INEOS' Tactical Disasterclass | Giro d'Italia 2024 Stage 2 | Lanterne Rouge x JOIN Cycling
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- čas přidán 4. 05. 2024
- In this episode Patrick Broe and Benji Naesen recap the first stage of the Giro d'Italia.
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Ineos always pull stuff like this, riding like it's 2015 when they have won one grand tour in 4-5 years. The most frustrating is that they could win so much more stages / races with the talent they have on the roster.
This exactly. They forgot that they are no longer Sky with the flat out favorite among their own ranks.
They used up their good tactic quotas 😂😂😂, now they have to fulfill their knuckle head numbers.
Conservative way of cycling. Riding on the front if you're the GC leader. Unless you got a sprinter as your leader in a mountain stage.
Let's be honest: this exactly the kind of stupid, old-fashioned riding we expect from Ineos, especially when Thomas is their leader. But the likes of Soudal, Visma and Lidl should have done better. Wout Poels is also probably even more pissed off now than he already was.
I always enjoy watching Geraint Thomas race, he's a consummate professional. It will be a sad day when he is no longer in the peloton.
It's also part of the nostalgic factor of "this rider was part of my history of cycling so long it would be weird without hi" kind thing for me, haha.
True he's the last guy in the peloton from when I started watching 😅@@BenjiNaesenTV
Interesting insight on the lack of powermeter for Pogi after changing the bike. That's maybe why he looked nervous and looking behind a lot during the last couple of km. Probably when you cannot "scientifically" pace yourself based on power data, then it becomes tricky and you wanna meke sure you look at the others. Nevertheless, masterclass.
Pace by power, specifically in a GT, is a really bad idea. There isn’t a well established protocol to anticipate how cumulative fatigue and 100 other things is going to affect your power curve. It could lead to you exploding (in the case of the fatigue push the curve down, and you suddenly can’t sustain the wattage as long), or you riding too conservative when the adrenaline could have carried you over.
Good assessment
@@suisinghoraceho2403 but on stage two you still have a really good idea of your power, the fatigue hasn’t set in yet.
You guys are the best in the business! I'm a recent convert to the channel, and it's amazing how much I've learned watching and listening to your analysis. I love cycling, but the detail of tactics etc that you guys get into is fantastic, and accessible. And the real talk about the good and bad adds so much to the broadcast... Thanks so much!
Lipowitz first dropped back to bring Martinez back to the chase and then lead the chase, gaining on Pogacar. Future superstar if he gets cleverer with his riding
Honestly? Today was the first time i've consciously recognised this young guy. Never heared of him before. Although i'm a big cycling fan and nearly watch every big race. Shamefully i''m german as well :D. Good to see a young talented german climber since Kämna's future is uncertain after crashing hard.
I actually think martinez just got caught in the washing machine Effect considering he attacked the big group after he closed the gap, never the less, crazy strong ride by lipowitz
He had a mechanical
@aarons-n-b-g6642 Bro big cycling fan not watching tour of romandie? He was a BEAST on that stage Carapaz won
I wasn’t surprised he was good today. The surprise, on the back of Romandie, was that he lost so much time yesterday🤔 Anyone know why?
I like the O'Connor spirit.
I think Pogacar was throttling his effort to maintain a 30 second gap, or thereabouts, while not going full gas, to save some gas for the third week, and in preparation for the TdF and Worlds/Olympics.
He has 10 stages before stage 15 to Livigno where he can save energy. He really doesn't need to save gas!
He wasn't feeling 100%, still made the initial gap, but on the lower gradients in the final 3 kms he has a disadvantage on the group of chasers. He didn't have the legs for a full blown UTT after his patented acceleration. But that's fine, he'll get better through the first two weeks.
Jim Ratcliffe had been on the phone saying make a plan to keep the Jersey and if I dont see that on TV - you are all fired - the only rational explanation
G was already in red after that Ineos madness and were it not for BORA Hansgrohe who continued chasing after Pogi pulled away the loss could have been huge
They were stupid earlier in the race. But here G rode really smart.
I don’t think pogi showed any weakness. He just tempo’d it to the finish without going into the red and looked comfortable. Compare that to the other gc contenders who were all broken coming over the line. I think that will be the plan throughout the giro to get the win without getting hammered with fatigue.
Easier to take 30 seconds on at least 6 stages than one attack for a 3 minute gap. He's untouchable when he kicks, he can simply decide when he wants to press the button and go solo TT. That's why I love when he announces his plan the day before: we all know he doesn't need to lie, because he will drop everyone - it's so funny man. On the Mini-Strade stage he'll probably take two minutes nevertheless!
The way O'Connor stayed with him at first, then both sit down and pogi just stands up again and punches just as hard. O'Connor just not even thinking about a reaction. Brutal to see.
Was disappointing to see same old Ineos, I got quite excited when Ganna looked like he was bridging to the break!
Thanks for the podcast guys.
Fantastic analysis of stage 2 👍👏. Pitty that you cant show any video from the actual race 😢
In terms of Poggi's form, we aren't machines, as much as one tries to peak at certain points in the year, and build up to a certain target, there is the 2% that is unquantifiable. That edge. Most mere mortals require that edge to win, Poggi and a few other perhaps JV, MVDP and WVA can win races at 98%. Poggi has a GC gap, UAE dont really need to go on the attack. They "just" need to put Poggi onto the GC wheels with 5km to go. It's not quite race over, but.....
Just my uneducated opinion.
Thanks
Also, this video of you two in the same room is a great video. I wish you lived closer to one another and could do your weekly podcast video together. This is the best cycling video podcast in existence, second only to Chris Horners series (for his take on tactics which is always spot on). Well done you two!
You should make an LRCP Velogames league. That would be so cool!
i see people saying pogi didn’t look as expected, but first, he has a tour in mind, second, look at the pulls of mainly o’connor and then lipowitz, full gas dragging thomas who i think loses more time because doesn’t chase actively if those riders aren’t willing to
and about patrick’s comment on the tour argument, the affect is, i think, being fresh and ready psychologically, not about scientifically having to be 90% here to be 100% at the tour
Or Thomas is so smart that he know these guys would do the chasing for him.
Is there any chance that Gesink's hand injury was caused by himself when he slammed his handlebars after his crash on Stage1?
Ineos it's just like if they were already playing for second place, they just don't try to make it difficult for UAE
I agree, Pogi didn’t look as strong as I was expecting today. Not sure if there is a good explanation for it or if he’s just maybe not as good at the moment.
I saw that he did the final climb without his power meter, so maybe that’s where kept looking backward. He also looks smaller than ever, so that could be zapping his energy levels
In the post race Interview he mentioned that, saying that all you have to do is listening to your body 😃. I think Pogi is sufficiently strong to win the giro not going 100% and saving some energy to the tour. So it is possible he is not giving his all on purpose.
Haha, Pogacar first falls, then chases the group, and attacks without a power meter, that's why he also looks around a bit for orientation. Nowadays everyone is used to just looking at the numbers to see how fast they can go. He does 27 seconds and you think he's slow 😅😅😅 but if it was 1 minute, you'd say that's not right because he should be saving himself for the next stages 😅
You gave Ineos too much props for their Stage 1 tactics. Steve Cummings is like i can't be having this 😂
Cummings isn’t here though:
Did you hear Gs explanation. They road the front from the second last climb because it was technical and dangerous. They road fast but contained just to keep safe. He also said he felt bad for not relaying behind Ben but he had gone into the red and could not help at that point. He then recovered enough to try for the sprint and bonus seconds. All sounds reasonable to me!
I speak about it in the podcast and explain that his explanation is complete BS. 😅
Dude, “road” is what the riders ride on. Rode is the past simple form of ride. I think you have too much cycling on your mind. 😅
That’s why it should be called “engineered pseudo-intelligence” instead of “artificial intelligence”. Road/rode looks to be a transcription error to me.
I‘d love to see an Ineos with a DS Rowe next year.
😂 He and Cummings would be a fun pair.
Pogi looks fine to me, he’s following their plan to put out enough energy to take time when they can. 19 stages to go, and if he can stay healthy with no crashes he should win this tour without burning himself out, for July. UAE had a day off today, they are riding very intelligently from my point of view. Just saying…..
Do we know how the "bonuses" to attend the race work? Like RCS gave Pog money to do the race, do they give him extra money for more days in pink?
44:57
I’m relatively new to cycling so forgive me. But you guys say they made huge mistakes with tactics and blew their chance then 10 seconds later say they had no chance at winning this stage.
Maybe ineos rode hard to weaken all the other teams competing for second? It looks to me that they have no chance for 1st and maybe they know that too.
So basically, they don't have a chance to win the stage, or to keep the Maglia Rosa, or to compete with Pogi through traditional strategies. So the only way they could increase their chances was by sending someone like Ganna in the breakaway.
He's close in GC, UAE is proven historically to chase for the stage win on days like today, especially because Ganna is close in GC. Why would this improve their chances? Because yesterday UAE showed weakness in team strength on Colle Maddalena where 2 riders were too weak to work and dropped instantly. That means, if you put pressure, you can reduce the riders that can lead-out Pogi on the final climb, which reduces Pogi's ability to gain as much time as he did today, while giving you an opportunity from the breakaway if other strong teams join as well.
By helping UAE control, they did the opposite, giving them more riders to attack Thomas with. 😅
Ineos was riding for the strongest rider.. umm.. too bad that he is not on Ineos. They forget rule #1... never and I mean never pull with Pog is in a race. Let his team work
The PS5 on the background 😅
Bike racing is great and all, but I want to know how much money Patrick lost on the Derby yesterday
G is riding for 2nd.
The Ineos way, they are so boring and unaggressive, it would be painful to watch if I supported them
In what world a 37 year old G is beating prime Pogacar? Tell me that please.
Ineos was so stupid i couldnt even believe my eyes. Then no real team tries to jump either like wtf. Didnt even really watched the end, i said Pog will win 45 seconds because the climb is not hard nor long enough for more, it got to 37 seconds but none intrresting nonetheless
I’ve been G’s biggest fan for years but today was absolutely ridiculous. Pre-race the talk is that people are trying to beat Pog and today you saw that everyone is happy with second place. Fair enough if he can’t match Pogacar’s initial burst but the tactics with O’Connor and then the group were comically negative. So disappointing for the race.
So bang on about Ineos, why are you “defending” a jersey you’ll never keep anyway? Baffling and bus Thomas is 45s behind, well deserved tbh
Pog's flat/crash. It's not a hookless issue, this time. The rims are too wide for the tires. those wheels probably have a 23-25mm ID. Put a 28mm tire on. It flats. The carbon rim touches the ground, and that's like hitting ice. Lose all traction. Can't keep the bars straight. Crash. Front tubeless flats on modern wide rims are very very dangerous.
Everything is hookless related these days, even when it clearly is not. Standard way of thinking in these times.
It was a DS issue. Pogi wanted the bike changed before the corner for that exact reason, hence the frustration after he got up. Not the biggest Pogi fan but he continues to impress me with his “race craft” probably one of the most race smart riders.
@@Kittyjesus503 Yeah as he said in the interview, he shouldn't have listened to them. The DS dont know how "flat" a flat tire is. Only Pogi knew it had zero air left. But he wont make that mistake again
@@Kittyjesus503 no no, that just shows a further degree of this safety issue. Pog didn't want to turn because turning on a flat tubeless front tire is likely to pull the tire bead off of the rim, making it EVEN EASIER for the rim to directly touch the road. And that's what appears to happen: driveside edge of the rim touches the ground, grip completely gone, wheel washes out, lowside crash. But again, a 28mm tire on a 25 ID/31OD rim, if its flat, the tire is not big enough to prevent the rim from touching the ground even if you're going straight, taking a turn just increases the problem. And think about how unsafe that is! Can't grab the front brake, can't turn... good luck coming to a safe stop!
With a insert he would have made the corner no problem.
Pog is going to win unless he falls off , everybody else is riding for 2nd including Ineos . Tactics were fine .
Can't say I agree with much of this analysis. G moved up 10 places on GC along with Martinez after a Disasterclass? Makes no sense. They could have tried different tactics, but I can't think one that gets you more easily from 11th to 2nd. We now know Ineo's priority was simply to pace and be safe. Seems they are looking at a bigger picture to me.
11th to 2nd doesn't matter on stage 2, if you make 1st place's life easier with that move. Also, that 2nd place was possible without helping UAE controlling the stage, and then UAE's performance on Oropa would be less devastating which might have resulted in a smaller gap at the finish...
@@smeetsnoud1 The point is nothing disastrous happened rather the opposite. The analysis is nulled simply because we know why Ineos rode how they did and it worked out just fine. Nobody is going with Pogacar regardless of their team being on the front or his, helping UAE or not. Pogacar only needs a team for mechanicals and water nothing else. He will not be in the wind regardless of who is on the front pulling so saving the same energy for the finale just as Thomas would have behind UAE anyway.
Ineos should have gone thermonuclear when Pogi crashed. They don’t want to win 🥇
I really want to say to you both. The last 20 kilometers, the whole world is watching TV. Ineos was always in the frame and picture. That advertising benefit for Ineos is working perfect! Maybe better the gain profit for the brand, right? So it's right to pace in such a important stage on a Sunday for screentime.
The problem is not riding on the front in the last 20km, the problem is to ride on the front the first 2/3hours of the stage. There is barely any consumer value for a billion-dollar chemical company the first 2 hours of a race so that argument is bs. Let the favorite for the stage use up their team so he has less team mates for lead out on the last climb.
@@larsvisscher0410 did you talk to a manager of ineos? Why sponsoring a team than, if you likely not win. If a ineos manager or biggest customer was today inside a car... You do this things to impress - at least I would do.
@@felixerler388 The company should not influence the race tactics, they hire team managers for that. So why tf should the team manager implement a different tactics for a sponsors customer. And be honest and say we don't have the clear favorite for this stage, so implement a tactic that decrease the win changes of thier opponent, not help them.
If you think the whole world watches the Giro you’re deranged.
The first however many kms are not even on TV. They should have gone into the break.
how can it be a disasteclass when GC G was the best GC rider not from Slovenia?
Like yesterday for UAE, it could have been better.
All respect to LR and playing devil's advocate here but, if Pogi's performance was so average, why couldn't Thomas stay with him? Why couldn't Thomas gap Fortunato?
It’s only now clear that Ineos has made a major mistake. But in a race or any competitive sport you go in to win or just don’t bother turning up. If Pog had a bad day or crashed out at the bottom of the final climb, who would now be saying Ineos’ team tactics were wrong. By being in front on the last climb they gave themselves every chance of a win - notwithstanding Pogačar being in great form.
But they could easily have been in front on the last climb and not pull all day. Controlling the break formation etc. To go for the win with G vs Pogi you have to be tactically smart. Going all inn is never gonna work. Nothing about "go in to win or just don’t bother turning up"
@@pingogpong No, you are assuming that UAE will pull all day. What if UAE’s tactic is to let the breakaway go and just be satisfied with Pogačar holding his slim lead over other GC contenders? For example, Pog had a bad night’s sleep and is not 100%. Like I said, you have trust in your own team and your leader. Otherwise, you are only riding for second - at best.
Is the defending pink strategy partly borne out of a wish to keep sponsors happy? It is shining a spotlight on pink if you sit at the front and control. (Maybe I'm just making excuses for Ineos after the fact, but it's the only sense I can see in this..)
Poggi didnt look great, no where near TDF23 level. I think he is under prepped and his focus is still 100% TDF24. So he wants to win the giro as a training ride.
First stage should have been titled “Uae disasterclass “, you checky “Pogi” fanboys
Are you guys in the business of non-stop criticizing team tactics, Benji and Patrick? Especially obsessed with Ineos? Let me tell you, you have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about, this isn’t PlayStation, Know-it-Alls.
To their credit, they did shit talk everyone, including Pog yesterday. Of course, they don’t need to consider team internal politics and stuff like that and purely consider things on tactical perspective.
@@suisinghoraceho2403team politics is a pretty poor excuse for helping your biggest rival.
Lol. They are absolutely right in criticizing Ineos. That's some of the worse tactics I have seen. Some ex pros also have the same opinion, not just us armchair analysts 😂
What a poor take........clueless.....