The controversial playoff climax that forced referees to actually talk to each other
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- čas přidán 13. 07. 2022
- I always assumed an NFL officiating crew was tight. They bonded over shared experiences, laughed over the misfortunes of those they governed, they...were friends. Alas, egg on my face.
During the 2003 Wild Card Weekend, the Giants got absolutely robbed. As a result, the NFL went about making some changes - changes that in my mind are genuinely shocking weren't already a facet of the game.
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Editing by Will Buikema
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And ever since this rule was implemented, the referees never ever made another mistake again.
So says New Orleans fans.
November 8, 2021 Bears vs Steelers has entered the chat.
@@jannix4548 YES
The mayor of New Orleans enters the chat
@@stevencooke6451 😂I Damnnnnn near cried that was the worse non call in modern nfl history…they gave me the next day Off at work
I'm so glad these are coming out more often now. This is probably my most rewatched series on this channel; thank y'all so much for being awesome!
@Raytheslay L + RATIO
I care, W comment
Same, this series is my favorite!
Weird rules is how I found and subscribed to this channel.
I’m a diehard 3rd generation Giants fan. This loss was brutal. I can’t describe how hollow the NFL’s apology in the following days was. Although every Giants fan was angry it even came down to that play, as the Giants blew a 38-14 lead taken with about 4 minutes to go in the 3rd quarter.
Also: I was on Long Island, not New Jersey, and was not listening to Linkin Park then or ever. In January 2003 when this game happened I was in high school and still listening to the Eminem Show from 2002.
I mean yeah it was a bad call but the Giants also blew a 24 point lead and messed up the snap on a gimmie field goal
@@guardaxion that's what he said
I was upset about the botched snap, but probably more upset the defense allowed Owens to absolutely pop off. This is one of those rare games where a single WR seems to will his team into victory. That 2002 team felt like they were on the way to bigger things than a first round exit.
This was long a problem in a far more serious environment: the cockpit. They then developed the concept of crew resource management (CRM). I'm also surprised that a player would check in with a member of the refereeing crew who was under no obligation to tell the rest of the crew.
It’s a field goal, who’s reporting as eligible, and WHY!?!?! Did it look like a fake kick?
Plus, how many players were illegally downfield? I’m thinking more than one.
I can see the guy trying to catch the ball jumping up and running to the official, if he had reported, but it didn’t seem to me that anyone was chasing an official like he was insisting that he had reported eligible.
A couple tactical reasons, first as a contingency for a play breaking down, second as a screen, if checking in is a publicly visible thing, you want someone to check in every play even if the play isn’t to pass so that when you do, its still a suprise
Dang that’s rough when you have to talk to someone
mood
especially when that someone is the wife.....
TALK to them?! Can't I just hit them with my car?
You would absolutely not have to transition from Linkin Park in that scenario.
The situation described at the end where a junior official is afraid to speak up has unfortunately been the cause of many plane crashes where a first officer encounters the same circumstances and lets the captain keep doing something wrong
Outliers
The tone of disappointment but also excitement in Ryan’s voice when finding out that there’s another rule book (at around 4:19), really shows that he loves the weird rules segment.
It's weird having Ryan on the other side of the rules explanation. He can't help himself from using his logical rules brain. What a king.
In a perfect world they would also talk to the media after a game.
It‘s totally normal in every other major sports league worldwide, why not in the NFL? They can give their own view on (maybe controversial) calls and i‘d beliefe the calls can only get better with it.
It's all hush hush and they wonder why the fans don't trust them
The MLB doesn't have the umps talk to the media after games either, although there are instances where they have commented on plays in the past. It would be nice to have some level of communication so we know what the officials saw and called in real time not what the league has decided after reviewing it.
In football/soccer we’ve been asking for referees to speak to the media after the game for years, the decisions they make sometimes are shambolic
What sports league does this? I follow several different sports and I can’t think of a single example of this lol
@@AT-vl4ds I come from europe and in our football or ‚soccer‘ leagues it‘s totally normal.
Also in every other basketball league for example.
You can also see that in Motorsports very often.
As an official for over 30 years, I can say one of the first things told you is to never, never, NEVER go into the locker room and say "guys I think we screwed up on that call." If you thought the crew chief was about to make the wrong call, then say something before he does it and we can all talk it out and get it right, or forever keep you mouth shut and quit officiating.
So glad to see Ryan back
You missed the best part about that - the following day, the league said "yeah, the refs blew the call", so the media went to Steve Mariucci (the 49ers coach at the time) and told him "the league says the refs blew the call" and he just goes "bummer".
Loving the Weird Rules frequency nowadays. Weird place to ask, I know, but Ben Simmons passing up the open dunk surely deserves a rewind at this point. Lots of opportunity for misdirection at the expense of viewers unfamiliar with the situation, plus it clearly set his career on its current trajectory
That’s a good idea for sure
@Raytheslay lolol yea you did troll, if you aint care you would"ve just kept scrolling
I'm STILL waiting on a Mike McCarthy Aaron Rodgers BEEF EPISODE
MAKE IT HAPPEN
👍🏿
we're waiting for them to have the knife fight that's been swirling in the rumor mill since 2017
If you were a Giants fan in 2002 and were watching this game, you had just watched your team blow a 38-14 lead and the fact the Giants were this close at all at the end of the game is a miracle
I remember Michael Strahan saying he had never been so upset after a sporting event in his entire life.
I realize I'm being intentionally obtuse here, but the refs having their own rulebook for the game explains so much.
You know, Gent’s, I miss these “Weird Rules” segments: y’all should do more as they are, perhaps, my favorite content from you. Thank y’all for doing what you do!
The Giants even got an apology letter from the league, but as a fan that was so annoying because I wanted my team to unrealistically win the superbowl
As always, a stellar vid, but I was especially fond of the Bright Eyes reference. I love that album.
"Confer with these" really got me rollin
I've always felt like having to publicly declare that the tackle is eligible defeats the whole purpose of making a tackle eligible (sneak off without anyone covering them)
I started officiating pretty much in the aftermath of this postseason, working in Softball first, before expanding into baseball and football.
I can't express how weird it was working in a crew where I was expected, even as the new guy, to speak up, tell them quickly what I know, and to have my observation respected by my crewmates. I had never had a chance to see that dynamic play out on TV much, so when it happened in real life, in real time, on a Pop Warner field, no less, it took me by surprise at fist.
But it's an important dynamic if we want to keep the games as fair as possible.
But yeah, I've screwed up and kicked some calls. I regret it. I'll learn from it and do better next time.
I'm a third year soccer referee, and recently got evaluated for the next level of certification. One of my assistants was somewhat experienced, at around my level of skill. My other assistant had refereed minor league pro soccer. The evaluator assigned to me had not only refereed top division games, but even international matches at the Rose Bowl.
It was initially intimidating but once we really got underway, it was helpful to know that if something happened I had capable people. Much better than feeling like you're on an island, or doubting the others on your team.
I like these . You guys are so random. It’s great. I do need another John and kofie vid of them breaking another video game!
I really missed seeing Ryan in these. Awesome
I am a 49ers fan and I held my breathe after that play! The 49ers came back from 38-14 to make it 38-39 and then this happened! 😮
Same here, fellow Faithful! Good thing the officials ultimately got the call right!
Definitely didn't come to this video expecting will to reference my favorite bright eyes album lol
Oh this game. This game was hella fun to watch TV as a Niner fan because you were down by a lot of points then you come back and win in the most hilarious ways ever. Because I even thought we got Defensive Pass Interfence as a niner fan.
As a 49ers fan too, I definitely think it was a bummer that they got the call wrong.
God I remember that play. I had to go to some formal party as my then-gf’s +1. Super boring, I didn’t know anybody, and I’m missing the second half of a playoff game. I kept offering to get the drinks to check the tv at the bar. Not too worried, they’ve got a 3TD lead or something like that.
I do another drink run, thinking they’re probably on to post game interviews, but that score doesn’t make sense. Am I watching the same game?
I’m there just in time for the game-winning FG attempt, which they showed in this video. I’m a little excited at first because I saw the interference and the flag. Giants are going to get another try from 20 yards out instead of 40! Yes! No! What?
Side note: 49ers coach Steve Mariucci’s response after being told it was a blown call: “Bummer.”
I love how excited ryan gets when he learns there's another rulebook
Was this the playoff game where the Giants were up 2 or 3 touchdowns early and then gave up the lead? I hated that game.
RYAN IS BACK
Ryan is BACK! ❤️
Love that bright eyes album
I remember being confused as hell the next day when the NFL said there should have been offsetting penalties because there's no such thing as pass interference against an ineligible receiver. Then I found out that Seubert HAD reported as eligible before the snap and it was another NYG player who was illegally downfield.
I love the rules episodes. Would be interested in for videos about the referees’ rule book
Whoever drew that picture of Ryan at the beginning needs a raise. Head to toe it’s a flawless representation
I like the thing where the referees announce that a player has checked in as eligible. Seems like a good way for teams to make sure they know the refs understood.
Will is so good
“ Confer with *these* “
I ref college and high school and if there is a flag usually the only ones involved in the discussion are the ones who were apart of the flag being thrown or can provide information regarding the flag. If you can not bring anything to the table you dont go into the huddle. It looked like in this video is was quickly discussed and they moved on. ineligible down field is usually a super basic call. Sometimes you just go to fast and wish you had that one back. Great video!
Beef history: Russell Westbrick vs the backboard
i love weird rules guess it’s back for a rewatch
2:40 You're absolutely right about Armando Galarraga here. God damn it
2:37 Secret Base, I'm gonna need this on a T-Shirt.
Wow was that a Bright Eyes reference in a football video?
That’s one way to mention Bright Eyes in regards to football
Holy crap is tha Ryan Simmons of the Irishmin podcast?
Dude just dropped a "Lifted" by Bright Eyes reference. This man knows his soul crushing depression music.
I was at that game, am a 49ers fan, and I support that call :)
I think the NFL's constant push to make the game faster and the near constant complaints that the officials are the cause of the slowdowns lead to the officials not taking the time they should have.
I remember in the late 90s, I think it was 38 year old OG Ray Brown was called for ineligible downfield when he WAS downfield and he didn't check in as eligible. Ray went to the officials and explained to them the rule under which he could be downfield. They conferred and picked up the flag. On the play Ray Brown drove his man downfield for more than 10 yards and when his man went down he just stood up straight, a huge man at 6'5" 350lbs(ish) standing in the middle of an active football field where receivers were still running routes, and didn't move for the rest of the play, which, apparently only he knew, was a legal play. The officials took the time to actually check the rules and got it right. Now it wasn't the last seconds of a playoff game, but getting it right is getting it right.
“Confer with these.” 🤣🤣
The way Ryan's eyes light up when he hears about a new rulebook 😂
Thanks
I remember watching this game and screaming PI at the tv when this play happened 😂
That guys went to my high school he’s super nice great guy!
This title is kinda ironic because this series forces the people at secret base to talk to each other
I have been part of referee crews where more experienced referees have overturned calls from less experienced referees.
This then leads to a culture where newer refs just give in to more experienced refs regardless of who's actually right, because they've been constantly told that they're wrong even if they may have been right. So if in this situation it was a newer ref with the necessary game information, it is incredibly believable to me as a referee that they assumed they were wrong and the experienced person making the call was right.
When I was training a new referee I did about five minutes of the game with them shadowing me, and then got them to take over for the rest of the entire game with me following them. We would talk through stuff as we went, but I didn't call anything and left it entirely up to them and there were a couple of moments where we disagreed (both on close calls), but I always responded with "right now you're reffing, not me, so we're going with what you saw." Although it may lead to mistakes in early games, it gives new refs the confidence to actually stand up for their calls when they do move on to higher level games and avoid this culture of "just follow the oldest guy here".
I know of this game. I was more than pissed that day. Qe lost power in our town and rented a hotel room just to watch this game.
This could've been a blessing in disguise for the Giants - after this they tanked hard in 2003, which put them in position the following year to trade for Eli Manning, who then somehow managed to blunder his way to 2 Super Bowl championships in his otherwise unremarkable career. If they won this game then maybe they would've had more momentum going into 2003 and end up riding Kerry Collins for another year or two, and they never find a franchise QB after that.
This blown rule, in retrospect, was responsible for foiling the NFL's 2nd bid for a perfect season. That'd be a hell of an episode to put together!
2:10 that was actually Trey Junkin's second horrible snap in a row, first one came with about 3 min left for an FG that probably would've locked the game up. Sadly there was in fact a realistic chance for yet another bad snap.
@Raytheslay mid existence, not respectfully
The Giants blew a 24 point lead, it shouldn't have come down to Trey Junkin in the first place. The man is perfect for 18 seasons, makes 2 mistakes after being called out of retirement for a whole season and New York Sports fans attach them losing the game to him. I'm not saying that's what you're doing, you probably aren't, I'm just saying in general it's a common refrain among NY sports fans to blame one guy for something like that game
Still waiting on the immaculate reception rewind
Oh man, I was at this game as an 11-year-old. What an absolutely WILD game!
I remember my dad telling me the next morning that the Niners *should* have lost, but they won anyway.
That check in rule sounds like it kills any player spontaneity from the game.
As a lifelong Niners fan, I remember watching this game live with my whole family. Unreal comeback. Thrilling NFL action. Possibly rigged, as per usual.
I clearly remember this play
Could you do a video on the non pass interference call on the nfc wild card game between lions and cowboys in 2014?
This is the game I became a giants fan.
Ain’t nothin as bad as that no call in the nfc championship rams vs saints.
Still am not sure if the 'intended receiver' actually reported in as eligible or if he only lined up in an eligible position (i.e. on the end of the LOS). Simply lining up as eligible does NOT make him an actual eligible receiver due to numbering requirements.
Seubert supposedly told officials prior to the game that he would be lined up as an eligible receiver for field goals. I can't speak for the rule book in 2003, but that's not how declaring eligibility works today (see Section 3, Article 1). The explanation for Seubert's supposed eligibility struck me as odd and inadequate.
“I have a Nickelback concert to go to and I am devastated“
Lolololololol
This is a weird play for the officials too because on a field goal formation, none of the deep officials are in their normal spots. They're positioned to officiate a kick and are not in the best position to officiate a fake. So when this play breaks down, it could very well have been a "oh I thought it was your call" scenario. More than likely they saw 68 and figured he was an ineligible receiver, so therefore pass interference doesn't apply. They should have thrown, then asked the question of his eligibility.
I just came across a rule in another sport that I would love to see these guys do a deep dive on. The rule in question came about before the fourth ever running of the Indianapolis 500 in 1914. The new rule of that day, alcohol consumption while racing will no longer be allowed.
I love this rule comes into being because basically the NFL was like "Yep, we f--k'ed up a BASIC call... again."
I assume this is also why these days when a player signals himself as eligible, they announce it on the mic.
6:42 💪
Ed Hochuli: Confer with THESE!
BRIGHT EYES LIFTED REFERENCE!!
The caveat of “before play is resumed” is interesting. Would that even be applicable to Giants/49ers game? As the call stood, there was no play to resume. It seems to me a ref could make a game ending call and be done with it because there is no play to resume.
Yep. The down should have been replayed...offsetting penalties
Was this the call that Steve Mariucci called a "bummer"?
Ineligible receiver is such a dumb rule in the first place tbh
why are there so many cuts in this video? who is going through all the footage and adding these cuts and why?
02 was a terrible year to be any kind of a Giants fan. Poor Barry.
Trey Junkin was a 19 year veteran of the NFL as a long snapper but that just wasn't his day
YEAAH WEIRD RULES
A rule the referees forgot about at a certain saints/rams game. And I'm a giants fan to
Those who want a series of just Ed Hochuli over-explaining the application of rules for football and other sports, say "Aye"
They woulda missed again anyway. Junkin had the yips on the all snaps that day
I also climax when I get forced
;)
Wait, what would have offset, ineligible man which was invalid, and PI? Wouldn't the ineligible man be not-existent because a ref speaks up and says he was eligible, therefore PI?
A different player was called for ineligible man downfield, so that penalty would still have applied.
Where was the Giants coach protesting the call? Doesn't he know his lineman was a eligible receiver?
2:10….let me stop you right there. I remember this season visibly cause, oddly enough, I was a Kerry Collins loving , Linkin Park listening Giants fan and at 14 this was the best Giants team, even better the one that went to the super bowl a couple years prior.
There was a reason Trey Junkin was snapping. Special teams was an absolute Achilles heel to this team and was always gonna be the demise of their season. So it’s absolutely not impossible the same exact thing or worse would’ve happened lol
Didn’t the Giants blow a 38-3 lead in that divisional playoff game?
How has that moment not been revisited?
Perhaps Jeremy Shockey shouldn’t have dropped a TD in the 3rd quarter
That God rule would’ve been great for the “not a clear recovery” kickoff recovery fumble-non-fumble… IYKYK…
This rule should be improved. These conferences should be heard on the broadcast, so we know, as fans, what the officials are thinking.
Is that Scott Steiner?
Speaking of 2002, would be *great* if the NBA had this rule during the 2002 Western Finals so the Kings didn’t have to be robbed!
Loving Kerry Collin must suck....I only remember him looking SO scared to even throw the ball in the Super Bowl.
The Ravens took that Superbowl Like a Big Brother took his little brother's candy.
REPLAY THE '02 PLAYOFFS!
I feel like the Giants don’t deserve an apology here. The defender is clearly chasing the left guard (who IS illegally downfield) before the throw, then turns upfield to make a play on Suebert and commits DPI to catch up. If not for the offensive foul, the DPI most likely doesn’t happen because the defender is with him step for step. It’s like getting arrested for self defense.