad! funny as hell! love this man! 🤣
Oh hell yeah Chips Challenge, I remember playing that on our Compaq all in one when Windows 3.1 was still recent...
still trying to understand the message of so many videos starting with him sitting
He’s sittin down cuz it’s serious biznezz ٩( ᐛ )و
Still? Lol
Isn’t it obvious?
@@marcamusprime9513 I mean.. it's obvious to me. 😉
It's cool it's like we have an appointment with him
Thats just bob getting ready to spill the tea ☕️ 🫖 😂
Love the review and sharing your pain in the whole process.. though I spent about 3 seconds each time, looking for which devices I've plugged or unplugged...
Great Stuff, as always.
I really love your ads always entertaining S+++
Bob, you’re the most honest reviewer on CZcams.
Good video to start my morning
For Me It's Night Time
7 pm gang
12:00 That game was my jam. It gets so difficult towards the end for no reason.
Look forward to seeing your vid on the Aya next next lite
That was a terrible buying experience. Almost makes me appreciate my Analogue Pocket buying experience. Almost. I have a Steam Deck, an Analogue Pocket and a Switch OLED. Those devices have been amazing and each device compliments the other. If I am able to get some disposable income in this crazy economy, I would love to pick up an Ayn Loki Zero for my Neo Geo games and Indie games in my Amazon Prime Games account. This would be an easy way to actually be able to play those games on the go and they should be able to play perfectly on this device and it would be a great way to stream my Xbox Games and for Xbox Game Pass streaming. Thanks for the video. BTW it looks like the 8GB RAM Loki Zero with 128 GB storage is $248.00 as of 1/28/24.
Thanks for the transparency here, it definitely is helpful
Yay more Bob the Barista mini series!😊
I liked this video format. Usually don't take your stuff that serious tbh, but this was a good and different video.
Thanks for the several Windows notification sound jumpscares 😂
Omg chip’s challenge! You just resurfaced a nostalgic memory for me
the windows sound effects as the censoring is hilarious and so topical
I really appreciate that you did cover your actual purchase experience. That sounds super frustrating. I do wonder if a regular consumer wouldn't have the same issues, because they wouldn't forget so easily vs someone who covers tons of handhelds, but I can't fault you for that. They really should have done better to reach out to you about the issues.
On the "Where is SteamOS" side of things, I do believe that Valve will release an ISO for it. Eventually. They operate on Valve Time, and honestly, I am a little glad they do. Watching them hold the sale of the Steam Deck Dock because the software wasn't ready, even though they had the hardware in their warehouses ready to ship, tells me that they have learned from past experiences and want it to be a good experience for everyone who uses it. Yes, there is also the licensing issue, but I would guess that a bigger issue is nVidia driver support. And I don't think we will see other handhelds, even AMD handhelds get SteamOS support from Valve until they can sort things out with nVidia and basically having a generic installer for all systems so that it is a good experience.
I remember when SteamOS 1.0 released, and you had to have a very specific setup for it to work, and it sucked. They did eventually make it better, but not by much. So I would guess they will wait until they have improved the experience, because that is what is going to keep people on or going back to SteamOS, the experience. If it is a poor experience, people will just install Windows. From what I understand, most people like SteamOS on the Deck and keep it. Some do go into installing Windows on it, but most seem content. I know plenty who stream from a Windows PC to it for games they can't run, but others will play what they can on it and leave it at that.
The secret sauce of steam deck is the pre-caching shaders, I'm interested to know if Holo OS version does this. If not then windows with big picture mode is the way to go
You get this on any Linux PC. Steam preloads Vulkan shaders on Linux, actually on Windows too, but since pretty much every game uses Vulkan on Linux it benefits more.
Windows will always be bloated and Windows 11 is basically spyware eating up resources to collect info for Microsoft
@stevenpledger6163 Every game on Linux has to use Vulkan because DirectX isn't supported on Linux (or is it DirectX doesn't support Linux? Hmm not sure regardless it doesn't work on Linux :P) All games ran on Linux are either native Vulkan or are translated to Vulkan from DirectX.
It's a feature of the Steam client, so it's not exclusive to the Deck.
@@FantomMisfit I'm pretty sure OpenGL games also work on Linux
I just wanted to say that I have always had issues with AYN, and I am glad you brought this up. I bought the first AYN Odin Pro and the lite and the delays and cancellations were ridiculous and I simply cancelled and purchased my devices from resellers on eBay for a higher price and yes, I did so willingly, but I would rather deal with someone responsive and with B.S. but it will still be better than the B.S. AYN gave out. To this day I simply bought a Loki Zero from eBay for 200 flat and the seller was a wonderful person, no hassle. I wanted to get my hands on a Loki Max or Mini Pro but I'll wait till I see a deal on eBay or something. Shameful.
Consider retention, lack of towards the middle, love the long time. Missing you for all of January. Nontendo did now show up…
I'd be interested to see your attempts to learn about steamos distros and a bit more testing of how they perform on those low end devices.
I know there are other creators with a bit more of a technical focus doing that already. I hope this doesn't sound snarky but I think you'd be a good representation of what the process is like for a normal person. It's useful perspective when recommending something like that to a friend
Honestly buying experience highly depends on what region you are in. I saw many videos where people from Canada and USA complained that it takes months to get things from Ali and in Russia, in my experience, it usually takes about 2-3 weeks. Plus it depends on where are you buying, what shiping are you choosing and etc. It is a thing that is worth mentioning, but imo it is not worth to dedicate too much time to it because this experience will differ so much from person to person.
I swear, the beginning of this video just makes me feel second hand "Buyer's Remorse" lol.
Yeah I really appreciate getting into the buying experience. Especially as time goes on, it's something we take for granted and shining light on customer service is a big deal for me now
Even at $224 I couldn't justify this device. I would rather pay that for the original Odin and have more games run better at the end of the day. Sure I can't play old windows games but I would rather emulate better than have more compatibility at that point. Odin 2 Pro plays everything like a dream for $300. At least everything that runs on Android.
Agreed. Odin 2 Pro is $370, Odin 2 is $300.
@@whoever_81 you’re right I was thinking of the base model.
I’m running so many switch games at 60 on the Odin 2 max. Once the emulator gets good, the device will be perfect
It can also emulate old pc games
Odin 2 can't play old PC titles?
I got the Loki Max, I like it so far.
8 seconds in and watching you lower your chair already had me hitting the like button. You are too good of a content creator the world doesnt deserve you but I am sure glad you exist
I'm still interested in the Loki Zero mainly because of my love for indies (and that price tag), but the way they handled the announcement and release of the Lokis was ridiculous. It just makes me glad that I don't pre-order anything, at all.
Been loving my retroid pocket 4 not only because I have been able to play pretty much every game up to ps2 but game streaming on a lil pocketable device is sweet
Got my watermelon 4p in yesterday. Been playing bomb rush Cyberfunk on it through yuzu, loll
I think it's fine for reviewers to get things for free to review as long as the reviewer is upfront about it. As long as you give your honest thoughts and opinions you're a good reviewer in my book. Like how you did this video.
Damn, was hoping you had the Loki Max there! I think you would have gotten more out of it. You can press R1+L1 together for a few seconds to change between gamepad/keyboard+mouse mode usually.
This is the issue the amount off different specs for ppl new to emulation puts them off i bet they need to streamline the buying process imo, great video Bob.
I bought myself a Loki Zero (8Gb Ram Version) and i set the Bios to have 1GB V-Ram. It is somewhat capable to run Skyrim with around 30 FPS (32 Bit Version, i prefer it because of the Steam Workshop). And more demanding Titles i stream from my bigger PC via Steam. But my most Use is as a small PC on my TV for CZcams or if i'm playing Switch to quickly google something up. Yes i could use an Android TV Box or just my Smartphone but i was courious because i love the handheld formfactor. And something like a xbox or PS was/is a No-Go because i just don't want to have huge things standing around. So jeah, i like my Loki Zero, even if it has not experienced a lot of gaming. And i think this is a usecase where this device (even though there are other and cheaper solutions for my usecase) has a useful case in this world.
You do a great Ray Romano
I got a steamdeck because I could actually.......normally get it, without having to go through all this uncertainty.
This is a great video GOD bless brother 😊
Do you know how you made the 3d print for the arcade fight pad and Lenovo legion go, can you make one with the switch and the haute42 g series g16 please
thanks for pointing out the problems you had with the buying process. Even if it's rare, it *does* happen, and it'simportant to hold companies to account when they screw around..
The prices they're asking for it isn't bad at all for a slightly beefier RG3511 replacement. Slap SteamOS on it and go.
But if you order it and it vanishes into the aether......
I love my Odin Lite. It is my most used device by far, only behind my phone. I stream my pc and consoles to it. I emulate on it. It feels like a quality product made by a reputable company. But when my wife ordered it for me as a gift, she did tell me that the website/order process gave her scam concerns. She said she almost didn’t get because she felt something was off and site/order process felt shady. But I actually use more than my steam deck due to weighing much less and being smaller to transport.
What I take from this video, and my own experiences, is that technical infrastructure can bury issues far from the people who care to make it right. It's part of consumerism, it will happen to everyone eventually. All you can do is keep pushing help, reaching out to different sources.
The windows sound effects hit so well
It literally made me pick up the laptop under my bed to check if I hadn't switched it off properly. 😂
Thanks for changing video ratio to 2:1
You are always so entertaining. You are a Bawler. .
I love the Sony NEX on the desk
I got the legion go with nobaraos "steamdeck" version, and a few drivers, and it works just like a steamdeck for the most part.
Love the OS / UI / DE sounds for censoring. Though the Windows one gave me a jumpscare and bad flashbacks.
Just want to highlight the value of reviewers like you, I get so sick of reviewers positively reviewing something and paying no attention to the company's support or treatment of customers itself, need reviews like yours to balance it out, honest and no bs.
The fact that they can produce a fully fledged gaming handheld for that price is astounding to me.
The Zero now comes with 8 gb ram instead of 4. So that will help.
I still don't want one but there you go.
Also looking at the processor and graphics ratings on those, the top of the line Loki is like 2.5x as fast for graphics as the middle one for $100 more, so that upgrade step is HUGE.
I should go back to techpower up and make sure I didn't make a mistake, because that's HUGE for such closely related processors.
Welcome to the Loki purchase I had to email them 100 times! No joke
Picked up a Loki Max (I think?) when they were on sale for black friday for about $300 as a gift. It outpaces my steamdeck and keeps up with my Ally better than I would have expected, but its a finicky device. I probably won't buy anything else from AYN again, but for $300 it's pretty nice.
Whether or not you feel like being given review units influences is irrelevant: you can't "control" for bias in your review process if the product was provided or you didn't order it 'anonymously'. So you can still have a good video review and piece of content, but it's absolutely subjective and no objectivity can be claimed because you can no longer control for bias. That means nothing to most people, but I don't think anyone is surprised that yours is not a clinical or laboratory review operation - doesn't seem to be the vibe you're going for. =) That said, I really enjoy this video and take it as one data point in a much, much larger ecosystem of handhelds and their reviewers. Thank you and have a good one.
I wonder how the RP4P would fit into this line-up from your perspective..
Chip’s Challenge was elite
13:23 That Vega 3 Time Spy GPU score is really similar to what my laptop's GT 730M got, but the i7-4800MQ my laptop has got a bit over twice the CPU score of the Athlon 3050e
Total score: 330
GT 730M graphics score: 286
i7-4800MQ CPU score: 2770
Hey wulff den could you please do a video on the best budget and high ter device for mobile gaming like cod and things?
4:41 And there is where the bias from free review models creeps in, or perhaps more accurately creeps out. Now it may be much less for someone in a professional setting where they are dealing with large volumes of these devices and most, if not all, are not being used personally but there is a definite difference in literal and figurative "investment" in something you didn't pay for whether it be for pleasure or for review you the "need" to receive a return on investment investment is different. It's something Steve from Gamers Nexus has talked about quite a bit.
My question is... Does the universal FSR/RSR work on this handheld in Steam OS variants? Like that SHOULD make games run better on it vs the windows version while still looking decent.
"SHOULD"
Is there a coffee maker you recommend?
8:27 this is the best statement ever said from a reviewer
I'm interested in how this compared to retroid pocket 4.
In terms of bias. It's something that exists in us all. We do our best to minimize it, which I feel like you do well. If I could make a suggestion. Since you don't like to play the "do you know who I am card," maybe have Hana order your system to review instead. Or even, if budget allows, you both order it and compare results.
RP4P is Android, this is Windows. Completely different market device. If you're looking for Xbox emulaton the only option right now is PC. The RP4P is great for PS2/CG/some Wii/some switch. Everything below runs great
omg why did I decide to go through my emails while watching this in the background. Constantly checked my inbox thinking I received emails
I say that the lossless scaling tool would somewhat shine with this device.
I like having devices built for specific use cases, so I play my Steam games on my Steam Deck. What I want now is a device specific for my Epic games library and an Xbox game launcher. I don't want a device I have to modify or install programs for "workarounds" especially when what usually happens is after the next update, you have to uninstall and reinstall everything you just had working perfectly
Another reason why the big dogs (asus, lenovo, steam) have a huge one up with selling either direct from the US or just from Best Buy AND having stock in store!
6:32 A windows notification sound I though it was my own windows..
Yeeeeah I'm good with my Steam Deck 😅 only other PC handheld I'd consider would be either the ROG Ally or Legion Go
"Here's another tangent to make this video longer than it needs to be" that right there is art dammit
Considering the steam deck goes from $200-$300 on the used market I don't get why people would get this one
Yeah I had similar issues with my Odin Lite order since a bunch of those skus kept getting cancelled as well. Doing the extra payment was weird because they'd just send a link to the website with a custom dollar amount purchase and you'd have to add it to your cart, buy it, then send them the confirmation number.
Thank you for suffering though this experience for us. I've considered backing multiple handhelds over the course of the last couple years but never pulled the trigger because in the end I just didn't trust the companies. I ended up waiting for my 2021 preorder for the OG steam deck and had zero regrets. I then bought the OLED deck fall 2022 and love it. Now I feel comfortable with my current handhelds until there's a significant processor generational leap. But i love watching videos of new ones that come out to keep up with the tech.