An Exhaustive History of Ralph Bakshi's Lord of the Rings
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- čas přidán 19. 08. 2021
- While the video talks mostly about The Lord of the Rings (1978) there is a discussion of Bakshi's earlier R-rated and NC-17 films, which deal with heavy subject matter like racism, police violence, transphobia, drug abuse, and various adult scenarios.
This was intended to be a quick little video that I could churn out in a couple weeks at the end of June, but it's now taken almost the whole summer. I haven't done animation like this in years, and never with this kind of a coherent goal, so approximately 48 seconds of this video consumed 80% of the entire post production time.
Written and performed by Dan Olson
Background artist: Agata Pankowska
/ agataportfolio
Crowdfunding: / foldablehuman
Twitter: / foldablehuman - Zábava
![[Vowel]물고기는 물에서 살아야 해🐟🤣Fish have to live in the water #funny](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/3G9MH063Cx4/mqdefault.jpg)
It is very funny that I've received multiple "Pater Jackass" comments from people insisting that they're above petty fandom sniping.
I saw one guy comment it literally three times, and once below my completely unrelated comment. Guess that'd make me a Dan Assson fan 😔
I barely have the energy to like things, I don't know where people get the energy to despise things.
There’s always something tremendously lame about people coming up with cutesy little wordplay names for things they don’t like. That being said, I keep translating this in my head to “Father Jackass”, like a whimsical figure from folklore.
Can't mess with this fandom, they're Bakshit crazy amirite
How dare they talk that way about Hat Dan!
My mom is a huge LoTR fan, and was a big member of OneRingNet and the official fan club during the heyday of the movies. She was a very very active member of the forums and discussion groups. I just called and asked her "do Balrogs have wings" and her eyes literally glazed over. She said in a very defeated tone: "Balrogs can have wings if you want them to."
Balrogs can have a little wing. As a treat.
hahahaha what a legend 😂
what must it be like to witness a decades-long online fandom debate
I collectively got from that contrast of quotes that they have a dramatic presence, enveloping the area around them with intimidating shadows. They had wings in the sense of Dracula having a cape, they felt imposing, like there was no way to slip around them, no holes in their reach. Literal wings could as much be the delusions of their prey feeling cornered and trapped, as it can be an artistic shorthand for 'dude, its a goddanm BALROG'.
@@XatxiFly when i was talking to my mom about it, she mentioned that Tolkien did this all the time. He would introduce something with a metaphor, and then later refer to it as a physical property. Apparently this isnt the only thing that caused intense fandom drama due to Tolkiens inconsistent use of metaphorical and physical descriptions. I think I'm team chicken. Giant, useless wings.
I floated the idea of breaking out an Ouija board and asking the man himself what he meant and then my mom got mad at me
Is she in the credits of the movies then? That must be kinda cool :D
@@baguettegott3409 Yeah, she's in the credits in Return of the King. Actually, to say shes a megafan would be an understatement bc she wrote the articles for the geology and geography of middle earth in the official lotr encyclopedia. Shes... Kind of a name in the community hahaha. Shes got a bookcase dedicated to tolkien/lotr. We took a vacation in New Zealand to visit a bunch of filming locations and Hobbiton. My childhood was very LoTR themed hahaha. Shes great and I love her.
"Why does the rotoscoping look so bad?"
"Because it was real"
Love how layered this joke is
Rotoscoping gets a bad rap because of the film overexposure method used in the Bakshi movies, but that's neither really rotoscoping (as described here), nor is that the only time it was used. Pretty much every animation uses it to some extent - it was used all the way back with Snow White and the like, and in The Jungle Book, even the clip of Baloo and Mowgli dancing he praised as good animation was rotoscoped.
Like most techniques, it's just a tool, and how good it is depends on how you use it. When done well, you won't even notice. When done poorly, you blame it for the movie being bad, when in reality the movie is bad for many, many other structural reasons. The same goes for newer techniques like CGI - people love shitting on bad CGI in bad movies, but the bad CGI in great movies gets a pass, because it's never actually the CGI people are mad about.
Take my like and leave.
lol
The green nazguls are badass and nobody can tell me otherwise. Bashki rotoscoping is wildly unappreciated
Man, that line, "There's no hope!" "Then we must do without hope!" is freaking metal.
If I may,
I would say it is emo until you add "There is always vengeance!"
@@hhiippiittyy "Real Emo" only consists of the dc Emotional Hardcore scene and the late 90's Screamo scene. What is known by "Midwest Emo" is nothing but Alternative Rock with questionable real emo influence. When people try to argue that bands like My Chemical Romance are not real emo, while saying that Sunny Day Real Estate is, I can't help not to cringe because they are just as fake emo as My Chemical Romance (plus the pretentiousness). Real emo sounds ENERGETIC, POWERFUL and somewhat HATEFUL. Fake emo is weak, self pity and a failed attempt to direct energy and emotion into music. Some examples of REAL EMO are Pg 99, Rites of Spring, Cap n Jazz (the only real emo band from the midwest scene) and Loma Prieta. Some examples of FAKE EMO are American Football, My Chemical Romance and Mineral EMO BELONGS TO HARDCORE NOT TO INDIE, POP PUNK, ALT ROCK OR ANY OTHER MAINSTREAM GENRE
@@danhendricks68
Right on. I don't know enough about the foundation of emo to discern the real from the fake, so my comment was invoking the popular emo cliche. Thanks for the cultural enlightenment. :)
@@hhiippiittyy counter culture and it’s history is flippin wack yo
@@AnimatedTerror more so than Star Wars fans?
'And anyway if Balrog have wings why couldn't they just FLY the ring into Mordor??'
That joke alone could have made the whole video. Well done.
It's been a running gag with my friends for ages even before this video came out, and the reason I love it is it's like. aside from being absurd, it's kind of getting at the core of why the "eagles" criticism is silly.
a) the beings would likely not consent to do this deed
b) it would obviously backfire even if they did
c) the mere perception that it would even be plausible is perhaps entirely a product of movie choices obscuring otherwise obvious flaws with the plan
d) OH MY GOD WHO CARES NERDS
@koboldcatgirl i think the Hobbit (book) already covered this when the eagles refused to fly the dwarven + bilbo party to their owj destination. They can fly and are good at normal battles, but vs a dragon or god damn Sauron they were just going to make themselves and each party big flying targets.
In a video I very much enjoyed, this stood out as my favorite part.
@@StonedHunter yep!
@@StonedHunter And their primary means of attack involves their feet, which would be busy carrying someone. Even if they could fight off things with just their beaks, the rapid clashes and direction changes could kill whomever they carry or cause them to be dropped to their deaths.
Here's one of my favorite quotes about LotRs
“There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." ― John Rogers
lol...fair enough.
True.
Upon Googling "Atlas Shrugged", the most asked question is "What is the point of Atlas Shrugged?". Wow, one of those kinds of books. I would have absolutely hated to do a report on it in High School, and it would have affected my development as an adolescent. On another note, finding a copy of Isaac Asimov's Caves of Steel in my parent's basement changed my life forever.
@@shippo72 Oh yeah, it a book of crazy people, by crazy people, for crazy people.
I mean the good guys are the 1% wealthiest people on the planet, all coming together to start a new religion worshiping money, then waging war on America, and are finally crowned themselves kings of the U.S.A. and making their money cult the state religion, killing thousands in the process.
@@shippo72 I imagine the inclusion of lots of frank sexual discussion and sex scenes should keep “Atlas Shrugged” from showing up even in High School curricula. But yes, it is a meandering mess with little if any plot, functioning perhaps more like Thomas Moore’s “Utopia” in presenting what she thinks “ought” to be (as from the “is/ought” dilemma), and often also strawmaning the political ideologies that she disagrees with, so that her heroes can strike them low… but like much of the action in Bakshi’s Lord of the Rings, is very clearly fake. (OMG, I’m dropping all sorts of artistic referenes, like I’m some sort of sophisticated snob…)
"If Balrog have wings, why couldn't they just fly the ring into Mordor?" is my new favorite quote from you.
I had to pause the video because I was laughing too hard to hear the next sentence.
I'm not getting something obvious. The Balrog never had the ring; its the good guys trying to get it to Mordor right? Or is this supposed to be absurdist.
@@LL-fw7hi It's a play on "Why didn't the eagles just fly the ring into Mordor?"
@@LL-fw7hi A common question for the Lord of the Rings is "why didn't the eagles just take the Fellowship/fly the ring to Mordor?", which the series itself never answers, requiring a greater exploration/discussion of the lore to understand (and even then, the answer is only partially stated/reasonable, having to do with the relative power level of the eagles and their abilities meaning that one falling to the temptation of the ring would be tantamount to Gandalf or Galadriel succumbing) . As such, the question is an oft-repeated reference and joke in the fantasy community, typically highlighting what seem like obvious plot holes requiring complicated lore to justify or excuse/readers or players missing obvious worldbuilding that explains why the suggestion wouldn't work/overthinking narratives in general. (Since the obvious answer to the question is "because that would be a boring story")
So yes, Dan is highlighting the complexity/absurdity of the "Balrog wing" question/argument by conflating it with the more widely known "eagle-ring" question.
One does not simply fly into Mordor!
There is literally a smoke shop in my town called “Wizards” with the poster for the film in its window, and yeah it’s literally just owned by an old stoner whose young mind was blown by wizards, and it’s just a whole thing.
I mean even in the book the pipe weed is obviously weed we all know Gandalf, Merry and Pippin are stoners
@@caradanellemcclintock8178 I'm convinced this is the primary reason Gandalf seems to literally never remember any of his spells until he's forced to 'dry out' in a cage or on top of a tower for a few days :P
@@xiggywiggs gandalf gotta take a T-Break to wizard right and if that ain't the most gandalf shit ever idk what is.
Wizards is one of thouse movies that is ment to be watched while high.
God bless and keep that old stoner guy and his 1978 nerd movie poster specifically
It's a uniquely Canadian accent that doesn't pronounce the L in "Gandalf", but does pronounce the L in "both"
???
@@bobsbigboy_ bolth
@@bobsbigboy_ bolth
hilariously true
Not unique to Canada. I'm from NY and I say gandawf and bolth. I also realize many of us here say "nexjeer" and "lassjeer" (next year and last year).
Oh man, Bakshi. I have a lot of respect for the guy, he helped women and minorities get jobs as animators at a time when Disney and most other companies would only have them doing other, 'lesser' work, if that. I got some stories of him and he was really progressive for the time, but he couldn't direct a good commercial product to save his life. Way more of an artist than a businessman, which sucks because animation can be such an expensive business.
The man was a true animation rebel
I wonder sometimes what the industry of animated films would look like if Bakshi had found commercial success in film. (Not saying that would be a good or worse alternative than now I just wonder.. lol)
That's the breaks. Talent and skill have nothing to do with success.
You know, this is kind of wild to me, because the budget for Bakshi's LOTR adaptation was $4 million, and it pulled in at least $32.5 in the box office alone. The reception was mainly poor because it was incomplete, but if a sequel was announced, perhaps reception would have been better.
Fuck businessmen. All my homies hate businessmen.
I feel sorry for Bakshi's struggles while working on Spider-Man, but "My coke dealer left me" has got to be the most sad/hilarious sentence in the history of the English language.
The new, 'for sale: baby shoes, never worn'
Back in the day, animation was no joke. You'd probably need uppers if you didn't have a crew the size of Disney, and even Disney likely whipped their animators like galley slaves.
@@nathanielpitts8667 Still funny though
@@nathanielpitts8667 tbf to this day animation is still no joke. though i suspect a lot of it is due to corporates habit of overworking yet underpaying their employees, sometimes to literal death.
"I've lost more girls to Spider-Man than I can count".
fun fact: in the japanese translation of lord of the rings, the balrog is called micheal bison due to copyright laws
Another Fun fact: The character J. Guile from the Street Fighter series is called Centerfold in the international version of the games he appears in, so they can avoid copyright.
Like in Streetfighter? Wierd.
@@MegaManXPoweredUp That's funny that they had to the same thing for JBA's J Giel and make his localized name Centerfold
@@RetroIsaac Tha...that's the joke. It's not actually a true fact, it's a joke about the Street Fighter thing.
@@timothymclean oh 😔
This take on Bakshi's work is refreshingly nuanced - neither worshiping him nor demonizing him.
If I have to hear one more person say "demonize" ("demonizing", etc.) think I'll scream. The overuse/misuse of this word is driving me crazy.
@@GreenAshR47 what would be a better alternative for demonize?
@@Lumber_jocks Degrading, maybe.
Practically every take on Bakshi you'll see is "nuanced". It's very rare to find anyone who outright hates or loves him absolutely.
I really enjoyed this video, and I do appreciate Bakshi's contributions to animation. However, it stings that the only comment on Bakshi's long history of enabling and committing sexual harassment was just that he was "a pervert." Maybe Dan isn't aware, but ask any older folks in animation who worked during that time - especially women. I know several women who left animation from all the physical and verbal harassment they experienced while working on Bakshi's productions. Some were told "that's just the way things are" while getting a slap on the ass. Some were denied opportunities explicitly because they weren't "pretty enough".
Sexism in animation could be found at any studio at this time, of course, but the sheer amount of physical harassment on these productions is disgusting. You had to chose between a career in animation, or abuse. We can still feel the effects of this 50 years later; it's only very recently that we're starting to see a shift in gender demographics and ousting of some of the nasty men who abuse their power (albeit women still tend to be underpaid).
"The film was perverted, juvenile, rambling, gratuitously violent, unfocused, aggressively political, and a huge success" has got to be one of the most amusing descriptions I've ever heard.
America the film
It was probably successful because of those things, not despite those things.
Coincidentally, it is also word for word my tinder bio
There is nothing wrong with Bakshi's films (outside of maybe not aging that well in modern times). Sometimes you need to be all those things, to open people's eyes to the crimes around them. And yes, it was funny to hear :P.
We only have to look to people like Vivziepop (Helluvaboss, HazbinHotel) to see that it still works to this day. (Hazbin's hotel original trailer has some great Bakshi like moments in it :) ).
It's certainly a popular version of masculinity in media.
Hey, it's long running character, Hat Dan! The Dan with a Hat!
HAT DAN IS YOUR ALPHA
@@rhaeven goddamn it
Dammit. Should have known 40 minutes after release was already way late to make this joke.
🔫🔫🔫🔫🔫🔫🔫🔫
Queue excessive finger guns
Hi Dan,
I don't know if you'll see this, but I felt the urge to send this out into the void anyway.
When this video came out, I was pregnant with my son and experiencing the most horrific back pain I'd ever felt in my life. In the wee hours when the pain kept me up I watched this video a dozen times. I don't know why, but it was extremely soothing to me. Maybe it was hearing a Canadian accent so far from home, or reminiscing about my high school days coming up with silly Thranduil headcanons with my friends, or the hazy memories of the incomprehensible Bakshi LotR VHS at my aunt's place that I always shunned in favor of The Hobbit or Land Before Time.
When that back pain turned out to be a rare pregnancy complication and I had to deliver my son six weeks early, I watched this video every night I was in the hospital to fall asleep. Two years later I still do, when I'm desperately trying to sneak in a snooze while my son naps.
So thank you, for being such an oddly comforting voice during the most difficult time of my life.
Dan may never read this but I did thank you for sharing. I did cry a bit. This is a lovely story I'm glad you and your son are both in a good place now!
Hope you're both doing okay.
I think you should try to send this to him through a more traditional social media because he seems like the kind of guy who would really appreciate this
to good health for you and your child
😭😭❤️😭😭
The first and only time I ever saw this movie was when I was 14 years old. I had a high fever, and was incapacitated on the couch while my older brother (a huge nerd) watched the movie. That was one of the most disorienting and frankly hellish movie watching experiences I have ever had.
I have a very similar situation for when I first saw this and to this day I've not rewatched it in full so the scattered memories I do have are absolutely wild and trippy.
This is similar to how I first saw Wizards, it was in the SciFi channel late at night and for years I thought I'd imagined a gnome fighting Nazis.
Ralph Bakshi is certainly, at least, the bigger pioneer and innovator. For example, creators and fans of things like Heavy Metal, Ren and Stimpy, South Park, and Futurama all owe Bakshi a debt. Now, do tell us, WHAT exactly has Jackson pioneered and influenced? .. . zilch!
I had a feverishly similar experience with Donnie Darko. Oh boy, I didn't like it
@jontarr7444 ahhh man that sucks. Donnie Darko is one of my all time favorite Sci-Fi movies. If you ever decide to revisit it, check out the Director's Cut as it's a little easier to follow.
Finally someone brought up how the majority of modern blockbusters are mostly animated despite not being treated as "animations" and how there's a weird arbitrary line between what counts and doesnt count as an animated film
People insist on calling The Lion King remake from a few years ago "live action" despite the fact that... you know... the characters are all CGI.
@@rickyl3819 Well yes there's that case but also for example whenever people claim that Avengers is a live action movie despite like 80% of the movie being computer animation. If you know that meme about someone posting a green screen and saying "look how beautiful the MCU photography is" you'll know what I mean
Bakshi's films walked so that Jorge's Episode 1 could ...step in shit.
*_"IT BROKE NEW GROUND!"_* ↼‸↼
The way I see it, is an animated film is a film in which the animation is the centrepiece. Youre supposed to know its animated and the visual style and storytelling are rooted in it looking overtly stylised. Live action with cgi elements is a film that is rooted in realism. You arent supposed to see the seams of where the animation begins and the live action ends. If a character looks fantastical, or even if the set is 90% computer generated and superimposed onto a green screen, the visual style is supposed to depict it as being as close to real life as possible. The Lion King 2019 is "live action" because it was designed to resemble real life photorealistically. You wouldnt know just from watching Avengers Assemble, the extent to which it is cgi. You figure, "yeah I guess the aliens and superpowers are cgi, but it seems like theyre shooting on location." But as we all know all of New York in those scenes is cgi as well as all the aliens.
@@angusmarch1066 MCU movies have a lot of surrealism in them, though. Talking animals, mutated beings, advanced alien planets, magic, magical dimentions, magical gloves, time-travel etc. Other better examples like Avatar, which is trying to remove itself from recognizable reality as much as possible (Pandora is so unlike Earth that it has floating islands), or stuff like Matrix, Speed Racer, Godzilla vs Kong. These movies are a lot less realistic than something like Ratatouille or Finding Nemo (which have talking animals but everything else is supposed to resemble reality) and Toy Story, which even attempts to recreate film effects like the split diopter
"Then we must do without hope. There is always Vengeance!"
God, that made me crack up so hard. After an entire lifetime of fantasy characters waffling on and on about how there is always hope, hearing a character just admit to things being hopeless and holding up vengeancce as a better motivation is soooooooooo satisfying to me.
And yet, that's straight from the book. Chapter VI of the fellowship, Aragorn asks what hope is there without Gandalf, and says to the rest of the fellowship that they have to do without hope, but they still can be avenged.
And this feeling of hopelessness is recurring throughout the books. When Theoden rides to Gondor, it's not because he hope to save Minas Tirith, but for honour, death and glory. And before that, all hope is lost in Helm's deep too
@@krankarvolund7771 It's a very sobering moment, to be sure. That sometimes things seem hopeless, and we don't have it in us to proceed under hope we don't feel. As such, the only thing we can do is cling to whatever keeps us moving forward, whatever allows us to go on. If not hope, then revenge and spite. Because if you just stop in your tracks, there can never be a possibility for hope in the future.
That line reminds me of a verse from Laurie Anderson's song O Superman, particularly the middle bit.
"'Cause when love is gone,
There's always justice
And when justice is gone,
There's always force
And when force is gone,
There's always Mom
Hi Mom!"
@@Bluecho4 Yeah. And well, Tolkien was a WW 1 veteran, he probably knew that feeling very well 😅
@@krankarvolund7771 He assuredly did. More than one of his personal friends died in combat. He was at the Somme, so he might as well have been posted to Hell for six or seven months. His battalion was almost completely wiped out, there's a pretty good chance he'd have been killed too if he hadn't caught some trench fever and been sent home.
"Jolkien Rolkien Rolkien Tolkien" about killed me
It's very interesting that in the Jackson films, he sometimes lifts entire segments shot for shot from the Bakshi film, most notably the hobbits hiding from the Black Riders under the tree. Way ahead of his time, and a very unique film and one that has a warm place in my heart. Excellent video, very well thought out and balanced.
Bakshi was presumably inspired for that scene by Arthur Rackham’s art for “Peter Pan in Kensington Gardens.”
John Howe made a painting of the scene, and has said that he was inspired by Bakshi’s film (he must have been, because in the book the scene is a bit different). Then Peter Jackson hired John Howe to gain access to all of Howe’s Tolkien art.
But it’s probably true that Jackson watched all of the animated Tolkien films, and took inspiration from Bakshi rather than from Howe.
I’m old enough to remember going to the movies to watch this movie. I hadn’t read LOTR or knew much about it, the movie was awesome and after it became obvious there wasn’t going to be a follow up it drove me to read the book, which due to the movie , gave me a better understanding of the book.
Years later I watched the Peter Jackson version and could definitely see an influence.
Which do I prefer? Let’s just say I never had the urge to watch the next two movies in Jackson’s trilogy
You missed something.
When I saw Fellowship in theaters, I got the nagging sense during that scene that I'd seen it before, like it was some kind of deja-vu I didn't understand. The moment I saw that clip again in this essay, I realized why.
@@davidmitchell7181 You disliked Jackson's Fellowship enough to skip the next two movies of the trilogy? I mean, to each their own but I admit that's baffling to me.
"It's a melancholic point about how the people of Middle Earth have grown apart, distrustful, isolated, to the point that even being asked to say 'friend' feels like a trick."
Ouch. 2021 in a nutshell.
There are several art styles in Bakshi’s LotR that make me think “wow, that looks good. I’d like to see a whole movie animated in that style”. And I guess the fact that I thought that several times about the same movie is indicative of the inconsistency problem.
Some of those styles are really stunning.
some of those pastoral backgrounds had my jaw DROPPED.
I do find it amazing how Bakshi seamlessly weaves together beautiful art, ugly-on-purpose art, and ugly-on-accident art. True jack of all trades, that one.
Sort of reminds me of sakuga in anime; you wish the entire show looked like that, but if it did, then it wouldn't be as impactful 😅
honestly, I kinda like it for that. there's not enough experimentation in modern pop culture media. every frame of every animation or story in general is dependent on how much money it can conjure from the audience...not the spirit or heart behind it, nor the spontaneity of truly creative vision.
The artwork on the scene where Gandalf recounts fighting the Balrog is absolutely stunning, definitely one of my faves!
I find myself coming back to this documentary now that a lot of current animators have had their work stolen through the HBO/Discovery merger. So much talent in a non-union hellscape of an industry.
I'm aware Final Space has been written off for tax purposes and will be permanently removed from streaming services but what other examples of this kind of conduct are there? That sounds horrific.
"Dictatorship of the bourgeoisie" moments compilation.
@@owaingray3480Infinity Train, Mao Mao, among others
Coyote vs ACME is on the list.
Looking back, as you touch on, Bakshi was probably among the worst choices to do an animated LoTR as it requires a focus and plot directed discipline which was never Bakshi's strong point. On the other hand, for the 70s, he was pretty much the only choice to do it as he was the only person then seeing the ability of animation to tell adult stories.
I actually agree. He had the artistic skill for such a complex and alien world, but he cannot tell a narrative
So, in a way, Bakshi was to animated _LoTR_ was Zach Snyder was to _Legend of the Guardians: the Owls of Ga'Hoole:_ a poor choice given the fundamental issues with the way they tell a story, but at the same time, probably the only one willing to make the movie and get the movie finished with the animated film industry in North America being what it is.
Rather fittingly, both films would adapt too many books at once, struggle heavily with their plot, but have some brilliantly animated scenes (and I normally dislike the visuals in Snyder's films, so that's saying a lot).
naaaah i disagree. He had a vision on how to articulate the books to a cinematic audienace through the opening of the movie and other parts so that the audience can get whats happening. I just feel he doesnt get enough credit because its very obvisous that his movie inspired Jacksons movie and i have no idea why Jackson doesnt give him more. Possibly due to studio preasure, who knows
He really needed at least one other person working alongside him that was better at the focus and overall story telling so he could focus more on the personal moments he's clearly better at.
@@DafyddBrooks You make a great point. My earliest recollection of Bakshi's LOTR was an edited for television version on Local NYC Channel 5 in the early 1980s. I disliked it as the animation style was so jarring and abstract compared to what I was used to (I think I was 8 or 9). I wasn't ready yet for it. But by college I could see plain as day the influence this animated film had on later science fantasy live film and animation. Give this man his flowers now!
Dan: “This tv movie is largely unmemorable..”
Me: “But..”
Dan: “Save for this absolute banger ‘where there’s a whip there’s a way’l
Me “Hell yeah”
Oh my god it was all I could think
The balrog wings rant is the hardest I've laughed in weeks. The emu falling off the cliff ... I just ... it's so good.
Balrog from Street Fighter II as "without wings" got me good.
"Mister Jolkein Rolkein Rolkein Tolkein" just about killed me. XD
Reminds me a bunch of how Douglas Adams described the flightless Kakapo parrots. The gist being that as they found themselves in a land with no natural predators, they realized that instead of flying in, eating a tiny bit and flying away repeatedly. They could instead eat a whole bunch... "and then have a waddle."
Looking around in nature ut is surprisingly telling that when creatures can give up on flying, they usually do. Because flying is exhausting work for most flyers.
So the Balrog having wings more for intimidation and display rather than flying around like dragons makes evolutionary sense.
Of course, on the other hand Balrogs being part of natural evolution with the limitations it brings in a world where fantastical magical beasts can be conjured by incantations might not make total sense either.
But all in all, I haven't actually thought of how the wings can be basically only there to scare adversaries by spreading out wall to wall.
The slow then rapid descent into madness over the Balrog's wings were intriguing. I had no idea it was such a big debated and infuriating topic.
The power of Jackson's trilogy is such that just watching those fleeting seconds of Sam with Frodo in his arms, exhausted and worn on the lip of doom, threatens to bring tears to my eyes. What a trilogy. What a moment. What a book.
When you talked about the Rankin Bass part and "people would assume the two animated films were the same people" was the exact moment I realized that the animated Hobbit and Lord of the Rings movies I watched as a kid were, in fact, two different companies and not the same people so uh... point to them I guess.
I also think it's interesting that while Rankin-Bass *did* do both "The Hobbit" and "The Return of the King", they're rather different in quality--their "Hobbit" is way better.
Though I do think the Rankin-Bass treatment of the climactic moment of the whole trilogy, Gollum and Frodo at Mount Doom, is actually better than Peter Jackson's.
@@MattMcIrvin Yeah, I think that the idea of trying to turn ROTK into a family-friendly animated musical was just too flawed to ever produce something good. I grew up on those movies, and I have tons of nostalgia, but I fully recognize that it's uniquely wrong-headed. Except for Sam's temptation and the Watchers. It somehow nailed that section. (Which is funny since Jackson completely cut those parts out.)
Same
@@jasonblalock4429 as flawed as it is, where there's a whip there's a way still slaps
@@abnercliff9624 See, that movie is so baked into my childhood I literally don't trust myself to say what songs are good. I just have zero objectivity. Although I am still very fond of "Bearer of the Ring" and "Win The Battle / Lose The War." Even if having a musical number for the Mouth Of Sauron scene is such a *weird* choice.
Two of life's greatest mysteries: "does the Balrog have wings?" and "what does Ralph Bakshi think happens on The Simpsons?".
Shows the, “You bow to no one” line for like 3 seconds. Tears up instantaneously.
I know, right?
I skipped past this part of the vid. It's too early for these feels
"I can't carry it for you..."
Every dang time.
yep, and yep to both.
The visual joke with Balrogs having / not having wings in videogames killed me.
"This LotR nonsense would be far too expensive to film - lets animate it". "This LotR animation is getting pricey, can we not film it and paint over the top?"
I wonder if Bakshi had gotten the same kind of money and support as, say, Shane Dawson, what would he have been able to do? Well, besides all the coke :)
@@d.r.bartlette3431
Kinda random
@@vintheguy I'm just thinking about how limited Bakshi was by low budgets (in some of his movies anyway). Imagine what he could have done if he'd had enough money.
@@d.r.bartlette3431
I meant that your reference to Shane Dawson is pretty random
@@d.r.bartlette3431 da fuq
You’re probably the first CZcamsr I’ve seen who, while not shitting on him by any means, doesn’t give Ralph Bakshi unilateral praise either. It’s interesting to see, and honestly makes me wants to see his movies more than the unilateral praise
I says if you have not seen the movies you should watch them.. I personally Liked the movie Wizards and now I have a few other movies I need to watch..
100% agree! You've summed up my feelings perfectly
Really?
I think Bakshi isn't a complete hack but vastly overrated who got in over his head and never really made a good film. Fire and Ice comes closest to being watchable.
@@Tareltonlives personally Fire and Ice i think was his best movie
The extreme force of the Jackson movies and their soundtrack are underlined by the fact that both super short clips you showed from Return Of The King immediately made me tear up.
watching this for like the 5th time, here's all the moments where someone walks into the background of the shot of dan sitting on a log
3:09-4:08 1 person
4:31-5:37 a few moving pixels in the far background that seem to be a person (interrupted by images thrown up on the right of the screen but if it's a person it's all the same person)
8:59-9:27 1 person (blue shirt)
12:54-12:56 1 person on a bike, seems to be someone else following them behind the bushes but the video cuts away before that person can emerge
14:58-15:08 a few moving pixels in the far background that seem to be a person on a bike
42:06-42:30 2 people, one of them points directly at dan at the end of the shot, presumably having noticed the camera. This is the one that caused me to make this comment
As someone who's seen Fritz the Cat, your delivery of "I am very curious about what Ralph Balkshi thinks happens on the Simpsons" killed me instantly, and I too would like to know.
I'm pretty sure Scratchy has also taken an icepick to the head at some point in the series.
In limited defense of Ralph Bakshi, some of the violence - especially in the older days - wouldn't be too far removed from things that happened in Fritz the Cat (not exactly surprising either, considering Matt Groening was from the same school of underground artists) and is even referenced a few times.
The racism is far more understated though, and we all know Americans can't handle female presenting nipples.
@@Groovebot3k I mean, I'm not coming out of this video meaning to be unfairly critical of Ralph Bakshi's work. But as someone who's seen the first twenty or so season of the Simpsons, I don't know if one can really compare it to something like Fritz the Cat despite Groening's experience with underground art and earlier work like Life in Hell. There was a little more than female presenting nips going on in some of those scenes, the one with Harriet especially.
It makes me wonder if Bakshi was ever approached to do a Couch Gag...
To be fair, if Bakshi was talking in terms of violence he'd hit the nail on the head. Itchy and Scratchy is a definite nod to Fritz with similar levels of violence.
I'm sorry, "the bearded wizard shoots Skeleton Hitler" sounds pretty neato to me
It’s one of the only examples I can think of where the wizard casts Bullet
@@oneinathousand2156 ...and it works!
@@oneinathousand2156 Allow me to introduce you to 'Wizard with a Gun'
czcams.com/video/XYiwjWoenJo/video.html
Which is hilarious and ironic since the Aesop of the movie is technology = bad!
It sounds pretty neat, until you see how flatly it's executed. It's not paced very well, doesn't have any real build-up and doesn't feel like a satisfying conclusion to the moment - because it doesn't really have a moment to it. You can see what he was going for, but it just kinda goes by so fast that you don't have time to feel any impact from it.
"And anyway, if Balrog have wings, why couldn't they just FLY the ring into Mordor?" I know you weren't aware of this, but you wrote that joke just for me. I love it.
This feels almost exactly like the difference between the 1984 and 2021 Dune movies. The 2021 movie is widely considered an amazing adaptation of the source material, but there are still some very devoted fans of the 1984 version. Additionally, the 1984 movie features more exact dialog from the book, and the details are more similar, but it an many ways simplifies or downright contradicts the story's deeper ideas
I found the 2021 movie to be very slick, but also kind of minimal and bland. The 1984 one is batshit, and arguably a worse movie, but Lynch injects it with a really unique energy that makes it worth watching. There is no film like 1984's Dune (for good or ill). 2021 Dune was just going through the motions for me.
the biggest thing I missed from the 2021 Dune were the sets. 1984 Dune had fucking incredible sets/environments
I think we can all agree the "best" Dune film was the unproduced Jodorowsky film, meant to be filmed in the 70s. Say what you want about the concept art, it would have been _aesthetic as hell._ The world is poorer for it not being realized.
the Jodorowsky has nothing to do with Dune@@Bluecho4
Folding Ideas is the avocado tree of CZcams. It takes 15 years but it's so fucking good
What a great analogy. I'll frame it on my wall.
I don't think there's anybody better, and I'm going to check out his monetary support options afterwards.
It involved in mutual symbiosis with a giant ground sloth that was hunted to extinction by humans and now depends on those same humans to exist?
@@AlRoderick Yes, exactly
@@AlRoderick yeah bro is this not obvious??
For me, the weirdest thing about the rotoscoping was that in general the orcs look insubstantial, whereas the Balrog is this lumpy, solid (not to mention appallingly drawn) thing when they should be the other way around.
@@princess_intell That's why I was getting such weird vibes from the flying! Yes, you can just feel the suspension of the actor in the way the Balrog moves. It's so weird to watch.
The Balrog is just built different ok?
Bakshi’s films are art school films (saying this as an animation student). They’re full of experimentation and raw creativity. They both exemplify the creativity of a freshman project and the quality of a film you can study. If you’re wondering I both admire and am confounded by his work
Ralph Bakshi, regardless of how much he offends ones tender delicate contemporary p.c. wokist sensibilities, is certainly, at least, the bigger pioneer and innovator. For example, creators and fans of things like Heavy Metal, Ren and Stimpy, South Park, and Futurama all owe Bakshi a debt. Now, do tell us, WHAT exactly has Jackson pioneered and influenced? .. . zilch!
Who the hell would do x rated garbage as a thing to show to art school students?
Honestly, probably the best adaptation of The Lord of the Rings is the BBC radio drama. It keeps narration to a minimum and relies on dialogue to keep the story moving, has strong acting including some reprisals from Bakshi's film and the perfect casting for Sam, and remains truer to the text including keeping in the songs both film adaptations drop. It's possibly the first thing I suggest people try when mentioning the strengths of audio dramas
I highly recommend it to anybody who hasn't listened to it.
He's right. It's really good and underrated! Also Ian Holm is great as Frodo and Micheal Hordern's Gandalf sounds very similar to Ian McKellen!(Or I suppose McKellen sounds similar to Hordern)
@@RandomAllen Ian McKellen has stated that his Gandalf voice is heavily influenced by recordings of Tolkein's voice.
Yeah it’s the definitive adaptation for me.
Does it have Tom Bombadill in it?
Could not agree more, the BBC adaptation is a true work of art. Personally, I think Jackson's movies are superb but I also have a soft spot for Bakshi's film and think it gets way too much criticism.
The Balrog wings question reminds me why I love fandom. I'm being serious. Like, the Balrog isn't even real and look at how much time and energy so many people over so many decades have devoted to headcanons of a nonexistent monster.
It's great.
As an animation professor, I genuinely appreciate the fair and complete breakdown of Bakshi's work. We (professors) cite his work all of the time to discuss the history of animation technique and process. Thanks, Dan!
I basically agree with all the takes in this video - while also acknowledging that the inconsistency was what made me LOVE it as a child. It mirrored my imagination; constantly patchwork, never in the same style, unendingly weird, frequently featuring splashes of horror, oftentimes drenched in mountainous nature, awkward at times and beautiful at others. I watch it every Fall with my new favourite animated piece, Over the Garden Wall. I love seeing how my understanding and viewing of stories and visuals changed.
Oh, don't even say 'Over The Garden Wall' to me, or I'll have to go and rewatch it again
Having "Band on the Run" by Wings playing in the background whilst discussing the Balrog wing debate was a wonderful touch, and certainly didn't fly right over my head.
I see & acknowledge your 'fly' pun
When my son saw "Wizards" at 5 (with his big Bro) he decided he wanted to be an animator. Many years later he ended up in Las Cruces, NM going to school, and was asked to teach before he graduated. At the school he met Ralph Bakshi's son who taught there and ended up working for Ralph. Believe in you dreams. :)
I was at the Ottawa International Animation Festival the year that Bakshi was a guest, and while my classmates and I were at a pub, one loudly said 'Did anybody else hate Wizards?', as we had watched it in one of our classes. Turns out, Bakshi was was drinking at the same pub and gave her a killer stink eye.
I haven't heard from her since graduation, so I have a suspicion that he had her assassinated.
Surprise ending
Obama was there
my uncle was offered a job to work on the production for lord of the rings, but he turned it down because New Zealand was "too hot and too far away and i'm too old to stay there for three years" lol. i remember seeing the posters of frodo reading under a tree in my school library for a long time before the movie actually came out
I think my own personal review of this movie is that it's the most I've been glued to a movie screen while simultaneously bored out of my mind for most of it. My dad and I (who watches the Jackson films with me roughly annually) both watched this for the first time together and while we occasionally commented on differences we mostly sat in wrapped silence for all 2 hours.
Sounds like my attempt to watch the Star Wars Holiday Special.
Ralph Bakshi is certainly, at least, the bigger pioneer and innovator. For example, creators and fans of things like Heavy Metal, Ren and Stimpy, South Park, and Futurama all owe Bakshi a debt. Now, do tell us, WHAT exactly has Jackson pioneered and influenced? .. . zilch!
@@ColeSlaw-rg1gd he influenced me. He's made me want to make movies.
Forget the Balrog wing controversy. We got Dan here trying to start the "L" in "Gandalf" is silent war.
I know right? It's really distracting
His real problem with pronunciation is when he pronounces the 2nd syllable of “Nazgul” like “gull” rather than “ghoul.” Ouch.
Man, that Balrog wings section is maybe one of the funniest things I've seen in a long time. The subtle Street Fighter joke is incredible.
Yeah, but it also elides the fact that in SF2, the character that's known as "Balrog" was originally "M. Bison" in the original Japanese version, and the M. Bison in the U.S. version is originally "Vega", who goes by "Balrog" in Japan.
@@entroponetics um actually, M Bison was originally the boxer however fearful that Mike Tyson might catch on Capcom changed, Balrog (the Spanish ninja bullfighter) to Vega, Vega (the end game boss) to M Bison, and M Bison to Balrog.
@@godfreemorals that's what they said
@@NAFEDUDE Meaningfully and succinctly explaining the calculus behind the name changes Boxer, Claw, and Dictator undergo between languages is so confusing that people are arguing points they agree upon at each other. That's just how it be.
@@godfreemorals that's what I said.
50:35 your words about a companion to the text perfectly illustrate why I so love the David Lynch version of Dune, and I understand why it doesn't appeal to others. I saw it years before I read the book, and while the visuals stuck with me, the plot had evaporated from my memory. This made it a great visual reference for all the things in the book, helping me to keep it all straight, and allowing me to focus more on the plot on my first read. Which, being Dune, helped immensely.
Try the spice Diver 4k dune fan edit for a tasty treat 😙
I love how the whole video is just to spread the rant on Balrog. Very well hidden in long winding talks about some guy and film techniques
Well done
Fun fact: 4 years after animating the mostly bad Rankin Bass Return of the King, Topcraft made Nausicaa of The Valley of The Wind
Random to see your comment here with only 16 likes after a day. Surprised its not at the top.
Not me commenting something about sakuga in regards to the animation style, which I first learned about from your video, in response to a comment 2 above this one, just to scroll down and see this 😂😂😂
Hay it got us that rendition of Where There’s A Whip There’s A Way, nothing that delivers something like that can ever be all bad.
Whaaaat?!? 🤯
I don’t think the style is that bad, it’s basically the Japanese animation style that’s based more on strong poses (key frames) instead of the Disney/western animation based on fluidity. Even if you look at Hayao Miyazaki’s films there’s plenty of times where characters are standing mostly still with their mouth oscillating between three or four shapes. You can see that sort of restraint in the Rankin-Bass Tolkien films, just with more westernized designs on top (although Smaug is very eastern looking for a dragon)
So balrogs are available with or without wings to preference, like maxi pads. Good to know.
I got that Overnight Extended Balrog with Improved Absorption
HAH! DEAD!
But wait, now I've got loads of questions regarding the Red Bull in "The Last Unicorn"... I'm joking, of course. However, I am but a peasant who cherishes the film from early childhood, and I never read the book... Why didn't the unicorns just drown in the sea when they were driven there by the Red Bull? What did they DO there all that time [SPOILER ALERT] until the film's namesake (but mostly everyone else as she kind of stumbles around in a haze) defeated the Red Bull, allowing for them to return? Just be coral? I'm serious. Please someone tell me. The movie is beautiful and quirky, but it's full of just _the worst_ music. Plus it deviates from the original book anyway, which I can't really read anyway, cos... long story --short-- less long: very bad eyesight, not fixable, and prone to headaches.
Cheers ♡
Edit 9: Don't just say "cos they're immortal". It's a two-part question. Cheers ♡♡
@@mookinbabysealfurmittens idk how they survive, but I think they're the "white horses" on the top of breaking waves. I don't remember the music as *bad* but apart from the main theme (banger) and Now That I'm a Woman (meh) I don't remember it at all so idk
@@gingganggoolie I re-watched it a few years ago, and I was having a lot of blackouts around then, but I do remember being shocked and dismayed at the cringey songs, at least in the first act. And 2nd... I also still remembered then the horror of the freak show, culminating in the Harpy scene. Terrified me as a kid, rightly so. Totally metal, but for a kid - I was 5 or 6 when I first saw it - it was intense & terrifying. And kind of disgusting, what with every wart and odd hair perfectly placed on the sagging, discoloured skin hanging off that Harpy's prominent bones. The intensity was seeded the moment the Harpy showed herself, a monstrous, miserable creature, and the attack scene was done very well with the style of quick cuts, silhouette, and flashes, and the particular use of colour.
Anyway, sorry for rambling. Kind of a habit.
@@gingganggoolie On that same vein (animated scenes that hit hard), "The Rats of NIMH". A properly epic epic, but often so intense, like the flashback scene to the horrors of the lab. The scientist is holding a rat and injecting a giant syringe into its belly and it's squealing in pain and fright... That stuck with me forever.
I had no idea Fritz the Cat and the animated LOTR film were made by the same person. That is...quite the repertoire.
Are you aware of what Peter Jackson made in his early career?
Ralph Bakshi, regardless of how much he offends ones tender delicate contemporary p.c. wokist sensibilities, is certainly, at least, the bigger pioneer and innovator. For example, creators and fans of things like Heavy Metal, Ren and Stimpy, South Park, and Futurama all owe Bakshi a debt. Now, do tell us, WHAT exactly has Jackson pioneered and influenced? .. . zilch!
@@ColeSlaw-rg1gd I want you to know that first sentence of yours contains the most embarrassing string of words I've read all week.
@@M2ofEMMM Yeah well, just the same, I do believe that string to be quite apt. The man's earlier films (particularly), like Heavy traffic and Coonskin, are the sort of thing that make modern woke types $h!t blood. They've offended more conservative sensibilities too, but for different reasons (mainly their raunchiness and vulgarity).
My dude, you've copy/pasted this exact same reply on at least a dozen threads here. Glad the guy's work resonates with you. No one here is equally invested in Jackson's work, but you can pick this fight you're looking for literally anywhere else on the internet.
I had no idea The Black Cauldron was considered a huge flop (it came out long before I was even born) but oh man that move was a staple of my childhood. I saw it before I even knew what The Lord of the Rings was, and it was probably my gateway into loving high fantasy stories. Pretty interesting that it is kinda considered a way less successful version of Bakshi's LOTR. The Black Cauldron movie and especially The Horned King will always have a place in my heart, just as LOTR does.
Not only did it flop, it almost killed Disney. People forget that Disney was seriously considering shuttering it’s animation studio entirely before The Little Mermaid was a runaway success.
The Black Cauldron flopped? I loved it, and the whole series of novels (chronicles of Prydan?) was a staple of my childhood, along with Earthsea, Belgarad, the Weirdstone, Narnia, and of course Middle Earth and Dragonlance. Man, I would give anything to go back to being a young reader, there’s something about reading as a kid that we lose as adults. Anyway yet another brilliant essay on a flawed but important film, and one of the most innovative animators of his time.
Nobody really talks about it or knows it exists.
I read the books (Lloyd Alexander) and the movie did not do The Black Cauldron justice.
Interestingly, despite the fact that I’m only 21 I grew up with the Bakshi version first, most likely because my dad thought the Peter Jackson version might be kinda inappropriate for a kid. In hindsight this is hilarious considering Bakshi’s oeuvre
I also grew up with Bakshi's version because my dad was (still is) a huge fan of the books and the Middle Earth world. Jackson's version didn't exist at the time, I think it was around 1998 when I saw the animated movie.
Same here, I’m 23 and was introduced into Jackson’s LOTR during 2nd grade, but wanted to watch them earlier than that. I found the Bakshi version in an accordion VHS case at a video store, and was allowed to watch that
Bakshi's decision to rely on rotoscoping for stuff that animation would have been uniquely able to depict in the 70s - the balrog, the wraiths, the orcs, Helm's deep - is extraordinarily bizarre. You're working in the one medium where you could convincingly draw and ink a tall demon of shadow and flame, and instead you opt to shove a guy in a lion mask, slippers, and giant, flopping moth wings?
I feel this is the same pitfall of 21st century Zemeckis movies.
he prebably was running out of money at the time ... sooooo thats what we got.
All of the live-action was intended to be shot just for reference, to be animated by hand later. Trouble was in those days, unless you accept Pokemon-level of choppy, then character animation can get very rime-consuming - and time = $.
They ran out of both, and were not coordinated between depts to run a tight-enough ship to finish by deadline what was originally envisioned.
@@StumpyDaPaladin Doesn't rotoscoping take MORE effort though?
@@LordVader1094 I have no idea
my friends and i used to sing "bilbo, bilbo, bilbo BAGGINS!" all the time in school and it drove the english professor insane
As much as American Pop is my favorite Bakshi movie, to segue into a clip from THE SECRET OF NIMH gave me goosebumps. I would love to see you do a similar retrospective about Don Bluth.
YES!! This.
If you’re still looking for a great Don Bluth retrospective I’d highly recommend the one by the youtuber B-mask
Thank you for giving "Where There's a Whip There's a Way" it's well-deserved credit. That song haunted my childhood in the very best way.
...Wondering if anyone has used it as a title for a fanfic involving... any balrog, really
i do think he's sleeping on frodo of the nine fingers, though
I stumbled on it on CZcams one day, and I am still pissed that all the comments were like "oh my god imagine if the Peter Jackson movies had been like this, hahaha CRINGE"
Screw that. That song is a banger, and one of the few things that could've improved Jackson's trilogy would have been singing orcs.
The best part about that musical number is the complete ignorance (or just indifference) of the nature of Tolkien’s Orcs. One fault that critics bring up about them is that they are so inhuman as to be one dimensional. They are just plain and simply evil (as they were created to be), but they are also sentient beings, who would in reality be more complicated than simple villains. The fact that the Rankin Bass Orcs are just like you and me, displaying contempt and complacency in the service of a catchy tune (“We don’t wanna go to war today..”) is nothing like the scary, purposely driven Orcs of the book.
"The bearded wizard ends the war by shooting skeleton Hitler"
Now that's a sentence.
The first time I heard about this movie had the immediate determination to watch it with a bit of "Gandalf's special leave". Found what I thought was the full movie on CZcams, it took me 30 min to realize it was effectively a fan dub comedy of the movie. It was the most subreal experience ever had with this platform...
you know it is on dvd last i checked
Never seen you before, but I do watch a lot of video essays. I’m glad you found yourself on my recommended page, this was interesting.
I very distinctly remember CZcams’s original layout, and sometimes I wish- even just for one day- they’d go back to it just to highlight how much it’s changed. Like, remember when the front page was just a search bar? Or when people had youtube-style Halloween costumes? Wild
Its such a strange coincidence that both major adaptations of TLOTR were directed by men whose previous films were notoriously gory and explicit cult films.
And now the Amazon series is being made but the guys who wrote... Jungle Cruise
If I had a nickel for every time this happened….I’d have two nickels, but it’s weird that it happened twice!
Dan’s pronunciation of “Gandalf” is gonna throw me every time.
Like seriously! Where did he pick this up!? It's so bizarre
gandaff
I thought it was some kind of hidden reference or running gag but I either didn't get it or just missed the payoff
I think it's a reference to the Aruman/Saruman thing?
@@marys.9367 gandafffff
LOL "Band On The Run" during the Balrog discussion... Clever!! I didn't notice that before. This so good! I have come re-watch it every few months!!
Bakshi's depiction of trans, queer, crossdressing/in-drag, and gay men as existing on screen just long enough to be brutalized can be excused, I think, as part of his desire to capture reality. It was absolutely true to life.
I mean, it's kind of like how giving work to Black actors just to have them play stereotypes was the most progressive thing you could possibly do at the time. At least Bakshi was acknowledging LGBT+ people existed, although I can't fault any LGBT+ people for being uncomfortable with how he portrayed them.
Not excused, perhaps, but contextualized.
To his credit, yes, he was presenting a group of people who can hardly be presented in media TODAY without controversy and white-washing though an inarguably-sympathetic lens.
However, it was admittedly clumsy and potentially even exploitative in that they weren’t characterized terribly well, and served as targets of socialized abuse in his works.
It’s a complicated portrayal, to say the least. But complicated portrayals are the name-of-the-game in Bakshi’s work.
what Bakshi movies featured trans people?
Ralph Bakshi, regardless of how much he offends ones tender delicate contemporary p.c. wokist sensibilities, is certainly, at least, the bigger pioneer and innovator. For example, creators and fans of things like Heavy Metal, Ren and Stimpy, South Park, and Futurama all owe Bakshi a debt. Now, do tell us, WHAT exactly has Jackson pioneered and influenced? .. . zilch!
@@ColeSlaw-rg1gd He depicted the LGBTQ+ community positively in the 20th century. What exactly makes you think Bakshi wasn't the 70s version of a "pc wokist" artist? People have literally always complained about efforts to reform social mores to be more concerned for the oppressed. They did it against Bakshi in the 70s and you're doing it now
One of my favourite moments in the Bakshi adaptation is when Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas are chasing the orcs and the scenes go on for like 10 minutes of dudes running and at one point Aragorn eats shit and falls in slow motion it's fucking hilarious.
@@mezzb Huh? The point of him tripping is to convey how exhausted he is by the epic chase. Why do you think it's a blooper?
@@mbenoni7397 because it looks family
Honestly I could listen to Dan narrating a snail race for five hours, but this is a fascinating topic in itself. Some of the visuals in Bakshi movies are unlike anything I've ever seen in my DIsney-filled life. And as always, stellar analysis
Same.
He'd probably make the snail race interesting. We'd learn unexpected things about snail athletics
A Lukewarm Narration of a Snail Race
This could almost be considered a blueprint example for aspiring CZcamsrs of what a REALLY fucking good video expose can and should look, flow and play out like!! Hats off to you for your exceptional efforts here!
I started watching this thinking, "I remember a LOTR esque animated movie that I saw as a child, I wonder if this coked up animator was the guy who made it." Lo and behold, it was wizards. This has put a decades long mystery to bed for me, thank you.
Wizards is weird and wonderful.
I need to mention this because Dan never indicates he's aware:
The ending of the Bakshi LOTR was CHANGED for the DVD versions. Originally, the narration (which occured at that freeze-frame before the credits) said "so ends the first part of the war of the one ring," making it more clear a sequel was intended.
I have no idea why this change was made, but old VHS editions have the original narration.
I mean it's pretty clear why. At that point, it would have been obvious there was no sequel coming, so they would have wanted to avoid confusing people and getting angry letters asking where part 2 is.
@@manjackson2772 I'd like to think the average member of the general public is actually a lot smarter than movie studios give them credit for. So many bizarre studio decisions can be explained by the fact that studio executives genuinely think movie going audiences are a bunch of idiots and will reject anything too intellectually challenging.
now i have a distinct memory of watching this on tv. was really confused when i was a kid, thinking "i wonder when i'll get to see the rest of it", asking my parents, getting shrugs as answers
@@Drestlin Ironically one could continue directly from Bakshi's film to Jackson's Return of the King and not miss irreconciable amounts of plot.
@@sirjanska9575 yeah but by that point i had already devoured the book several times :D
"A Coked-Out Pervert From Brooklyn: The Ralph Bakshi Story" would be quite the catchy title for a biography.
I would also accept "Bakshi-Crazy: The Unbelievable True Story of American's Most Controversial Cartoonist"
The second one’s subtitle is a bit generic, tbh. But the main title is great. Bakshi-Crazy is perfect for him.
@@LordJagd How about "Bakshi-Crazy: The Story of a Coked-Out Pervert from Brooklyn Turned Controversial Cartoonist"
Finding the "Most Controversial Cartoonist" is like plucking a single raindrop from a cloud.
@@ava_marie_v He'd probably go for that lol, he's on Facebook and allegedly does respond to people. Last I heard from a student his son still works at New Mexico State University who did also answer emails. I didn't save his email tho as I'm not an animation student and had no questions 😭
"Most controversial cartoonist"
So, john krickfauksi,??
Putting "Band on the Run" by Wings behind the clip while we're talking about the Balrog's wings (or lack thereof) is genius.
VERY well made. Great documentary. Was not expecting so much depth! And also, "Gandaff".
I never thought about modern green screen-heavy filmmaking as being indebted to the early days of animation-merged rotoscoping, but that is such a perfect comparison. I suppose there’s a little Cool World in everything these days!
Me, a few minutes ago: “Hey, I recognize the tune in the background during the Balrog segment, what song is that aga- oh goddammit it’s Band on the Run by Wings. Fuck you Dan.”
WINGS! THAT'S the connection! I was like "Why 'Band on the Run'?" when watching, but like my brain goes "It's a Paul song" first, forgetting the name of his post-Beatle band until it comes up elsewhere.
Out around the same time was also Watership Down which if anyone has seen is an incredibly dark and disturbing animated film. Also Plague Dogs is not mentioned nearly enough. I miss that style of animation Sword in the Stone is probably my favorite Disney film.
I was amused that you pronounced Tolkien both as "Towl keen" (the correct pronunciation according to the internets) and "Toll Kin" (how everyone I'd ever met pronounced it until the biopic movie came out) effectively interchangeably throughout this.
"His first family friendly feature, Wizards"
Well, about as family friendly as Bakshi can get.
*remembering the blood and chunks flying out of Elenor's father as Necron 99 guns him down*
Sounds legit...
I think to remember that Bakshi himself in a commentary called it "a family picture" (which a certain other critic than made into a catchphrase).
It was the 70s.
Rated PG.
@@sagecolvard9644 so was Jaws. back then I don't think PG-13 actually existed
Love Bakshi! Wizards is a lot of fun.
Edit: oops you didn't like that one lol
Wizards is frickin tons of fun. Good? maybe not. But I dunno, it's his most traditionally watchable film and is a great late night movie for friends.
Hi Adum
Wizards is amazing.
Your taste is validated.
Wizards kinda looks like He-Man
Hmmm, suspicious
It’s a mess but It’s still fun!
The story about Spanish studios trying to destroy reels because they couldn't understand it was just roto reference is 100% plausible and legit. I ran into the some types of misunderstandings working on indie productions in the late 90s / early 2000s.
Since this video came out, I've got my first animated short commission! I often put this on while shooting. It's an inspiring piece and Dan floats the perfect tone between informative, humorous, and truly passionate about the subject. Bakshi is such a fascinating artist. Ultimately, this video makes me want to make art. Thanks, Dan.
Considering Bakshi’s tendency towards episodic work, it seems like what he would have done very well is - ironically enough - a Hobbit movie.
The Hobbit is much more of a “one chapter a night” style of episodic plot than LOTR, which is one of the main reasons Jackson’s style was such a bad fit.
Next big HBO series perhaps?
@@Ralph-yn3gr Does HBO do quirky kids shows?
@@falconJB They did at some point, right? They had Fraggle Rock, that has to count for something.
I thought the studio wanting the Hobbit to be expanded into 3 movies was why the Hobbit films suck?
@@lainiwakura1776 they are talking about how the original book is episodic in nature, like it’s not a traditional story structure. Every chapter is a new story. The movies failed because they tried to make it a traditional story structure and stretched it over three movies.
The cheap midi version of “Band on The Run” during the segment on “Does the Balrog have wings” is absolute gold.
Guess I just need to just be humbled and happy that it took me this long to find someone else who caught that. Made me laugh even harder for how it took me so long to catch what it was. Tips hat
thanks for telling me what it is! i look forward to getting to that point on this rewatch :)
As someone who's not familiar with the song, what's the significance here?
@@archer2181 the song was recorded by the band Wings.
FINALLY I FOUND A COMMENT TALKING ABOUT THIS
I KNEW I HEARD THE SONG BEFORE BUT I COULDN'T REMEMBER THE NAME TO SAVE MY LIFE.
Great video-essay! I loved it.
And that closer... what a superb way to drive the point!
I'm glad that others recognize the flawed but ultimately impressive Bakshi LotR. I watched this a million times on VHS as a kid and was always in awe of the different visual styles in the film. Thank you for exploring how and why this film exists.
The lesson of the video: If you want to adapt Lord of the Rings, you have to make perverted movies in a medium usually associated with children's entertainment first.
Does that mean Zone Toons is going to make the next LOTR movie?
@@MackenzieChandlerDunnavant You joke but a lot of anime directors got their start in porn
Wait does this apply to Peter Jackson too? Isn't his former genre the kind of slapstick horror that Sam Raimi popularized? I think I need to see Reanimator now.
@@LimeyLassen I would watch a LOTR anime.
@@romxxii He also made Meet The Feebles, which is a really raunchy puppet movie.
“Video games alternate between wings and no wings” [shows Balrog from SF2]
/spittake
38:30 - came here to highlight this too
from the US version of SF2*. In the Japanese version, Balrog is the Spanish figther with a mask and a claw.
@@Krokrodyl Still no wings, although he does fly a lot more.
@@Krokrodyl Strangely enough, in the Japanese version of LOTR the Balrog wears a red hat and does psycho crushers on Gandalf.
I've been waiting for the next part to this for a while. Good luck!
Great essay, this is the first video I've seen from the channel, glad to have found you.
"Peter Jackson, the Guy who makes perverted puppet movies"
As a New Zealander, I am happy that his early work is credited as such.
I still think Bad Taste is his best movie
It's a mess, but I am still fond of "Meet the Feebles." I giggle at how few of my fellow Americans are familiar with Jackson's work before LOTR.
@@argentpuck I loved Bad Taste and Heavenly Creatures, and I think the wide gulf between those movies is what made me really interested in what he would do Lord of the Rings.
Dead alive was my favorite of his early work. As a horror fan it was a must. Still one of the craziest, goriest movies I've seen that wasn't Italian.
Meet the feebles!! Meet the feebles!! \o/ Where else can you see a Walrus banging a cat? :D
every time he says "gan-daff" a Balrog loses its wings
Or gains it.
See, this is what caused the confusion -- now, half the Balrogs are running around wingless, trying to make due with flourishing their shadows like capes a la (Alan Rickman as) Severus Snape's-dramatically-flaring-wizarding-robes style. And the other half are smugly flickering-fluttering their actual (yet somehow still ephemeral) wings almost too fast to be seen. And thus, the conflicting reports from the eye-witnesses that manage to survive the encounters by running away fast enough.
@@iprobablyforgotsomething I think they have wings of power.
And Aragorn - his trousers. (It's a meme from the Russian fandom _(Where is it mentioned that Aragorn wore trousers?)_ which is huge btw, even politicians here use the word "Mordor" during political fights on TV).
- Adûnâi
... Potentially
Thank you for comprehensively "unfolding" the stories regarding the old animated versions. They were an indelible part of my childhood and my entry into knowing about LOTR. Another banger video on a channel absolutely brimming with them. Thanks a ton