Tone King Sky King Returns | Have Tone King Redeemed Themselves?
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- čas přidán 17. 09. 2023
- This troubled amp seems to be on its way to a Happy Ever After.
I do hope so, and I applaud Tone King for their customer service, if not for all aspects of the design.
I calls 'em like I sees 'em. - Hudba
Its great that Tone King stood behind this amp, not only to correct their design, but to take care of their customers! Sadly, that is not commonplace these days. Kudos!
Nice work too, Lyle!
Kudos to Tone King for addressing issues brought to their attention (looking at you Fender HRD team) in a new revision. Great stiff, Lyle! Thanks for sharing!
Wow, they replaced the board and paid for the labor to change it out. That is unheard of these days and much respect to Tone King for taking care of the customer and standing behind the product.
I can't expect that people won't make mistakes, but it's the response to those mistakes that I try to judge by.
They did the right thing here, hopefully the problem is cured and it'll sound great.
I am glad to hear that BAD / Tone King did right by your customer, Lyle.
Thanks Lyle! Glad to hear they stepped up, made corrections, and sent the upgrade to you. THAT is how to build a good reputation.
I agree. Lyle, those traces are still close, but it is an improvement. You would think if they revised the board for this problem, they would have reviewed and evaluated the revision. But way to go, Tone King. Nice to see a company that cares about customers.
Good on BAD for fixing this and taking care of the customer. Wish I could say the same of Marshall with my TSL. But I got it for a steal at the pawn shop and it was easy enough to swap the board, so I can’t complain too much. Thanks Lyle for keeping these guys honest, at least a few of them get it.
Nice customer service.
I think all current electronics CAD tools that allow you to create a logical schematic then convert it to a PCB design for delivery to a PCB vendor have DOZENS of configuration preferences that allow turn radiuus, trace width, trace separation distances, etc. to be customized (while starting with "best practice" values as defaults). That allows the human designer to generate probably 75% of the final design automatically, tweak a few things, have it completed up to about the 98% level then have the human tweak final details. It sounds like some engineers at some firms are not questioning the spacing and assignments made automatically across the entire board. The trace under that resistor looks like a prime example -- it probably satisfied separation rules but a human looking at it and knowing the trace carrierd high voltage would have said "center it and space it out." The design looks so impressive and technically passes the automated validations that they assume it's good without paying attention to these types of issues. There is still a ton of art that has to go into these -- art based on a pretty detailed understanding of legacy design pitfalls.
Earlier this year i had a usage Q. about my Tone King Iron Man. i found myself quickly talking with an owner and the designer of said product! My questions were patiently answered and we even kicked the poop a bit about an an amp of theirs i have been interested in for some time and basically gear in general. you will find service like that rarely anymore.
Thank you for bringing the issue to the forefront so that we can all benefit from better built amps!
lovely overdrive sound
Cool sounding amp!
I love these videos and he's even been kind enough to reply to my questions. I'm UK based and my profession has nothing to do with this but I did do higher physics as an entry requirement for uni which gives me just enough knowledge to understand a fair amount of what he said but no where near enough that I could tell myself from just looking.
I had a Sky King made when Bartel was still designing and associated with the brand, and it was an amazing amp, with gorgeous tones. It’s a shame that it had growing pains but good for them for updating the board. If you have a chance to play through one at volume it’ll put a big smile on your face. I lived on the lead channel, gain on 10 and tone and mid-bite on 5 and controlled it from the guitar, totally old-school. Whee!
The lead channel on these is very underestimated! I used the clean for a very long time mostly. Kinda didn’t care too much for the lead. But once I got in a band mix and compared it to say a Marshall in a Box style pedal…wow it’s a lot better and rips. Especially if you like the Marshall Super Lead type sounds at crunch gain. It’s not a chugger, but if playing lead or stuff like Queens of The Stone Age it nails those tones with zero pedals.
I also use the lead as a way to reverse my pedal order so I have my Boss CE-2w Waza Chorus going into distortion Vs the usual way.
So my lead side is kind of my dirty rhythm, and also my shoegaze channel. The amp is great at classic stuff, but as an Indie type artist it fits the bill very well for me! The Breeders are currently using an Imperial MK2 on tour, and it sounds killer. I also believe I spotted them with a Bartel Roseland on stage at Austin City Limits as an alternative or at least the extension cab.
Hey guys, just wanted to update from just a normal customer here, that had issues with the Rev D board on a 5 month old amp. Tone King/Bad are going to replace my Rev D with the Rev E. I sent my info over to Sweetwater, and they also used this video to show what I was talking about. Took 5 business days…They said send it on over, and all is taken care of under warranty!
Shout out to Psionic for the help figuring this out, and showing what was done and solved here. Just waiting on the shipping label from BAD/TK, and will be sending it to them on Sunday. So hats off to BAD/TK for doing it right. As well as Sweetwater holding up to the 2 year gear guarantee and doing a lot of the work on my end. It’s not just PR, they are taking care of the customer I’m happy to say! 😊
This is gratifying to read. Thanks for letting us know!
@@PsionicAudiojust like to update that BAD back pedaled on me a bit. A lot of info sent to them, got lost in email it seemed with Sweetwater. The guy that got the amp in, had no idea what to do. He called me and told him what was told to me, emails Fwd ect.
He said sure no issue..speaker and the board. Two months of silence went until last Monday. They said it was fixed and shipping it. Before I could email back or call, they shipped it.
BAD is claiming the issue in this video being the ground plane in the power section, was fixed on later Rev D models now. And that the Rev E model included the fix on the later Rev D board, but did a new revision on minor placement and new parts/chain supply of parts they can use.
So I’m very confused if that Rev E and later Rev D they claimed, included a board without grounding in the power tube section. Either it’s true or it’s not.
I don’t expect a reply, but it was too personal to post on here. I sent an email instead, given they had a lot to say about the video here, and also changes and why. Some of it may be truly legit, and some I’m not smart enough to know if it’s a false claim. Initial contact was they send me the new board right away, or send to them. Sending to them took a turn of miscommunication.
Amp is back tomorrow, where they fixed the top where if not screwed down all the way it buzzes, they fixed the speaker they said, and swapped a reverb tube for buzz. Sweetwater is still trying to work it out with me. As it was promised a Rev E, given I bought the amp right before production. No one wants to invest in such an expensive amp, only to have the thing the components sit on be the issue. Caps can be replaced, a PCB board that increases failures by a wide margin can’t easily be swapped if not readily available like Marshall or Fender. Also it was like my 3rd Rev D that finally didn’t blow a fuse, or a tube. So very puzzling to how things work over there. I try to be fare and nice, but never knew how weird the amp industry could get.
Nice response from the company. Super rare
Those things sound glorious!
Holy crap would I love to have you near me to service my gear!!!
Super cool to see the change!
I think I may have a problem. I have become addicted to these videos.
Nice Lyle. Ounces equal pounds, and pounds equal pain, as they used to say in the Marines.
Very educational
I have NEVER had any autoroute program make a PCB design that I found satisfactory without going in behind it and making some changes.
Tone King would be wise to improve future designs based on your critique...
Wow after watching this video, I now why high end amplification costs so much!!
It's always good to hear about great customer service from a company. I had a similar experience with Dave Smith Instruments who sent me a free output PCB when my Prophet 08 went tumbling to the floor, shipped from the US to the UK at zero expense. That's where customer loyalty is born.
As for the amp PCB, lazy use of autorouters is the bane of PCB design. Maybe the designers weren't accustomed to designing for high voltages? Just guessing but some designers are more familiar with designing for digital and small signal circuits and those don't tend to develop arcs very often!
Yeah, I don’t think most EEs these days get this stuff in schools.
I mean, I can’t design/build CPUs etc. It’s just a very different area.
"Must be a King..."
"Why?"
Love happy endings! Really glad to see this outcome - too bad that board still made it into the wild. Deranged engineers, lying in cubicles, distributing PCBs is no basis for a system of warranty repair 😆
Thanks Dennis!
I did a segment on this sort of thing on one of the guitar forums. It is such a shame that we have the technology to make absolutely killer PCB's, but 99% of vendors continue to use the old, basic tech, and opt for the more " aesthetic " and inferior PCB layout software options. I.E. cheaper, and not as technically advanced. B.A.D is bad for the guitar industry if you ask me. Good on them for taking care of it, but realistically, it should never have been a problem to begin with. Tone King is not a Boutique amp company, it is obviously built to a bottom line. If they were truly a " Boutique " company, this amp would have been tested to the degree that the only failure would be from components, not the thing that holds them...
These are among the most expensive new amps out there. I am quite surprised they have had so many issues, but at least they do the revisions I guess. These companies should use this Psionic bloke as a consultant looking at prototypes and their potential failure points and possible improvements etc. Money well spent probably, because it could save them a small fortune on warranty repairs and revisions etc.
I sent mine in with the word my board would be replaced. I am now told the later Rev D models had the ground plain issue resolved…this is in later Rev D boards they identified on serial number batch. I’m not sure how true this is, without having it inspected now.
They said the Rev E had nothing to do with these issues. And that it was more about new stock components they had to sub, and work with going forward. They claim they carried over the late Rev D fix to the new Rev E.
I’m not sure if they can pull a Rev D board at the end of production, same placement and get a new board…that’s a tall order Vs a single component.
So getting it back tomorrow and suppose to test. I’m still working with my vendor…it would of been super easy for them to replace the board, or at least took a picture with detailed info showing proof the fixed later Rev D.
It’s a lot to deal with in a 6 month amp! Longevity is my concern here! You can replace a component easily with an amp tech. But if the components the board is on, has the issue..that’s not good at all and impossible to keep it going for years to come.
TK/BAD: why not send your new amp for Psionic’s review esp since there have been so many design flaws on previous versions? While they sound great in CZcams demos I won’t truly trust them until they’ve had some diagnosing first.
will tk be retro fitting all the new amps leaving the factory with this improved board?
You ever get an imperial mkii on the bench ?? Curious how those stack up in your opinion.
Hello sir! hope all is well. I am trying to get into building amps using Hoffman amp parts. any tips on where to start? I really want to start from ground zero and ACTUALLY know what every thing is.
If this is a B- board then what on earth is an A or an A+ ... because this gear looks 100x more solid than just about anything I've ever seen inside a guitar amp. Epic video I learned plenty and enjoyed it thank you.
PTP wired hiwatt i guess? I agree that a b- is maybe a bit harsh, the only visible issue being traces that were routed millimetres off is maybe a bit harsh
On those resistors close to the ground trace, a drop of conformal coat on the solder connections would prevent any arcing right?
The board is already coated. But coating is no substitute for distance.
I find most modern amplifier builds disappointing. I worked for Hallmark Printed Circuits for about a year back in the 80s and these are rookie mistakes. We are SO MANY YEARS into building, yet these issues are still with us. Honestly, I wouldn't trust any modern PCBOARD amplifier. The design errors on this TK are unacceptable. I'm interesting in everyone's opinion on what would be a desert island combo build??
I need a fender clean with reverb and would like gain enough to play 80s music. That combo will be in my second home way south in Mexico so no chance of local repair. Just tubes.
I am currently looking into the Bartel Starwood or Roseland. Within reason cost is not an issue under $8k.
Rev E -- the fifth time is the charm !
So Leo Fender had it right the 1st time around.I’m not selling my ‘72 Deluxe or Super for any of theses new amps over $2000.
The tan-brown glue holding the cables to the board (so the wires wont flex and break) looks suspiciously like the disastrous SonyBond adhesive of the 1980's that becomes conductive and corrosive, especially with exposure to heat. I've seen similar glue go bad in more modern equipment, corroding foils and component leads. Bad idea! There's a white silicone like rubbery glue I've seen used on some equipment that I have never had to remove, and it doesn't seem to cause any conduction or corrosion problems; but every other glue type Ive seen used on circuit boards can and often does cause corrosion (other than hot glue, which doesnt cause corrosion but adheres very poorly).
Ah yes. Basic HV PCB Creepage and Clearance requirements are really important for reliability and safety. You understand this really well. But alas, it's often not interesting for some designers. It is good of you to point out things that customers and mfr's should know. I dread AI PCB auto routing technology.
It’s likely there are lots of software programs that could have validated and flagged this issue in the design phase if the designer bothered. A board like this is very simple in today’s world. Most complicated boards and circuits would get checked by software.
? Why do most companies install the tubes on bottom of pc board,! I would think above board ( top ). For better heat dissipation. Just wondering.
😎👍
Any high end product company will do (has to) that and will take care of you because they won't stay high end if they don't stand behind their product. From amps, to guitars to optics to tools. They can't afford to not take care of the customer.
Suhr, Friedman, Diezel, Gibson Custom Shop, ESP Custom Shop, Accuracy International, Tangent Theta. I can go on and on, but anything costing north of $3k, they know what happens if they screw around.
In the music world, Suhr is above most of them. Not only for their service, but their high quality parts. I also had a Friedman BE100 Deluxe take a nap on me and it was taken care of quickly and to my satisfaction.
What people don't realize is that after the plandemic and all the face diaper zombies, supplies have been very difficult to come by and quality supplies even more. These companies are still doing what they have to do to take care of the customer. The average person wouldn't believe the price of steel these days let alone electronic components and logistics.
Like your black cutting mat, which one is it? I'd like to have one.
I got it at an art center but most cutting mat vendors sell green and black.
What's your thoughts on the impedance selector switch? It strikes me as rather small for the amount of current going though it for long-term reliability.
It would be, but it's actually triggering a relay that does the actual impedance switching. So more than fine.
@@PsionicAudio A relay? That works, but seems unnecessarily complicated. But I'm sure they know their customers and what they want.
Wow. BAD TK, doin right by their customers and techs. That’s wonderful.
It would have been more wonderful if it had been designed properly in the first place.
@@DeltaJazzUK well yeah obviously lol
All tube sockets overheat and should be steel panel mounted, not on pcb. that being said I understand manufacturing constraints, near all modern amps are pcb socketed, even USA Fender. There should be an aluminum heatsink next to the power tubes to help with dissipating heat. Just a piece of flat aluminum bent to an L and the same height as the power tubes and riveted to the chassis close to the power tubes. i've done this mod to many amps and all the issues stopped from there on. it stops the solder from melting, because there is no thermal mass on the tube sockets when PCB mounted, something prescribed on original Octal sockets if you read the original ancient texts on it, hence why panel mounted. pcb mount tubes also tend to not last as long as they run way hotter, so they are usually run way underspec so far less warmth unless your run them flat out. I bet that V+ would be able to go quite a bit more so it could hit warmth at lower volumes if the tube sockets were panel mounted and heatsinked. but I do like the Tone Kings. They're the only amp company who has achieved a modern ac30 tone apart from the original vintage JMI ac30 that I like.
Great episode, Lyle. You're a bit hoarse, but nevertheless concise.
Have you seen many, or similar issues with the hand wired tone king sky kings (the Mark Bartel era versions)?
No, Bartel knows all this stuff. Mark does excellent work.
@@PsionicAudio thank you! I have one of those versions from 2014 and bought it as my dream amp. It’s been solid but was curious. Mark is a great guy….been lusting after one of his Bartel’s.
Maybe rhetorical, but is this just bad thinking on BAD's part (slight pun intended)?
Have the board been changes since Mark Bartel sold the brand? There is a recent video where Lee Anderton mentioned he had questioned Mark about the PCB’s and Mark was confident that if designed correctly and sourced from the right company then PCB’s were not an issue. It seems in this instance that is not correct. Either Mark was wrong or changes were made after he sold the brand. Anyone have any insight into this?
The circuit is Mark’s, the board layout is not. Mark is correct, but this was an example of how even a good circuit can be undermined by poor board design.
IIRC, they were hand-wired when Bartel was associated with the company. He’s a stickler for quality and reliability. My amp tech was really impressed by the construction of my Sky King when I took it in and had NOS tubes put in it. I sometimes wish I’d kept it because it sounded amazing, but it was too heavy and big and overpowered for the places I was using it in.
@@8sigreg Thankyou and I always thought they were handwired in Mark’s day. Lee’s comments ref talking to Mark are a bit confusing
EEs have a saying: NEVER TRUST THE AUTOROUTER 😆
Also, you should always make sure to populate your design rules correctly. If you do that and run your DRC, it’ll catch those clearance issues that otherwise slip by visual inspection.
Surely it should be "Do Tone King redeem themselves"? If you are going to pluralise them, you need to be consistent.
You are absolutely correct.
And don't call me Shirley.
@@PsionicAudio 😉
have is correct as well for a different reason. the redemption belongs to Tone King.
How many Tone Kings are there?
@@DeltaJazzUK if a would Chuck could Chuck Norris.
You don’t know squat about Tone King!
Tone king is garbage since Mark Bartel had to sell. He got screwed.