In Defense Of Sexy Female Video Game Characters.
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- Äas pĆidĂĄn 21. 06. 2022
- In Defense Of Sexy Female Video Game Characters. I created today's video to discuss a topic that seems to be coming up frequently in game reviews and discussion, but one that has a very charged atmosphere, to say the least. Ever since Digital Foundry gave their impressions of an upcoming action game, Project Eve, and specifically focusing on the female character model as "from a bygone era," I couldn't help but think about this topic. This growing concern/aversion to the sexual female form is not limited to Digitial Foundry, however, many game reviewers and critics will also flock to this critique at the earliest opportunity. This was another point of contention with the recent Final Fantasy 7 Remake, where Square Enix even issued a press statement about the reduction of Tifa's breast size (which I can't help but find funny). What's partciularly interesting is that the games that are being praised for their female character design, like Forspoken, have less detailed more generic and mannequin appearnces. The devs with the Tomb Raider reboot went out of their way to say that Lara Croft "will no longer be sexualized." Overall, in this video I try my best to give a justification as to why having a female character with some sexaul flair is not "problematic" and can lead (whether journalists want to recognize it or not) to an iconic female character that all gamers will gravitate to and enjoy.
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#projecteve, #digitalfoundry, #femalecharacter - Hry
Sexy characters are nice for adding variety. All games shouldnât be gritty and grounded in reality like last of us 2. Sometimes they can be stylish and sexy. I think sexy characters will make a comeback when people get bored of gritty realism âfor a modernâ audience
Absolutely!! Variety is very good :-)
The Same Can Be Said About Male Characters Too. Just Saying. đđ
A CZcamsr called Liana K did a video a few years back where she explained how sexuality/sexual aggression in character design isn't just an aesthetic, it's a legitimate means of communicating information about the character to the player. Take fighting game characters like Mai, Nina Williams, Ivy Valentine, etc. Their design is shorthand for their playstyle i.e. emphasis on aggression and strong offence. Removing that aspect isn't just sticking it to the hornballs, it's robbing developers of an important tool in their kit.
Very good point!!
"we have evolved as a society ! we don't need boobs and ass !"
* looks at every instagram post *
"YEAH RIGHT"
American culture seems to have this thing where male sexual expression in any form is to be shamed and mocked. I get it can be inappropriate and gratuitous sometimes and some guys really canât control themselves, but when it comes to a sexy character design, whatâs the harm? Nobody gets up and arms when characters are designed to be attractive to women. Just let people be horny if it isnât hurting anyone.
Ik thereâs the beauty standards argument too, but just speaking personally, I love characters like Mai Shiranui, Baiken, Tifa, Cammy, etc. but I donât walk around expecting every woman I see to look like them because Iâm aware those characters were designed. The industry should give players more credit and have more faith in them to have adult mindsets on this stuff.
Journalists also seem to overlook that there are women who can appreciate these characters. You see all this discourse on the internet but in my experience, most of the women I know donât get bothered by this stuff and some even like it. Itâs all up to taste but they may be surprised to learn how many women check out other women.
As someone who draws, I remember being super uncomfortable about showing some drawings to my friends because the ladies where sexy. When i showed it to them, both male and female, they freakin' loved it, even the ladies demanded for more, hahaha!
I relate to this
Only the most insecure, narcissistic lardass women feel threatened by it. Plenty of overweight women don't have an issue with sexy female characters and some will cosplay as them even though they don't have the body for it. Imagine not being able to compete with a drawing.
Iâm more on your side here, I prefer attractive characters over unattractive characters, as I think most people do if they give an honest opinion. Thereâs a reason why most actresses in movies and TV are extremely attractive.
Yeah no joke about that! And it's not that ALL female characters need to be attractive, but it's one thing to say an attractive lead is a problem.
I remember an interview with some Japanese developer (no idea who. Might've been from Team Ninja) that was conducted by a gaming magazine in my country years ago. Interviewer asked the guy why he made the women in his games good looking. Dude apparently takes a drag from his cigarette and simply goes: "It's better to look good than to be ugly". Probably not what the guy asking the question thought the reply would be when he went with the "gotcha" so that one's still funny to me.
Sexy is always a good thing. Those proclaiming otherwise feel unsexy and envious.
Whenever and wherever they claim sexy characters are problematic ⊠dismissivley Laugh at them, perhaps they will get a chip on their shoulder, and change some life habits to maximize their own sexiness.
In the criticâs defense, the forspoken character has a cute face, and faces are the most important factor to me, in the degree of sexiness of any woman. A-cup or D-cup, a pretty face and fit posture, seals the deal for me. Always has.
On another note âŠ. Is it unreasonable to assume that some characters would have unrealistic, fantasy bodies, in a game entitled FINAL FANTASY ?
There is yet another concerning factor that may be a motivating factor for some of the critics of excessively sexy female characters âŠ. Consider the possibility that some of them may in fact be envious homosexual men, cross dressers, or aspiring M2F. There is definitely some sort of terribly âjealousâ /âcompetitiveâ faux-outrage, where they seek to either cover up or outright REMOVE the object of attention for the unattainable masculine attention these poor souls seek. Thatâs another very real and unnoticed sinister and misguided motivation of some the critics of extremely sexy female characters.
Female beauty is one of the most exciting things to experience
I wouldnât call it exciting to experience but it definitely is a sight to behold
Its like some people forget that video games are escapist entertainment, it doesn't have to be realistic, it can be anything you want it to be. There's far too many puritanical types who can't deal with female bodies with actual hips and tits larger than a B-cup. Which is funny because they're the same sorts who demand greater diversity in character design, but I guess having big tits, wide hips and being traditionally attractive/sexy isn't "diverse" enough.
On a serious note, I find that attitude quite gross, like there's "acceptable" and "unacceptable" body types for female characters (but not male ones, ever hear these types cry about male characters' physiques?). A female character design with a traditionally feminine design (big breasts, wide hips, long hair, etc) would be seen as "sexualized" or "only for the male gaze" to these people, but there are real women who look like that, it isn't unrealistic. And are they not allowed to see characters like themselves in games, just because someone else is too much of a prude to deal with it? What an insane stance!
And on a less serious note, even if a character is designed purely for the sex appeal, thats fine. This is entertainment, fiction, you can do as you please. For example, Wasn't Bayonetta based on her female designer's power fantasy? People like attractive people, men like attractive women and vice versa. And hell, I imagine gay women like attractive women too.
All these complainers are a bunch of controlling weirdos, they can't deal with anything that runs counter to their opinions. People really need to start standing up to them and tell them to get lost.
Top tier comment my friend, I agree completely
Cater to your fans.
Not the vocal sliver of squeaky wheels who weren't going to buy your product in the first place.
Love the fact that you opened this channel. I am all for sexy female characters because I don't have a problem with the beauty of the woman body, even if that means a sexual response. It's natural for christ's sake! There are some interesting exceptions to that though. One of them is Tormented Souls, a great game, but the "sexy doll" look was off putting in the context of the game, it just felt wrong and was getting me completely out of the experience. Devs reacted to this and provided options to get the thing more reasonable, which was appreciated.
For the game DF criticized though (eve something), it's totally nonsensical, the game is fast, colorful, flashy, unrealistic, cyber fantasy, it makes perfect sense here, and the character is not only very attractive, but feels completely grounded.
Also, girls ragin' on sexy female characters are just jeal' as fuck and totally in denial about it, it has to be said!
Yeah the conversation around the topic has become so schizophrenic that I basically had to make a video about it for when I review games in the future, like Project Eve, so I have something to refer back to, rather than spending the entire review on the topic ha! yes context is important to keep in mind and I think that's where digital foundry placed themselves in an odd situation. Because, like you say, the character fits with the context. The character is the context practically ha, she's not a fully developed woman in a girls school or anything. So by saying that the character is "from a bygone era," that is pretty clearly saying that female characters with this level of sexualization (which doesn't seem to be out of line or anything) are just not to be made anymore, point blank. I'm deeply curious to see what they will say when the game comes out, as DF are typically just going on about ray tracing or polygon counts ha.
Good video, lots of good points.
A couple other things that strike me are, firstly, there *was* a time when sexualisation of female characters could have been seen as a bit of a problem, because it felt like that was the only way a female character could be. However, that is absolutely not the case now. There are all sorts of different female characters and it's not like people demand every single female to be dressed like Mai. The key thing is to have variety - just as you have in life. As Mark mentioned, the problem is the knob only seems to turn one way. We got more variety, which was good, but now the knob is still turning and shutting off variety from the other direction.
Secondly, the guy from DF talking about how Eve doesn't look realistic...that's the point. It's a fantasy world with stylised combat and, therefore, a stylised, fantasy character design is perfectly apt. If Eve's character model were to stroll out in the middle of The Last of Us, sure, he's got a point, but in the context of the sort of game Project Eve looks like being, the complaint is entirely without merit.
Oh great point on the context of the world my dude! Yes this is another defense I wish I would have brought up for team ninja like ninja gaiden. In ninja gaiden, everyone is basically a Greek god, including Ryu and the female characters (and bosses). So the female characters are literally goddess designs. So if you take their highly exaggerated forms away and just swap in an average female girl in their place, it would look crazy ha. Ryu would crush her with a flick of his finger. So having the females be goddesses allows them more context in the game
I do like how in the Ninja Gaiden games Ryu Hayabusa doesnât react at all to the ridiculously big breasted women. Makes the games more hilarious and fun. The realism argument is so stupid. Make characters we could never be but fantasise about becoming.
That is a great point about Hayabusa! He s such a stud that big breasted babes are a matter of course to him, nothing out of the ordinary here :-)
My favorite response from an artist to the "gaming press" was the dragon crown guy sending that journalist buff dwarves. I don't know why but shitting on dudes for being dudes is very in vogue these days.
It absolutely is! I don't understand it. Funny enough I spend 99% of my time working and being around women (I'm like Schmidt from New Girl). So I guess I don't view my fellow dudes as a threat for enjoying some guy talk and such ha.
man bad
man in dress good
That was hilarious because it's the response every man feels like giving when he hears people like the cowards at Digital Foundry trying to rationalize why hot girls aren't good design (and failing because they have no argument to back up their cowardice). In other words, the answer is basically "lol you're gay!". But let's be fair here, gays also love bold design, girls too, the only ones who don't are the activists and the cowards who don't dare confront the status quo.
You mentioned that female gamers tend to be more drawn to these sexy videogame characters, and it's totally true. Beauty is beauty for a reason, and as humans we are attracted to it because it exemplifies the things we strive to be. Men want to be handsome, buff, and assertive, so we enjoy playing as characters like Dante, or watching movies about superheroes like Captain America. Likewise, women want to look attractive, graceful, and elegant, and so it isn't surprising that they would enjoy playing a game as Lara Croft or 2B. And, of course, we're attracted to those aspects of beauty we find in the opposite sex as well, since our basic instinct drives our desires.
But an important part of life is about tempering your desires and having some sort of self-control. When it comes to portrayals of members of the same sex, we can look at their beauty and be inspired to strive to better ourselves, but it's important to realize our limits. We should work at improving ourselves without making it an obsession to reach an unattainable goal. Likewise, when it comes to portrayals of members of the opposite sex, we can admire that beauty, but also realize that finding that perfection in the real world is unlikely. Instead of obsessing with finding that perfection, we instead find someone who strives to better themselves as well, and in the end, has at least some of the aspects of that beauty we desire.
The sad trend to remove beauty from modern art, whether it be games or movies, is misguided, I think. Perhaps, it's those that can't temper their own desires that assume others can't do so as well, I don't know. But I think that in the long run it has more of a negative effect on society in general than sexyness ever did. (And I'm saying this as a fairly conservative religious person who tends to avoid sexualized stuff anyway...)
The short of it is that, much like the classical art of antiquity (sculptures, paintings), modern art should serve as an inspiration for us to better ourselves.
This is probably the most wise comment I have ever read :-) I agree with everything you said here! I think we have similar outlooks ha, I'm not a raging libertine either by any means.
Honestly perfect response imo â€ïž
There are no rules in an interactive medium, nor should there be. An artist should never be conserned with commercial or political influence and should remain faithful to his muse.
However, as the industry gets bigger and bigger, there will inevitably be more people wanting to control artistry for fear of real-world influence. Often this is from a righteous standpoint (in this case, they believe sexualized female characters will increase the problems with the 'male gaze' and female objectification). Other times they will just be offended by a piece of art and will want to control it to take out the perceived offensiveness (again here they will want to 'cover up' the female characters).
Because of this, not only will platform holders attempt to censor (Sony currently being the worst offender) but publishers and devs will often self-censor in fear of repercussion. This is especially true in the western world where there is less of a premium on artistic integrity.
What's worrying about all this is that there is no proof of long term influence on any individual who plays video games, only that people with addictive personalities may be drawn to them in the first place.
If this is the case then why do people really complain? Well, it's simple, they just don't like it. Couple this with eSports and streaming influence, then companies will inevitably live in fear of having a bad image if they stand up for their artistry.
As a note to women's clothing in video games in general, there are no rules, but some things may look just plain silly and out of place: Abby in a bikini in the TLOU2 for instance.
However, In a semi-realistic video game, if you were to put all the female characters in a bikini or put all the female characters in a tank top and jeans you are just doing the same thing - removing their agency. Women will always wear a variety of clothing in the real world, some of which may be revealing. Were you to put these same women in a video game where there are really no concerns of actual harm, temperature, or social stigma, they would go to town.
I really like the point you make on as the industry has grown, the efforts to censor and control grow along with it. This is so true ha. Hence why in the smaller scale days a decade or two ago there was more freedom for artists to express themselves, because they didn't have these large entities with big heavy clubs constantly clobbering them on the head ha. It was a time where games were made primarily for fans, rather than interest groups.
If I wana see regular people, I go outside.
What people need to emphasize when discussing changes made to preexisting designs or an overall shift in mainstream character design isn't necessarily the changes themselves but the motivation and agenda behind those changes.
great point guy! Yes that's so important. Like if they change Tifa's breast size because it looks too absurd in the remake, it makes sense. But if they change them because big breast are a problem generally, then that feels weird.
Very much this, and I think often viewers can tell whether such a change was a genuine artistic one or done under social pressure
A topic like this really requires nuance and I think you did a pretty good job with that. I think one of the main problems with sexualizing characters whether female or male is presenting these unrealistic/unachievable body types. Of course, for the most part, people are attracted to these idealized/hyper-sexualized character designs and I don't think that sexy character designs are a problem given appropriate contexts. To the best of my knowledge I think the main character in Forspoken is modeled after a real person which is pretty common especially for western games these days. And perhaps that body type serves its narrative better than a very "sexy" design/model. Due to the internet just been a shithole for mature and nuanced discussion I think that hot topics like these do not get as much polite debate as they should. I don't know if there's a perfect solution to a problem like this, but I think it's fair to say that especially in art as long as you're not trying to hurt or offend someone (shitty people like nazis not included) most stuff should be fair game.
I really appreciate you making this argument, because it's one of those things that's so difficult to talk about without coming off overtly sexist and perverted. I'm definitely on your side of the argument. I especially feel that it's difficult for us men to express what we find attractive and how we would like our characters to look like without coming off as a porn freak. I think that it's quite unfair how its socially acceptable for women to enjoy sexually attractive male characters like Chris Hemsworth playing Thor. I recall there was backlash from female fans of Thor when they introduced Fat Thor with the big pot belly, and they changed him back to sexually attractive Thor in the next movies. On the other hand it's not easy for us men to make a similar backlash without being labelled as perverts, sexists, or mysogenists.
The most egregious thing by far, and something so few people actually understand, is the utter hypocrisy. No, I'm not talking about how male character's are portrayed, I'm talking about the fact that the whole "objectification" argument is (ironically) sex-negative, and inherently demeaning to women. It clearly implies that female sexuality is more shameful than male sexuality, which is the exact same logic used by anti-porn feminism in the 70's. Except, feminists discovered a secret, they could reframe this argument into an attack on men and masculinity by claiming victimhood from this sexualization. They could argue that the prevalence of such depictions is evidence of sexism, that these characters didn't dress themselves, that men turned them into sex objects to satisfy their own pleasure. Of course, the opposite is true if women present themselves as "sex objects", then their sexuality is to be respected, they're not to be shamed.
This is how you get a woman complaining that a man "objectified" a female character by making comments about her breasts, while proudly having an OnlyFans page.
Nobody picks topics quite like you, man. Love it & can't wait
Thank you my dude! This one has been on the brain for months, and recently I needed to bring the topic up in an upcoming review ha.
I think this is a very American thing which I can easily understand in the American cultural and historical context. The sad part is that this approach unfortunately takes over the world and is forced into every other culture.
Not an American thing. We have lots of big boobs and butts out here, don't worry
I am deeply american, that's for sure ha. I'd stick out as one if I went to another country. But what I'm hoping to communicate is to be open to contexts of other countries. Like in Project Eve, this is a South Korean Studio game. So, in my opinion, it feels very closed off to look at this game and say, "it's from a bygone era" just because the Korean studio has a different style and taste.
Alex Battaglia (from Digital Foundry) is the one narrating and making the complaint of the "why so sexy", he's not American btw he's from Germany and lives there. It's just that these ideas have now spread to every western country in the world. Meaning this neo-puritanical idea that started in US universities, these ideas themselves are a blend of modern feminism and marxism, it's quite a damaging cocktail for our culture and well-being, luckily these beliefs are so incredibly toxic and hypocritical that only a small select of people will even care to entertain them, and while a lot of media now try to spread this they always fail in making money. Partly because of the ideas themselves aren't inspirational or aspirational in any type of way, but also because the people creating the entertainment are not talented enough and finally because people want and need for beauty to exist in this world.
@@franciscor390 might be annoying but again, Marxism is not from the USA. Maybe I'm sensitive (USA native), but I promise that is not our culture. If anything it's a reactionary response to the liberalism the country is founded on.
Marxism has nothing to do with that trend
And secondly these beliefs are very popular especially in online communities and its growing more and more normalized
I think it's a pretty reasonable take, and I think if you want to develop this understanding, though, requires some additional recontextualizing in seeing where others are coming from.
I'm totally with you in that a character's sexuality can be an important point of characterization, and it's powerful when it's used to further it. Bayonetta is super well done on that front because she's confident in her body and she flaunts it whether men are there to look or not. But I feel like more often than not, especially in older media, fanservice is just slapped onto media to pander to the male audience to paper over what is ultimately a subpar product. At this point seeing excessive sexualization raises my BS alarms because I'm conditioned to seeing it as a crutch to try and appeal to the audience when there's no other leg to stand on.
But this is still a very male-centric view of the subject matter. As a fellow dude I try to seek out opinions from other women and I think besides the unrealistic proportions deal, the other big complaint I hear about is just variety. A conventionally slim, attractive character is fine, but it can become a problem when it's the default. I wouldn't call her "outdated" per se, but I'd definitely label the heroine of Project Eve as extremely generic when placed against any female character model from any other Korean MMO, for example (Tera, Blade & Soul, Black Desert Online, to name a few). I think just as much as how LGBT+ representation is increasing in media to represent their diversity, women in media are also looking to expand the ways they can be represented outside of "underwear model." I recently went to an anime convention and it was interesting to see just what characters people were cosplaying, as obviously they're all ones that people had an emotional connection with. While there were your fair share of bunny girls and the like, but seeing just what kind of characters people cosplayed as when they didn't fit the conventionally desirable body type was enlightening.
And as a final note as I'm starting to lose track of all the things I wanted to say, I'd like to posit that most straight guys have no idea what a sexualized male body is if they thought someone like Kratos or similarly muscley shirtless dude is equal opportunity fanservice. I was pointed to art drawn by women and gay men meant to sexualize the male body and I was deeply uncomfortable, and it helped give me the perspective on what women must feel when they look at the silly body proportions some of our female characters have.
Yeah there's definitely room for some of the older games to add more taste to their female characters. I guess what I would say is that these changes can be realized and felt with some strategic brush strokes (metaphorically speaking) rather than smacking them with a sludge hammer ha. I think Tifa in ff7 remake turned out well, for example. On the topic of what women find attractive, I'm no expert in the subject (I doubt any man truly is), but I do think women have a much broader sense of what they find attractive than men do, so they are much harder to pin down in the same way.
"But I feel like more often than not, especially in older media, fanservice is just slapped onto media to pander to the male audience to paper over what is ultimately a subpar product."
The 'subpar product' is debatable but games with sexy girls being aimed at men is bad how exactly? They are escapism and not everything is going to appeal to everyone. Wishing the opposite is just plain delusional. There are games for everyone in the market and you won't see me go to Twitter and scream to Nintendo to give Princess Peach a bikini or shit like that. If you don't like it just ignore and move on, but stop trying to change everything to catter to your views.
basically the makers of forspoken like their women look like men đ
"I don't wanna play as the boy cause I'm not gay. I don't want to look at a male ass all day."
-Werster, 2013
Ha yeah all sorts of players have different preferences. I personally almost always play as an attractive female character, almost exclusively ha. It's just a fun shift in feel.
Your based for making this video. I remember back when game websites loved when video games had sexy female designs (I remember IGN even ranking the DOA highly on their top 1 video gsme babes you know)
I hate how much of an effect this has had on the industry. Senran Kagura is effectively dead because the newest game can't get out of development hell due to the censorship policies and the current gaming landscape. And like you said, Dead or Alive 6 had the same problem where they toned down the game to appeal to "core values" and in addition to the game being incomplete and having too much dlc, the toned down sexual flair of the series and its identity has been damaged. All that but for appease people who never cared
And the comparison between Project Eve and Forspoken is almost like parody where they absolutely hate the attractive female character but prefer the average looking, Tumblr esque created character lol. And I agree, there's no real justification as to why character designs need to be toned down. And all this does is remind me of that one journalist who covered his eyes when he played one of the Yakuza games when an attractive female came up on screen lol
As a huge fan of Dead or Alive and Senran Kagura, I miss when sex appeal was more appreciated in gaming. Funny enough is someone made a video recently defending Lollipop chainsaw and I remember that game getting a lot of flack for having a prominent attractive female character, but doesn't that hurt women that actually are attractive. Idk I find it so odd because people unanimously like Bayonetta as a female despite her sexual flair
Thanks so much my dude! The game journalist covering eyes is so funny. To the general gaming landscape I think many dudes try to view this trend as an improvement but it seems immature to me. In their efforts to respect women (which I am completely on board with when in makes sense) we ve swapped over to infantilizing them, which seems much worse.
I absolutely agree with your point of view. I think art in all manifestation (games included) must be preserved in all ways possible and avoid censorship of the creator's vision. There are various forms of classification to appease various audiences, and eventually, gamer itself in the option could eventually choose in the future various levels of representation. What I don't like are the extremes, and the hypocrisy in the world. Statues or paintings representing sexuality must be burned or destroyed? I thought witch time has passed... Come on now... And by the way, games are both a form of art, not the reality, and also a form of enterneinment. Everyone is attracted primarely at first glance to the more external layer, and beauty appeals to everyone, denying it is futile. In real life, the external layer is only the beginning and can be discarded in favour of other aspects. So in games, one should never stop at the first appearance and I usually like more the mechanics, substance of it, how the game plays, the enjoyment. We should never forget why we play the games, that is essentially, for fun!
Dragons Crown is my favorite game with questionably sexed up female characters, particularly the absurdly endowed sorceress.
Sick beat âem up/ action rpg for sure though.
Oh yeah they take it to the next level in that one ha
"She looks like a Tony Hawk create a character" lol, that shit was spot on đđđđđ
How did i miss this video?! great topic! Sexy Female Characters are a definitely a plus for me! Beauty has to be celebrated not shamed!
Exactly!!!
Games can be a power fantasy. Just like girls love Tifa, Kasumi, Xianghua, Jill Valentine, boys can be upset about a male character whose sex appeal has been tone down. I remember the hot debate surrounding Axel in Streets or Rage 4, and all the people who complained about how he looked out of shape and like a hobo. They wanted sexy Axel from the previous SOR and it's understandable. He is a power fantasy, not just because he is a fantastic martial artist, but also because he is handsome. Everyone loved Adam's (and Shiva's) design, cause he looked hot; he was every women wet dream, and sometimes, that's just what you want to be.
Of course, I'm not saying every playable character must be sexy. It can be a thing, like in Dead or Alive, and it can be not, like in Third Strike. We all seek different artistic direction, depending on our mood. The topic has become so toxic that if a playable character like Mitsuko from the first Bloody Roar was shown to the public nowadays, it would get negative reactions based on whatever secret agenda is pushed, and at the same time, you can't have the heroine of Project Eve without the same kind of backlashes but from another group. Thus the girl next door look that becomes more and more prominent.
Great point on the male side of things! Yeah in the case of axel you make a lot of great points! Another one is that this new trope of the out of shape washed up dude coming back to be the hero is a power fantasy of it s own brand as well ha. Where it s like no matter what your choices in life are, you can always come back and be the hero. Maybe wish fulfillment is a good term for it.
Amazing analisis. I really like how, in every video, you get to the core of the problem and make points that are perfectly valid. Love your content, keep up the great work. â€
That's such awesome feedback my dude!! I'm glad you are enjoying the vids!
Narcissism at it's best lol
Honestly though I'm more concerned about the restrictiveness of the outfits they're wearing than probably the main topic at hand.
The irony is personally these type of gaming aspects have never affected me to give the society any sort of ill influences. What's more disappointing to me is we're not quite allowed to admire and appreciate the art of femininity like we originally could anymore. May sound weird to some people but hopefully these words are still understandable for some.
Yes great point on the feminine art. This I agree with 100% like in the case of Twilight (I m a twilight fan). Twilight is deeply feminine art and look how it continues to be treated, it gets nasty attacks from all directions
as a woman, I am also worried about this trend. This whole "cover up" dynamic can become slowly but surely dangerous. I had a guy in my highschool class from Afghanistan, and if you google "afghanistan women in the 80s" you'll see skirts and jeans. Today, women in Afghanistan have to cover up. I don't WANT women to have to be covered up. Here in Europe, naked statues are everywhere, and we condone depictions of violence MUCH more than depictions of exaggerated female bodies. If any woman feels triggered over random virtual videogame characters, then there's something wrong with her mental state.
@@NoctLightCloud I think your argument would be better served by referencing the relative freedom Iranian women had under the Shah before the 1979 Islamic revolution. Afghanistan of the 1980s (and Afghanistan pre-2021) benefited from the outside influence of an occupying foreign power (the Soviet Union and the United States, respectively) so these norms weren't exactly indigenous. Afghanistan is, at heart, a country that will forever be stuck in the Iron Age. But Iran really is a modern country underneath the repressive Islamic Republic regime.
@@PaulvonOberstein I agree 100%
Wow. I am just lit up in fiery agreement with everything you said in this 30+ min video. I wish I had some kind of criticism or combative thing to say.
6:04 That really is quite the articulation that no one asks or comments on. WHY are there crickets. You can just feel the weight in the air, that the other DF members have some kind of clamp on their lips. THAT is the issue. Open up dem lanes!
Subbed and belled. Time to go binge the rest of your videos.
Your tank top story totally reminds me of my high school experience. Iâm 48, now. But, back in â93 I was a track athlete at my all-boy religious HS. My coach sent me on a simple errand to go to some classroom to get info for something. Normally, we had to wear slacks and a polo shirt. Our hair had to be to-the-collar, etc. But, as an athlete we wore tank tops, shorts, etc. While on my trek to the office, I encountered two of our schoolâs nuns. I simply asked for whatever my coach was asking, but the nuns kept on cutting me off and repeatedly told me to dress more appropriately. I was totally confused. I told them, âYou do know that Iâm an athleteâŠfor the schoolâŠthis is our uniformâŠsomething Iâm required to wearâŠif Iâm to stay on the team..and, weâre currently in practiceâŠâ Those horny old nuns wouldnât have any of what I was saying. đ€Łđ€Ł
I get confused when people generalize or push their own views too much when we're speaking about some games made from other Countries with very different cultures and views. It is odd that suddenly having a "sexy" character is bad, when that is considered beauty, and of course creators sometimes want to create things beautiful or go beyond what is natural or real since it's art. anyway, good vid!
That is very true. For example there is a lot of interesting trends in japanese media that people may or may not like, but it's hard for me to comment on it without the context of what's gong through where the artist is coming from in the first place. Context can make a big difference.
This is my favorite new channel as this topic *needs* to be discussed more from this angle. I'm almost certain half of the opponents to the topic "like Digital Foundry there" feel that way *only* because they feel they have to, not because they actually feel that way. More people love sexual designs and characters and the evidence is everywhere, but the public opinion is against it because people think they *have* to be. With more people speaking up like yourself, hopefully we can start normalizing the opinions most people actually feel.
Hey Mark! A question for beat 'em up month similar to my prior question in another video:
What makes a good beat 'em up character? I know, very unexpected question right? đ
Like shmups, bmups is also a genre I've accidentally neglected in my pursuit to be good at all genres of games. I realized this almost entirely as a result of finding your amazing channel, so I've recently picked up Fight'N Rage, Streets of Rage 4, River City Girls, River City Ransom Underground, Final Vendetta, The Takeover, Mayhem Brawler, Jitsu Squad, TMNT: Shredder's Revenge and even more.
Therefore I thought it'd be a pertinent question to help me better understand and succeed in the genre if I asked you what factors combine to create a powerful character as well as what kind of characters you typically consider to be strong. And so, hot off the heels of enjoying your "What makes a good beat 'em up?" episode, I come to you and ask: What makes a good beat 'em up *character?*
Thanks for your time, man. I absolutely love your content and streams. You've single-handedly kept me entertained for nearly an entire month now and it's been a truly fantastic ride hearing you and others talk about two genres that I was almost entirely ignorant to until I subscribed to you. At some point when I have more disposable income I'd like to buy some of your shirts and merch as a thank you for all of the dope games and knowledge I've gleaned from you and your channel. Take care pimp. đđđŻ
Thanks so much!!! I love to hear you are enjoying the channel so much :-) as far as a really OP beat em up character here are a few things to keep an eye out for
-fast walk speed
-large grab range
-large range jab with disjointed hitbox (you hit them, but they can't reach you)
-lots of s on throws
-some kind of cancel on their Jab combos to make a stunlock loop (see my Batman returns vid)
-a strong desperation attack that has lots of s
-able to move sideways well
-ways to control crowds of enemies with attacks
I m sure there are more but here s a good set to get started ha
@@TheElectricUnderground This is absolutely fantastic information! Thank you SO much! I seriously couldn't find ANY information regarding the inner-workings of bmup characters and how this influences their overall strength and efficacy in the genre, so this is really appreciated so much more than you may initially realize. You're awesome, Mark! Never stop being awesome! You've easily earned yourself a life-long subscriber and supporter right here! Thanks again man! đđđŻ
Nobody puts babes in the corner.
Edit: Not only was that a joke but also a clever play on a phrase from the movie "Dirty dancing" which was invented by it's creator who would go dancing in underground clubs because of feeling oppressed. If you go too far in one direction (e.g: anti-sexualisation it then causes a problem of oppression like in the old old days - Where everything is classed as taboo).
Yeah that's a really interesting overlap we are starting to see, where teenage rebel movies are making sense again, but in a different way now ha.
@@TheElectricUnderground It's like a circle đ.
Excellent topic and video. It's also strange that society has become much more open to sexual topics, but we've gotten hung up on sexualization, particularly with the female body. You can go buy basic sex toys at my pharmacy or big box store, media is filled with people sharing tons about their sex life, etc. but we're somehow concerned about if the curves or outfits of a fictional character is alienating or offending? I also agree with the assessment about rebellious independent female characters being more likely to toe the line on how they present themselves (even if they never actually engage in any sexual activity). Humans are attracted to each other physically; it's going to happen and I fail too see why we're so upset that people are attracted to certain outfits/body types, particularly if it makes sense in context. DOA girls or Bayonetta would be bizarre in a courtroom drama but for the media they're in sure, why not? Lastly I will say looking at old Contra artwork only ever made me want to hit the gym harder. If I work hard, I can look like that and be the best physical specimen I can possibly be? It's ridiculous of course but what's wrong with Chun Li artwork motivating a woman to be athletic and sexy instead of princess in distress?
Thanks for the video and sharing your opinion. With two young girls, I do think about this topic. It does bother me when critics and journalists discuss an "objective" standard of how fictional persons should be depicted. My take away is that when the word "problematic" is thrown around discussing entertainment, there is an inherent assumption that consumers must be influenced by their media consumption. We are incapable of separating our media consumption and real-life behavior. Exception is most fictional violence which is totally cool and has no effect on us. The cognitive dissonance is real. I liked your E3 video and your thoughts on the industry move to safe and sterile output. Feels like we're in a science experiment and our value is the money our corporations get from us.
Yes exactly. I think critics have gotten into this mindset where through the will of their opinions and the compliance of the studios, they can start socially engineering the audience in whatever directions they think are most suitable. Honestly I think a lot of this stems from the fact that critics over-value their role as some kind of cultural missionary, rather than merely a curator of art.
â@The Electric Underground And the trend that a lot of the critics graduated uni, and probably hold a degree in Gender Studies or at the very least, did a few units in Gender Studies.
I think it's good to be aware of sexism and oversexualization of female characters in video games but there's been too much of an overcorrection in gaming media to the point where anything not puritanical draws criticism.
Never thought that our boy would have tree trunk legs.
Some donât skip leg day at the gym, son!
Yep spend many days swimming and running :-D
Hey Mark! It's really great that you are discussing this topic. I think the main issue here is not about video games , it's about politics. And nowadays this is happening on all industries. The main problem I see behind this, is people trying to control what we see, what we like, how we express, how we talk, etc. They want to model culture to their specific way of thinking, and censor any other type of expression. At the end of the they, this is a battle for freedom. Freedom for art expresiĂłn and freedom for you as a consumer to see and experience whatever you like. When this stupid guy is saying that this design is the old way of doing characters, like something from the past,something bad, and the Tony hawk girl is the way to go, in reality he is trying to impose what he thinks to others. And the fact that nobody can argue against it because of backlash fear, it's scary and kinda dictatorial. So I think every argument against this things should go based on freedom, because this is what we are fighting here.
Yes I think artistic freedom generally speaking, like you mention, has taken a big fat smack to the face. I am very hard pressed to think of a recent example of media (game, movie, even music) that seems genuinely free and bold. I m sure there are examples out there, but they are becoming rare creatures
@@TheElectricUnderground I think if we speak of western mainstream media, there are not many examples. Maybe on the Asian industry is not complete dominated by this type of ideology yet , but it's about time. If they want to sell to western audience they will need to adapt. It's terrible. And I'm speaking from both sides, from an artist and a consumer.
That bit about art vs critics, and all your views on art in general absolutely mindblowing, really opened my thinking
Fine! Then I demand a hotter host for the Electric Underground! Where are my abs!?
You kid but I am trying to slim down to my hollywood thin days of my 20's. XD I've been biking every evening and trying to work out daily.
@@TheElectricUnderground can't tell under all those baggy clothes. TAKE EM OFF! WOOOO!
Forspoken turned out so bad that the studio got FORSAKEN and shut down omega lol
Killer boots my dude.
Thank you my man! Finally they can make their debut, got them from a thrift store in Sun Valley earlier this summer.
Wow! First of all thanks for this video and I'm glad to see someone finally talk about this. I'm a 45 years old gamer. I've been really disappointed by the mentality in the last couple of years. Critics who used to promote games and still show what could be done better have now fallen to everything is trash mode. I think people are being hypocrites. There's plenty of blood and gore everywhere but it's blasphemy if you see some skin or curves on female characters. They're trying to censor everthing in games yet if you look on TV, Facebook, Instagram or whatever you'll see plenty of people in revealing situations. The human body is a work of art and just because we like it doesn't mean it's sexual and we're perverts. There have been a ton of artists through the ages that have painted the human body in nude form or made statues or whatever so there is something there. The way I look at it is if I'm going to spend hours looking at a character, might as well be something I like. Doesn't mean it has to be gratuitous either. Sex or nudity without context or reason isn't better than a game being overly violent just for the sake of it. In this cancel era people are afraid to say or do anything that might offend. I think Art in its different forms is suffering because of it and we see it in gaming especially. To me there is nothing weak about a sexy female character of different body shape. Doesn't have to be a toothpick either. With the growing women rights and equality, which I am for to be honest, people think its showing women as objects by having female characters in revealing outfits which to me is just plain stupid. Nobody complains when games portrays men as perfect muscular guy when 3 quarters of the population are not shaped like that. I find it especially ironic when americans try to be puritan yet more than half the pornography industry comes from your country and nobody (not even me) can say they never watched a porno. I'm just ranting here but I find it sad that critics or whatever decides what I will see just too appeal to some wannabe journalists who probably don't even play the games as they were intended to and just skim over the content to find the negative points. I tip my hat to devs who dares to make provocative games likes Leagues of Maidens and such, sure the game is far from perfect but look at the character creator and all the options you have. I hope more devs will take the risk in the futur.
excellent comment my dude! I like a lot of the thoughts you share here. Especially pointing out the hypocrisy of the porn industry and stuff like that. How much would you bet that the same DF guys aren't looking at that sort of stuff hours after their commentary on the Eve main character ha. What's deeply ironic though is that attractive female characters in games are being hunted down like it's the scarlet letter, but at the same time places like twitch are exploiting real life young women (no one can convince me otherwise where they now have streams where people watch young women sleep ... creepy).
@@TheElectricUnderground Couldn't have wrote it better!
Really great perspective that you talk more towards the art. If I looking to art from the past how people imagine the futuristic life, every artist have their own perspective and portray their imaginations beautifully. And now I living on their future, it is so different in the reality but somehow I can feel some connection to the artist towards their work. I think we should thinking the same about female potrayal in artistic medium. Sexualized or not should be no problem as a representation to the imaginative story the artist want to express.
Yes exactly it s in a wierd way imposing a view on how a female character "should be" no matter the context. Like in project eve, the context is clearly hyper real and exaggeration, so it would naturally follow to have a main character whose appearance matches this aesthetic. It seems like what critics like the DF boys want is a particular female design no matter the context
Thank you for this video!
You someones a real shmup enjoyer when they even use the laptop in tate mode
lol i didn't even know square "reduced" tifa's melons in the remake they still look massive
I know that was a huge PR mistake from Square. I don't think 99% of the fans would have even noticed or taken issue. My theory was that the "ethics department" at Square (and a lot of companies) needs to justify its existence somehow, so they thought releasing this big press statement about it would keep them employed for the next few years XD
I think you can have both. But here is the problem. When you take a look or way a character acts from a past show or comic. That really defeats the unique purpose of the Character. It would be like if I took something of Tolkiens work and changed the look of the Character. Imagine if Gandalf was wearing something unique and not wearing a Grey Robe. So that hurts the Character Lore. This generation thinks having sexy characters is bad, beyond dumb and actually hurts sales of a game. It also have made certain reboots fail. Because they went back and tried to change everything.
He put the laptop in tate~
Just to keep the shmup spirit in the vid :D
I don't understand this assumed premium on "realism" in games. Where does it come from?
That's a great point spencer and something I think would be interesting as a follow up topic. Because it seems to me that the realism critique only gets served up when its convenient and it would be funny to see it applied across the board in places that it usually isn't. Great comment!
To me there's a difference between sexualization in AAA games and sexy stuff in smaller productions. Sexualization in AAA games is just here to sell more, it is planned and validated by the marketing department, and not a crerator's vision.
As for FFVII Remake, it is ridiculous on both sides. Square making public statements about the breast reduction and some people getting outraged by it. You make a character design decision, that's your right you are the creator, why do you feel the need to communicate about it? It should have been a non issue, Tifa is still smoking hot in FFVIIIR and her breasts are no where near small (they went from huge to "simply" big... woah big deal let's set twitter on fire!). It's like those public statements by the editors are made for the very purpose of getting strong reactions and thus nourish the narrative that their company has taken a strong progressive stance. While in reality it's all PR "look, look, we're the good ones, fighting the good fight!".
It's the same with Mass Effect Legendary editon and Miranda's removed butt closeups. If you feel that these camera angles were kinda stupid or immature just remove them. And if, and only if, somebody asks about it explain your reasons without making it sound like you are the tip of the spear in the fight for gender equality. I think that was precisely why they communicated about it. They were absolutely counting on the manchild reactions "SJW took away muh Miranda's butt closeups!", they needed them because most people wouldn't have even noticed the absence of those shots otherwise. And no one would have praised their "strong stance" against women's objectification.
I really like this point Kathleen! Yeah the decision to announce to the world, BOYZZZ WE'RE REDUCING THE BREAST! was the wrong call in every way. It's bringing attention to an issue that need not exist. I thought all the ff7 remake characters looked great (best part of the game), and I doubt many people would have noticed the reduction in breast size. And even if they did, I think 99% would have accepted it as making sense because the OG ones would look out of place with the rest of the visuals. Put having your "ethics" department basically state that the OG breasts were too big to be ethical (which still is too funny) is asking for a lot of trouble. Same with the camera angles, just remove them and I doubt many people would notice or care. It's the grandstanding that's gonna get people annoyed. I dislike grandstanding in almost all cases anyway, so it's hard not to be a little sassy about it.
But it's still irrationally CHANGING the character for no reason other than to bend the knee to an excessively loud vocal minority of idiotic leftist extremists (I'm a liberal myself, by the way). It just doesn't make any sense. Play it the way Warhorse Studios did - they're the ones who made Kingdom Come Deliverance. These same morons screeched and screeched over twitter about how there are no black characters in the game... *IN MEDIEVAL BOHEMIA WHERE THERE LITERALLY WERE NO BLACK PEOEPLE.* And you know what Warhorse Studios did? They didn't bend the knee, they said sorry, but our game is going for historical realism and we won't sacrifice that for temporary woke points. Look at what happened, the game came out and people loved it despite a little bit of a rough launch with bugs and performance issues, but those were quickly fixed. Where are those raging whiners now? Certainly nowhere near Kingdom Come Deliverance, because they've moved on to something else to be outraged and butthurt over. That's why you never, bend, the knee. All it serves to do is piss off the loyal fans - the people who will actually buy your game - the people who ensure that you have a paycheck for your good work.
As an interesting aside, try searching for Tifa Lockheart on youtube and watch the recommended searches vanish. People noticed that happening during the discussion about Tifa's boobs, and it's still there to this day.
Good video, I agree with a lot of your points. I think one thing to remember though is that 'art' is not the reason for the creation of most video games; it's money. You are viewing the sexuality of a character through an artistic lens, while most of these characters are and were created with the aim of enticing and following trends. It's one thing to say a characters sexuality is a means of the artist expressing themselves, but it's another thing when that character was designed by committee to sell units. It works both ways with the Tony Hawk create a character models being trendy and selling well right now. Unfortunately we can't appreciate video game characters and sexuality as anything but subservient to their goal of seducing to sell. Asking for edgy art that doesn't follow trends is very difficult when most game studios must not just sell units, but sell the most units and always be increasing.
Yeah great point on the appeal to the lowest common denominator, it is really hurting artistic freedom in the medium right now, in lots of areas :-(
bro i love the jank here, you have the laptop sitting sideways so it can be plugged into the charger and feeding you a mic at the same time
Ha yeah the perch was too small to have it sitting normally
@@TheElectricUnderground Tate mode ftw đ€Ł
For me i donât really care or mind either way, but thereâs a voice and a market for both so calling one outdated or what not is just dumb. Side note that guy Audi from the intro, wrote a really college essay level type essay for the Darius cosmic collection revelation book thatâs in the collectors edition. That dude smoked a good one and wrote some random stuff like how the Darius 1 music is good because it takes influence from the Bible and other out there ideas lol. (For you nerds Darius 2 had more of a biblical influence in its soundtrack, itâs in the vinyl notes)
The point that critics are more valued than artist is something I never considered but is an obvious huge problem. Critics have gotten a huge ego and their opinions have begun to come off as more and more objective as if they have authority over anything beyond their "hot takes". Worst of all people have been buying it and parroting everything they say. However I think a lot of people have lost most trust in any media after they have had to make dumber and dumber takes to get clicks. Everyone has a breaking point. It's also very obvious when people are honest and it attracts others but sadly still not the mainstream but honest content is more popular than ever and still growing
Yeah that's a great point. Among critics it is an arms race to the bottom. Like for my own channel, there is no way I will be recognized or welcomed into the industry (hence very few review codes) because I'm not going to follow along with what I'm supposed to say and not supposed to say. And it's not just about having a "correct" opinion. It's about having a predictable opinion. That's what matters. Like if I took some big contrary stance, and would just stick to that stance no matter the context (we see this with a lot of youtubers) they can get a good deal of mainstream coverage as either the villain or whatever. But if you are less predictable, then it's scary because I could agree with an outlet on one occasion, and then disagree with them the next.
The bottom line is that sex sells. Promiscuous character design is not going anywhere.
What you said about the might coming from the artist really speaks to me. It's been said that Suda 51 was avoiding any media influence when he was writing Killer 7, just to make sure his vision was pure. If thats true, i think he was right.
The critic is trained to see things in only a specific way, that we know, of course, and thats why its important do have transgressive work. I'm not saying transgressive in the sense like upsetting grandmothers or help the gamenews to sell cheesy headlines. Real transgressive art is the one that defies the way of thinking of the critics and the artistic realm. If we take a example in the literature, all the great authors that were considered provocative, were not because the novels were selling infuriating headlines in the paper but because somehow they managed to make some noise the the academy itself.
What I'm saying is that the mainstream cant think outside of lazy criterias unless its forced to.
It's a very difficult thing to do, going against the established criterias. Usually involves a smart way to justifies its presence. You've already gave good examples: a character that wants to be more sexy and has that aspect very well written into her personality in a non demeaning way could work.
I see you are essentially comparing "sensitive reading" with "critical reading". Although I believe both are important things to exercise, i agree that it hasnt been done in the best way. I think most would agree that the issues with the lack of conversation and critics acting like a colective mind happens both in 'sensitive reading' and 'critical reading'. One good thing that some devs tried to do is to portrait different types of beauty, not only the stereotypes with a Shiroganesama face. imo, the quality of this conversation gotta improve.
Great points here! Yes, I think this is a very good distinction to make. It's not that a critic like DF can't say "I don't like this style of female design." Like I say in the vid, that's open just like my thoughts. But like you say, I think the conversation has run away with itself where now certain views are basically "correct" and if you're not on board, well that's your problem ha. And yes I recommend artists wall themselves off from critique during the creation process, at least during the key decision making. Hammering out details is fine, but you don't want your base of work conform to the whims of fans and critics.
And whaddaya know, Killer 7 turned out to be a motherfucking MASTAPIECE! đŻđŻ
To piggyback off of my last comment. I remember this argument coming up when Dragon's Crown released back in 2013. I say, give freedom back to the artists. Art doesn't care about your feelings and everyone reacts differently to what they hear and see. I'd also like to point out that the guy that criticized the sexy character from Project Eve is attracted to men. Just let that sink in
Ha that is in interesting plot twist for sure. Gives the description of "uncomfortable" new context. Yeah I would say somewhere around 2013 was when the memo about "critique sexual characters" must have got started, because there was a ton of that type of talk going on around that time, same happened with DOA.
I actually think the video game industry has done enough of a job diversifying it's female characters to a point where a game like Eve is "okay". The problem is when "Eve" is 90% of female characters in games but that isn't the case anymore. There are lots of diverse female characters written with all sorts of mindsets towards sexuality and feminine expression. We can keep it going in that direction without destroying some old tropes along the way. Sometimes you want to just play an over the top action game where everyone is just super hot, and that is fine. Look at Devil May Cry 5. Everyone in that game is hot, and thats fine because thats their artistic direction.
Forspoken and Eve both look great. I'm more excited for Forspoken because it just looks like a more interesting game.
yes that is a great point! Even on the terms of saying, hey we need to cut down on all this female sexualization, this has been pretty widely accomplished at this point. So where is the endpoint? No female sexual content in mainstream games at all? That seems to be what DF are getting at when they say "from a bygone era." Also it is stupid how selective this critique is. Why didn't they critique the shop girl in DMC 5 then? (Hint, because DMC is an established franchise with a big publisher and EVE is a new franchise with a new IP.)
I'd definitely prefer a more attractive looking character than one who isn't. Personally I find skimpy outfits to be sexier than curvy bodies, so the Project Eve character is pretty tame on that front IMO. At least, I wouldn't feel ashamed to play this game in front of my family (judging from the trailer alone anyway).
Also at one point, one of the panellists said the Project Eve character was "distracting". Uhh, that just sounds like the guy lacking self-restraint. It's the same poor excuse some people give when they sexually assault women for dressing a certain way: "She was asking for it by dressing like that! If she didn't want to get XXXXX she should've worn something more modest." I think most people would focus on other things that are more demanding of their attention, like nearby enemies, hazards, loot etc. and only focus on the girl if there's nothing left in the vicinity. It's kinda like how in a shmup you don't look at your ship, and instead look ahead for incoming bullets. And you'll get accustomed to how she looks after a while anyway.
I think the best compromise is costumes. Now the girl can be as sexy or boring as you like. (Heck, for game design in general, more options are usually better than less.)
This is a great point Lunar. On a dude level, it's always the dude who constantly controls the way his girlfriend dresses and starring down anyone that looks at her that's also all too ready to mistreat women. I do think the project eve character is pretty tame all things considered, so the assessment that she's distracting is a little much, right.
I'm very happy someone tacle this subject, i'm 110% in line with your opinion and view about this subject ! Thanks for having the balls to publish this video. Art don't need to be "safe" and "clean" and aseptised... Art is not political or ideological. It doesn't need to behave with our world view and limits. It needs to disrupt our expectation and be limitless ! Thanks again for the video ! ++
Thanks so much for the awesome comment!! Yeah art is not a safety instructional video at the company picnic ha.
Funnily enough I totally forgot about this topic because its been years since I followed mainstream games journalism. It became very clear a fair while ago that games journalism grew too big, its now an advertising industry and it seems to me it has become very connected with standard news journalism culture - hence the moralizing and political takes instead of honest and fearless critique. Its been mentioned in the comments a few times already, but I also very much doubt there is a majority of female gamers complaining that female characters are too sexy lol. I play FFXIV where you make your own character, and its extremely common for girls to make their female characters look hot. Plenty of people play as the opposite too đ. I don't look at a game like God of War and think 'Wow, Kratos is so unrealistically ripped, this is insulting and I no longer want to play this game' lmao.
It would seem like this issue mostly affects the AAA type companies that rely on the mainstream media for advertising and try to appeal to the casual audience who may be more sensitive to mainstream political issues. At the end of the day I trust Japan to continue its long running tradition of fan service in games, and indie devs are gonna do what they wanna do. Let the likes of Digital Foundry continue to embarrass themselves, cause as you said, I don't believe that they believe what they're saying - nor do I think the majority of people actually playing these games are fooled.
Great points made here my dude! Yeah "game journalism" has grown behind it s actual role of critique and now views itself as some kind of cultural institution or something
See the thing I think you're missing that you kind of touched on is creative reasoning. People hated on Eve's design without even playing the game or knowing anything about her character, which is wrong. That being said, people love characters like Bayonetta, 2B, Cammy, Tifa, etc to this day and I don't hear anyone saying that they should be covering up in future titles. In the long run, the only leg that Stellar Blade had to stand on was that Eve was hot and it made it seem like a marketing tactic to attract people to a game that is lacking in everything. On the other end, a design like Abby works for me a lot in TLOU2, especially when taking into account her specific gameplay aspects. Same with Aloy in Horizon because contextually it would be weird for one person in her tribe of more covered up women to look like Eve. I think character design absolutely works better when it matches the tone of the game and I think Stellar Blade does that to an extent but the game fails in so many aspects that the design just feels like a cheap trick.
I am okay with Sexy Female Video Game Characters. Me and my partner are authors who recently made a book with a Sexy Female Character. To us, the word "Character" is an important part because they need personality, development and making them likable to the audience that we are writing for. The sexiness is more of an icing on the cake. We keep asking ourselves, "Can we like this character if they look different, like not sexy for example?" If the answer is yes, then we're good and we know we did a good job in the writing. But we chose to make her sexy without being judge. It's our fantasy character and we shouldn't be judge for something we created that that might end up offend somebody. And in this day and age, everybody is offended by anything. We as creators have a choice to make the characters that we want to make them. And if gaming creators have made Sexy Female Video Game Characters, they should be allowed to.
There are people out there who want the female characters to be "Realistic", the "she's not sexy" characters. But here's the thing. What's the point in making a realistic character if they are bland visually and have an unlikeable personality, like Frey, the character in Forspoken. She's very angry, selfish, bitter, uncaring, self-centered, pretentious and an idiotic heroine. It's kinda hard to root for her since she acts like an a-hole. Even if you made this character sexy, I still wouldn't like her. Her character has to matter, otherwise, we're playing an a-hole. Nobody wants to play the bad a-hole.
Anyway, great video.
Good points. I think not every character has to be sexualized and maybe toning down on that was a good idea. But as with everything, the progressive people are taking it too far. What is bad though is that nowdays, NO character should be sexy (and sadly not even beautiful). Who are they to tell us what we should like?
What is important is the tone of the game. You dont want some oversexualized character in a serious story game. But the korean game with the sexy woman wont be probably that kind of game, no? Bayonetta is another great example where the sexy character even makes a lot of sense.
And to the argument about horny boys - why not embrace it? So what is so wrong about being horny? If that is part of my motivation to play a game with a sexy charcter, so what? Again, who are they to tell me or the developer what to enjoy
There is nothing wrong with Idealism when depicting male or female characters. It's a pillar of classic western art, you can be true to life while depicting something in it's most perfect form or even heights of perfection beyond our ability to obtain.
That's what's wonderful about art; it's meant to give us something to aspire to.
My skyrim mod list would make game journalists heads explode, because of bodyslide, modpocalypse npc overhauls, cbbe cbbe3ba, jiggle physics retro style start as in naked like the first 2 games, and battle spire.
You could put a hard-body superhuman male in a banana hammock outfit and you'd get way less public complaining about it being outdated from a bygone era, but as soon as it's a female character, they gotta look like a soccer mom or you're sexualizing them.
Also, it's a matter of cultural taste, especially in China and Korea. It's clearly for an Asian audience as the character design reflects that.
ur laptop is making me nervous
I know right, I was nervous too. That perch was hella narrow. Spoiler, we all make it out in the end.
In todays modern era, its not PC for women to be sexy, thats all there is to it. Women have to look as bland and generic as possible, because its wrong to look even a tiny bit attractive, because thats sexualization and objectifying women, and insulting to all the 'regular' looking women out there. The thing is, people, both men and women (and even animals), like sexy characters.
What s interesting is that the other day there were a bunch of women jogging around in my neighborhood and well ... They were not wearing DF approved attire ha
"Nunnery" was actually a slang term for "brothel" back in Elizabethan times lol.
Its great to see independent critical thinking still exists in some corners of the video game world.
Mainstream video game culture is completely lost at this point in time
Well said. Iâm a fan of female characters in games and anime and other entertainment. Girls love cosplaying as sexy characters, no ones gonna be showing cosplay of that grunge bracelet girl. The girl in project eve is covered up, no skin showing at all. Also Bayonetta was actually designed by a woman.
When it comes to changing the characters abit visually from FF7 to FF7 remake I would say it doesn't matter for something like breast size. The graphical jump is just too big. There's almost no way they would look just the way they used to. Tifa's nipple has more polys than her whole original character model.
Ha yeah exactly, the change from old school poly graphics (which I like) to modern 3d is a massive shift, it s like going from 2d to 3d in a way. Some elements like a characters body will need to be adjusted because of how abstracted the poly model is
They should portray her the way they did in the fmvs of ff7, her tits were massive and bouncy in the fmvs. It's disappointing that they aren't the same in the remake. The poly counts relative to the resolution for the fmvs of ff7 vs the real time graphics of ff7 remake for its resolution are comparable.
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I'm glad you enjoy it my dude!! Thank you for the medal, I shall wear it proudly :-) đ
Tifa is probably the most popular female game character for female players. I know Forspoken is a modern character getting transported to a fantasy world but the design, or lack of design of the main character is a huge drawback to pulling in players. I agree in that she looks like a create a character.
I cannot believe People are really trippin out of these game characters when we have real life women wearing all kinda stuff streaming on twitch. =/
Kill la kill was on to something
It really was
Anyone know what the music at the beginning of the video is? I'll find it on my own if I have to because I know where else I've heard it.
Did you find it?
@@nianddra looks like it's some remix of "Super Street Fighter II - Cammy Theme" (the one I've heard is the SF4 version, apparently).
"Too hot! To the nunnery!"
Yes.
Honestly I can't bring my self to care too much, because the games I play don't have many sexy women. I don't touch game journalist stuff either, so I was largely ignorant of what they had to say on the subject prior to seeing this video. There's so much sexual material available at one's fingers that having less exposed skin in game doesn't seem like a loss to me, but I will admit my perspective is limited there. The times where there are really attractive females in a game I play, I find it more distracting than anything else.
Itâs funny how game journalists complained about the bald space marine cliche during the ps3/Xbox 360 era but now thereâs even more women with the shaved side hair or the black women with a 70âs Afro but no complaints now of course.
Ha that's great. That's funny, yeah no journalist would bring up a trend like that under penalty of death. It would be funny to see how many times in a row a dev could release the same non-sexualized female character model before the journalists would get the courage to point it out as cliche.
Looks like Bayonetta 3 proved my point đđđđđđ
God designed women's bodies to express beauty and grace, while he designed men resemble strength and provision. It a tale as old as genesis 2, and its crazy that people are putting shame on the idea of bodily beauty
Whatâs up with the sideways laptop. Iâm glad you didnât knock it over.
ha my mic cable at the time was super short ! so i had to make my laptop super close to the pre amp ha. Since this vid I have purchased a long mic cable though
16:00 Here is the thing. I disagree with you about doa is only played for the girlies. I remember when I first played doa, maybe 4, and it was not for any sexual reasons. But to this day it has some of the best combat. I eventually went and played 5 or something and it's amazing how you can use the enviornment as a weapon, etc. I, and many would play doa without many female characters. If a game is fun, and people enjoy the content it doesn't need to have anything sexual for people to buy it. Look at call of duty. Look at super smash bros melee. When I picked up doa I played ryu hayabusa because he was a cool looking ninja . I haven't really seen all of the characters, but you are singling out doa. There are many games where the equal 'sexualization' is explicitly true. Its funny you bring up street fighter ken and ryu, and we can talk about how exaggerated their design is but those characters are tamer compared to others. Theres several male characters in street fighter who are quite literally only wearing a thong, and have everything exposed. Gil, zangief, and urien for example. (I am not a street fighter player so I don't know all of the characters.) Also not many girls play fighting games, so you are looking at things from the perspective of males, most of which aren't gay presumably. Nobody ever talks about it though. People don't look for those kinds of things to complain about. Because guys don't care, they won't complain about it, where as girls have this kind of victim mentality. By the way the other thing you got wrong is that many women enjoy highly 'sexualized' content. It is a bizzare contradiction. Famously there were more women who liked redo of healer than men. Also look at rev says desu's "your likes are public" series. A lot of women have loli porn in their likes., the same one's who complain about it. Also if you've ever been to a convention or haloween you will see many women wearing the 'sexy version' of a male character. But you only attribute wanting sexualized content to guys. Mostly agree with the end part though.
At some point the idea of women being sexual, no matter the context, became 'damaging and hurtful to women.' But jumping so far in the opposite direction doesn't help anyone does it?
sex appeal aside project eve looks way more fun and visually appealing than forspoken, DF guys are on crack. "something from a bygone era" is exactly what I want from games, new school stuff sucks. Give me ps2 games with the fidelity and processing power we have now any day.
Exactly was just playing red dead revolver on PS2 and thinking, wow shame rockstar can t make an actual game anymore ha
I'm not against sexy video games, but I always saw a sexy main character as a red flag that the game is bad. Maybe because Tomb Raider was my first exposure to such a thing. I guess people someone must like actually playing that clunkfest. But going from Mario64 to Tomb Raider was very jarring.
Bayonetta is the first time I played a game that sexualized the main character just to add to the fun. Instead of covering up dull and clunky gameplay.
That is a great point stella, yeah tomb raider as a game (as anything outside of a character) was clunky and bad for sure. I def do think it was a method of papering over a bad game for a while there. These days though, it almost feels reversed where if you are going to make the statement of an attractive female lead, you are gonna have to back it up with excellent gameplay or prepare to feel the critics wrath ha. Here's to hoping Project Eve plays well.
I thought of an analogy this morning about why it's actually sexist to insist that female characters be less sexy in art, which today includes video games. It's like the movie Office Space when Jennifer Aniston's character is required to wear 15 pieces of flair on her vest for her work outfit. Her annoyingly cheerful coworker voluntarily wears over 30 pieces of flair, and so Jennifer Aniston's boss was pointing this out, insinuating that she wasn't falling in line like her peer. Aniston then asks her boss why he doesn't just make the new standard 30 pieces of flair, and the boss said something like he wants her to willingly choose to wear 30 pieces. This analogy is relevant because these Leftists that complain about overly sexualized video game characters won't ever have the balls to flat out tell women that they need to start covering themselves up and dressing more modestly, like they do in countries where Sharia Law is present. Because if they did that then it would be like the boss that changes the rule and demands that Jennifer Aniston should start wearing a mandatory 30 pieces of flair. But instead, just like the boss, he's using the coworker as an example to give off an implication that she better start voluntarily following her peer in suit. I know this is long winded but if you think about it this is exactly how manipulative bullies act. They'll give implications of dire consequences without flat out telling you that they're a bloody tyrant.
Thats like Aloy in Horizon, the actress the scanned is beautiful but they uglified her because feminisms or something.
That is really funny. Shout out to Quiet in MGS5.
I think that soon there is going to be a developer that comes out with a game / string of games that actually makes the entire game beautiful, including very hot characters. Because why not make the game gorgeous, including the characters if you have the option. This company will make a killing and other companies will follow suit. They will follow the money.
"HYPER PROPORTIONED!!!
*F'Jeyeah
Ha what a phrase
@@TheElectricUnderground I'm gonna get a Jersey with that on da Back{...prolly need2wo Jerseys}
Good topic. Iâm in.
Hell yeah!
ah yes the drama that hit me when i was in MK fandom where MK11 characters just reveal. i remember people are mad the female characters are less sexualized but its opposite for male characters lol. idk how can i react that XD
By the look of things, it sounds like they nerfed the female sexuality in MK11. I find that so funny, but yeah that sounds like Warner Bros making some boardroom decisions
@@TheElectricUnderground and its weird that Warner Bros also make MK9 where all female costumes are too exposed.
Hitomi is my favorite DOA character. she hits hard