How Much Composers Should Charge
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- čas přidán 18. 06. 2024
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0:00 Intro
0:49 Per hour/minute/project
2:16 Factors that influence pricing
5:02 Survival rate
7:57 Aspirational rate
8:51 Pitching your price
10:38 Your value
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Hey there! I'm a full-time media composer, passionate online educator, and obsessive coffee roaster. Through my CZcams channel, weekly newsletter, and online courses, I'll teach you how to master music-making and kickstart your composing career.
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You especially need to keep raising your prices to keep up with inflation and rising cost of living! Thank you for these videos. It really makes me feel like I chose the right career path. This is taking away so much of the stress I've been feeling since graduating last spring.
I'm a part-time composer and my biggest value lies in songwriting for projects. Do you feel the same formulas apply to songwriting as well? Or is that a completely different ball game?
bro, I can only image how much you will charge in couple of years,,,If you are going this rate
Brilliantly put! I'd also add one more bullet point:
Be aware not only of your self-worth but also of your perceived value, and see if there's a bit of a gap between the two. You might work out all the formulas and think that you deserve to be paid a lot but at the end of the day if your perceived value is really low, your prospective clients won't be willing to pay even $50/min. This has to do with your past experience, credits, relevance of those credits, who knows you, who you've worked with, reputation of those you've worked with, awards etc.
I sometimes see people stuck in their careers cause they think their perceived value is higher than what it actually is, and that can do them a huge disservice. Cause while they could work on their perceived value little by little and play the long-term game, due to ego struggles or just naivety they keep turning down gigs that, while they might not be paying much, they could help them build that leverage and perceived value over time.
So to wrap it up, keep in mind your perceived value and never stop working on it.
Great point Alvaro, totally agreed! It takes a lot of self awareness to know your market value at a given point in time, but ultimately focusing on building value for others is what helps push people forward in their careers. Not to say that what's important to a creator isn't important at all, but as a business it's about how best to serve the people hiring us. The more we invest in our craft, sharing knowledge, and being reliable, fun, creative people, the more value we provide and the more others want to help us succeed :) 👍🏻
Thanks, Zach. Without exaggerating, I can say that this is without a doubt the best and most importantly the clearest and most understandable piece of advice on pricing/charging for composing music that I have ever seen. I hope that as many beginners as possible in the job will see this and take it to heart.
That's awesome to hear, thank you!
Great info! I’d only add that hours per week will be more like 30-35 to account for small breaks and not having enough work to fill the hours.
Also, the first minute or two of music takes longer than the rest so you can charge a bit more for the first 1 or 2 minutes and then reduce for time after. So basically a base price plus per minute. Like a setup fee and then per minute.
I've been a software developer for almost 20 years, currently looking over the fence into composition, and I feel everything you've said holds up for my industry too. Undervaluing yourself can also have the paradoxical effect of losing work, because in the client's eyes there must be some reason you're sitting at the bottom of the pile.
Oh man! Thank you for really making a whole video about that topic! Nicely done and straight to the point :) Have a nice day!
Excellent advice and delivered in a very clear way. Thanks!
Zach... Man! You are such a blessing! This video is SO informative!
As always... Thanks 😁.
Ken
simple and clear, good video thank you
This awesome! Very informative! Thank you!
This video is GOLD Zach! For a lot of young/aspiring composers, a lot of people find it daunting to even consider charging what they feel they are worth (which is often much less than they deserve) and are afraid to charge more. This video is not only insightful but is also helpful reassurance that we can value our work and our craft.
Hey thanks for watching and for the kind words Jack!! :)
Really great video as usual, Zach! Loads of great points in there that I was nodding my head in agreement with throughout haha!
Hey Tristan thanks man!! Glad to hear it 😁
Great content, Zach! Thanks!
Very helpful, thank you Zach!
That formula is the simplest and most effective way to work your rate out.
I've watched other videos on this topic but this broke it down the easiest and I was able to solidify a number with it, also something to build to!
Thankyou for this, Zach.
So glad to hear it Nick!
Great, detailed and nuanced advice! In its core it still comes down to supply and demand.
Thanks a lot for this video. Much appreciated
Dude your timing was perfect! I was just thinking about this a couple of hours ago as I start my journey as a freelance composer, thanks for this!
So glad to hear it!
This is THE best video I've come across this subject. I love the formulas, gives me a place to start, which seems to have been such a tough thing to figure out. I have such a severe tendency to undervalue my work and I get a lot of comments about it, so it's about time I started pushing the envelope and ask for more reasonable prices and plan ahead.
Excellent video. Thanks so much!
Very interesting info Zach, your videos are super valuable to me (or rather future me) 😄. Thanks a million!
So happy to hear it :)
Great video, Zach! I found your methodology for billing composers to be very informative and helpful. It's interesting to see how composers can structure their pricing based on the scope and complexity of the project, and I appreciate the emphasis on clear communication and setting expectations.
However, as someone from France, I was left wondering about the issue of copyright and how it relates to billing. In my experience, negotiating the rights to a composition is often a separate process from determining the composer's fee. I would be curious to hear more about how this works in the United States, and whether it's common for composers to handle both aspects of the transaction simultaneously.
Overall, though, I think this video is a great resource for composers who are trying to navigate the business side of their craft. Thanks for sharing your insights!
Thank you! This was very useful.
I have searched about this topic many times and your video explains it the best. Thank you. You are a genius.
Very happy you enjoyed it :)
Amazing video, thank you!
Great video Zach, I think this should be THE video composers should reference when it comes to this topic. There's so much out there and what you should or shouldn't do, but the way you're presenting it is a how a freelancer thinks of it, which is what we are. Good stuff!
Thank you Ernesto, that's very kind!
This is a good mild whack at the subject, but the reality is so nebulous, as to render the discussion down to confidence and demand for what you do, once you get going. I've been making a living at this since the early '00s, and I can tell you there are many other factors in play. Also, like you mentioned, where it's going is a big factor, (CZcams Video, Indie Film, or major motion picture.) There's the complexity of the track (1 minute of 4-piece diegetic rock music is far different to 1 minute of orchestral underscore, time-wise.)
Also, as you get better, find you can charge more, and your tools get better, you also hold yourself to a higher standard. Which again brings up where it's going. Nobody's doing a Logic in-box cue with like Kontakt Komplete, or Spitfire for a serious big-budget movie, or a huge ad campaign. You can mock it up in there, but at this point we're not talking about the hours you spend composing on your machine, it's about all the external time negotiating the budget for the players, orchestrators, copyists, studio time, etc. You can let the producers handle all that, but you better trust them, and their choices. I've done sessions at The Village D with a children's choir where the whole session got held up because the Choir Director was so jacked on keto coffee, she was shouting at kids who were minutes late showing up, talking about docking their pay (Umm, not gonna happen in CA, lady) as if they'd driven themselves there in LA traffic. Talk about performing yourself out of further work . . . We were still working on the micing tree. Poor kids . . .
But to young upcoming composers, I'd say this: Nearly every time I've had the brass to counter with double the initial offer (which reminds me-ALWAYS force them into an initial offer. Don't DARE offer first!) I've gotten what I wanted, and then regretted I didn't triple it. The Line Producer's job is to hire people cheaply as possible to stay under budget. They are not your friend. Clink your drink with them and move on, at the Premier. (And tell them "nice shoes." Puts them off balance.)
This is brilliant. Thank you.
Amazing tips, thanks a lot!
Super useful! Thank you!
Thanks for sharing! Lots of good advice.
For classical composition in Canada I think a lot of folks follow the CLC (Canadian League of Composers) commissioning rates guideline when applying for grants or being commissioned. I'm not sure about their formula, but pricing per minute depends on the ensemble type and size.
This does seem different than a situation where you would be submitting finished audio tracks for media. There are different considerations and skills required for both.
hmmm very informative and extremely useful. I may have to tweak the pricing for my artwork along similar lines. Although I'm not exactly painting as a day job yet but your formulars are interesting.
Hey Zach, I'm Brazilian, I just want to say that I follow your channel and I think I could explore many themes from games like Dark souls 3 and many others. Thanks man
Your channel is a pure gem! I am a professional musician - guitarist, multi-instrumentalist, producer, and a guitar teacher and I've got 5 solo albums released. We all know that bands and solo artist don't really earn enough to make a living unless they're famous. That's why I decided to dive into composing for films and games and your videos are so far the best resources that I have found and I will be definitely supporting you on Patreon. Thanks for the awesome videos and keep up the great work!
Thank you Zach 👍
Thanks so much Zach, an incredibly helpful video.
So glad to hear it! 🙌
It's also worth pointing out that coming in very cheap has the global effect of dragging pricing down across the industry at that price level. Once it's down it will never come back up. Also being asked for very low pricing is usually a way to give that info to their first-choice option to get them to drop their pricing.
I work as an independent software consultant, and what you said is very similar to what I recommend to people. One thing I have to warn people of who are considering going independent, is that you need to be expensive enough that some people won't pay your rates.
Great video Zach, and it's good to see someone talking about "the elephant in the room" sometimes! :)
My only comment would be about "how many hours it takes me to write 1 min of music", talking about your formula. I'd say, it depends ... a lot, actually! Writing 1 minute of music for a very simple ambient piece, by recording just a few synth tracks within a project can be quite easy, and takes just a few hours. However, writing a 100+ tracks piece involving intensity layers for a piece of combat music within a game project for instance, can take up to a few days. So I think it's important to define your "per min" rate, as an average, so then you spend a few days on a complex track, composing a simpler track will kinda balance out the efforts given on the more complex track ... if that makes sense... See what I mean? :)
Thank you! And agreed, I always recommend logging and average hours in the beginning to get a feel of how long a given project will take. Creators usually underestimate time needed as well, so generally it's safe to multiply that number to be cautious :)
Great video Zach. Thank you so much! I do have a follow up question please. Would you define exactly what a 'minute' of music comes down to? Is it the composition of the music minute or are we talking about the absolute complete minute that has been mixed and mastered WAV file that is ready to be turned in to client? Or something in between? It would be great to see a video on what your definition of a minute is according to this topic. Love your videos! Thanks again!
Thanks for the video! I also started with $100 and then up to $500. But, very often I had to lower the price in order to get the job. Looks like I did too many things wrong. Now I'm mostly unemployed and more often earn money as a sound designer. I watch your videos with great interest, they inspire me to continue writing music.
It's been 7 months, have you been able to get yourself back on your feet with composing?
Great video! Worth factoring in tax too when calculating one's minimum to survive. I made that mistake early on!
Most definitely, good point!
Hey Zach, great video!!! Do you have a video explaining how much money a composer need to address to start regarding equipment and software? Also, it is importante to consider the depreciation of these equipment, since that as music composition today is pretty related with technology and technology runs fast, so, depreciation and/or deprecation of equipment is a big problem, right?
First time here! Instant sub 🎉
This is excellent stuff, man. I would also make sure you account for at least 30 cents of every dollar you make going to taxes. Hopefully it's less, but I'm self-employed as a sole proprietor LLC and look at about 23% of my income going to taxes (in Florida).
Thanks Matt! And yes, most definitely--good point!
Good advice, thanks so much! 2 questions: Do you charge per minute including early demos and sound palate ideas, or is it just the total minutes of music that are used in the film?
In a scenario where the director doesn't want to use all the minutes of music you made and tries to use that metric to pay you less, what do you do?
Good question(s)! In most cases I charge for the amount of finished music I'm commissioned to write. The spotting session can be helpful to pre-establish where music should or shouldn't be, and to lock down how much you're tasked with writing. Sketches/demos are all a means to the finished product, so I don't charge extra for rejected versions unless I've put a clause in the contract limiting revisions to a certain amount. Establishing these conditions early and clearly (and in writing) with your client is key to both parties being on the same page 👍🏻
Awesome Video Zach, Thanks for doing this. Now i would be very interested about royalties. do you have to clarify something contractually or do you automatically get royalties if you are the composer? Do you get royalties on the kungfu series as a co-composer or is it like a buyout? what do such contracts look like? what has to be in there? Do you still own the rights? Do you then register these tracks with a PRO? the whole thing is super complicated. would you be allowed to put the track on Spotify if you are writing music for a comercial, series, whatever? would be awesome if you could explain something about it. all the best and thanks for the content
Thank you! Anne-Kathrin Dern has a GREAT video about this in the meantime:
czcams.com/video/iyHqZi3AYwE/video.html
@@ZachHeyde ahhh ok, i will watch it. Thanks for the link. great work man 👍😊
interesting insight. I'm only an amateur musician, so I don't charge for my work in that respect. (and anything from Twitch or Patreon goes straight to animal welfare charities). I do use a similar concept for my "day job" (I'm in telecoms and IT consultancy running my own registered company as a sole proprietor). In general, I work out a "day rate" based on the monthly sustainability, plus taxes and social charges on top. Here in France, the social charges are generally another 20% on top of the base rate, so basically +20% for value-added tax, and +20% for social charges, and then between 6% and 24% for income tax for the "employee". Therefore, in general, if using your example of 2000 / month sustainability, you're looking at a monthly rate of about 8000. But since it's a day rate, you have to take into account the fact that you're only charging for days worked, and not calendar days. (France is notorious for public holidays, especially in May).
Don’t forget taxes and cost of gear, libraries, any assistants or other musicians, mixing and mastering. Maybe have a minimum number of minutes since “overhead” will be more spread out over more minutes.
Very true, and good suggestion!
also a fantastic video. super informative. I would still be interested, how does it look there with contracts? what's in there? what does such a contract look like? if you get a request, do you still have the rights to your music, can you still upload it to Spotify? Do you get royalties then? what does it look like step by step when you get an inquiry? all the best
Thanks! Good questions--a lot to unpack, but if you check my site I've got a free PDF guide outlining some of those basic concepts you might find helpful 👍🏻
1:44 But on the other hand, when something causes a difficulty and dealing with it takes time, you don't get paid for that time. And it encourages skimping.
Hi Zach!
When you are doing the math on how much to charge here are you are using the $90 per minute of music figure for composition only, or are you including any other service such as mixing or orchestrating?
When you are setting a fee based on deadlines, how do you determine the threshold for a “rush job” which carries a premium? What would the time frame be for a “rush job” of 3 minutes of music vs 30 minutes of music?
Thanks :)
For difficult clients, add 20-30% to your rate. A former professor called this the "Asshole Tax" :)
Haha love it!!
I’m a starting game composer and I keep getting job offers through discord but almost all of them fall through. One guy I literally only charged $30 per minute of audio (that’s insane) I was desperate and the guy ended up not even paying me after I gave him the audio because he only wanted to pay through crypto (I totally got scammed) this video helped me so much and now I know my worth and that I should say no to people instead of being so desperate. Thank you.
So glad to hear you found this video helpful!! And thank you for sharing your story, I hope you find people who begin to value you what you're worth 🙂
Honestly, it’s hard finding places where people need composers. I usually operate through CCC, but there are only so many projects on there that need composers, and a lot of them are unpaid. Any suggestions on other places to look?
You should reach out to as many directors as possible. I started off by emailing or instagram messaging 100 directors each week. You might only get 1 or 2 responses, but those little amount of responses can build relationships. I found most of the directors that I work with by insta messaging them or emailing them. Just send a little note about yourself, what you liked in other projects that the director has done and add your portfolio at the end.
Worked for me and I am 17.
I'd suggest aiming to look to build relationships with creative people first, as opposed to trying to go straight to looking for work. Remember that someone needs to trust you before they'll spend money on you. Cold emails can definitely work if you send enough out (it did for me), but try to balance that with reaching out to other composers, animators, directors, and artists just to say hi and that you like their work. Build relationships and be patient, and over time some will pan out into work :)
Well i charge nothing since i compose for my video game and honestly i prefer making a video game to composing since i would not be able to do it for others!
When you say 1 minute of music, do you mean 1 minute of finished music ie arranged, mixed and mastered etc or do you mean 1 minute of written music on piano for example. I can see what the reasonable answer should be but I just want to make sure :)
The first one--account for all the time it'll take to deliver a revised, approved, arranged, mixed and mastered piece of music. That way your client isn't in for any surprises, and you've made sure to charge enough that it's worth your time 👍🏻 And many people outsource various parts of those tasks to other people, so making sure you're paid enough means that people who help you are also paid well!
50 %
Please don't charge $50 per minute
Agreed! Charging too low kinda breaks the market, and clients don't necessarily feel the difference between good stuff (quickly done) VS awesome sauce with many details and quality; it's just a fact, some "non-audio" people just won't make the difference, thus they won't necessarily understand why they should spend 1k/min as they can have the same amount of music for 50 bucks per min. Of course, as Zach mentioned, it's important to value yourself according to your experience, but it's also important to maintain a certain level when it comes to rates, in order to keep our industry healthy as much as possible within a certain quality/price standard.
I looked at the thumbnail and my dumbass thought they were per minute prices lol
Zach, what do you think about AI ? (like chatGPT) Will it be able to compose a full piece of orchestration oneday? 100% like a human could have done. Is it scary for ur job ?
Please do a video on this subject if u consider this threat like it's something to be concern about 🙂
Personally I don't feel threatened by AI (yet), because I believe that what I offer is too custom for AI to successfully replicate (yet). Scoring to picture is a nuanced art that requires cohesiveness from scene to scene, sensitivity to timing and emotion, and a relationship with the director and their needs that to me seems near impossible to replace with a computer. If anything, I think the artists threatened by AI are those writing library music--more simplistic tracks aiming for one mood/style throughout.
I currently assist a composer by writing additional music. I write about 10-20 minutes per month and the pay is $50/min. Unfortunately, my speed has not seen much improvement over the past year, and I am still averaging about 4 hours per minute. After taxes kick in at the end of the year I’m making less than $10/hour. Luckily I have a “real” job that pays the bills. I like working with the composer and I like the opportunity to work on films, but it’s gotten the point where it is no longer worth my time. Should I walk away?
That’s very low pay! How long have you been writing for this composer? If this composer doesn’t value your help and agree to pay more, I would walk away as someone who has assisted as well . Just my take
@@andreasahlm4744 I have been working with them for about 2 years. These aren’t A-list films by any means so I don’t know how much of a music budget is available
@@cinematicmusicproductions 2 years is pretty decent. If possible, might be worth it to discuss the pay again ? Depends really what your end goal is
If you feel it's gotten to the point where it's no longer worth your time, I think you know it's time to walk away. Maybe the gig has served its purpose for you, and it's time to start pursuing projects of your own. Or maybe you just want a little more time for yourself. But either way, yeah, I think it's time for something new for yourself!
Btw, 4 hours for a good sounding minute of music is right on par with top level composers/programmers. Idk what your opportunities look like outside of that situation, but if you can get on board with another composer, you should easily be able to negotiate a lot more than $50.
You forgot TEMPO! An action scene takes a ton more hours then a dramatic scene. You can not do hourly... because I might be able to write faster then you per hour. It just depends on the scene and music needed. We tried to unionize years ago and failed due to speed of writing. Silvestri is very fast, James Newton Howard I believe is the fastest!
If you watch the full video, I mention that hourly is an average baseline of your writing speed, but shouldn't be your target rate. It's just a benchmark if you've never charged for your music to make sure you're not dramatically undercharging. There's way more factors than hours worked that influence pricing, for sure!
@@ZachHeyde Hourly pay is not a thing for any composers and never will be. Game composer will charge by the minute which is cool idea.
I think there's a miscommunication--determining your hourly rate is a benchmark for determine how much to charge per minute. Many composers don't know how long it takes them to compose, so throwing out an arbitrary per-minute number without an internal understanding of time needed could risk them undercharging for their time. This video is aimed towards composers just getting started, so the subjects in here may not be as relevant if you're more established and have moved onto value-based pricing.
But I think we actually agree! Hourly pricing isn't possible (or beneficial), but it is useful as a personal framework to ensure you're not undercharging.
"60$ per minute is super low, I dont recommend that"
Me: *Looks at last 5 min project for wich I have charged 15$*
We've all been there, it's part of the journey!
@@ZachHeyde well i am glad to hear that
Sixpence ha'penny
Don't know where you're living but... plus taxes 😝
Yes 100%!
Everyone should be charging really high. The entire industry has been devalued by young composers who work for pennies trying to build a name for themselves. Music takes a lifetime to master so why charge low ? CHARGE HIGH 😂
100$ per minute of score lol i thought u meant 100$ per minute of work lmaoo im tired of this 9-5 shit 😂😂😂