342: Copper bullets in the 243 Winchester?
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- čas přidán 31. 07. 2024
- Welcome to the Ron Spomer Outdoors Podcast! Well, how effective are high shoulder shots for taking the game? And what about the 358 Norma Magnum? Plus, are copper bullets any good in the 243 Winchester? We're going to answer those questions and a lot more on this episode of Ron Spomer Outdoors Podcast.
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Who is Ron Spomer
For 44 years I’ve had the good fortune to photograph and write about my passion - the outdoor life. Wild creatures and wild places have always stirred me - from the first flushing pheasant that frightened me out of my socks in grandpa’s cornfield to the last whitetail that dismissed me with a wag of its tail. In my attempts to connect with this natural wonder, to become an integral part of our ecosystem and capture a bit of its mystery, I’ve photographed, hiked, hunted, birded, and fished across much of this planet. I've seen the beauty that everyone should see, survived adventures that everyone should experience. I may not have climbed the highest mountains, canoed the wildest rivers, caught the largest fish or shot the biggest bucks, but I’ve tried. Perhaps you have, too. And that’s the essential thing. Being out there, an active participant in our outdoor world.
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Disclaimer
All loading, handloading, gunsmithing, shooting and associated activities and demonstrations depicted in our videos are conducted by trained, certified, professional gun handlers, instructors, and shooters for instructional and entertainment purposes only with emphasis on safety and responsible gun handling. Always check at least 3 industry handloading manuals for handloading data, 2 or 3 online ballistic calculators for ballistic data. Do not modify any cartridge or firearm beyond what the manufacturer recommends. Do not attempt to duplicate, mimic, or replicate anything you see in our videos. Firearms, ammunition, and constituent parts can be extremely dangerous if not used safely.
Hi Ron, here in Australia, we drive on the right side of the car, (yes I mean both) the down side to Australia and driving is the wife sees the gauge doing 5-10 KMPH faster than we are travelling so we are constantly being accused of speeding! How great it would be to get away with driving 10ks over without the wife noticing. Lucky you!
I have never had parallax explained so well(read simply). thank you!
I had to stop and comment right away. I’m from East Texas and my family always had leases out west and northwest Texas for quail hunting. Up until a few years ago I had spent more time quail hunting than anything else. We absolutely loved it. We always had pointers and a couple of Brittneys toward the end. There’s almost never a dull moment walking through fields and mesquite trees and cactus. Oh man, I miss it.
Ron, you are always such a gentleman on your podcast
Ron is the antithesis of Ornery Old Bastard.
He seems like a nice fellow to sit down with over a beer or two.
Ron. Bravo on the parallax analogy. I now have an explanation for dad who is 80 in a language we both understand.
I shoot 80 grain copper bullets in my 243 and have never had a deer make it past 50 yds! Most fall in their tracks! Most shots inside 150 yds.
When I started hunting in the 90’s, I started with a Ruger SS .243. I got into hand loading & used Barnes 90gr Tsx to give the small gun a boost. It was a great deer rifle & that load worked great.
A foam ear plug in the end of the muzzle also works well in a variety of different caliber sizes to keep water and debris out.
I got my 7mm book today! Thanks Ron 👍🏼😁
Great book! Got is as a present from my wife, good to see hat the old Germans 7x57 and 7x64 still are performing well compared to the newer Americans😂
Ron , love your videos and smiling positive manner. Loved your very understandable explanation of parallax!!!
And another great video! Thank you!!
Yeah Ron, love you work, and love how you are open to change your mind and give things a new look. Like your race to the bottom video. I love those little low recoil cartridges.
You were my vote Ron.
Tommy here. Garret Cartridge did an interesting test on penetration with the 45/70 and the 458 win mag. The old and slow had more penetration. Weird but I’ve never recovered a bullet yet and everything was DRT one shot.
Hey Ron, Interesting video! As to the 35 caliber cartridges available that I am familiar with 35 Remington, 358 Winchester, 35 Whelen and 358 Norma Magnum, the Norma is the hottest. Generally across the board starting with the 35 Remington at the bottom each will shoot equal weight bullets about 250 fps faster as you go up the ladder with the Norma pushing a 250 grain bullet at 2800 fps. Of course I don’t know anyone loading a 250 grain bullet in the 35 Remington. I haven’t found any loading data for the Norma with anything heavier than 250 grain. Woodleigh and another company I can’t remember make 286 and 310 grain .358 diameter bullets for use on dangerous game in the 35 Whelen which can equal or exceed the 9.3x62. The 358 Norma might do a little bit better with those bullets.
As to the gentleman asking why people want to speed up the 45-70, Paul you are too polite. I’m calling BS on this one. The original velocity for the 45-70 405 grain black powder load in the Trapdoor Springfield with the 70 grain powder charge was supposed to be about 1365 fps. I have sometimes been able to knock over the 500 meter rams in Black Powder Cartridge Silhouette shooting but that does not mean the 45-70 is a good deer or other large game cartridge for most shooters. The gentleman was obviously reading the clickbait headline from a publication called “Long Range Rifle Fire” at www.researchpress.co.uk. Their masthead says Historical Firearms, Long Range Target Shooting and Military History. There was a test in 1879 at somewhere called Sandy Hook but the measured distance was 2500 yards (1.4 miles) but not two miles. The shooter sat at a bench with a special rest setup and sights raised a long way. The article does not give what the elevation angle might have been. The article states that the bullet hit “well inside a six foot diameter circle fifteen seconds after the shot was fired”. That’s hardly an indicator that the 45-70 is a good cartridge for any sort of long range hunting. Even 500 yards was a long shot for the buffalo hunters, who really used more 50-70 and 45-90 cartridges than the 45-70.
The reason to increase the velocity of the 45-70 is to increase the effective range. Just for jollies I plugged in a 405 grain bullet with a BC of .200 at 1365 fps into the same ballistic calculator that you use. I set the elevation at 30 degrees. That calculator would only accept a 2000 yard maximum with steps of 100 yard. Zero range was somewhere around 1175 yards. At 2000 yards that bullets was only moving at 250 fps with 56 ft pounds of remaining kinetic energy.The drop numbers were astronomical. When set at a reasonable sight in dead on at 150 yards it’s running 1062 fps with 1013 ft lbs. At 300 yards velocity is down to 915 fps with 753 ft lbs and drop of almost six ft. At 500 yards the velocity is down to 792 fps with 564 ft pounds remaining energy which is probably ok for thin skinned deer but only about 1/3 what seems to be the consensus for a minimum for clean kills on elk or similar sized game. If you want to be an ethical hunter using 45-70 at original load velocity on anything other than thin skinned deer you better keep your ranges fairly short. Happy hunting boys and girls!😊
Thank you for the honorable mention. By lost I did mean Maggie passed away. But we did end up getting her little full brother from the same parents. His name is Mack and he's just 2 months old now. He's just like Maggie in every way and fit in with our family like a nickel case in a polished chamber. Thank you to the folks who gave best wishes on that comment also, they were nice to read during that rough time. 🐕
Thank you Mr. Spomer, your videos are so easy to listen to along with your wealth of knowledge to inform and entertain!
I love the 243 winchester and I am working up loads with all copper bullets, and I picked up a new remington 700 with the 5r rifling, it also has a 1:8 twist so can maybe squeeze out a bit more weight with the choices in all copper bullets!
Got my book a few weeks ago Ron, It’s awesome.
Yes, I've been using prescription shooting glasses from Randolph Engineering (RE Ranger) for about two decades.
The high shoulder shots ruin more meat most of the time but that being said it will a lot of the time will drop the game in its tracks and I think on elk it’s a better shot to take a lot of times to anchor them from running far! 60+ years hunting collecting and reloading and just my observation on the many game animals I have taken as well as my 3 sons my 3 in laws and nephews
awesome explanation on paralax,
Ron, you should really give the Butt Out ll tool a try. It really simplifies that part of the field dressing process. Just remember to carry some string/twine for tying off before making the severing cut. Pardon the pun, but this tool is slick as s*#t.
Great job with the parallax. I just made 40 but my first 3 vehicles had this old speedometer. And I never thought to use that to teach folks I shoot with. And they are mostly older than I so they will no doubt relate to that. 👍🏻
I have a 358 Norma Mag myself!!!
I have wanted one since "discovering" it as a young man.
I have always been drawn to the 35's and they are my favorite!!
Mine is a Winchester 70 rebored to 358. It has a 24" Bbl and I can reach north of 2850fps with a 250 Oryx bullet. Its a thumper!! I do wish makers (more of them) would offer 275/280g. I have cast to 310g but dont push them as hard. 310's @ 2200 carry quite a THUMP!!!
I would love more 35 Cal Videos!
I just got thru watching a 20 film on the Burris Scope Company factory. They go into detail on how up to ten lenses (in front of and behind the cross hairs) are moved so parallex isn't an issue. Thanks Ron👍👍
Good information I enjoy your video thanks Ron
I've been using the high shoulder shot on deer for about three years now and have had "drop in the tracks" kills thus far. I hunt mostly thick cover from tree stands and have not needed to follow a blood trail in a while. Most of my shots are well under 100 yards.
Good explanation of parallax, also why it is good to have a good fit to the stock so your eye naturally lines up with the centre of the scope.
Ordered a copy of the 7mm book! Thanks for a great channel with great information! Bought an old unused ruger no1 in 243 the other day. Shot one ragged hole with 3 bullets at 100meters with sakos 80grain blade copper bullet. Awsome rifle!
Congrats on that rifle, Peter. And thanks for the book purchase!
Take your wife and show her off on the red carpet! Enjoy yourselves! You and the missus work so hard! 😊
Great analogy on Parallax Ron, got to remember that one! Keep up the great work, I enjoy your videos immensely.
Doug - Penticton, B.C.
PS I just ordered a McGown prefit in 6BR Norma. I’m looking forward to seeing what I can do with that.
;-) Just received my copy of AMMUNITION, DEMYSTIFIED, thank you for the suggestion Ron. Now waiting on a delivery service to drop off my copy of 7MM.
Hey Ronnie (or Ronnie's wife)
Let's hear more about the 25cal and if you know of anything in the pipeline for them longer bullets, fast twist barels or new 25cal cartridges???
Cheers Ben🇦🇺
Ron, a good optometrist should be able to hook you up with a set of prescription safety rated glasses with proper coatings for range and field use! As far as that "high shoulder shot" it's a common aiming point for hunting whitetail in Appalachia shots are within 250 yards, open sights, so if goes a inch high its a spine shot (instance drop) on target or an inch low, you take out the front shoulder (the buck drops within 5 yards) 3inch low it's into the boiler room. It's a forgiving shot location if you bring a good cartridge and bullet. Congratulations on the book!
I use a bota bag for water. I can squeeze out the air to minimize sloshing sounds and it conforms to other items in my pack to be more compact.
I’ve seen man “hump” shot on moose go bad many times because the hump is just long segments of bone that come off the spine . The spine is actually below the hump . I’ve used the high shoulder on elk with my 35 Whelen when that’s the only shot I have in the thick stuff , it certainly drops them fast but a person does need to know some anatomy of the game they are shooting
Not only did I want to make this comment, but I hunt with a 35 Whelen. Hello internet twin!
I have a .308 Norma Mag. Sweet round
Hi RON HAPPY NEW YEAR FOR U AND YOUR FAMILY,MY MENTOR HAS A MARLIN 4570 HIS LOAD IS 405 GR AT 1700FPS TWO TIMES IN MY PRESENT DID 1 1/2 AT 200 YADS ON THE 358 CAL MY WHELEN IS PASS 2800 FPS WITH 225 GR ACC,BALISTIC TIP,AND SPEER,DON T NEED A 338 WM AND THE NORMA MAG 358 IS A BEAST.
Ron, I love your content, so thank you for it! I would love to see your shooting comparisons of .243 Winchester, 308, and 7mm-08 at short (sub 100 yards) and long distance (250 yards or less as those are my longest comfortable shots in my area). Thanks and hope you continue to do well.
Concerning scoped rifles, having a proper fitting length of pull and a good solid "cheek weld" is most important to get consistency besides a solid mount and scope mechanisms and the way they function.
.45-70 405 grain... Prairie Mortor
My wife has a savage axix youth rifle and shoots hornady gmx 80grain that shoots .5" 5 shot groups all day ! Maybe I got lucky it's amazing
With 6mm Creedmoor gaining in popularity, i think it'd be a better bet than 243 for a new hunter. Faster twist, tighter chamber tolerances, more efficiency. With copper being longer for the same weight, that extra twist would really be helpful
Tolerances or clearances?
My apologies for saying Paul instead of Ron in my first Comment. I had probably just read about Paul Harrell having retire from his channel.
243 Weatherby now has twist rate of 1 to 7.5 same for 6.5 cm.
I’m very interested in a 35 cal discussion. 30s so popular and always seem to kill their 35 cal cousins. 3030 and 35 rem. 308 and 358. 3006 and 35 whelen. For 0-200 meter shots, does the 35 provide a better blood trail? More efficient short barrel performance? Lethality? Etc.
I'm also very interested in that discussion. I hope he adds that one towards the top of the list!
Ron you deserve to win a Gundy. However this year due to circumstances I think you should defer to Paul Harrell.
Sad news about Paul.
Heck, I'd defer to Paul every year. He's amazing.
Hi Ron coming to you from the western state of New Mexico. Hey I got something for you but who knows a wildcat is probably already working on it. 25, why can't we get the 300 blackout case and neck it down to 25cal? You want to talk about a fun gun.
I recently found a deal on some ammo that was "lead free" and I assumed that meant copper. Well it showed up and it is actually tin on the inside with a nickel jacket from Norma. Started looking at Norma's options and it seems they are using nickel jackets on some copper bullets as well as these tin bullets. Any experience or thoughts on these Ron?
When you do that video on .35 caliber loads, I'd like to hear your thoughts on .35 Remington! Maybe if more people talk about it, it will come back to popularity.
Unfortunately the new 360 Buckhammer has similar if not better ballistics and can be used in all the straight walled states. It uses the exact same 200 gr Core-lokt bullet in its initial loading as well as offering a 180 gr. I can’t see a company making a rifle in .35 Remington. If Ruger/Marlin new 336 receiver/ bolt assembly can handle the pressure it will be simple for them to just produce a barrel chambered in 360 Buckhammer and put on as the Buckhammer is based on the 30-30 cartridge blown out and cut down.😊
@@brettcase4129 it's actually rather fortunate that the new Buckhammer is using the same bullet, as Remington says it means more .35 Rem ammo coming in the future. Hornady still makes good .35 Rem ammo, so does Buffalo Bore. Not everyone is on board with the new straight wall craze, and plenty of things get made all the time just because people like them, not only because it's "best" or "new." My hope is the the .35 Rem fans start speaking up more, because the 336 is already so nostalgic for so many, and was extremely popular in .35 Rem. Go to any video promoting the new 336, and somebody is in the comments asking for .35 Rem. And no, it's not *always* me lol. I think they would sell enough of them to make it worthwhile.
@@jeremywilson15147 I’ve been hunting with my old 336 RC for over 40 years now, can’t tell you how many deer I’ve shot with it. My son in law just went t out and bought me 80 empty brass cases. I hate to see it die. I’m pretty sure it won’t as there are a lot of rifles still out there. But ammo cost and availability are still a huge problem. Remington is pushing their production towards the 360 Buckhammer in the 35 class. I’ve always used the 200gr Core-Lokt but I’m going to give the hornady 200gr Ftx a try on my hand loads.
@@brettcase4129 I just finished cleaning my first deer ever, shot today with the FTX. It seemed to me to do a good job, she didn't go very far at all.
@@jeremywilson15147 Congratulations, I’ve heard lots of good things about that bullet.
“City clothes”
😂😂😂
Finger cots make excellent muzzle covers.
12:05 I can not find some video about it on yt, can you give some sample? Maybe my search words are wrong...
Varment, deer cartridge 243 caliber out to 300 yards. A better caliber would be 25-06. Recoil stays low, energy stays higher.
I voted for you a month ago 👍
Adam from whoteewho will be there to. He made the top 5 again this year.
Sorry chap , I think You mean Adam .
@@richarddixon7276 you are right . I miss text his name again. My apologies.
@@Russ1tonram No problem , My daft fingers often catch the wrong keys , and I end spwllong gobldegoop , it's so easily done , but if You scroll over the three little dot to the right of You comment You should be able to edit Your post and correct the mistake if You want to , I often have to do that My self . No body's perfect .Shoot Straight stay Safe & Stay Well.
The 45-70 can penetrate completely through an animal, even on the second or third skip.
Ron, I ordered 2 pre-order signed copies and unfortunately only had one shipped, your website does not have a "support" email to help, I've submitted "questions to ron" about the issue with no response.
Odd, never noticed there wasn’t a customer support contact. Hope you can get it straightened out.
Hi @NELLY-jg2rx . Thank you for bringing this to my attention. I'm sorry for the delay in responding and your missing book. We realized several people have been accidentally using our "Podcast Question" form to ask about products and services which is why we missed your email. That is our mistake for not making things clearer on our website. We are currently revamping the site to make things more transparent. Also, we are searching for all the emails related to books on that form. You should be receiving an email shortly regarding your missing book. Thanks for following up here, and as always hunt honest and shoot straight.
@@RonSpomerOutdoors-Podcast Thank you Ron, I know you are great folks and never worried about getting it straightened out, just wanted to bring it to your attention, I look forward to your email sir. Take care.
Had a buddy shoot a 243 in a 30-06 on accident once. Sounded weird and the brass was blown out to the 30-06 chamber.
He definitely wouldn't be my shooting buddy no more.
In the military we used unlubricated condoms to place over the muzzle of our rifles. I still use that today when hunting in the rain. Lol
Bump
Ron will the 85 grain copper be ok out of a Rossi single shot .243?
No reason why not, try it out and see if the combination will shoot
I believe it should.
@@RonSpomerOutdoors I’m gonna get my 9yr old into shooting this year and wanted to try some copper rounds for the Rossi .243 I have.
80gn ttsx is deadly from my .243 hornady superformance powder has a good fast load for this projectile
The 85gr Barnes is my go to 243 bullet. Hand loads get me 3300fps. A plus is the Sierra Game Kings shoot to the same point of impact. No sense wasting a Barnes on a coyote!
The questioner should keep in mind that while group sizes do indeed work as described, the trajectory of a given load is not a direct relationship in terms of set distances - it varies with the velocity, bullet weight, b.c., etc.
I am forced to use nonlead bullets for hunting in my state, I have found in most of the calibers that I use they are not near as accurate. I have also found expansion sucks with them in all brands.
That's odd, Mike. My experience has been just the opposite. Stellar accuracy with almost all modern, all-copper, banded (grooved) bullets, consistent 2X or better expansion, high weight retention and deep penetration. One thing to try is cleaning any fouled barrel down to bare metal before accuracy testing coppers.
@@RonSpomerOutdoors I clean the guns very well until they squeak, almost all of the bullets pass through as I usually try heart, lung shots The very few I have recovered there is little expansion, Barnes, Nosler and Horn GMX.
I forgot, the 223 is very accurate. Hornaday TAP, the rest not so much@@RonSpomerOutdoors
45-70 in 500 grain was used for artery. Firing for affect. Raining lead as you said feeding the rainbow 🌈 . Gravity helps with great penitration of 70 caliber, 500 grain lead skittles. Cartridge that gave the shooter multiple purposes, making big holes in things.
In the Middle East, I saw the soldiers using condoms on the end of their barrels because they are stronger than balloons and less likely to tear.
Algorithm
3" group you should say that was 1000 yards......
Rifles are finicky about copper bullets. Some rifles shoot them accurately, while others have terrible accuracy with them.
Try testing any cooper bullet ammo AFTER cleaning your barrel down to shiny steel. Leaving old gilding metal bullet fouling in a bore often messes up copper performance.
No need to change clothes why be uncomfortable.
I just dont like the copper bullets.