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Is it Wrong to Write a Generic Bad Fantasy Race? (My Response to Extra Credits)
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- čas přidán 8. 04. 2021
- Well I'm a little late to the party on this one, but I couldn't resist tackling this video from Extra Credits on why it's bad to write a generic evil or antagonistic race or species in fantasy worlds or gaming. Many people already have picked it apart, and I had to throw my hat in the ring because...well I'm a writer, and I care deeply about the rules, standards, and practices of writing fiction, and I'll stand in opposition to anyone who says we should limit our creative choices.
I hope ya'll enjoy. If you don't agree, that's fine...just be respectful in the comments. Please subscribe if you enjoyed, like the video to let me know you did, and comment below with your thoughts! It would mean the world to me.
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Bro I can't believe they looked at orks and said "yeah those are black people"💀
'Wonder what they're smokin'...
What did you expect from a group of moral busy bodies that judge people by their skin color and gender?
Seems like a rather rude comparison to most folks, but I seriously wonder how somebody who could could draw such a conclusion think they have the moral high ground .
Huh strange how the Orcs live in tribal societies with African styled cultures huh even their designers and artist used African culture to design their oh wait... there it is hahaha I get it now.
@@joshuacooke5730 That is bullshit and you know it! The only way anyone can see anything remotely resembling any kind society stemming from Africa let alone with black people in general, is if they are more racist than Keemstar Vaush and Nick Fuentes combined.
Narrator of EC: "The Tyranids are not all mindless, but thinking as well. So they must have empathy."
Tyranids: "FOOD! DESTROY! FOOD! DESTROY! GLORY TO THE HIVE!!!"
Yeah that seems really empathetic to me lets just feed them they'll totally become our friends afterwars
they keep thinking about UwUvex
Exactly they just want food. The EVIL humans should let themselves be eaten. 😂
A psychopath is also thinking, does that mean he has empathy? Tyranids only "think" as directed by the hive mind, and the hive mind very much does not care about the things it's killing and eating. Does an anteater care about the ants, or a whale reconsider the lives of the krill?
According to Extra Credits, the first Mario game is bad because the player isn't allowed to morally agonize over the motivations of the goomba.
Jontron: come on Mario, I just wanna jump on the Goomba, I just wanna eat the mushroom...
Sounds eerily similar to MatPat’s terrible “Mario’s a Sociopath” theory
@@ulfberht4431 God that video was dumb…
I love how they use Mass Effect as an example of a game without a generic bad race when the entire series is about fighting the reapers, an entire race of BAD GUYS who sure as hell didn't give any of their pawns in it a choice.
hell, even the batarians aren't given much nuance either and are typically portrayed as a race of assholes,even the ones you don't end up fighting and killing are still doing crimes and bad things
@@sarafontanini7051 and don’t even get me started on the Vorcha
Yeah some people have moralized the issue in fantasy because the races look like humans. I guarantee 90% of people both in real life and in scifi/fantasy stories would say if an inhuman like alien species attacked earth it wouldn't be racist or speciesist to fight them. But of course people want to connect things to what THEY see. Other people realize a lot of monstrous species are just meant to be monstrous and not some allegory for a group of modern people.
Considering that the reapers are robots I don’t think that they count as a “race”.
@@josephkeen7224 Any intelligent beings would count as a "race" in this context, they're also described as synthetic and organic. Again, we keep obsessing over human appearance. Realistically this argument could apply to aliens, robots, or anything.
the fact that people like extracredits so badly wants to humanize and 'not judge' inherently adversary fictional entites, but then saying with absolute convicition that killing people because 'they made the wrong choice/have bad ideas' is entirely okay should make everyone feel uneasy about the way their moral views and undestanding of sympathy works. it's honestly very creepy when you really start thinking about it.
Yup those are clear redflags. I knew a dood that said that he doesn't see himself as a tyrant for killing those that have opposing views if said views were "dangerous". I told him when and where do you stop? Are you gonna kill just them? Or are you gonna kill their family too? He said "yes, he'll kill them all because they made their choice". I simply came at him like good job dumbass you became a villain and justified whatever fucked up mindset they did have by going murderhobo on the whole village.
Basically, they're willing to commit genocides so they feelings or the feelings of others aren't hurt. Be VERY wary of these people.
@D00MKOLA
Honestly I caught that from other critiques of this video, but didn't think about it until I read your comment 32 minutes ago as of writing this reply.
And that's just creepy, but kinda messed up. Because those who made the choice can always be reasoned with so long as they're not beyond reason. But the implication being made in this video is it's okay to kill enemies who can be redeemed if the choice to kill them is available, because they made the choice to be evil.
Plus they omit the moral ethics of those that choose to be evil while arguing the harmful implications of character that are evil by nature. Which shows a lack of understanding of moral ethics.
What did you expect from the liberals?They basically want to bring back fascism as a way to fight fascism.Their views of minorities can be described as "I think ugly people are too stupid to suceed on their own,so I'll give them money so they can be better".They hold contradictory opinions & they have no idea how real people actually act like.Just look at Joe Biden.
"It's racist to hate murderous canibal rapists!" makes you think if they aren't arguing for their own favor.
@@DemonicRemption What'd you expect?They're literally fas'cists.They claim to be peaceful but that's only to their own group (& even that's rare).
They fully support genocide against those they disagree with.In their fight to stop "na'zis" (that is to say centrists & moderates) they became the na'zis.They are the source of the oppresion they hate,they are "he who fights oppressors".
And they claim to be good for the simple (& insane) fact that they don't "put minorities down" even when they do.If you look at an orc who's described as violent & crazy,& you think of 50 Cent or Will Smith,then you're a racist.
They're good because they say so,& cause their enemies are na'zis,they're good cause they feel bad about thinking blacks are inferior to them.Much like Obama they're always claim black people need to be respected but they'll rarely actually help them with their problems.Thy'll just put the occasional nig'ga in astrophysics or government to be PROGRESSIVE.
I like how the slime monster has a human skull in it. I mean, it eats people. Why would I assume it isnt evil.
Well sometimes cattle eat people ( bones at least) fore low ether potaium or sulfer in the soil
Maybe some dude just upset it a little too much. Smh had it coming
"There are plenty of destructive species and forces like termites, locusts, hyenas, floods, earthquakes, piranhas, and taxes"
Raven you killed me with say taxes are a destructive force and I died of laughter
@Prussian Gamer
I came across this comment before getting that far into the video, and it still got a chuckle out of me. xD
I would argue that even those species have some basic level of empathy, even if it is undermined by them having to put that aside for survival, but you can say that about any species including humans, we're very destructive to the planet as a whole, yet no one would argue we don't have empathy, but at the end of the day all wild species do what they do to survive, and that entails murder and other destructive behaviour, you can't really call a wild species evil for doing what they have to to survive.
To be clear I don't like Extra Credits as I think a lot of their arguments are bad faith clickbait that's not accurate to what they're talking about, but there is something to be said about the dangers of taking past tropes at face value and putting them in your story without thinking of their implications, especially in fantasy, a genre that takes a lot from past folklore which often didn't shy away from supporting ideas of xenophobia and whatnot.
Yes speculative fiction is speculative so you don't have to abide by reality 100%, but at the same time you can't really blame people for finding some racist/xenophobic undertones in stories about race good guys vs race bad guys, they might not be analogues for real people but the idea of an evil group of people is inherently rootee tribalist behaviour, and while you can mitigate moral dilemmas by dehumanising the bad guys so that they are without a shadow of a doubt harmful and not capable of empathy, even if we take political undertones completely out of the picture, this idea of bad guy race can also hurt the narrative of your story by undermining any theme of "looking past appereance", "learning to not see the other as the enemy" and other similar themes your story might have.
I don't want to make shit as simple as "LOTR is problematic" or whatever shit unnuanced hot take, but I think it's good to question the implications of old tropes nonetheless, and I feel like too many here are just shitting on the idea of even having a civil conversation about this topic because they wanna spite Extra Credits, which I get why they would want to but even a broken clock can be right twice a day.
@@ginogatash4030 we're so dangerous we can wipe out ecosystems on accident
@@ginogatash4030 You're tip-toeing a lot around your points, but I think there's something fundamental here you are not understanding. When I say my orcs are evil, what is being implied? Are you sure that there are implications at all, or is it just you who can't help but see what you want to see?
But fine, I won't fault you for finding racist or xenophobic undertones in those stories, but I'll have to ask you some things:
So what if it's tribalist?
So what if they frustrate "beyond appearances" or "beyond us/them" themes?
Sure, I can see how the points you bring up are worthy of consideration if someone were to write a story where those themes are explored. You're just forgetting that not every story is or should be like that.
There would be nothing to discuss then, civilly or otherwise, if every consideration could be dismissed with "so what?" Question them old tropes if you want, but I'll question its relevancy because you will see that the stories they frustrate are not the stories they were meant to tell.
@@Oera-B I mean the trope involves a sentient human like species being inherently evil because of genetics rather than personal choice, like it or not it's something we inherited from tribalist behaviors of the past, especially from real history, and while not inherently bad of a trope I think it's fair for people question the implications of it under a modern lense, especially if it's put in stories that otherwise are about more nuanced depictions of good and evil and all that.
Obviously not every story will or should follow the sane themes, but for the ones that do delve into morality a bit deeper it's gonna kinda undermine the central themes a bit if they just have a convenient race badguy for the heroes to slaughter without moral quarrels.
But also it's worth wondering what kind of message a trope sends even if unintended, cause while you can make sure the fictional bad guys can't be seen as analogues of any people at the end of the day you're still writing a story where traits like evil can be determined by species rather than individual free will even if said species is smart, and people can read a lot more than you'd think into that.
Like it or not the concept of an evil "other" is inherently rooted in our collective human history with bigotry, even animals like wolves couldn't escape the label of "evil" despite them just doing what they needed to survive, which is why they are defacto villains in so much folklore, it's kind of an ever persistent symptom of our tendencies as a species to dehumanize and persecute each other under the pretense of being better than everyone else, so if you must employ the trope you might wanna be mindful of how you go about handling it cause it's easy to give people the wrong idea when not careful, like Rowling's elf slaves or Goblin bankers having some weird in universe implications that I doubt she herself consciously planned.
i like that one comment that's like "ROLL THE DICE, CARL!"
i imagine it went on with something like this:
"I want to talk to the orc."
"why?"
"I want to ask why is it trying to kill us."
"are you sure you want to do that?"
"yes?"
"roll for persuation."
(DM checks dice)
"sigh, the orc scoffs at you and asks if you are going to beg for mercy like all the other humans."
"I ask it why is it trying to kill us."
"the orc laughs and says, *"because killing humans is fun!"* and swings it's axe at you. will you dodge or block the attack?"
"Why Characterizing a group like this can be Lazy At best and At worst activly Harmful to the World you are creating" Warhammer looking nervously at this Video but suddendly remembers that the concept worked for almost 40 years
And still works, and is still fun as hell
It worked for Tolkien and inspired the entire popularity of modern fantasy.
In Tolkien's the silmarillion he explains how orcs were created, it was morgoth the first dark lord who corrupted the elves into orcs and we know that some elves were banished form valinor for killing their own kin so orcs in Tolkien's text were actually evil elves. Morgoth then breeds the orcs to create his army, and then when sauron creates the uruk-hai it is believed that he mated orcs with men from the east ( who also followed the dark lord ) so orcs and uruk-hai weren't actually a race created by iluvatar ( god in Tolkien's universe ) as only the one has the power to create life but instead orcs were "genetically modified elves and men" through thousands of years of breeding designed to do the dark lords bidding.
It's kind of funny and sad that in 40k the least evil factions within the galaxy is the faction designed to fight a war against star gods and their robot skeleton, and the faction of hungry space bugs.
@@Visitormassacre Orks just want a zoggin good time of krumpen all around.
The Imperium was shattered in its golden age, most worlds pushed to the brink of death, some enslaved or destroyed by Xenos, and other by themselves.
Eldar ran from their worlds due to the weird and messed up crap that the others of their species were doing.
Dark Eldar still do as they did during the age of strife.
Tau are willing slaves to low level psykers(ethereals) that do communism.
Fireside Enclave is Tau without ethereal oppression.
Tyranids are a simple force of nature.
Chaos corrupts, desecrates, and destroys everything it touches.
Necrons were dicks before, and after being turned.
I would say least evil is farsite enclave.
@@ivanalukic1612 I'd say the NCR is better.
@@blaster23456 na the mushroom kingdom is the least evil
My favourite thing about the orks is just the fact that all orks emit a bit of physical energy
I just can’t get over the fact that by EC’s logic, prince Zuko from avatar would be no better than princess Azula and fire lord Ozi because Zuko chose to fight for the fire nation once upon a time.
I like how he keeps using slimes as pictures, a none sentient creature that kinda just moves and absorbs things. They are a perfect example of a force of nature in fantasy. But instead he uses them to desplay morals.
Your cannibalism example is actually somewhat similar to a favorite of mine:
Imagine you have a culture whose religion dictates that devouring of the corpse guarantees the devoured a place in paradise, or at least is a pragmatic way to guarantee them *rest,* in a world where the dead can be raised.
Oh...
Dis is scary good. Go on!
Holy crap, that's actually a clever twist.
Is that from something?
@@NobodyC13 Not directly, no. It is inspired by a few things, though.
dude, this is by FAR the most Concise, well thought out argument i've heard about this so far. Congrats man, you deserve it.
Thank you very much!
The whole "cannibalism as a moral good" could be illustrated by the Bosmer in the Elder Scrolls series.
They made a deal with the forest God to NEVER harm any vegetation, which as a tradeoff the God makes them more than capable of thriving in the forest, they can sing trees into habitable living space. BUT considering they have to be carnivorous and they can't pass on a meal they will fast before battle, because they don't have a lot of time to eat their kills. They will also eat family member if needed.
In their culture, not only is their God legitimate and okay with cannibalism, its mandatory.
In Spellforce 3: Fallen God, cannibalism is also seen as something religious and morally good by the Trolls, as the Trolls see eating the flesh of another, be it one of their own kin or a "brittlebone" as they call the other races, to be an act that both frees the soul of the dead and empowers the body of the living, through the blessings of their goddess Mugwa. Even in the tutorial, the main character Akrog is preparing for the Devouring, which is a sacred rite where he eats the heart of the previous chieftain in order to release that chieftain into the Moonlit River, their version of the afterlife, and take his place as the new chieftain.
When I saw this I thought the demons from doom and a baron of hell planting flowers instead of fighting doomguy
“Try to diversify the evil by having evil elves, dwarves, or humans”
Ok, what about the haradrim, the humans who allied with sauron in lotr? It wasn’t orcs riding war elephants, I’ll tell ya that! The nazgul were human turned wraith. Drukhari (dark elder) in warhammer 40k? The 3 dwarf lords who didn’t fall to sauron, but were still corrupted by the rings of power? There’s plenty of evil diversity, you just have to take off your blinders. Sauroman and sauron weren’t orcs, sauroman was human and sauron was a shapeshifter stuck in the form of an elf (then as a disembodied eye after losing physical form).
Ok real quick I know I’m super late but Saruman was not a normal human. He was a spirit given human form to help the people’s of middle earth defeat Sauron.
The one trope that really bugs with fantasy. Is painting ALL of humanity as evil. I mean at least give humans as much nuance.
@@zionleach3001 Oh it is really annoying, I see this trope in mangas a lot and it is extremly annoying.
I don’t understand where the connection between orcs and humans is
I have no idea either
Idk the four limbs maybe but thats a stupid comparison tbh
I can explain that to you, as long as you don't mind some reading. It is impossible to explain in 2 sentences.
The debate has been raging on the subject around 2019 and 2020 just as EC say. From what I know it started in (or it was forced into) the D&D 5e community. It is a debate that came from the release of the Volos guide to monsters book. In the book it talks about a bunch of monsters, give stats for new monsters as well as introducing new player races. Among these were Orcs and Kobolds. The only races in the whole game that a negative attribute score in the whole game. Something I did not like simply because it breaks the style of all other races, and they were generally not very creative.
A problem with this is that Orcs got their negative attribute in Intelligence. Which means that Orcs are the only race in the whole game that is literally born dumber then everyone else.
When we look at why people think Orcs are black, we have to look at what people think black people are. These are views held both by society in general and by black people themselves.
- If we look at Black Panther and how it was received, it was clear that people praised it because it black and emphasized African culture but from an American perspective. In Black Panther people still lived in mud huts with grass roofs even when they were a high tech society and had access to technology pretty much no one else had. This clearly show that black people think black culture is more tribal then other cultures. They shouldn't had taken so much pride in this movie if it wasn't so.
- When it comes to intelligence, there is a clear divide between African and European Americans. A divide were European Americans always outpreform African Americans in almost every subject including intelligence. It can be many reasons for this, but it being a biological reason can not be excluded (due to that you can not train intelligence) so it is a sore spot. A common people within the African American community is that many blacks think they are dumber then whites, and then don't try to fix it. They cause the problem themselves because they build their own steretype.
- Many people just find that black females are not as attractive as white females. It can be that we are attacted to things that look like ourselves, or something else. But it isn't by chance EC used a elderly black women in their comparison.
- If we look people from Africa have achieved we can't name much that doesn't come from ancient Egypt. Sub-saharan Africa have not created any large cities, no large nations, no great monuments, no great city state or successful rulership, no world changing innovations and so on. What Africa is most well known for is that it is poor, plagued by wars, filled with ruthless warlords, corruption and that some zulu's managed to defeat the British that one time.
So in short. If you just look at general conceptions held by many people with no deep grasp in African culture, history and problems you get.
1. Tribal by nature
2. Low Int
3. Warlike
4. Ugly
All of these traits fall right into what we call Orcs. Orcs are not made these things in mind and they were not meant to represent anyone. People just think they represent black people because people have preconcived ideas about Africa and African culture. We all know the only reason they object to this is because it is a negative thing to be an Orc. They will not have any problem with this if the character is a good guy, they only have issues when "their" race is seen in a negative view. These people identify with these traits, and will only react when those traits are viewed in a negative light. They had no problem with tribal cultures in Black Panther. They have a problem with tribal cultures in Orcs.
Sometimes I wonder how people can be so stupid, then I remember common sense isn't so common any more
Logic is the rarest candy of all, that was suppose to be a funny line, in a satire, how real it was
no, common sense isn't as common as it should. if 75% of the population knows something, it's common sense, cause majority know it. However, you still have to deal with the 25% who don't know.
There is a point it was common?
I died when you listed taxes as a destructive force🤣
It's pretty telling that when they see orcs they think black people... That's actually racist.
I love moral complexity, but sometimes having an evil or at least violent and dangerous species is fun! Zelda is almost all like that, but I love the games! And in videogames enemies are way more necessary and trying to figure out if each bokoblin in a Zelda game was good or bad before fighting it would hurt the gameplay.
Also, good point about them trying to humanize non-humans, but take the humanity from humans.
Also if anything them saying that the player's actions should affect whether ever npc is friendly is unrealistic. In real life I can't just go find Hamas and be like "hey I know you hate my country and want to destroy it, but let's put that beside us and just be friends!" If anything wanting every npcs morality to reflect the players approach to it would make the game feel like a fake world that revolves around the player.
I have more fun discussing Extra Credits´ stupidity with my dad than watching their usual videos.
For me, it start, with videogames should be more expensive, when they should be cheaper, then they said videogames, have little replayability, specially old games in the DLC discussion video, old games have more relayability than modern games, the history videos, become less and less atractive, for me Masha Pasha was the one that kill me i didint care that video, i wanted the one with Cesar, Napolein, the sanish inquisition, but no, they put like five, lets said diverse nations that i couldnt care the less, then come the famous nazi video, i stoped watching much before, but when i head of it, i think it was a joke, it wasnt, then come these gem, extra credits, is dead and gone
When centaurs came up i just knew it... you showed a clip of “monster musume” one of my very guilty pleasures. And no its not a hentai but it is echi and funny as hell!
Ok this is epic
Love that bit at the end with him breaking the code. Just Golden.
EC: name one form of media wear orcs aren’t all evil
Me: *sighs* ......... World of Warcraft
Me: Elder Scrolls.
Me: Shadow of War
Hell, I’d argue 40k orks aren’t evil, but instead a force of nature since the old ones created them to be war and only war. Same with Tolkien orcs,since they are bound to sauron’s will, and if he wasn’t evil, they wouldn’t be evil either.
@@bubonic524 You know, I’d debate that. The orcs are a creation of sauron (or more accurately sauron’s late master) and are bound to his will. In shadow of war, you are instead binding them to your own will, and I’d argue neither talion nor celebrimbor are good. Especially not celebrimbor, he’s arrogant, opportunistic, self absorbed, and a backstabbing bastard. He’ll fall to corruption sooner or later. Talion ended up joining the nazgul as well, so that’s a moot point.
@@comradebusman3 I was mainly talking about Ratbag but thanks for the input.
Not to mention orcs arent even portrayed as the bad guys in every universe. In 40k Orcs spelled with a k so... orks. Aren't inherently evil. They are just bioweapons who evolved to be good at their purpose. Their especially not as evil if you compare them to other races in 40k like dark eldar, chaos, imperium of man.... every single other race in 40k... Basically everyone is evil in 40k if it isn't unspoken then the oh they look evil has a hidden good to it... no one is inherently evil or good. Everyones a very very darkshade of grey and thats why I think 40k has good writing.
Edit: oh no there talking about mah 40k!
In Warcraft, the lore is very explicit that Orcs by nature are not evil. Their society highly value physical strength, but there's nothing innate in Warcraft Orcs' nature that compels them to be bloodlust like 40k Orks. They have females that reproduce with other males like other mammals would. Warcraft Orcs aren't even naturally green, they're naturally brown like Tolkien Orcs (well, a lot browner). Violent, savage, bloodlust, greenskin (and moreso redskin) Orcs are the results of a demon lord's corruption, done to enslave the Orcs to the Burning Legion, which is the actual evil faction of Warcraft.
In Elder Scrolls, Orcs not only aren't violent by nature, they are civilized. They inter-mingle with other species in big cities peacefully and you can pick them as the race of your protagonists.
In Shadowrun, Orks are even more civilized than Elder Scrolls Orcs, being anything from lowly street merchants to police officers to businessmen in suits. They are actually just humans mutated by the Unexplained Genetic Expression.
In Of Orcs and Men, Orcs are the good guys and one of your protagonists is an orc! The human empire wants to enslave the Orcs and the story is all about rebelling against the humans.
The most stereotypical orcs I have seen in video games - in fact - come from Dungeon Keeper, in which the Orcs serve you - the Keeper, a comically-evil character. Dungeon Keeper orcs are played for laugh.
@@aquapendulum Exactly kinda makes you think how the heck did Ec comeup with the idea that all orcs are portrayed as evil when their are so many cases of the contrary
Even in anime, a lot of times orcs are not only not bad they are good.
@@SpecterNeverSpectator well, orcs in games and media from Japan are often pigmen. They have totally different insparations for their orcs.
@@tardigrade8019 there are western pigmen orcs aswell.
This video is more pathetic than the day I lost my castle. Great video, Raven! Keep up the good work!
Don’t worry daubeny, you’ll get your chance when you become a playable character like holden
Imagine that?
@@xxtruedahkneshxx8422 Warden Mk. 3 We Got It Right This Time, Promise
This is probably the best deconstruction of Extra Credits' video I've seen thus far. Also, just sub'd.
Thank you very much! That means a lot. ^^
I always thought orcs were in the “grey” area in most fantasy settings
Extra Credits are Fake Fans.
If there is such thing as a Geek Culture, then fake fans are it's problem.
Orcs have many different interpretations, there are settings where orcs are highly technologically advanced civilized race. Then there's the orks, fighty mushroom people.
Yeah to be honest, Extra Credits have been on a low lately. Their gaming videos tends to express the opposite message than what they are intending, as showcased in this video and that whole video with the whole "normalizing the nazis" stuff, their mythology videos seem to mostly be focused off European mythologies, and lately their history videos are getting kind of narrow as many of them are mostly about American history and not a lot about the rest of the world. Sure they recently made a series about Cleopatra, Julius Caesar, Mark Antony, and the Roman Civil War between them, Saigo Takemori, the Boshin War, and the Meiji Restoration, and Saladin and the 3rd Crusade, but lately it's mainly about American history. I get they want to be more political, but if they want to be diverse, like do more history videos on other cultures/nations. Why is it that the United States is always the focus as of late? Like, what exactly is so special about American history compare to other histories? I never understood that. Like I understand there's forgotten history about African American and other minorities in the United States, but I'm mostly saying it in the more broader sense.
American history is special because they live in it,you yourself never probably bothered with the difference between spanish & french christianity.Another aspect is that they want to disgrace american history by demonising & generalising it.I hope these morons burn like the Notre Dame.They basically make anti-gamer propaganda for the left
9:10 "act on natural inclinations to consume and destroy, why can't Orcs be designed in similar ways"
That's a Tyrannid
Yup. I mentioned that at the end of the video, I think. :)
Oh my....oh my god.... This is...I was shocked to think someone could think a fantasy race of big green brutes could relate to anything to do with real world racism. Just wow!
Just a correction: Orks in Tolkien's legendarium are not inherently Evil. Nothing, in fact, could be so since everything had its start in the will of Eru (God). Not Sauron, not Sauron's boss Morgoth. Tolkien was a Roman Catholic and forgiveness of sin is part of their creed. Also, nothing Evil couid, in fact, create (they lacked the ability of sub-creation as Tolkien put it). So Orks in Middle-Earth aren't in fact inherently Evil nor were they a created race since they were Men (not Elves, in fact) who had worshipped Morgoth in their earliest days in Hildorien. Aa such they were twisted into Orks.
Now Dungeons & Dragons Orks, on the other hand, ARE inherently Evil because Good/Evil (Law/Chaos) are manifest, testable forces of the Multiverse no different than Gravity or Electromagnetism. Orks are the creation of malevolent gods, among them Gruumsh One-Eye, who care not one iota for free will. At its most basic, Evil is a manifestation of the Negative Energy Plane. And Alignment in D&D had its genesis in Poul Anderson's Three Hearts & Three Lions, but picked up and expanded by Michael Moorcock's Elric of Melniboné series. Alignment is SUPPOSED to be on which "side" of the cosmic struggle you're on (its why Alignment Tongues used to exist). Sadly, a lot of people didn't (and still don't) grasp this concept.
Hey, bro, "clankers" is our word. You can have clanka. (Me and the boys in Battlefront 2)
Mandos in Republic Commando: Actually...
On a side note, I’ve never really liked the modern portrayal of Orcs; specifically the World of Warcraft orcs. To me they just look like The Incredible Hulk with dental cosmetics. The Middle Earth orcs, that includes the Uruk-Hai (going by the movie’s depiction), are what I think of orcs because they look more appealing (as appealing as orcs gets) and they have a more sinister presence to them. Plus they aren’t dramatic warlords who talk slowly when delivering speeches!
Thank you for doing this and calling them out Raven Knight. More so when they were trying to do the whole "Orcs equal black people thing." So god damn racist that I want anyone who preaches that to just be canceled.
Raven I always assumed orcs were inspired by the Germanic tribes which laid waste to roman borders, or the Mongolian hordes, what are your thoughts?
Tolkien said in an interview that he designed Orcs to be like the caricatures of Mongolians and barbarians that the Europeans invented in the medieval age. The caricatures were made to look brutish and scary, so he made them that way. It was not meant as a racist thing as many assume.
@@RavenKnightYT Well crap, now I need to buy my friend a beer. I argued germanic hordes he argued mongolian hordes. Great channel by the way, came across it yesterday.
@@RavenKnightYT yup, he very explicitly says his books arent meant to be allegorical.
I find it interesting that they use HYDRA as an example, since we actually do have a character within the organization that didn’t join because they agreed with what HYDRA does. Bob joined HYDRA because they have a good dental plan.
EC, for what regards their main serie(extra credits, about game design) fell from grace when the original team left.
I just want to point out that Skaven aren't the inhumanly evil threat in Warhammer Fantasy. They are *A* inhumanly evil threat in many ways, but have traces of humanity in them, as with every actual faction in Warhammer Fantasy. The most inhuman threats are actually the Chaos Gods, one of which is The Horned Rat, who terrifies the Skaven into the lifestyle he wants them to have for his own glory. The overwhelming majority of Skaven are terrible, sadistic, and morally reprehensible, but that's largely a result of their massively broken and totalitarians society, and it's the structure of their society combined with their religion and great numbers that make them scary more than anything.
I agree with your points in the video, I just had speak up about this particular example you used because the Skaven are fascinating, as the Warhammer Fantasy Orks, and I'd talk about them all day if I didn't have other responsibilities.
The skaven are just great blend of comedically evil and genuine threat
That intro section is actually gold lol
When I saw the xenomorph I laughed my ass off, also reminds me of Prey, the Typhon are different to us in the sense than they lack the neurons that allow us to feel empathy. One of the characters said, "They aren't evil, they just don't know otherwise" or something like that. God this argument is so stupid, it huuuurts
At that point typhons aren't neither villain or anything, they are like animals trying to survive in a foreign enviroment.
@@pifilixxiv3192 which made them such good antagonists
@@titanhail0495 that's true, an antagonist doesn't need to be a "villain", just an opposing force to the protag
The problem is that this "problem" isn't unique to gaming.
So sad to see Extra Credits reach rockbottom... X(
Again.
@@yeraisalgado6146 again?
@@J0hnHenrySNEEDen Because extra credits said in the past that playing as the germans in ww2 shooters turn you into a nazi.
If we follow extra credits design.
An orc, a human, a dwarf, a vampire and an elf sit on a couch.
Orc: hey elf is that a good book?
Elf: yeah its fine.
Vampire: is that coffe good human?
Human: yeah i like it black.
Dwarf: so... You seen the game orc?
Orc: im not really into sport...
Dwarf: oh, okey...
Dwarf: ...
Orc: ...
Human: ...
Vampire: ...
Elf: ...
Orc: should've we like... Do something?
Elf: like what?
Orc: i dunno, fight? War?
Human: ... Nah
Orc: then what should we do?
Vampire: just sit here agreeing with each other i guess.
Orc: this is boring, i wanna fight something.
Human: yeah well to bad you can't be warlike anymore.
Vampire: can i atleast suck someones blood?
Dwarf: nah that represents something evil your race does so no more of that.
Orc: ...
Orc: you know what fuck this noise im gonna go pillage something.
Human: what?! No! You can't do that.
Orc: oh yeah you wanna stop me? Then you gotta fight me, thus giving me exactly what i want.
Human: shit...
Orc: yeah thought so, see you later turds
In the animated movie Hotel Transylvania, Count Dracula refuses to kill Jonathan for fear of setting monsters back but Quasimodo (who is an actual monster in this) actually tries to kill Jonathan anyway
A question to Extra Credits.:
If we're so beyond this generalization and such, then why are people who are only vaguely russian or who are russian civilians with no power to change anything being punished and ostracized and banned and so much to make them suffer for choices from leaders than they can't change?
Best quote: in the natural world there are plenty of destructive species and forces like termites, locusts, hyenas, floods, earthquakes, piranhas and taxes.
TAXES got me real hard
You keep making videos, I know I will keep having fun.
Just throwing this out there... if Tolkien's orcs were coded, it was as Eastern European/German. He described them as "Mongol types", which was a term used in some Allied propaganda from both World Wars
Get em raven get em
-INCREDIBILIS
Infirmus....etiam
When Tolkien made his version of Orcs and Elves, they were more like Angels and Devils. But he did say they could become 'less bad.' But Doctor Who had plenty of evil races, but that's mostly due to them killing/ignoring those who think differently. Dalek Sec wanted Daleks to forget thier barbaric ways and the Cybermen could sometimes through will power ignore thier brainwashing (like the woman who was in charge of Torchwood.) The Weevils aren't exactly evil, just animals.
Your cannibal idea is interesting to me, quite original 🤔
Love the use of the throwing the computer in the dumpster meme. I'll continue watching the video.
Time to watch another great video
Taxes are a force of nature....I would say menace to society but hey you do you
Your profile pic makes your comment sound like a quote from an 17 hundreds book
Extra crdits are now just a sad joke.
11:35
If you're interested in a setting like what you described (a set cultural mortality that's diametrically opposed to our IRL senses) check out Tékumel
Honestly I admire you much more than other people who have covered this controversial video. Mainly because you actually talked about what they had to say in regards to generic evil species. Most people I've seen on the internet only talk about the minor anecdote about black people and orcs. Thing is the orks origin lotr weren't actually based on black people but rather the Mongolian hordes of the Middle ages. That is its own can of worms that I don't want to get into. But I believe is an example of the stereotypical orcs being used to represent black people and that was the movie bright which explicitly Drew parallels to Urban black people to their own orcs. That was really disturbing considering all the unsavory implications and things they said in the lore and about them in the movie. That was an example of an actual bad metaphor being used for race relations. Anyways I think I've rattled on a little bit too much about this point.
Y'know, sometimes the simple "evil" enemy makes the WORLD you've made more interesting. Xenomorphs made the story of Alien have the tension it does. Tyranids show how the Imperium sometimes has a point about "evil" aliens. Orks in the same universe are perfect comedic relief for a grimdark setting.
This is of topick and I almost want to say this is ironic, but I unironically love the hotpot of armours that is your avatar
Oh thank you! It's supposed to be a combination of samurai, knight, and modern armors. :) I like the outcome!
Imagining a "sir, this is a Wendy's" meme to EC and the James guy... But it's "sir, we're running a module".
Y'know, I feel like Matt Krol is the kinda dude who would not only willingly, but HAPPILY join a genestealer cult.
I just can't get over the fact that EC said that nazis are inherently evil when a few seconds ago they talked about how the Imperium of man is depended on the action of the characters in it, when the imperium of man can be easily simplified as SUPER-MEGA-ULTRA-SPACE-NAZIS
It’s all about the perspective they want to shove. The Imperium is built around independent people’s actions and decisions. That’s GOOD! But the Nazi’s are just ALL bad and none had individuality or personal reasons or motives behind what they did. They’re BAD! The script could EASILY be flipped depending on ones perspective. They aren’t objective by any metric
So I wanna add something to this whole discourse that I learned just recently. I play d&d, have for years, and I’ve decided that I’m gonna run a game that is set in the premade setting of Eberron.
I’m reading the books and checking out how the various races are placed in it and found something really funny. In the world of Eberron, orcs are in fact the good guys!
The first major thing they do in the history is SAVE THE PLANET from aliens by using Druidic nature magic! And at the modern point of the lore they’re mostly just hippies who wander around.
Now the reason this is so funny is because of all the whining about how in d&d “all orcs are evil” and from now on I’m just gonna tell them to check out Eberron
You should make a video covering Dark souks.
Dragon Age 1 have you meet a Desire Demon, who charmed a knight. She could do this be the knight had no family and did not want to be alone. You the player can let them leave or kill her, causing the knight to attack.
Mfw I get to the end of Skyrim and Alduin “The World Eater” kills me anyways even though I told everyone alduin is a good guy and it’s racist to hate him
WAKE UP BOYZ! IT'Z TIMEZ FUR FIGHTIN!
3:26, Terry Pratchett wrote a good Orc in Unseen Academicals
I have to disagree with you.
Taxes are evil :(
I never expected to see Monster Musume being shown here but wow...nice
the orcs from tolkien where actually inspired by the unseelie, they where made after olden myths of goblins and twisted fairies, they weren't black people!!
I fucking love how they try to use 40k as an out,but fail miserably because they know nothing about it.
ah 40k, I assume this was the reason of the video, its a trend ive been seeing lately, 40K bad cuz Imperium of Men in fascist, and thus they must defend all other races
Ive even seen people defending Slaneesh, I cant say that with a straight face
tis the comon heretic I'd say
I just want to play my favorite race easier, why these weirdo got to make it about real life racism.. Monster races are more popular and there for there's market incentive to make them easier to play. And also I don't want all orcs in all settings to be good/ neutral, what am I going to do without Warhammer Orcs/Orks which are the orcs that got me into being a fan of orcs in the first place
And I am here with a fan of monster races and throw in some fun with monster girls
the game world raven knight made up sounded really interesting
7:03 Stellaris Players sweating
When I saw orcs in fantasy I only saw them as a unique race that are not representing real races none none of my friends or family members go like “orcs are representative of black people” who does that then when I watched this video now I have my answer.
Those comment at the end were just the sweet icing on the top. 😋
What's wrong is the moralist finger wagging applied to an imaginary monster.
Honestly there is one small point about this topic I have always had an opinion on. And if anyone cares to hear some rando's opinion, read on: I've always found it annoying when a race is made to all have the exact same personality and all are strictly held to a specific alignment (that last is D&D exclusive) while being intended to not be a hive or gestalt entity. Making so many unique races that are not made to be enemies only yet only letting humans have unique personalities among each other always feels like a waste. Orks, ironically, have more character depth than those kinds, because they show their brutal cunning or cunning brutality in different ways.
Yeah I'm definitely compassionate towards the flood from halo trying to wipe all of life in the universe out and the forerunners were wrong to stop them and we shouldn't shoot at them
"No fantasy races should ever generically evil. They should be complex like humans. " EC paraphrase. Thing is, as someone who believes in original sin, I think humans are all thoroughly fallen. We're not as bad as we could be, but we've lost the ability to be truly good without the grace of God. To any potential race of unfallen beings (say like angels), humans would probably seem bit like how Tolkien's orcs seem to us. The paradox is that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. If artists want to make fantasy races that are just like humans with different appearances that's fine. If they want to make fantasy races that are totally different, that's fine too, and these differences can include the degree of falleness (or positively the degree of godliness) because while not resorting to equivocation, we humans have a lot to be grateful for and not much to brag about. Thanks for video, wishing you the best.
Ok that cannibal kingdom game actually sounds fun
Does shadow of war count
9:33 GamesWorkshop: oh nothing *sips*
thanks for this
Ik this is late. But didn't they make that really iffy wow movies with a orc as a protag?
Ah, yes, ALL elves are good... unless you know anything about faery tales, in which case most elves are assholes who will use your life force and toss the husk when they get bored.
What if apollyon beat the samurai champion what will happened?
I wish that extra credits actually saw this and processed this argument, but sadly I doubt it.
I mean, at least in the event of Warhammer orks, they aren't really evil. They were bred to be that way. Fighting and killing is their natural instinct.
31:44 some SERIOUS hunkabonkaladoos
It reminded me a bit a one instance of when i put trust in npc and it hit me back with all might, despite i wanted good. Despite this I still very like that game and today I'm still remembering it very well, despite outdated graphic and stettings. This is my story and the story of Ur--Shak the betrayer.
In the Gothic series, an old RPG created by Phyranya Bites Studio, I was send by the Necromancer in 5th game chapter (I don't remember particulary which one exacly) to meet the lonely Orc, who is not so much aggresive, as his kin from the Ork's City. His name was Ur-Shaak, and he was bannished from the city for a heresy of calling thier Orcish God - the Sleaper a bloodthirsty Demon who wants to kill all Orcs, turn them into unded army and use as his puppets in taking over the world. Of course he was right about this, and when he realised that I want to kill that Demon to, he helped me to get into the city without a need of constant fight by creating the orcish symbol of great warrior - the Ulu-Mulu. I generally was remembering Ur-Shaak very good, and couldn't think of him diffrently then as a firend, despite raging war between Kingdom of Myrtana and Orcs. I tought, that maby, a peacefull option exists.... Oh boy how naive was I.
In the second part of the sereies, Gothic II I was again back in the Colony. It was 4th chapter of game, and I was tasked by one of the besiedged paladins - Orik, to kill orc's Shaman named Hosh-Paak, who was the commander of all orcs, and led the attack on castle. Fight was brutal and full of intense spellcasting (I went as a Mage of the Ring of Fire), but eventually after a few attempts I managed to kill Hosh-Paak and his elte orcish bodyguards. I reported all to the Orik, took my reward and went back to the main quest - killing 4 dragons who were leading the whole invasion. Unluckly i got lost a bit and walked into Ur-Shaak again. He told me that he heared that Hosh-Paak, the leader of Orcs was his menthor, teacher and firend. Ur-Shaak was sure, that he will let him join the invasion, and went to meet him again. In the same moment, the Orcs, have attacked neighbouring Mine, and the defenders were severarly outnumbered, and would for sure been defeated if I didn't stepped in and helped them. It was the first sign that something was a bit fishy, so I decided to go back to the place, where I killed Hosh-Paak.
Ur-Shaak was waiting there for me. He told me that despite being bannished, he was the greatest amongst the Shamans. Due to the Hierarchy among them, Hosh-Paak was the only one outranking him. He wanted to bring me as a gift for him, and "redeeam himself" amongst his kin. But beacuse Hosh-Paak was ded, it cancelled his bannishment, and now he could lead the whole invasion on the Kingdom. This betreyal was shocking for me. Both me and my nameless character were fealing the same. We both wanted blood of that orc. He hovever said that he won't kill me for honor of past time and help with killing the Sleeaper. Nevertheless I still took my fire storm spell and killed that Orc.
What is the point of the story ?
We should not try to reason with somoeone who wants to see our world burn. Even if he is firendly.
*jots down cannibal culture idea* I'm using that.
37:16 that second guy got my attention. ec is probably the type to like that
37:29 and the first guy here got my attention
whats next demons monsters from greek mythology
You know weirdly enough with that how lore about who is friend or foe bit to decide what is what applies to Undertale, though you don't just 'make' friends, it require effort and fighting can still happen. Just amazing how crap the moral argument the Extra Credit was.
hell even Undertale gives you times where you have no choice BUT to fight, such as against Flowey and Asgore
31:38 Look at that nice and prideful pair of mama milkies
If some things come through a portal then I'll be one of the first to keep the twits away from what ever comes out.