Unpacking The Myths Of King Arthur | After Dark
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- čas přidán 22. 05. 2024
- Merlin. Lancelot. Guinevere. Excalibur. The world of King Arthur is littered with instantly recognisable names. But where did the medieval legends about Camelot and Avalon come from? What did they mean to the medieval peoples that told them? And what do they mean for us now?
In this episode of After Dark, Dr. Antony Delany and Dr. Maddy Pelling are joined by medieval historian Dr. Eleanor Janega to take a deep dive into 'Arthuriana' - the MCU of the Middle Ages.
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#historyhit #kingarthur #myths
00:00 - The World of King Arthur
3:23 - The Characters of Arthurian Legend
15:14 - Magical Landscapes and Objects
17:46 - Weapons, Swords and the Legend of Excalibur
19:41 - The Sword in the Stone
24:16 - Merlin and the Lady of the Lake
28:38 - The Tragic Tale of Guinevere
33:36 - The Impact of Arthurian Legend on British History
In the discussion about arms, I couldn't help but think of Monty Python: "Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."
There's some lovely mud down here!
True executive power comes from a mandate from the masses, not some bizarre aquatic ceremony
@dereks1264 hello, your joke made my day
@@ChrisOliver4307that is not executive leadership, that is charisma. The lead lemming has charisma!
The constitutional peasants are my favourite bit
Dennis: I told you. We're an anarcho-syndicalist commune. We take it in turns to
act as sort of supreme executive officer for the week.
Arthur: Yes.
Dennis: But all the decisions of that officer have to be ratified at a special
biweekly meeting...
Arthur: Yes, I see.
Dennis:...by a simple majority. In the case of purely internal affairs...
Arthur: Be quiet.
Dennis:...require two thirds majority. In the case of old ladys...
The thing is - this bit is actually based on a peasant commune in Germany who operated this system for decades. Except "old ladies" was external affairs.
When Eleanor takes part in anything, it becomes an automatic hit.
Agreed. She's dope.
It’s magic.
She thinks magic is a verb so badabing, badabung she's not that great.
Given her many misconceptions (Excalibur being the sword in the stone), she is the one-eyed among the blind. And to think that these two somehow got Ph.D.s.
@@str.77 And what’s your PhD in; yucking other folks’ yum? It’s certainly not in linguistics, or you’d understand that definitions are constantly in flux and informed by common usage. I’d also assume it’s not in history, or you’d understand that the democratization of history through programs like this helps to expand interest in the field. Magic yourself back to your trash can, Oscar.
I'm a simple woman. I see Eleanor Janega, I click
Goes for men as well. You know her co-podcast 'we are not so different' ?
same
EXACTLY!
Eleanor Janega is one of the most fascinating historians to listen to.
She's really great. I love her
Dr J is one of my favorite presenters on HistoryHit TV!
One novel that tells of the Arthurian legend from the perspective of the women is Marion Zimmer Bradley’s “The Mists of Avalon.”
Thanks for the episode.
Reading it now for the second time. Love the Arthurian legends of old; after the Romans and before Christianity took over the country. Lots of tension in various aspects.
This is such a good version. Read the book years ago and I've never forgot it!
Wow, i loved that book.
Did you watch the movie version? I loved it.
I came here to say this!
Wait. So did Arthur and his Knights have horses, or did they use coconuts?
"strange women lying in ponds distributing swords,..."
no basis for a system of government
Can't believe no mention of Mists of Avalon
Same
There's a few dozen novels not mentioned. Also a RPG game book that's regarded as so well researched it's used as a college reference work.
Particularly when they're talking about a feminist retelling!
Maybe they don't know about it. That's why she said she wishes someone would do a feminist retelling. Do you think if she knew about The Mists of Avalon she'd say that?
Maybe that’s due to the problematic author? Not only was the author’s husband a convicted pedophile, but her daughter has repeatedly and publicly identified her mother as not merely an enabler, but an active participant in the abuse, and which she and her brother were victims.
Kinda changes how you view MZB’s books once you read the reporting on her husband’s conviction and her daughter’s testimony.
My favourite historian discussing one of my favourite stories of all time. Yesss! 😄👏👏👏
To answer a question posed in the video: The Mists of Avalon may not be exactly feminist, but it does tell the story from the perspective of Morgan.
I can't count the number of times I've watched "Excalibur" (1981), but my all time favourite is "Camelot" (2011), where Eva Green plays Morgana.
A forgotten movie/ miniseries is Merlin from 1998 with Sam Neil as Merlin and Helena Bonham Carter as Morgana.
@@marcusfridh8489 And how about the character of Mab. I loved that character.
@@marcusfridh8489 And a very young Lena Headey!
When I was very young, around ten or so, I first read about King Arthur and became a lifelong Anglophile……I’m 64 now and found out around ten years ago on an ancestry site that my maternal family immigrated to the US from Somerset…..I guess my intuition was on the mark!
My favorite contemporary (re)telling of the Arthur/Merlin legend is Mary Stewart's Merlin Trilogy; The Crystal Cave, The Hollow Hills & The Last Enchantment. It reads like historical fiction & borrows heavily from all the early historical writers & later Norman French romance sagas. (She cites all her sources in the appendix) She also gives the female characters more agency & motivation altho it is technically Merlin's memoirs. 2nd favorite is probably Mists of Avalon by Marion Zimmer Bradley since it's entirely from all the female characters pov & brings in a much more pagan pre Christian culture in conflict/ contrasted with the burgeoning new faith of Christianity. Definitely more of a high fantasy than Mary Stewart's but all great reads :)
My favorite take on King Arthur is “The Once and Future King,” by TH White. Why does no one else spend any time with Sir Pellinore and the Questin’ Beast?
For a feminist take on the story of Arthur, I really loved Marion Zimmer Bradley’s The Mists of Avalon. 28:55
I was going to mention that as well - I’ve been reading it again and again in my late teens.
This was brilliant, Love Dr J!
There is an audible original that centers around Morgan Le Fay. “Morgan is my name ” book 2 comes out. It’s a good read
Love this format! Getting an expert/scholar address major sectors of a given subject is pretty damn interesting
There was a movie where Morgana is the lead figure played by ER's Julianna Marguiles, and one from the point of view of Merlin played by Sam Neil. I recommend both.
Yes! Mists of Avalon and Merlin. Love them both
Love the Sam Neil version
In my memory they were on the same series, I didn’t realize it was two separate shows.
And frankly, a far better and intelligent overview of the story than what was discussed here!
Thank you ( history Hit) channel for sharing this wonderful introduction video and thrilled conversations about ( unpacking the myth of King Arthur| After Dark).
The Once and Future King ❤❤❤.
Favourite book re Arthur - The Winter King - series by Bernard Corwell. Awesome. Read it many times.
But obviously Monty Python and the watery tart who gives him a scimitar- no basis for governance! 😂
Film Excalibur - loved it
Great chat
Okay, officially in love with Dr J. Magnificent.
I’m confused about why authurian tales are becoming popular again but I’m not mad! Loved this from when I was a kid !
Good episode. Cheers!
Fascinating, thank you!
The "fwiinng!" when pulling the sword from the stone 😊
I'm doing a special lesson about King Arthur for my IVth grade English class and this has been a great help in preparing it. Thank you
There is an amazing rendition of this story told in the perspective of the Morgan Le Fay and puts it into a real life setting.
I'm becoming a major Eleanor Janega fangirl.
I just watched Excalibur the other week so its impeccable timing.
Great stories and history, cringe pro-degenerate talk
An interesting video, with a particular angle, which I found absorbing, Eleanor is always great. But, I felt that some very important areas of the myth were not really explained. For example in some traditions Merlin was actually ‘The Merlin’ which was a title bestowed upon certain individuals in positions of power. There are many details such as this, which are perhaps worth researching, as these ideas shine a light upon the more Celtic roots of the story. A xx
Its such a massive story, with so many heads. There is only so much that can be fitted into roughly half an hour.
The book the mists of Avalon tells the story of the women who influenced Arthur .
I read that many years ago👌
Thank you, this was very interesting to me, I had no idea about the Welsh stories of King Arthur, I will have to see if I can find them.
King Arthur originally started off as a Celtic Briton folk hero fighting against Anglo Saxons
A read a book many, many moons ago called Prince Umbra without going into the plot of it one of the things posited in the book is that the sword from the stone was much more literal. Arthur was the first in Briton to figure out iron working. While that obviously doesn't fit with the time period between the Romans leaving and the Anglo-Saxons coming when the Arthurian legend came about it does make me wonder if that aspect of the story got picked up from some much older myth.
Dr. Eleanor Janega's rap inspired me to pen a ditty:
My name's King Arthur and I'm here to say,
I like hunting boar in the normal way,
I got rings on my fingers and a sword in a rock,
The guys wanna be me and the ladies love my ----.
ELEANOR!! Hope you get to do more stuff with PDX and CK, greatly enjoyed it!
Thanks.
What about Sir Galahad? He, too, is one of the goodly Grail Knights and a son of Lancelot.
He refused to leave Castle Anthrax
As a fantasy author I always found it interesting, and wondered since most legends and myths were based on universal truths what were some regarding King Arthur and Robin Hood.
Very interesting
00:00 - Journey into the realm of King Arthur, where chivalry, magic, and destiny intertwine in legendary tales.
3:23 - Get to know the iconic characters of Arthurian lore, from valiant knights to the enigmatic Merlin.
15:14 - Explore mystical landscapes and legendary objects that enrich the Arthurian stories.
17:46 - Uncover the myths surrounding Excalibur and the legendary weapons of Arthur's saga.
19:41 - Learn about the magical tale of the Sword in the Stone, the key to Arthur's destiny.
24:16 - Delve into the relationship between Merlin, the wise sorcerer, and the mystical Lady of the Lake.
28:38 - Witness the complex and sorrowful story of Guinevere, whose choices had profound consequences.
33:36 - Discover how Arthurian legend has left an enduring mark on British culture and history.
Dr. E.J. drove the topic straight to romance and gossip instead of the epic of humanity, the sense of destiny, loyalty and betrayal, blood and tears, etc.
I wonder why? 🤔
I think that’s an exaggeration yet, even so, those topics might just interest her. You make it sound like those aren’t legitimate areas for historians to explore.
The story of Tristan and Isolde is joined up to the Arthurian tales even though its origins is directly from Iberia.
Guinevere meeting her mother's ghost in the woods sounds a bit like Odysseus in the place where souls go and a bit like the story of Demeter.
Sir Bedevere...wasn't he the one explaining how the Earth is banana-shaped?
Could you please do a video about Robin Hood?!
Forget the middle age version,You must try Bernard Cornwell's Warlord Chronicles the best Arthurian and most realistic story set in the time it should be,and a lot of explaining of what is and could be real. A great three books.
We love Dr J xoxo
Author might start waking, more than Britain needs his help.
I thought the sword in the stone was a different sword than Excalibur
The Sam Neil movie,JUST THE 1ST ONE,..Merlin..IS BADASS!!LOVE IT!!...Sam ,Rutger,actress playing Queen Mab(sorry,her name slips me mind lol)...just good all around..🙃✌️🍻
The Marion Zimmer Bradley books come to mind as a somewhat more feminist Arthurian tale
It's so interesting the way people reveal their unquestioned assumptions about what we should think now. You know, when everything they "believe" is what their society told them to believe.
The Mists of Avalon is mostly a retelling of the arturian legend through a feminist eye, where women are not vilified and they are the main protagonists.
If you go to Brittany, the Broceliande Forest, the Arthur /Merlin Legend starts there, not Wales.
One of my favorite books when I was young was Marion Zimmer Bradley's The Mists of Avalon. That was maybe the feminist retelling the host was looking for?
I am fully here for Eleanor and Clark Kent.
I'm gobsmacked that Anthony Delaney asked "Is he Welsh"? in apparent shock! 2:40
Surely no historian is that ignorant of the sources of the Arthurian legends? Asked for the sake of the viewer/listener?
He said "Isn't he Welsh?" not "Is he Welsh?".
Maddy just talked about her interpretation of Arthur being part of English national identity. Anthony was challenging her viewpoint in a polite but confused way by asking "Isn't he Welsh?" instead of saying "He's not English, he's Welsh".
@@Dakkapow Ah! My bad - thank you
Team Gwain here!
Morgana La Fey 💜
I been wondering what Ms. Eleanor looks like ever since she joined the Gone Medieval team! Awesome episode!
She has presented many videos on History Hit already. Including the most viewed episode in the history of the channel.
Shocked that a Dr in art history did not know Arthurian legend began in Wales folklore. And she teaches others 🤯
You didn't watch more than a minute of this video before commenting, did you?
Yep. My thoughts exactly ( and I did watch more than 2 minutes) .
I always see Lancelot as a bit of an anti hero
Queen Eleanor.
"Magic being dormant in Britain," is indeed a good place to end, but it might also be a good place to invite Francis Young on to continue the discussion.
Mists of Avalon, written in the 80s I think, possibly 90s. Feminist af and a good read
Exactly!
Now I really wanna listen to Avalon by Roxy Music. One of the sexiest songs ever.
What do Dr. J’s earrings say???
Historical treat ❤
Yeah.. right
Feminist retelling? The Mists of Avalon series, and there was a movie (haven't seen it). MaA was a big best seller.
Thanks Elenor the Great
ELEANOR IS SOOOOO ATTRACTIVE 😊😊❤❤❤❤
I have to agree with you. Would love to see her wear sheer dark hose on some of her videos. Very sexy and brilliant woman.❤❤❤❤❤
I'm writing an animated series which portrays the fictional "Water Kingdom" as Arthuriana inspired/based on. Expect to find Morganna on the throne, spoiler spoiler.
Yeesh. The sword in the stone is to make the case that mere physical prowess is not enough to be the hero.
Merlin is a prophet in the Old Testament sense. He has magical powers for the purpose of warning and demonstration.
Makes me think of how the Addams Family is fundamentally a show about a man who is deeply in love with and absolutely sexually devoted to his wife.
If King 🤴 Arthur is to return when Britain 🇬🇧 needs him, he should have came back duing WWII
I think King Arthur: Legend of the Sword (2017) has to be the most bat-shit crazy version of the story! Guy Ritchie, 'nuff said!
Dark fool of terrors
Wooden mythological
Sword sheath specifics
#haiku #story #arthur
If he missed showing up for the wars of the roses, the civil war, or WWII I am pretty sure he wil notbe seen again
Isn’t Galahad the bastard son of Lancelot?
The Round Table is like Bully’s prize board.
Dr J = Watch
Just like Robin Hood make your own adventure
Id like to see the source for peasants bot being allowed to own swords, sure youre not mixing this up with feudal Japan?
Regarding a feminist take on the legend how about THE MISTS OF AVALON.
Someone should, like, count the number of "likes" in this. Like
Yeah, like, you know, it's like, you know, pretty annoying. I like, hate being stuck on a train with people, like, saying like, like every third word, like, you know..... Please stab me now! :P
Eleanor: Guinevere’s mother is being tormented in hell for being a vain hussy in life and is concerned about her daughter that’s following her example.
Dude at the side: What a great life!
Arghhhh 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️
Honestly, I hate that dismissive tone. But I guess that’s the new order of things. Anything that builds up or inspires virtue should be teared down in favor of hedonistic pleasure and a purposeless life.
The thumbnail spelling of Excalibur 🤦♀️
Excalibur NOT Escalibur!!!
In the thumbnail, what is ''Escalibur''? Oh yes, it's a typo ..... not a mythical sword.
Thank God she said Gawain correctly .....
Just a story. Saved you the trouble.
Correct. But a very interesting and significant story.
Just a rando dumb comment. Saved you the trouble.
I'm sorry. Clearly I missed the point of this. I hoped it would provide the historical backdrop to Arthursa's legend. Instead, it was an analysis of the meaning of the romanticised myth - who cares, it's a myth. Owain Ddantgwyn must be turning in his grave. If you are determined to keep the word "History" in your title, I suggest you do the whole thing again but with Graham Phillips this time. Well done for overusing the word "shagged" though. That added a lot.
get bent, mansplainer
I don't believe for a second that the Britons don't know their own heroes. Just poppycock that he belongs to other nations. I'm not talking about the obvious fantasy additions but battlefields and place names. The most serious investigation I've seen is by Alan Wilson. He claims Arthur has become a blend of 2 historical heroes. Otherwise, you are left explaining a really old Arthur who can fight Romans and Saxons in one lifespan. Obviously not possible. Wilson's books are hefty lumps of genealogies and history. I'm not saying he's correct but there's this saying it's all myth, still interesting esoterically. Then there's Wilson showing battle sites by name on old maps and taking you there. It's as if few people have taken our ancestor's stories seriously and investigated in depth. Then there's the suppression of the Welsh language and literature in the past and the assumption oral history is invalid or even non-existent, when often the locals and land can tell you. things.
Yes, he's always British (Welsh) but as a literary/fictional tradition he "belongs" to whomever tells stories about him. As they note French stories about Arthur are very old indeed and lend a lot to the mythology.
@@skepticalbadger There is no patent on his name and we are all at liberty to fantasize but I wouldn't tell a Zulu or Apache or anyone their heroes of legend weren't real and I definitely wouldn't try they don't " belong" to them or even they belong to anyone.
Eleanor lost me at how she says France.
I can smell the vaguely smuggled-in post modern tactics in here. probably not even intentional. but it's always important when talking about mythology that might involve wypipo that we insist on it not really having any origin, not being consistent, and having ties to those naughty nationalists who are morally inferior by default because... we say so
The single word that sums this up . Is camp. The two ladies almost compete, although Dr E. gleefully sweeps the board with shagging frequently alluded to. The younger one seems to want to bring tiresome political correctness into the myths, but even she goes with the myths as exciting foundational moral tales. The guy doesn't get much of a look in, which is further reduced by having a microphone in his face the size of a sideboard, as they do. All good fun !!
There is a feminist version out there, its called the Mist of Avalon.
How is it anything but a British tale? Have some pride girl. Ask follow up questions