I've had a real tough time committing to a legion for Horus Heresy but these videos have helped immensely. My problem is that I love so many of the legions for so many different reasons. But I think I've settled on World Eaters. Kharn is a great character, Angron is tragic, the rules are fun and not broken but still impactful, I have always liked white color schemes, and the flexibility of making a melee force/ a tank force/ loyalist war hounds just means that my personal hobby dollar will go far. I still like the idea of adding to my 40k blood angels with some heresy era stuff, and I'd love a small detachment of iron warriors or death guard. But I think those are reasonable additions for the future. So anyways, thanks for the detailed videos to help my indecisive self choose.
Good review of my beloved legion. I was happy they reworded rage to +1A always (which stacks). I think the biggest problem for WE in this edition is the weapon skill chart changes. In 1.0, the tactical squad was the workhorse: with hatred, a tactical would hit 0.75 of every hit against any unit, with S5 rerolling 1s. Now, a tactical or despoiler hits .5 or .333 of the time and is super meh. No more Exhortation of butchery for +1A. The WS +1 in a challenge was huge. Are WE really a combat legion now? An already shooty game (1.0) went for the nuke option all round with shooting. I can only see meteor hammers on red hannd destroyers (although 15pts.....) everywhere else, barb hook lash (rend 5++, +1 initiative), except characters (falax). Interestingly, Delvarus cannot be built (2 twohanded weapons). Multicharge was a massive boon for WE, tying up multiple units. The restrictions on BerzerkerAssault to prevent any multi charge is a massive let down. It feels like WE were written with drawbacks and balance, then one sees other legions (e.g. vi, vii) and it is ridiculous. Total mess of an edition. Angron gets hit on 3+ in combat. Angron.
I don’t think Angron gets hit on a 3+ in a challenge because challenges use the model WS not the majority WS of the unit. So keep him, and everyone else he is with, in duels, which really fits the world eaters.
I’ve been playing a slow grow league for a couple of weeks and I can easily say that rampagers put in work provided that you choose the right targets. Attach a chaplain consul warlord with butchers claws with them give them jump packs and watch them delete infantry units. In my opinion falax blades are a good choice since they give +1 int in a challenge along with an extra attack.
Yeah, I think the Falax Blades are the way to go. Killing blow and all that on the other weapons, sure, that's all fine I guess. But the blades won't drop below 4+ on to wound, and pack an ap2 on 4+. That'll put more wounds on a dreadnought than fishing for saving throw rolls of 1 with some of the other weapons. Plus you get the additional attack for paired weapons.
@@TheOuterCircle Either way, I hope people play them mixed. I've only been on the recieving end of World Eaters and it wasn't fun. Rending as a rule is bonkers in it's construction, what with combining having the always wound on x mechanic paired with ap2. At 4+ I feel like they intended for it to be breaching..
At my LGS I had quite a lot of fun with rampagers with a mix of weapons and jump packs. Berzerker Assault let them make charges at a ridiculous +4 to the roll due to fast movers getting an additional +2. My Salamanders playing buddy's eyes popped out of his head when I told him how many attacks each of them had on the charge
The unwieldy rule should come with brackets denoting which initiative level it should strike at with power fists being unwieldy (1) and excortiator unwieldy (3) or unwieldy (2)
One thing about Ravening Madmen and Angron is that the WS3 only affects majority WS, not the WS of any model. As written, I think this means that models in challenges still use their WS when rolling to be hit and not the majority WS3 of the unit. I think this is intentional and thematic: they fight well on their own but are a liability to those around them.
Rampagers should just take falax blades always, as they have rending and rending auto wounds, when goes off. Puls you get the bonus attack for having 2 weapons, so on the change they have 5 attacks each at WS 5 auto wound on 4+ at AP 2
There is a good combo for the meteor hammer with a warlord with butcher claws since it puts them at s8 (so instadeath) on the charge at iniciative 5. But yeah, falax blades are the better one overall
War Hounds forever!!! Back when the XIIth Legion fought with honor, duty, and brotherhood. Before the Red Angel of Nuceria tainted them with his madness.
Just spam 15 men squads of rampagers with twin falax blades and they will do the job. A 15 men squad of rampagers with twin falax blades and a Chaplain will even be dangerous for a 10 men elite terminator squad, as they strike at their initiative, while the terminators will most likely be unwieldy thanks to thunder hammers. So you are going to kill like 6 terminators before they can even hit you back, that's pretty solid. Give them jumppacks and they become very fast and versatile.
I have built a mechanised army with them as I thought that would be fun and so far I have enjoyed all my games with them. I find my tanks do most the work in turn one and two then once I’m in range I dump all the troops out the rhinos and let them go wild. It seems to be working so for for me and I find it fun to play which is the main thing.
I'm going to be taking a 10 man unit of red butchers withightning claws. The Devoured will have a grenade harness, lightning claw, and chainfist. They look too cool not to take that way!
2 things to add for this and future posts 1) it looks like strong deny units are more important for your army list overall than Line scoring units since some missions don't need line units 2) in rites of war where your unit becomes a troops choice but isn't scoring its not so bad for some armies. in my night lords I'm taken terror squads for compulsory troop slots then reconnaissance sniper units for my scoring non compulsory troops. that saved me the 200points tactical squad tax and still got me 2 scoring units with snipers to help night lords pin more stuff and take advantage of there army buff so with world eaters berserk assault take 2 rampagers as troops then use reconnaissance squads as your line units with snipers, melta bombs, close combat weapons,
I’ve found Rampagers with meteor hammers having been working really well against Contemptors when they get the charge off hitting on 4s wounding on 4s with breaching 5+ and all before the Contemptor gets to swing is pretty good although expect to lose some Rampagers when the dreads blow up. And thanks for the tip about getting meteor hammers from AoS Wrath mongers in previous WE vid.
Fun fact, when taking Falax blades you pretty much swap one weapon for two (since you take a singular "caedere weapon" and than you pick which one you want. So on characters that can exchange multiple weapons (praetors, consuls etc), you can take a pair of Falax Blades AND another weapon (specialist one for a +1A for paired specialists? - don't know if that would work but sounds cool).Pretty neat. Also the "downside" of always chargin 12 inches is not really a downside (since it takes place on your turn you can play around this), if enemy puts some chaff (to e.g pull your squad out of cover) all you need to do is to either shoot them with weapon that prevents charges (bolter, combi-weapons etc), or just declare run and move 1 or 0 inches - since your unit ran it cannot charge. It's very easy to play around when you think about it. Considering Red Butchers - I agree that they are bad although I really love them. They seem to be made to clear hordes of low - tier units (where -1S MIGHT actually make a difference)...but in an army that is already tailored to slaughtering lots of cheap chaff units...Rampagers with Falax Blades and a Butcher's Claws praetor or Chaplain Consul are gnarly though :P
I think falax blades are the best caedere weapon option and I don’t think it’s very close. Like you can look at that example in the video where you mention a 15 man rampager squad with excoriators as a possible answer to a dreadnought. If you the math, a 15 man falax blades squad does double the damage on average. Excoriator: 60 x (1/2) x ((1/3) + (1/2) x (1/3)) x 2 x (1/6) + 60 x (1/2) x ((1/6) + (1/2) x (1/6)) x (1/6 ) = 6.25 unsaved wounds after instant death Falax: 75 x (1/2) x (1/2) x (2/3) = 12.5 unsaved wounds And excoriators have unwieldy, so the dread is gonna get to kill a few of the excoriator rampagers before attacks are even made. Against anything with a 2+ save you’ll find the math will be similar, and most things that the 5+ murderous strike will be valuable against have 2 wounds. I think the excoriator is a halfhearted combination of a lightning claw and a power fist that performs neither’s job particularly well. The other two weapons are ok, but two handed and rending/breaching 5+ will make them worse than the falax blades against basically any target. Maybe the meteor hammers are better into non marines cause of the ap4. Hilariously, falax blade rampager squads are even better at anti tank than any of the other caedere weapons. Because of the number of attacks, furious charge, the weapon’s +1S, and rending 4+, you’ve actually got a decent chance at glancing hull points off an AV 12 or 13 vehicle.
The other day I played a game with Berserker Assault rite. A boeing of 10 crimson paladins with a praetor and a librarian was stuck in difficult terrain and I was kiting them with several units. But then I got too close, 2 of my units had to attempt charge from exactly 12 inches, both rolled 12 and дied miserably.
Late to party but having just played EC I feel like WE need a unit or rule similar to the EC rules of sonic shriekers or making an enemy worse initiative. This could be flavoured by making world eaters +1 T on turn they charge
The thing that makes me sad about our special units is anything they can do, you can usually get the same or better results with generic units. Command Squads are pretty on par with Rampagers if you dont have a plan for Cadre weapons. Butchers only purpose seems to be as a unit for berserker characters to join, since generic Terminators do almost the same job for way less. Worse part is that Angron actual turns off their defensive ability even though they both have the same downside of being hit at WS3
Rerolling a 2+ fleshbane vs a Dread is still a good way for a marine to wound one in melee. Agree on Red Butchers. Maybe worst "unique legion terminators" in the game, even worse than Lernean Terminators. Luckily, Rampagers are amazing. With jump packs, I see them 2nd only to Dawn Breakers for jump infantry (and only because Dawn Breakers are crazy under-costed).
hey macca I was wondering what is the difference between units that are rated as “strong units” and others like “excellent value” is there a hierarchy you have in mind? just curious
I think it’s sad that a lot of the stuff that made world eaters feel cool last Ed was sort of made worse. Idk but the fact that they are better at shooting now seems dumb. And the ravening madmen is awful with the removal of the feel no pain saves that they could have.
Is the Predator squadrons in Berserker Assault only 0-1 can be taken as Fast Attack? If not, youcould take essentially 6 heavy Support choices if you did take 3 squadrons of Predators as Fast Attack, right?
@@TheOuterCircle Well, for bigger battles. I have been used to local meta where 4k+points is normal game in both Fantasy and 40k. Has been that since '90s here...
I actually disagree with the -1 to enemy strength for Ravening Madman being weak. This is a great protection during fight sub-phase. Sure you have your weapons like thunder hammers with brutal and you have other instance weapons.. But this reduces all other x2 weapons down str 7 typically and protects your units against powerful weapons like paragon blades, power axes, and chain axes which would increase enemy chances of wounding your T 4. Suddenly their terminators are wounding at 3+ instead of 2+ or their chainaxe wielding unit is back to base Str with 4+ instead of 3+. These are significant aids that can change your odds.That makes your red butchers and 2 wound infantry survive what would be instant death to them. Suddenly a marine that would be outright killed by ap 2 weapon might survive to another round. Also when fighting other infantry all their attacks going down to str 3 when your attacks are now str 5 rending with chain axes is absolutly brutal! Add into that the extra attack WE get and you will easily win most fights when its infantry v. infantry. On top of that if you consider their rules that add +2 in to run and Charge your general infantry will be a great threat to theirs.
Instant death is sadly not affected by this rule. So a power fist with the -1S modifier will still cause instant death for some reason. WE really have been punished this edition...
So, very middle of the road review… shame, I was hoping I could decide on this one whether to go ahead and slap some blue paint on my poor White Scars. Guess I will have to wait and see if the opinion on the WS is as despondent as my own perception of their new standing, to calibrate my understanding of World Eaters against that. I get that even the worst legions can work if built in a very specific way, but if we have to do things like build gun line World Eaters, melee hordes of Thousand Sons, or White Scars Dreadnought spam just to have a chance on the tabletop (instead of their traditional builds, or even something outside the box that makes sense within the wider legion character) then what’s the point? Might as well be playing flavour of the month 40k.
I've had a real tough time committing to a legion for Horus Heresy but these videos have helped immensely. My problem is that I love so many of the legions for so many different reasons. But I think I've settled on World Eaters. Kharn is a great character, Angron is tragic, the rules are fun and not broken but still impactful, I have always liked white color schemes, and the flexibility of making a melee force/ a tank force/ loyalist war hounds just means that my personal hobby dollar will go far.
I still like the idea of adding to my 40k blood angels with some heresy era stuff, and I'd love a small detachment of iron warriors or death guard. But I think those are reasonable additions for the future.
So anyways, thanks for the detailed videos to help my indecisive self choose.
Good review of my beloved legion.
I was happy they reworded rage to +1A always (which stacks).
I think the biggest problem for WE in this edition is the weapon skill chart changes. In 1.0, the tactical squad was the workhorse: with hatred, a tactical would hit 0.75 of every hit against any unit, with S5 rerolling 1s. Now, a tactical or despoiler hits .5 or .333 of the time and is super meh. No more Exhortation of butchery for +1A. The WS +1 in a challenge was huge. Are WE really a combat legion now?
An already shooty game (1.0) went for the nuke option all round with shooting.
I can only see meteor hammers on red hannd destroyers (although 15pts.....) everywhere else, barb hook lash (rend 5++, +1 initiative), except characters (falax). Interestingly, Delvarus cannot be built (2 twohanded weapons).
Multicharge was a massive boon for WE, tying up multiple units. The restrictions on BerzerkerAssault to prevent any multi charge is a massive let down. It feels like WE were written with drawbacks and balance, then one sees other legions (e.g. vi, vii) and it is ridiculous. Total mess of an edition.
Angron gets hit on 3+ in combat. Angron.
I don’t think Angron gets hit on a 3+ in a challenge because challenges use the model WS not the majority WS of the unit. So keep him, and everyone else he is with, in duels, which really fits the world eaters.
@@Infernal_Puppet yeah that makes sense to me
I’ve been playing a slow grow league for a couple of weeks and I can easily say that rampagers put in work provided that you choose the right targets. Attach a chaplain consul warlord with butchers claws with them give them jump packs and watch them delete infantry units. In my opinion falax blades are a good choice since they give +1 int in a challenge along with an extra attack.
Yeah, I think the Falax Blades are the way to go. Killing blow and all that on the other weapons, sure, that's all fine I guess. But the blades won't drop below 4+ on to wound, and pack an ap2 on 4+. That'll put more wounds on a dreadnought than fishing for saving throw rolls of 1 with some of the other weapons. Plus you get the additional attack for paired weapons.
@@danielstennert1263 I agree on Falax Blades, but where the axes would shine is vs Castellax and Mech.
@@TheOuterCircle Either way, I hope people play them mixed. I've only been on the recieving end of World Eaters and it wasn't fun. Rending as a rule is bonkers in it's construction, what with combining having the always wound on x mechanic paired with ap2. At 4+ I feel like they intended for it to be breaching..
At my LGS I had quite a lot of fun with rampagers with a mix of weapons and jump packs. Berzerker Assault let them make charges at a ridiculous +4 to the roll due to fast movers getting an additional +2. My Salamanders playing buddy's eyes popped out of his head when I told him how many attacks each of them had on the charge
The unwieldy rule should come with brackets denoting which initiative level it should strike at with power fists being unwieldy (1) and excortiator unwieldy (3) or unwieldy (2)
One thing about Ravening Madmen and Angron is that the WS3 only affects majority WS, not the WS of any model. As written, I think this means that models in challenges still use their WS when rolling to be hit and not the majority WS3 of the unit. I think this is intentional and thematic: they fight well on their own but are a liability to those around them.
Rampagers should just take falax blades always, as they have rending and rending auto wounds, when goes off.
Puls you get the bonus attack for having 2 weapons, so on the change they have 5 attacks each at WS 5 auto wound on 4+ at AP 2
There is a good combo for the meteor hammer with a warlord with butcher claws since it puts them at s8 (so instadeath) on the charge at iniciative 5. But yeah, falax blades are the better one overall
Been waiting for this one. I would love to make a loyalist World Eaters force.
War Hounds forever!!! Back when the XIIth Legion fought with honor, duty, and brotherhood. Before the Red Angel of Nuceria tainted them with his madness.
@@auroralee you are a poet
Just spam 15 men squads of rampagers with twin falax blades and they will do the job. A 15 men squad of rampagers with twin falax blades and a Chaplain will even be dangerous for a 10 men elite terminator squad, as they strike at their initiative, while the terminators will most likely be unwieldy thanks to thunder hammers. So you are going to kill like 6 terminators before they can even hit you back, that's pretty solid. Give them jumppacks and they become very fast and versatile.
I have built a mechanised army with them as I thought that would be fun and so far I have enjoyed all my games with them. I find my tanks do most the work in turn one and two then once I’m in range I dump all the troops out the rhinos and let them go wild. It seems to be working so for for me and I find it fun to play which is the main thing.
I'm going to be taking a 10 man unit of red butchers withightning claws. The Devoured will have a grenade harness, lightning claw, and chainfist. They look too cool not to take that way!
2 things to add for this and future posts
1) it looks like strong deny units are more important for your army list overall than Line scoring units since some missions don't need line units
2) in rites of war where your unit becomes a troops choice but isn't scoring its not so bad for some armies. in my night lords I'm taken terror squads for compulsory troop slots then reconnaissance sniper units for my scoring non compulsory troops. that saved me the 200points tactical squad tax and still got me 2 scoring units with snipers to help night lords pin more stuff and take advantage of there army buff
so with world eaters berserk assault take 2 rampagers as troops then use reconnaissance squads as your line units with snipers, melta bombs, close combat weapons,
I’ve found Rampagers with meteor hammers having been working really well against Contemptors when they get the charge off hitting on 4s wounding on 4s with breaching 5+ and all before the Contemptor gets to swing is pretty good although expect to lose some Rampagers when the dreads blow up.
And thanks for the tip about getting meteor hammers from AoS Wrath mongers in previous WE vid.
Rending on the Falax is better, wounds at ap2 on a 4+.
Being brand new to Horus heresy, I would have loved some direction in making a list based on your conclusions
Fun fact, when taking Falax blades you pretty much swap one weapon for two (since you take a singular "caedere weapon" and than you pick which one you want. So on characters that can exchange multiple weapons (praetors, consuls etc), you can take a pair of Falax Blades AND another weapon (specialist one for a +1A for paired specialists? - don't know if that would work but sounds cool).Pretty neat. Also the "downside" of always chargin 12 inches is not really a downside (since it takes place on your turn you can play around this), if enemy puts some chaff (to e.g pull your squad out of cover) all you need to do is to either shoot them with weapon that prevents charges (bolter, combi-weapons etc), or just declare run and move 1 or 0 inches - since your unit ran it cannot charge. It's very easy to play around when you think about it.
Considering Red Butchers - I agree that they are bad although I really love them. They seem to be made to clear hordes of low - tier units (where -1S MIGHT actually make a difference)...but in an army that is already tailored to slaughtering lots of cheap chaff units...Rampagers with Falax Blades and a Butcher's Claws praetor or Chaplain Consul are gnarly though :P
I think falax blades are the best caedere weapon option and I don’t think it’s very close.
Like you can look at that example in the video where you mention a 15 man rampager squad with excoriators as a possible answer to a dreadnought.
If you the math, a 15 man falax blades squad does double the damage on average.
Excoriator: 60 x (1/2) x ((1/3) + (1/2) x (1/3)) x 2 x (1/6) + 60 x (1/2) x ((1/6) + (1/2) x (1/6)) x (1/6 ) = 6.25 unsaved wounds after instant death
Falax: 75 x (1/2) x (1/2) x (2/3) = 12.5 unsaved wounds
And excoriators have unwieldy, so the dread is gonna get to kill a few of the excoriator rampagers before attacks are even made.
Against anything with a 2+ save you’ll find the math will be similar, and most things that the 5+ murderous strike will be valuable against have 2 wounds. I think the excoriator is a halfhearted combination of a lightning claw and a power fist that performs neither’s job particularly well.
The other two weapons are ok, but two handed and rending/breaching 5+ will make them worse than the falax blades against basically any target. Maybe the meteor hammers are better into non marines cause of the ap4.
Hilariously, falax blade rampager squads are even better at anti tank than any of the other caedere weapons. Because of the number of attacks, furious charge, the weapon’s +1S, and rending 4+, you’ve actually got a decent chance at glancing hull points off an AV 12 or 13 vehicle.
I do agree, I just like the look of the axes more.
@@TheOuterCircle certified worldeater player response
The other day I played a game with Berserker Assault rite.
A boeing of 10 crimson paladins with a praetor and a librarian was stuck in difficult terrain and I was kiting them with several units. But then I got too close, 2 of my units had to attempt charge from exactly 12 inches, both rolled 12 and дied miserably.
Late to party but having just played EC I feel like WE need a unit or rule similar to the EC rules of sonic shriekers or making an enemy worse initiative. This could be flavoured by making world eaters +1 T on turn they charge
Took chainaxes from rampagers
Can’t have shit on Deshea
The thing that makes me sad about our special units is anything they can do, you can usually get the same or better results with generic units. Command Squads are pretty on par with Rampagers if you dont have a plan for Cadre weapons. Butchers only purpose seems to be as a unit for berserker characters to join, since generic Terminators do almost the same job for way less. Worse part is that Angron actual turns off their defensive ability even though they both have the same downside of being hit at WS3
Holy crap, Legion terminators my Learaen might beat in combt?
Excorciator chainaxe will serve better as Headsman axes
Fun fact: excoriator chainaxe is not a chain weapon.
Rerolling a 2+ fleshbane vs a Dread is still a good way for a marine to wound one in melee.
Agree on Red Butchers. Maybe worst "unique legion terminators" in the game, even worse than Lernean Terminators. Luckily, Rampagers are amazing. With jump packs, I see them 2nd only to Dawn Breakers for jump infantry (and only because Dawn Breakers are crazy under-costed).
Kind of like the idea of the Berserker rule. But yeah in practice it suuuuuuux...
Company Champion with Falax Blades? 🤔
hey macca I was wondering what is the difference between units that are rated as “strong units” and others like “excellent value” is there a hierarchy you have in mind? just curious
Excellent value is an ok unit, but at a cheap price, a strong unit is one that will really carry its own weight, even if it's not cheap.
@@TheOuterCircle thank you for the clarification!
I think it’s sad that a lot of the stuff that made world eaters feel cool last Ed was sort of made worse. Idk but the fact that they are better at shooting now seems dumb. And the ravening madmen is awful with the removal of the feel no pain saves that they could have.
Is the Predator squadrons in Berserker Assault only 0-1 can be taken as Fast Attack? If not, youcould take essentially 6 heavy Support choices if you did take 3 squadrons of Predators as Fast Attack, right?
Sure, but how many points do you have to spend?
@@TheOuterCircle Well, for bigger battles. I have been used to local meta where 4k+points is normal game in both Fantasy and 40k. Has been that since '90s here...
@@TheOuterCircle Well, it was more of hypothechical question anyway etc ....
Can you add the Khorn Berzerkers to the army, yet?
No, their elite legion units are as close as they come.
I actually disagree with the -1 to enemy strength for Ravening Madman being weak. This is a great protection during fight sub-phase. Sure you have your weapons like thunder hammers with brutal and you have other instance weapons.. But this reduces all other x2 weapons down str 7 typically and protects your units against powerful weapons like paragon blades, power axes, and chain axes which would increase enemy chances of wounding your T 4. Suddenly their terminators are wounding at 3+ instead of 2+ or their chainaxe wielding unit is back to base Str with 4+ instead of 3+. These are significant aids that can change your odds.That makes your red butchers and 2 wound infantry survive what would be instant death to them. Suddenly a marine that would be outright killed by ap 2 weapon might survive to another round. Also when fighting other infantry all their attacks going down to str 3 when your attacks are now str 5 rending with chain axes is absolutly brutal! Add into that the extra attack WE get and you will easily win most fights when its infantry v. infantry. On top of that if you consider their rules that add +2 in to run and Charge your general infantry will be a great threat to theirs.
Instant death is sadly not affected by this rule. So a power fist with the -1S modifier will still cause instant death for some reason. WE really have been punished this edition...
yeah unfortunately Red Butchers look pretty sad compared to other legions elites like suzerians and cenobium knights ;_; still look cool tho
Red Butchers are BY FAR the worst unit in the entire fucking game, it's just sad.
All these "must charge" rules, if I was camped on an objective could I get around this by say firing a rapid fire weapon, now I can't charge?
Yes
nice that makes a case for worldeater tactical marines with bolters
I'm not a huge WE fan, but I love the Red Butcher Models, this is kinda sad they stink
Yeah, they are the worst unit in the entire game.
World Eaters as a shooting army?? Heresy!!! 😆
So, very middle of the road review… shame, I was hoping I could decide on this one whether to go ahead and slap some blue paint on my poor White Scars. Guess I will have to wait and see if the opinion on the WS is as despondent as my own perception of their new standing, to calibrate my understanding of World Eaters against that.
I get that even the worst legions can work if built in a very specific way, but if we have to do things like build gun line World Eaters, melee hordes of Thousand Sons, or White Scars Dreadnought spam just to have a chance on the tabletop (instead of their traditional builds, or even something outside the box that makes sense within the wider legion character) then what’s the point? Might as well be playing flavour of the month 40k.