As someone who was on her way to commit suicide by jumping off a tall bridge at 1 am in my twenties, I can state that my life had been saved by a newly constructed suicide barrier on that bridge. I remember being frustrated that it was there at the time, preventing me from jumping, but I did turn around and go home. I'm 40 now and am so, so happy to be alive.
If they can design hostile architecture preventing people from laying on a bench or sleeping under an overpass and call it 'art', I'm pretty sure they can design some barriers preventing death. They don't care, they are just mad it's messing up their image.
Bringing up the statistic about how 9/10 people who attempt suicide but do not succeed don't end up dying by suicide at a later date was incredibly impactful. All the statistics I've been told, and I've never heard that one before. It makes me feel better than anything else I've ever been told. It makes me feel so hopeful. I always used to think I'd end up being just another statistic, but maybe now, this is the kind of statistic I can be instead.
Hey. I Hope you are Doing well. As a suicide survivor, I have the strong belief that the body has a fail safe if you just want escape and not die. I never wanted to die, I just wanted to escape the unrelenting torment of existing. I tried to die three times. Each time, I waited desperately for a sign of hope before. And each time, I asked for help when I realized it wouldn’t work. The small part of me, invisible in all the desperation, that loved life and had hope, preserved my life. The last attempt was in 2020. Since then, I have gotten a lot better. I am no longer in the midst of addiction, I am living a life that is tolerable to good, I have joy in my life. My worst days went from trying to end myself, to being curled up in bed watching romcoms. And the best days went from days I could almost breathe to days full of joy in the little things in life, spent with people I love, feeling happier than I could ever imagine. If even a small part of you wants to live, you will live. If there is a possibility of hope left in you, that will prevail.
Caitlin, I can't express enough how helpful the statistic about "instant regret" for me was. It should be blasted from all places on the internet that deal with death or suicides. Jeez, it should be taught in schools.
I've watched this video several times and will probably watch it several more. I've also since looked at the study she quoted and several others that show regret after attempted suicide and how people often don't go on to attempt again. It's really changed my perspective. Another reason is because at the beginning of the video, the warning somehow made me feel better. It's validating, and non-judgemental, and personally made me feel like "actually yeah I do feel ok to watch this". She's so comforting in so many ways.
as someone who struggles with depression, I can confidently say that ive never felt more hopeless or empty than when I find myself in these kinds of neighborhoods / outside malls for the super rich. these places and structures look exactly the same in every city. its the opposite of life affirming. give me gardens, child friendly spaces, bodegas, seating, free to use spaces with not cartier or Chanel shop in sight
Right? And they talk about the place as if living in NYC/Manhattan doesn't already put everything at your fingertips. Like... what I LOVE about big cities is the fact that you can step out side and there are restaurants and shops and parks and museums all within a 15 minute stroll. And if it's not that close, it's a 10 minute ride on public transit. People like these obscenely rich dudes are what is ruining cities like NYC. Making it a place that isn't accessible or enjoyable to the masses. They already have 5th ave or whatever and the whole area surrounding Central Park as a rich man's playground. What do they need with this Hudson Yards nonsense.
I was very lucky and grew up in semi rural England- close to the city, but I lived right next to fields and nature reserves and the canal we all walked along as kids. I can honestly say I feel so much more content here than anywhere else- when I went to London a while ago I was surprised how relieved I was to be at home somewhere that had a lot more nature and community. I can see why people living in the city are so lonely sometimes (but then I’m sure some would say the same in reverse!)
Well as someone who does almost everything alone I can definitely say there is nothing life affirming about "you aren't allowed to come here by yourself, you little freaky liability"
The 14 yr old was with his family. Being part of a group isn't going to stop you if you are determined. Especially if you don't feel like part of the group.
Reminds me of a story I heard about a man planning to commit suicide at the Price Edward Viaduct in Toronto. He arrived at the bridge and became frustrated when he encountered the suicide prevention barriers at that bridge. He realized there was another bridge high enough for a deadly jump not too far. But in the ten minutes it took for him to get on the bus and to the location, the desire to jump had completely faded. It's important to remember a key factor about suicide (that was sort of described in this video but I felt this particular description would contribute something). I myself am lucky enough to have never attempted suicide - however many, many people have described it by one word - a trance. It isn't as simple as "my life sucks, I wanna die". It's a complex, deeply powerful, railroad state of mind that occurs at the very bottom of the pit of depression, but is even more complex and forceful than the mental illness of depression itself. What these barriers do is create an opportunity for those attempting suicide to break out of that trance. It can sometimes be just as easy as putting something physical in the way, to interrupt the trance and give the person a second chance.
I love the luminous veil that was erected on the viaduct. The lights at night glow and remind me that in a large city there are people who care about beauty and care about those who no longer can care about themselves.
I can't cite the exact book, but barriers- even psychological ones- do indeed work. It was in some sort of self-care book I was reading as a teenager, and it had a section on, well, suicide. It stated at one point in the book, that "90% of those who are suicidal that are kept from being able to commit suicide at the point of crisis (the "I'm gonna jump!" moment) for more than 15 minutes, do not continue to try again." A barrier that makes you have to find a new spot- or put a large physical effort to get there- is one of those things. It's also one of the reasons that people will rarely take their life if they have *anybody* to talk to at the spot when considering it (the reason for those help lines that have sprung up at a lot of hotspots). It even said that under "if you feel suicidal": "Wait for 15 minutes. Call anybody who will answer."
Wow. Thanks for sharing. I've also never had these thoughts but categorizing it as a "trance" seems like it would be accurate. I researched an article on the last suicide on this structure, and it was a 14-year old boy who although had suffered with depression and attempted suicide before, was happy, jovial, laughing, and playing with his sister just moments before jumping.
As someone who has attempted suicide, I can agree entirely with the trance mindset. Your head circles the same negative thoughts, you cannot escape them, you cannot ignore them. You are locked and focused on that one thing, escaping your life by whatever means it is you have fixated on. Be that jumping, or in my case, taking pills and doing the old wrist slice. All it takes is something to snap you out to save a life. For me it was the realisation that I didn't have enough pills and would have to go buy more. And here I am, 13 years later.
I mean maybe just maybe if we solved the housing issue in New York rather than throwing 200 million at some bullshit the people might not want to kill themselves since they can afford rent.
I feel that The Vessel, says a lot about how out-of-touch the insanely wealthy can be. I don't know much about architecture, but I have a bachelor's in art; accessibility, safety, and such were always things that I was told to keep in mind. In my personal opinion, you fail as an artist when you use the excuse of "beauty" to ignore making things accessible and safe.
Your phrase "out-of-touch the insanely wealthy can be" speaks such volumes on a lot of what's wrong with our society right now. I couldn't help but notice that every key person involved in this project was a rich, white man.
Putting higher barriers won’t change why these people are miserable. Do you want to prevent more deaths? How about banning mind-altering substances like alcohol, weed, cigarettes, caffeine, opioids, and useless medications that only worsen mental illness? But you guys love those drugs too much. Maybe that is why you are so easily controllable.
@@carlossp1759 it won’t change why they’re miserable but it will stop them from killing themselves. As explained in this video, evidence states that suicide is impulsive and people who are stopped by barriers often turn around and go home rather than find another way to mill themselves. Also simply banning those substances doesn’t work either. Better and affordable mental health facilities, treating addiction as a health crisis and not a crime, getting rid of the stigma against mental health and suicide, and universal health care will help
This may be an off take, but I think the design choices behind the Vessel also enable it as a suicide hotspot. As humans we want to prescribe meaning to things, places, etc. A structure exists for a purpose, even if said purpose isn’t immediately apparent. So, when presented with an ostentatious tower of climbing staircases to nowhere, the question becomes: ‘why does this tower exist? What is the purpose of all these stairs.’ In truth, the stairs serve no purpose but to get you to a higher place, you climb and climb and are rewarded with nothing but a waist high railing and a view of billionaire excess made manifest. There is exactly one thing every person can use this structure for, whether the designers realized that or not.
I think the same. You get up so high for no reason at all except looking at people all the way down, so tiny, so small, like ants... You look at their surroundings and all you see is dreamy and unreachable for 95% of the population and yourself, you start thinking about how you'll never be enough, you're not smart enough or anything like that, you get overwhelmed and there's nothing stopping you... not even a glass fence or any kind of barrier. The architect is washing his hands over this like it's not his fault, the designer too, hell the whole table at the conference was drinking their coffee in awe in front of such beauty and still are ignoring the obvious. The design has no purposes so yeah, people found one for it. A sad one, but one still.
it's like in Japan, where there is an island with a resort where people go to commit suicide and also the infamous forest where people go to die. IT's like "This is what this forest is for..." It is "Fine to do this here, this is why this is here..."
"we didn't want to design with fear in mind" is possibly one of the most out of touch things I've ever heard. absolutely wild. He's an architect designing a building intended for public use in NEW YORK CITY and he didn't want to take potential risk into account? change or guillotine.
As a person who climbed this with my family during the depths of my depression, I was no more in awe than I was in fear. I saw this building as pointless and gaudy, surrounded by expensive shopping centers. The art was lost on the fear. I saw NYC, beautiful, empty, and a line of disabled people waiting for the elevators at the bottom. Beauty and Safety are not mutually exclusive
Its like something in the designers heads subconsciously made them create something where the whole aesthetic depended on an open empty shape. Without thinking about how that might appeal to people contemplating suicide.. With all the super rich shops around it as well it would almost turn that suicide itself into art. And it looks totally impossible to fix without destroying the original aesthetic completely.. May need a complete new redesign.
your observation of the disabled lining up is heartbreaking - I don't think making the structure wheelchair accessible would have been that hard. Maybe the stairs are part of the "vision" of climbing, but just switching some for ramps or finding ways to incorporate both would have been a powerful gesture, especially when they were praising this thing and imagining it to be a landmark. I have a disabled friend who has opened my eyes on the many, many obstacles, big and small, she faces when she uses her wheelchair - it must be so frustrating.
It's a form of snobbery on the part of the architect. I would guess he Never had a sick day in his life. I have met some of these snobs and found them to actually express their contempt for those less than perfect health. They certainly do not go with the concept in the Declaration of Independence: all mankind equal under the law.
@@violetorange I dont know that it could’ve been designed to be particularly accessible. It’s built on such an ableist philosophical foundation to begin with… The whole notion of walking making someone a true citizen and a lot at that is so incredibly blind to the huge percentage of the population that cannot walk a lot. Ramps at those angles would require an incredibly strong and energetic person in a manual wheelchair and an electric one would lose charge before it even got half way up. Basically, this whole thing makes me angry and this is just one discriminatory aspect of the wasp’s nest.
Theres a reason rooftops are almost always set up with alarmed doors. People are troubled, and l'appel du vide is real. I think "the vessel" should have a garden in the middle, with trees and vines giving the viewer something beautiful to focus on.
Shade all day not a problem? You think someone gets there to kill themselves but would be distracted by a bush? There were probably bushes on the way over there.
As someone who definitely associates color (or lack thereof) with depression, yes to this! I don’t think I could handle living in city with such an overall grayness to it. I would take a real jungle over a concrete jungle anytime!
@MiniCat Someone who's determined to end their life isn't going to be put off by a garden. It might stop someone who has a spontaneous urge*, but someone who's at the end of their tether needs more than a pleasant view to stop them. I don't know why the architects couldn't have installed glass barriers on every level, and on the inside and outside. It wouldn't have altered the aesthetics in any meaningful way. People would argue that it'd be expensive, but it already cost $250m - I can't imagine safety glass would change the budget too much. ($250m was a made up number anyway - I'd be very surprised if that cost more than $10 - $15m m to build). Having said that, barrier or beautiful garden, it's going to be impossible to say how many suicides would be prevented and how many simply did the deed elsewhere. *Clearly saving the life of someone who has a spontaneous urge is worthwhile - wasn't suggesting otherwise.
I’m a suicide attempt survivor. I first planned a suicide attempt when I was 10 or 11. Now I am 31 years old. I still have a safety plan in place. The entire safety plan revolves around making attempts inconvenient. I can you tell you with 100% certainty that placing more obstacles to get over to get to a method of suicide has saved my life. It wasn’t as if it was impossible to do, it just took such effort that I changed my mind before going through. That doesn’t always work, but I will say according to some other comments on here, this method has indeed saved more than a few lives.
As a designer, my take is that the firm's unwillingness to rework the Vessel is kind of intellectual laziness. Stubbornness in design is not sexy. Refusing to rework or rethink when faced with a flaw is not good designing.
Also, they talk about how building higher railings 'takes away from the experience', but honestly, I'd enjoy it more if I felt safe. I think having such a low railing so high up would leave me terrified that I'd somehow trip and tip over the edge that I couldn't even enjoy the view. What I'd prefer? A giant design like that, only instead of open air, it's all clear tubes, like those tunnels that go through aquariums so you can see all the fish from underneath.
It seems like there's a certain sect of high concept designers that are so locked into their artistic vision they refuse to compromise it with the real world necessity to acknowledge human nature. Which works great for thinkmag concept pieces but always revels it's shortcomings in the real world. Good design works WITH human nature in mind, not in resistance to it.
yes i agree theory is dangerous some times but so is life. that's Nature's law. sometimes designers can create a perfect house to die in which should be examined and talked about. I don't care for the vessel for monetary reason, but to make everything safe is exhausting. lighten up.
Another place in NYC that logically *could* be a suicide hotspot is the High Line…but it isn’t. Not only are there barriers, but there are beautiful gardens between the barriers and the main walkway. In order to get to the edge, you’d have to diverge from the path and trample over flowers- not only would that take more effort that simply wandering over, but it would attract considerable attention from other people and motivate them to intervene.
@@christiamark9184 the most bizarre suicide I attended in terms of implausability was a psychiatric unit where a young man climbed up his wardrobe and swan dived head first into the ground. It wasn't more than 2 metres when you consider the curve he would have to have been in between the roof and wardrobe but the impact shattered his cervical vertebra and the time lost by staff in not giving adequate respirations meant he was vegetative and taken off life support 4 days later.
I remember reading about the instant regret people who survived jumping the bridge had felt. They described that those fleeting few seconds on the way down were so long, that they realized that whatever was haunting them was not worth such a permanent solution, and on the way down they had suddenly thought about so many other ways to work around or alleviate their problems. That is both very important, and very haunting to know. How quickly human mind is capable of changing so fast when they are pushed into a situation where the choice is taken away. They made the choice to jump, but once they made it, there was no taking it back. And to think that so many of them had that regret, but didn't survive. It really makes you think.
Oh, when you said, “it’s only for certain people” you hit the nail on the head. The feeling one gets when being treated as if any human is worth more than them because others have more of anything material is one of the most alienating feelings ever. It’s almost the same feeling as a child being bullied. Nobody wants to not belong…
Ok, sure, if that’s all the city had. I don’t like the gaudy shops either. However it IS for everyone. It IS unique. The structure IS beautiful (to me). This whole video can be summed up by : it shouldn’t have taken four deaths, of kids, to install temporary nets. They are so pompous as to ignore the deaths like the problem itself won’t be fixed because they command it. I can’t climb the structure, but I aspire to. When I do, it will ruin the experience if I see suicide reminders and high rails all about. By the time my health is good enough to get down there, I expect to see an integrated suicide prevention system that does not impair the experience in the least. That aluminum monstrosity in the library is awful. I am an engineer and can think of systems completely hidden. We are New Yorkers and we can do better.
@@Greg-yu4ij I agree about those barriers at the library, looks like static on an old tv, not the 'digital waterfall' as they call it. How would you solve the issue though? You said you can think of something that's hidden, what would it be?
The impulse is so true. I remember trying to get onto the railway tracks once. I said to myself, if that gate is unlocked, im gonna do it. Kicked it and it was well locked. So I walked on and saw an eel, cried a bit and decided I wanted to see more eels and lovely creeks and went home. When im that depressed im not gonna climb anything.
I think people fail to realize that someone in that state isn't thinking about anything else They've done all of their planning at that point and it their one plan goes wrong, they're just going to leave because they won't have the mental energy to come up with a whole new plan
I live in Manhattan and avoided visiting Hudson Yards for the longest time. To me, it seems like a front to the struggles of people. There are so many people struggling in this city. The money could have been spent differently in more ‘ethical bougie’ pursuits; high-quality affordable housing, better transit, better schools, but it wasn’t. I remember the first time I finally went to Hudson Yards last June, shortly before it was closed again, and there was just this feeling of total isolation. It felt like the vessel was a monument, to the lives of the rich, and the deaths of the poor. I’m not in poverty, nor am I rich, but even as a semi-privileged individual, the space just doesn’t feel like it’s for me. Because deep down, it’s not. It’s for people to flex their egos. If there is one thing I can say to finish on a sort of happy note, the fact that we are having these conversations about suicide and self-harm, is a starting point to changing our society. We have come a long way in how we deal with mental health, but we still have a long way to go. Lets not forget the memory of those who died, and lets owe it to them and the thousands of others who have died by suicide, to make a more inclusive world.
I mean you probably aren't wrong. But in that case I have some bad news about nearly all public art and most of the impressive architecture in this world.
I am currently in my last year of college as an interior architect designer with a minor in architecture. The statements made by these designers and the measurements they didn’t make within their designs are embarrassing and appalling to me and I know my classmates would feel the same. The way we are taught, or at-least at my university, is that we aren’t designing buildings to look cool or ornate or such, we are designing for people. There is a level of understanding the human brain and how we interact with the world that is needed while designing. We take into considerations such as environmental impact, quality of life impact, how humans function and how we can accommodate but also push people to improve their lives, and much more. We also are taught to design universally so that all people can experience and partake equally, such as having a rose garden in the center of a building so that it helps calms stressed or anxiety induced people but also for people who are blind / low vision so they can find their way through the building. With this we of course also take situations such as this video into deep consideration. Every single thing we design is our doing and if anything happens then it is our fault because we did not take that into consideration or evaluate situations and designs correctly. These famous and older generation designers don’t seem to take everything I’ve said above into consideration because what I’ve been taught was not taught 20 years ago. Older and rich designers seem to design for the looks and the glam and don’t take much else into consideration. We design for looks and for the “aesthetic” as well be that comes after the importance of the human body and how our designs will impact others negatively and positively. How our designs will inspire, support and heal is at the forefront of current design. The design of buildings should live symbiotically with the human body, human experience, and nature and shouldn’t be a separate aspect that negatively impacts its surroundings.
Yay for discussing Universal Design. The Ed Roberts Center in Berkeley (for disability-related services) has a waterfall at one end as an auditory orientation for Blind people, as one example.
Frankly, I think Heatherwick's attitude is an insult to architects & designers everywhere... I don't know any architect who would be so dismissive of the risks inherent in a structure like this, especially when there are numerous solutions that could have been incorporated without affecting the aesthetic. There's plenty of big-name architects who lean _very_ heavily towards 'form' rather than 'function' with their designs, but I've never heard one point-blank dismiss a safety issue with a building like that. Appalling.
My cousin was always proud of a design she worked on for furniture in retirement communities, particularly a simple looking chair. Residents wanted to be able to move the chairs but also need the chairs to be stable. Their design was to have casters on only the back legs, since people usually pulled the chairs around by the back but when they sat on it, it didn't shoot out from under them when they pushed up from the seat.
As someone who works in a suicide prevention and intervention mental health program, this is a major topic that I feel needs to be talked about more often. Thank you so much for bringing such a deep discussion to the surface!
How do you cope? As the moderator of a large discord server, I've been thrust into multiple discussions with suicidal people and it's so hard. All I can do is convince them to go to sleep and message me in the morning. Then I get them to contact their doctor, a hotline, or just their mother. Thank you for what you do.
I have a feeling that The Vessel is going to be used as shorthand for "class disconnect." This building was NOT designed with the common person in mind, I really don't. I belive the architects THINK it was, but it isn't. It's nothing more than a billion-dollar paperweight to show off what SOME people can do with their vast, vast amounts of wealth. It was designed with the tastes of the designers and who were funding them over anyone else.
So I may be in the minority here but I do find the vessel to be beautiful, the updated library barriers to be stressful and ugly, and the Guggenheim to feel exclusionary ($25 admission fee anyone?). But I still think it’s ridiculous that it didn’t have barriers to begin with. Perhaps ones with shimmering coppery designs where the glass panes meet or a latticework above the railings. The vertigo could have been achieved in a different way.
Honestly, the first thing I thought of when I saw it was "What's the purpose?" Sure, there's a nice view from the top...in some directions. Other directions are blocked by skyscrapers. If it had been incorporated into nearby buildings via walkways it would have been a neat way to see some sights while on your way, but I don't really get the point of it sitting out there by itself. Granted, I'm probably not the best to talk to about it, because I have the same concerns over the Eiffel Tower.
Although it is obviously not the focus of this video, thank you for talking about accessibility. It is often overlooked in architecture. Besides being not accessible, it really gives the building an extra message of "you're not welcome when not able bodied and very fit". I'm not surprised an architect/team that doesn't regard disabled people and accessibility doesn't care about the mental health aspect as well. Suicide prevention is another part of accessibility that's super important.
Reminds me when the American heart association's "take the stairs" day promotion involved some company buildings turning off their elevators for a day. One said building was a clinic 🤦🏻♀️
I am so glad that it's mentioned in the video that this public place is against accessibility, it's just lots of stairs and it's for the physically abled and physically fit. Yes, there is an elevator but the person who designed this talked about being part of the experience is using the body physically, which is something not everyone can do so it already feels like he's leaving out that group of people.
I have went through Architecture training, and the very first thin that our professors tells us during freshman year, all through our final studio design are: If something where to happen in the spaces you design, it is your responsibility, you hands played a part, and your names are attached to the space. If good things happen in the space, you are allowed to take pride, but if bad things happen it is your responsibility and your fault. As Architecture it truly about creating a container for life and living. If you design floors that are uneven and people trip, your fault. If a todder's head got stuck between railing post that are too widely spaces, your fault. If the barrier you design was too low to safely keep people in, absolutely your fault, your moral responsibility to make corrections where all corrections are possible. I do think designers that refuses to make design alteration to protect lives are Evil. (and when we start talking about inclusive design, we can be here all day and have a thessi by the end of it)
I visited the Vessel in 2020 with a bachelorette party, and as someone who has struggled with suicidal thoughts, I thought about what a "good" place this would be to jump from as I ascended. It was so obvious that it would happen. It was a great view but nerve-wracking at the same time, especially when you have the impulse to self-harm.
For me the Vessel also seems like a perfect depression-booster. It's like a metaphor for how unfair life is. You climb a bunch of stairs to find only empty platforms, nothing to do except gaze at the skyscrapers all around you, where people can get much higher than you with the press of a button.
was waiting to see if Bobst would make an appearance - I was a freshman when the first two suicides happened. the problem with the plexiglass is it does immediately bring to mind *why* it's been put there in the first place, especially given how tacked on and ugly it was, way more than the aluminum redesign.
The nutty thing is, I was at NYU during the early 90s, and this topic was already old as fuck THEN. I like what they eventually did, but why did it take so long?
One would think the designers might have taken some cues from all the OTHER buildings and bridges and such that have had constant problems with suicidal situations. If only there were some global interconnected network of computers they could have turned to.
@@shelleyberry188 - the other thing about Bobst is the gorgeous floor which, from above, is somewhat alluring (for lack of a better word.) I can see someone who is already considering taking that horrible plunge being edged even closer to it by the allure of that amazing floor pattern, which seems to pull one into it. Not to make light of mental illness or suicidal ideation, but there can sometimes be an element of wanting to die in some meaningful or even beautiful way, and be remembered.
regarding the NYU library: I have heard students describe it as "cage like" & direct anger at NYU because even tho they spent millions on beautiful barriers they still refuse to provide students with mental health resources. I follow a girl who was immediately expelled as a result of telling her guidance councilor she was suicidal because she was a legal liability to the school. barriers aren't enough.
Barriers aren't enough, but it is one of the functional prevention strategies. I agree mental health resources and proper training to providers in using these resources must be provided as well, and it goes hand in hand with all these other measures.
My son went to NYU and the pressures from the programs are enormous but also from parents. Someone on my sons floor died freshman year. You can’t blame the architecture-people need mental health services!!
I actually visited the vessel on the day of the July 2021 suicide, only about an hour before. After finding out I came so close to seeing not only the end of another humans life, but one so close to my age, I was a little bit shaken to say the least. I don't understand how or why it stayed open after the first suicide.
As a New Yorker, as soon as this opened up, I knew there would be people who would use this to... unalive themselves. It was just way too easy. An 8 story tall installation with only waist high barriers? Anyone with more than two braincells could have seen these tragedies coming. I'll never understand why they didn't have taller glass barriers installed in the first place.
They had to at least have considering that, even in passing, right? Maybe it's just my own history with depression and ideation talking, but it was one of the first things I thought of when I heard about this structure.
"It WoUlD CoMpRoMiSe ThE aRt" probably. The same sort of attitude that makes a man believe that THIS thing that HE built would be NY's answer to the fucking Eiffel Tower. Rampant, unrestrained ego.
I lost one of my oldest friends to suicide in 2018. He was due to see me weeks before and cancelled last minute. He jumped. I still haven't processed it fully and I think about him EVERY day. Caitlin, this video is the first time I've fought past the urge to AVOID ALL MENTIONS OF SUICIDE. I watched this because I trust you. Thank you for coming true. It has helped me SO much just by starting a conversation in my brain that I should've allowed myself to have a while ago. THANK YOU.
I'm so sorry for your loss. I think it was really brave of you to speak your mind in a public forum and it sounds like the video helped, so I'm really glad for you.
You've reached a grief milestone. Congratulations and please know I'm sending you love because grief milestones are painful sometimes. I'm sorry for your loss, truly sorry.
I'm so, so sorry for your loss. And I'm glad you can begin to process and that this helped with that. Random internet stranger but you'll be in my thoughts.
When I first saw it my first thought was ominous. Second thought, authoritarian. Third, lifeless and ugly. Learning about the suicides was not too surprising. It occurs to me that on an emotional and subconscious level modern structures like this call to the suicidal. That people who whine about the views speak their own lack of progress toward full humanity.
This video is impressive. I had suicidal ideations years ago and I remember that it was because of deep deep unrelenting emotional pain. I just wanted the pain to go away. I understand people visiting this place and becoming inspired in the moment to end the pain. I've also visted the Guggenheim, and there would have been no inspiration in that place to end the pain, rather an emotional uplift instead. Your analysis is wonderful. By the way, I'm another person who is very very glad I didn't "jump."
Against the warnings at the start of the video, I decided to watch while feeling/thinking very intently about suicide. Everything you do is interesting to me and I can't hold back my curiosity for long. So even with the warning and knowing today I was feeling very "intensely" about it, I wanted to stick around. Learning about the instant regret experienced by the Golden Gate survivors was so sobering and grounding, and gave credence to the little part of myself that knows I want to be alive. Suddenly I don't feel like digging deeper into those thoughts. Thank you for everything you do.
Think of those you'd leave behind. Please don't do anything to harm yourself. Don't be selfish. Just give it 1 second, 1 minute, 1 hour, 1 day, 1 week, 1 month, 1 year at a time, and you'll see that you can make it. You truly will. Here's some love for you from a complete stranger. ❤️
*hugs* hang in there. It will get better, you've got people who care about you. And just know this: you're beautiful and worth so much more than you maybe know right now.
As a native New Yorker I have absolutely zero desire to visit Hudson yards. I've never done the new years time square nonsense either. Totally agree with your opinion on this. NYU got it right. When I want to see " art " I go to the Met.
When I saw this in NYC a couple years ago on an art trip I remember not liking it. And then because I'm an artist I tried to dissect why I didn't like it since there are other large public works that I do like. I eventually concluded that it just felt soulless to me. Now I know why.
The fact that the architects would rather have the vessel be closed than build safety barriers says everything I need to know about how much they really care about the "community".
As someone who lived in New York I felt that the public art in front of a business was a statement of how that business felt about the common New Yorker. Some were friendly and colorful, or even useful (usually artistic benches). A personal favorite was a huge spiky metal ball that in summer would spray water out the tips of its spikes so it looked like a giant dandelion puff. The kids loved that one and the water mist was so nice on hot days. Some even have interactive art that plays music or other fun activities. With that in mind it doesn't surprise me that New Yorkers would hate a piece like this. To them this would make quite a statement about how the complex feels about the average New Yorker. "We won't let you into our overpriced private community so here, have a sculpture that represents the empty grind of your pathetic lives." The shear emptiness of the interior is overwhelming. It is a climb with no real purpose or even much of a reward (you know, if I wanted a view from 10 stories up I could have just gone into any building). I'm only surprised that it hasn't been vandalized yet.
@@MaryAnnNytowl not "any" hill or mountain. In my city (glasgow, Scotland) there're only a couple of hills I'm gonnae climb for the view alone. The others I climb to get into a building or for the pleasant experience - but if there was a shitty little one with nothing to see at the top, no lovely sights/sounds/smells on the way AND no functional reason to be there? Nah, I'll just stay on the ground, thanks.
I one hundred percent feel the "it's easy enough to say a space is for us when everyone around is like you" sentiment. I live in Vancouver, BC in Canada and it has totally become a metropolis for wealth. They talk about inclusivity when it is so dang expensive to live here, it makes a lot of people wonder why they're still here. Thanks for bringing in that POV because I totally would never have thought of that myself. Love your videos Caitlyn :)
My city did architecture like this for the newly built huge psychiatric hospital. (Despite warnings from doctors, nurses, architects and regular people alike). It looks like an ominous huge metal cheese grater on the outside, and to get anywhere inside you have to walk across walkways suspended in mid-air with waist-level railings, all the way up to the top floor (seven floors up). They’ve now finally installed plexiglass above the railings, but it’s still completely see-through and everyone walking there talks about still feeling an instinctive urge to jump - even non-patients and the doctors themselves. The huge building of this new and modern psychiatric hospital is practically built to incite suicidal feelings, and the rest of the architecture is very harsh too, all metal and glass despite the existence of hundreds of scientific studies on what architecture and interior design makes people feel safe, and what design gives off a cold, harsh, uncaring feeling. But, like in this video, the people who made the decisions didn’t care about that, and all warnings went on deaf ears. I’ve been there to visit a friend with anorexia, and it’s honestly horrifying. The elevator walls are made of glass too, so as you’re ascending you see the atrium floor disappear further and further down as the view you have starts looking like you’re on the top of a bridge and ready to jump. If anyone wants to get a taste for what it feels like to be on the verge of committing suicide, going into that building is a surefire way to do so.
I was like, "Wow, The Vessel looks a lot like one of the tourist traps on my campus." Turns out Thomas Heatherwick designed our dim sum building as well.
@@chrisardern4594 it reminds me of that hotel hell episode where the dude was running the most. cold uncomfortable hotel based off of cars. maybe heatherwick's skills wouldve been more useful over there
As someone who has tried to commit suicide, I can say with confidence that if a person really wants to die, an entrance fee and guards won't help. If you've been depressed for long enough, you know how to fake being in a good state of mind to get the guards off your back. If you choose to die at that exact spot, why not pay the price for it, even if it maxes out your credit card, when you'll be too dead to pay it off?
I think that it's fair to apply this argument further. Even the railings and safety net would not stop the suicide. They would just move it elsewhere, out of the public eye. I can see how that would be desirable, but there is no moral value here.
It's so interesting that the inspiration for the Vessel, the stepwells, are so beautiful to me and the Vessel just feels like a greyed out imitation. The stepwells are beautiful demonstrations of geometry. They held an important purpose for keeping people alive. Even the materials used, organic warm colored stone against the deep green or blue water, feel more welcoming. Where the Vessel seems to be an enemy of anyone with a mobility aid, the stepwells were created to make it easier to reach water. The Vessel seems like it saw the stairs and completely missed the point of why they're beautiful and useful. I've never visited either, but I feel like my reaction to an ancient well would be of awe at the engineering skills, geometric beauty, and the spiritual connection people had with them. While the vessel would create conflicting feelings of depression and determination to climb to a reward that wouldn't be worth it.
As a person who tried/has been suicidal and also accepts death at any moment. I can say that the barriers are like when people call someone before they try to unalive themselves. If they’re was a bridge like that or highway in Maryland that I could find and get over the barrier I would’ve did it but if I couldn’t get over I would immediately rethink.
To your question about an architect's ethical responsibility: we are responsible. In the AIA Code of Ethics, which are ideals to be followed by all architects or you risk losing your license and ability to practice, architects are required to design for the health, welfare, and safety of occupants. We can't guarantee that someone isn't going to harm themselves or others in a building, but designing the vessel without higher guardrails was a selfish design "decision" for "aesthetics." Although it meets code requirements for it's classification, additional barriers should have been included for public safety.
It adheres to code. We're not responsible beyond that. If my design adheres to code and can be constructed-- that's a win for me and my firm. If a person decides to jump from a mansion's balcony because it has railings to code and not something outrageous like 5'-6" instead of 3'-6" it isn't my fault. Same decision here.
As an engineering student who talks a lot about engineering ethics, I can say it’s the designer’s responsibility to consider all possible misuses of the design and do their best to prevent it. Glass walls wouldn’t have been difficult or out of budget.
@@FUnzzies1 And what do you know to argue that? Are you going to an engineering school? Do you know any specifics on the ethics of engineering? Blocking out conversation isn't helping anything.
I agree that it is the designer's responsibility to consider all possible misuses, especially as the possible "misuse" that could occur with the Vessel were not unknown. And not only by the designer but then by everybody else around that conference table discussing the creation.
I'm not engineering student or anything but I like art. Glass windows that are slatened like vent on each cell would was my first thought. I believe they wanted to keep the air flow. the flow of the building would be the only reason I could think they didn't even put it in a glass box that touch just the edges if the structure. Like they did with the model. As someone who has stood at the bottom of a bridge that had a low barriers for days, my heart bleeds for those who couldn't walk away. I 100% agree with you.
Barriers can be functional and beautiful as you said. It's such a shame the designer doesn't want to compromise at all. And as someone who attempted, small deterrents really help. I also noticed the other architect building with the art, also had slopes, making it accessible to everyone
As im typing 23 minutes in, im crying because of what art and beauty around us can change someone's possible thoughts of suicide. I honestly really want to make a difference, and my heart is with people in general, between children and adults. We all matter and are important. I've found my calling, and I think it's being a therapist.
As a civil engineer from middle europe, my university years were filled by telling us: low railing = people are falling down = ticket to jail. We were taught to put tall railing everywhere, no matter what architects say or how ugly it gets because in the moment someone falls (or jumps because he can get past the railing) we have the full responsibility. Never even thought that real engineer would let something like this be built. Or that in US there are no safety norms for this like in EU.
The architect was British. This thing made all sorts of violations of US code (limited handicapped access was another big one), most of which they got past by simply ignoring them, some of which they stalled on by arguing that it was not whichever structure the code was meant for. Basically, they tried to call it a sculpture, not a building, and hold out until it was completed and a fait accompli, then hold off renovations with stalling and lawyers.
I think the architects who won't take responsibility have thought it through, and simply decided they care more about looks than people's lives. This should be illegal.
There's a hell of a lot of difference between an elite architect and a civil engineer. Civil engineers literally have a professional code of ethics because people depend on what you design. The thing I find most offensive about this and some other big-"art" projects is that they so ostentatiously have no underlying purpose other than symbolism. I love art and symbolism is the important, but if you're spending $150 million to build something huge on some of the most valuable land in the world, it should have many purposes or you're just doing it wrong. Oh, and that it imitates the functional design of a step well makes it even worse.
Karoline: It's really a matter of personal responsibility. I can find a way to jump off the Golden Gate Bridge. It doesn't mean I should. Aside from that, if someone really is set on ending their life all high railings and suicide nets mean is that someone will end their life in a way other than jumping off a bridge. Now if it truly was a failure of engineering, like the Hyatt Regency walkway collapse in Kansas City, Missouri in the 1980s, there are consequences. The firm that allowed that design change without the proper analysis permanently lost their engineering license.
I love how the people running the library addressed the safety issue. It's functional and beautiful. I've never understood why safety and accessibility is not more widely seen as an inspiring aesthetic challenge instead of something to sulkily tack on after the fact when someone *foreseeably* complains. There's not much of a reasonable excuse for new construction to fail so consistently in this way.
I see what you mean but these people aren't dying in accidents. They are purposefully jumping. Do you know how many people k*ll themselves by hanging every year? According to your logic is it the rope manufacturer's fault? Is it the stores fault for making rope so accessible? No it isn't. We are all responsible for our own actions. It isn't the designer's fault. It isn't the cities fault. If someone decides they're going to d*e then that is their choice. People have the literal human RIGHT to do what they want their own bodies and it is not up to you or me or anyone else to try to control that . I believe we all have the right to choose to d*e. People who don't think so are people who have never truly experienced the true depth of suffering possible. There are some things so terrible that cause so much mental distress and suffering that there is no possible happiness that exists in life to outweigh it. If anything it's the federal government and the insurance companies fault for basically closing down all long term free mental health institutions. We need to reopen state/federal run long term mental health hospitals.
A shame this now age restricted, more people need to know about this, I’m glad you covered something I’ve seen in passing so respectfully. Very informative.
I was living with suicidal thoughts the majority of my life, passive periods changing active self-harming phases Last year i was in a plein air activity with my art group in college and a priest offered ur to climb a monastery tower. Going up endless spiral staircases and feeling closed up in the structure of a building and then sudden change to standing in open bright area of the bell tower, seeing world around us while small bird skeletons lied near our feet made me recall thoughts about "freeing" in the most morbid way possible and the only thing that held me from jumping was common sense and understanding of how disrespectful it would be to people who were there with me not even mentioning the problems it would bring to my teacher and the church What i wanted to say is that an enclosed building with a lot of stairs and open areas are not the best thing for people with suicidal tendencies (Sorry for any grammatical errors im not a native speaker)
As a tall person (who is afraid of heights but still regularly tempts them) "waist height" railings always scare me a lot since in my case usually they are lower than my waist and I feel like if anybody accidentally bumped into me or for some reason pushed me I'd be close to falling but even if I didn't i'd definietly get a panic attack.
I can’t find the article anymore but I once read that this is especially an issue in the Netherlands where people are tall and the regulations on railing heights changing but older buildings being quite dangerous
Don't forget about the wind! I was knocked off my feet before by a strong gust of wind and that's why I fear the grand canyon and being near the edge of anything.
heck, I'm 'average' height but proportionally my legs are long so most 'waist height' railings are also short for me! it's quite scary, especially with older railings that are creaky
I'm not even particularly tall and "waist height" railing scare the crap out of me. I can't really even stand being on the second floor of the local mall because the railings are so low.
Also the fact that it's called "the vessel" and the fact that it sort of looks like a rib cage, but is black and empty. There's something about that which might appeal to a suicidal person who feels hopeless and disconnected from life/their body. I think exploring that kind of dark feeling is a valid thing for art to do, but it isn't wise to put art that invokes those feelings so prominently in a public place.
I was thinking ribcage or wasps' nest. It might be beautiful, but it's definitely not uplifting. Someone from the psych field should have been consulted on how to *NOT* make this thing a magnet for potential jumpers.
My daughter (15) who has a history of self harm and suicidal thoughts was the first person I thought of when you started this story. Soon as I seen that design I just imagined her jumping. Right when I had that ungodly image in my head you mentioned the 14 old on a family vacation and ended his life. So freaking tragic. I would never want to take my daughter anywhere near that thing. I do believe that things and spaces can hold some type of evil spirit or something like that. I think this piece of "art" is one of those things.
As the first part of my comment, I would like to say that my brother ‘used’ a public construction to commit S, several years ago, my comment is not based on naïveté of this devastating situation… If a company makes a knife, they are not responsible for a murder committed with it We cannot and should not coat the world in sponge and erect 50 ft barbed wire fences around every item constructed in case somebody chooses to use your structure to harm themselves
As a life-long NYer, I can say definitely that what people need from urban planners are more safe and happy places for community interaction. Mental illness was already rampant a few years back, but since the pandemic it has become overwhelming. People are lonely and desperate, driven to commit violence acts against themselves and others. I see it pretty often. People need an accessible place with, idk, maybe some trees and child-friendly structures, a place that is a foil to the grim stress of daily urban life. While this structure might be cool to explore, it is truly the antithesis of what would benefit the majority of citizens of NYC. It makes me mad.
I agree with you - this thing is not about the quality of life for the masses but a cornicopia for the wealthiest - that All of a sudden realized "that one Day we are all gonna die... - including Them", it is a legacy I Guess!? Much big Bird your way my Friend.
@@nocomment2468 I know, but they do not realize it, only a few, very, very few feel the neccesity, urgent as it is, to step Up, with and for All of us. And they have to be careful...as the old saying goes - it is freezing Cold at the top, you conscend or you die!! More Big Bird or not my Friend.
So I’m an engineer and as of 2010 most engineering colleges have required ethics courses and it was hammered into my class that our responsibilities as professionals go beyond just the construction and we can let our biases come through our designs even if we didn’t notice it.
As someone who got a degree that was associated with an engineering college, we not only had a required ethics course but a course dedicated to looking at man made disasters/accidents and analyzing why those disasters/accidents happened and what was put into place to prevent those things from happening again. Seems like the designer of the Vessel could benefit from taking that course.
@@juliecampbell860 It depends. I used to work in nuclear power and the one thing hammered was procedural complacence. This was done by telling many horror stories about bad QA and QC. It was done by hammering every rule violation. With most buildings being a static thing, what process concerns could you have beyond verifying that the actual structure meets the blueprint in all respects?
@@griffenspellblade3563 Most people (I would hope) would understand that creating an installation that tall might attract those who want to end their life, and it should be considered. Not to mention with how low these railings actually are, it poses other safety risks as well. All it would take is one kid climbing on the railing while their parent was distracted to have a tragic accident.
I'm studying to be an architect, this building actually has been talked about in my class previously, one of reason is safety points. I didn't know that you covered this. This is a good take..
So I have been suicidal so I am in the hospital. I remembered watching this video before and it making me more ok so I turned it on in the back ground as I was drawing. This has literally helped me hold on even if falling would make the world greener and easier. Especially the statistics for regret helped.
There's nothing quite as bleak as being poor and facing a massive multimillion dollar structure, that ultimately, when labeled as "for us", really only represents the grueling labor and endless climb to absolutely nothing and nowhere, which is what most most jobs for people like us are. Endless stairs and hard work to be greeted at the top by nothing more than a hollow void and a nice view? Sounds exactly like the demanding and thankless physical labor of every average job, where you work your butt off and scrape every penny you can get, and in the end you're just working towards a pretty dream you'll probably never reach. Maybe that's not how everyone feels, but I personally have been living below federal poverty level my entire life, I work gard and I get nowhere, and well meaning stupid rich people get to live of the efforts of me and the people around me. I'd probably throw myself off their useless little staircase as well.
that's a pretty eloquent description of the Vessel's meaning, but possibly not the architect's intent. A true symbol of how art is not always controllable
in london's marble arch area a £2,000,000 tourist attraction was built to attract tourists, it was half a hill made out of scaffolding and you could see some bins from the top. meanwhile there are more people in poverty than ever before. the council tore it down two months later.
@@jameswhite153 it actually stayed open to the public for like 4 months. Opened July 2021, temporarily closed until August when it reopened and then closed for good January 2022. I saw it in December. Still looked like crap and was home to a lot of pigeons but people were still paying to go up it lol
I would say that the hope was that it would be used as a center of performative art, as a backdrop for movies or celebrations of New York, and other positive things. The designer and builder had just loving and positive feelings towards their art piece that they were blinded to the reality of how others would view it or feel when up in it. But I would think that progressively higher railings and other installations would add to the art and help the overall feeling be more uplifting.
I attempted suicide in my late teens. It was entirely impulsive and one emergency room trip later, I truly regretted my decision. I can understand how barriers would work. They give you a chance to think and despite the fact that life still really feels hard at times for me, I am so so thankful now that I survived.
I spent many years as a shock trauma nurse in Baltimore. A young man jumped from a very high local bridge and was picked up by some fishermen and survived, although harmed. I asked him what he was thinking as he left that bridge and he responded - I tried my best to fly backwards to that bridge by flapping my arms! He most certainly regretted his actions.
Yeah as someone who was suicidal for much of my teenage and young adult life, the vessel looks like a depressing dystopian hellscape. Stairs to nowhere, outwardly gilded in copper and gold with an internal look of dead end office stairways all surrounded by overpriced luxury shops meant to gouge every cent possible out of you? That would drain the zest of life out of anyone
The part about preventing deaths just by giving architecture a purpose makes me think of the Canadian Museum of Human Rights, a large, open building with long, featureless concrete bridges between sections. It's spacy enough that usually, you (or your group) are usually the only person walking the bridge, and there are no full barriers to prevent people from climbing over and falling. The content of the museum itself is also obviously very sad, and for many visitors, hits close to home. And despite all that, there's never been a suicide attempt there. I've been there a few times and, as somebody with a fear of heights and depression, I feel weirdly safe on those walkways. The designers intended them to be meditative, to give people a break between difficult museum sections and give them space to think about what they've learned, and it works.
Sounds like a challenging concept, with a positive outcome. But in all cases i think there should be a plan B available right at the start of building, should the original concept not work out. Clearly in many cases, such as the vessel, there is no alternative thought of at all.
I think it's pitiful that we can't have nice things like this. I understand people wanting to protect the vulnerable, but I'd never put the blame on the builder. Ever.
@@soleursuelos3616 The blame for their death isn’t on the builder, but it is sort of their responsibility. If you were to build something that people use to off themselves, it’s up to you to put in preventative mesures, even if their deaths weren’t your fault. You can’t really expect (in most, not all) cases that your building is going to be the place people want to die at, but once they do, it’s sort of your duty to put something there to stop other people from deciding that they should do that too.
I think if one person were to jump, it would start a cascade of events when that news story popped into the head of suicidal people during a time of crisis.
I must confess, I skip watching 2-3 of your videos to binge watch all of them at once. I always feel like watching more if I only watch one but watching all at once still leaves me wanting more! Love your content!
Just as a viewer here at CZcams, the Vessel seems dark and oppressive, each level overhanging the next, pressing down rather than opening up and out as I assume was the intention. The center is darkened by the ever-reaching layers above and around it. Standing at the bottom, inside or out, must feel like one is being loomed over. It does look like a sort of beehive, and that makes me think that enclosing the whole thing in a well-designed, honey-gold "comb" of safety netting would actually make the thing beautiful and much safer. A garden could be added, or even planters on the structure, to encourage real bees and butterflies. It's a pity so much money has been spent on something so ultimately terrible.
100% agree! It would actually make sense that way, and the future isn’t 1980’s pointless megastructures - it’s nature and the environment, and being made accessible for people who have disability. The one constant suggestion on all comments about it is that it “needs nature features”, in so many words. It’s true the artist wants to give “disenchanted bourgeois cosmopolitans the feeling of being off-balance and ‘at the edge of death’”. It’s designed for dinosaurs. I hope they change it or else it should be demolished. Will be, anyway in twenty years when these old, obsolete mega-consumer dinosaurs are extinct.
Yeah, something is way off about The Vessel. It for sure has a dark energy about it, then add the suicides, which I feel this thing draws to itself. The Vessel is not "art", so many horrible things are passed off as "art" .
as an artist, architect, disability activist, someone with depression, and a survivor of multiple attempts, I can say that everything about this feels wrong. architecture ALWAYS has to have the needs of the people involved, and art needs to be accessible. in my opinion, this feels like art as a status symbol (which I personally do not believe to be true art), rather than art for the sake of art
That's exactly what it is. A giant manifestation of "fuck you money" that does nothing except remind visitors that they don't belong in Hudson Yards. As for retrofitting for safety, it's legitimate to ask whether the structure itself can handle the additional weight and stress of new railings/barriers. High glass walls might be interesting and would be artistically relevant (it's a big cup, after all), but vulnerability to wind and vandalism would have to be taken into account.
Genuine question: Would it have been more accessible to people with disabilities/wheelchair users if they had replaced some of the stairs with ramps? Or would the angle still be too awkward to try to climb up? This does not seem like a well-thought through project.
I feel like they all knew exactly what was going to happen and didn't give a shit and still don't. This thing is an eyesore nightmare that really does look like a bedbug
@@KaylaKasel the angle would be waaaaaaay to steep, imagine pushing yourself up a ramp as steep as stairs are, using only your arms. Not fun, especially for multiple stories
I have attempted suicide twice. YES, higher barriers are a must. For my own psychological issues, I have this tiny bit of hope that I hope I will make it. But I'm still here.
The height of the wall around the top level of a parking garage at my college saved my life. At the time, cold and depressed and exhausted, it felt almost humiliating that I couldn't mount the wall, but now I'm just grateful for the impediment. I know for a fact that I'm not the only one on campus stopped by the design either, and that my friends, is good architecture.
@@jessn.2665 But wrapping everyone in bubble wrap is NOT the way to do it! How many potential opportunities were missed to help him BEFORE the thought of suicide became apparent?
As a New Yorker: everyone I know in this city sees this building as the epitome of hypergentrification architecture and a symbol of the dystopian direction of city planning. People in my circles were protesting this- as a giant outpost of luxury housing in a city that's been in an affordable housing crisis for literal decades- years ago, and there was a giant labor dispute during its construction because of the project's hiring of non-union labor. Now that it exists I know people who are positively charmed by how incredibly malign and cyberpunk the energy is but the majority see it as a blight and a horror. There is something really fitting about how concrete 'oh, bee tee dubz, this is also now a suicide hotspot' is as a concrete, immediately recognisable reflection of more insidious harms to the community. As a suicide survivor, I'll be glad if they manage to institute safeguards so it can't be a site of impulsive self-destruction, but it sucks that something this malign can only be recognised when people start dying gruesome deaths on the premises.
New York has become far too expensive with much too much luxury development, but critiques of gentrification usually spend all their time criticizing symptoms instead of causes. It is an intellectually shallow political critique.
It's like...I don't know how to put my feelings into exact words, but to know that they were going to be so innovative and create an entire community literally just for people with money to blow because who tf can live off of paying 50000 for a 1 bedroom apartment? Rich people, 3 million for a condo, obviously rich people, that whole gated community was going to be just another playground for the rich and wealthy, it wasn't even gonna be accessible for regular people or even be a community where it was affordable to live or even be a place that would actually in some way while also being a marvle and a tourist attraction, help, I actually think that in some way it would probably find a way to make New York more expensive to just breathe in.
@@dfwdfw9544 to critique the causes, you'd have to take it up with the billion-dollar real estate companies buying houses for above market price with cash in high demand areas. there's obviously a lot to critique that is mostly common sense but not a lot to be done outside of spreading the world and showing up in person to protests and council meetings in terms of addressing the cause since we're talking about uber wealthy people likely with government influence. gentrification simply won't stop, so it's a lot more realistic and easier to deal with the symptoms that the city is already dealing with. my very own block in queens is being gentrified before my eyes and there's nothing i can physically do
@@dfwdfw9544 not to mention the video is literally about a "symptom" of gentrification, hence the comment. very plastic holier-than-thou critique of critique.
I'm so glad that you brought up a lot of the topics that you did in this video. I'm disabled, so bringing up accessibility felt really nice. It's something that a lot of people don't consider because they can walk just fine, and often expect everyone else to be able to do so, but that is far from the case. And then you covered the subject of mental health and safety. Not only am I disabled, but I'm also a manic depressive. I'm on good medication now, but there have been times in my life where I have very heavily considered suicide. Having a simple measure such as nets is so important. That can change a mind. It's one little thing that can keep someone from taking that leap. Truly, thank you for making this video. Thank you for discussing very difficult topics that not a lot of people want to. It needs to be discussed, though. Safety really should come first.
This was such a good video, I loved every second of it! Absolutely appreciate Caitlin, she is so very introspective and profound in her findings. Discovering her is one of my biggest joys in the last two years.
Such an irony that you are identified with a 'death culture' since your videos are often the most thoughtful and life-affirming things out there -- kudos to everyone involved in their production ❤️
I'm currently in my final year of architecture school and one of the things that we talk about when discussing code for a building is that it is the bare minimum you have to do. And at my school we always talk about striving to do better than just what the code asks. Not only that but anything that we design to be created is meant to serve others and not ourselves as designers. This video did a really good job of expressing this and how we should always be creating to improve other people's lives and not make it worse.
Lynda, I started architecture and drafting while in Junior High (US 7th grade) and went all the way through the start of University. Nothing like this was ever discussed. I'm certainly glad that doing "more than the minimum" is now part of the design language. I have been weirded-out since standing on a 25-ish story roof and looking over the low knee-height wall at the plaza below while filming an eclipse. It's made me wonder about this ever since when I travel to places like Miami, where you see tiny balconies with a small railing over 30 stories up. It seems to be normal for so many people to live mere inches from such a drop. Has this always been normal? Was the 1950's attitude to safety the way things were seen? ("What they do is up to them, eh. Fuggedaboutit.")
I had a college friend who took a degree in Architectural Engineering. Every student in her graduating class received an iron ring as a reminder that they have life in their hands. Congratulations in advance and all best hopes for success in life
@@dougspidermanhappy For me, a civil engineer, the iron ring (stainless steel in my case), was because I joined the Order of the Engineer and took a vow (the obligation). As engineers, we have an obligation to serve the public good. The obligation is easily found online (so I don't have to copy-paste it here). We wear the ring on the pinky of our writing hand to serve as a reminder of our obligation to the public. I like to think that the ring rests on the page as we write (let's pretend we don't live in the digital age for a moment, hehe).
@@dougspidermanhappy Elemental iron metal is strong but also brittle; it polishes beautifully but is prone to corrosion. It is a structural metal which also is at the center of human hemoglobin. The symbolism is that iron can produce structures of great strength, but care must be exercised in its use and maintenance. The alchemists also believed that iron could hold evil in abeyance, FWIW
I can tell you from experience, that at times when I can't find an item to self harm with (I hide stuff oit of reach when I get to that point) it gives me a time to think and not be so impulsive about my decision. As stated for some people it is a spur of a moment decision and those barriers giving people a pause to think is so so so important
I climbed this very soon after it opened and I wondered why the railings were so "low" compared to the height of the structure - especially at the top! It was kind of scary, not gonna lie. Also, the messaging of an "empty, open vessel" holds eerie meaning for me. Vessels should be able to hold :)
Exactly, as I was staring at it I thought it could have had an inner garden, like a low maintenance garden that hangs down off the railings. It's pretty but bare. An empty nest with no life. A bit of a bummer
All I can think of is the anxiety of ever having your child there, especially after hearing a 14 year old boy died there. I honestly don’t understand how anyone would be sooo against keeping people safe
@@Syd448 Safe means secured against accidents, suicide prevention is protection against intent and human ingenuity. You son was perfectly safe all the time
The Bloor Viaduct in Toronto was a hotspot for people wanting to commit suicide. By 1997, there was an average of one person jumping to their death every 22 days. A barrier called The Luminous Veil was constructed across the span as both art and for prevention. It won an award for architecture and has worked amazingly.
Yes!I walked or biked over this viaduct almost every other day while living on the Danforth, it was truly beautiful at night. In addition, contact poles and suicide prevention signs are in place.
I was looking to see if anyone had mentioned the Luminous Veil in this conversation and was going to bring it up if no one else had. It's really lovely at night. It's so comforting to see it and think that not only is it pleasing to look at, it's also decreasing suicide attempts in the area.
A brilliant video. As an Urban Planner and a long time subscriber, this video has really got me thinking about how my industry and the architecture industry needs to put safety and wellbeing ahead of aesthetics
Okay, here's the thing. As someone who enjoys a lot of creative hobbies, I can understand the idea of 'ugly railings' being thought of an unwanted rule to hinder creation--but it's all how you look at it. A lot of times artists will challenge themselves to making art under difficult situations or with limited materials. SURELY, there is a way that safety measures like railings can be made a part of the design in a beautiful and creative way--so much so that it's not even seen as railings anymore! (Edit: annnnd okay, you get right into that stance, haha, this is what I get for commenting in the middle of a video, lol.)
I think some kind of well spaced barriers of glass plating would work well with the design. In a way it would not only compliment the aesthetic, and eliminate the need for netting but also give some protection from wind and adverse weather.
Teehee, you're my mind of commenter, Yuri. Personally, my ADHD usually flares up so bad I just have to comment before a video is over. This happens to me a lot lol
I went in hoping you would address the Vessel's atrociously bad vibes, and I'm glad you did. Hudson Yard is a despair vortex for anyone who cares about class inequality.
I worked in the Hudson Yards mall when it first opened adjacent to the Vessel in 2019. The very first time I saw the Vessel in person, I said “someone is going to take their life on that thing.” One of the main things that I’d add to this conversation (because I now find the place repugnant) is that pretty much every element of Hudson Yards construction was rushed. While it looks polished on the outside, I worked inside the mall before it opened to the public and soooo many things were insanely behind schedule. The Vessel was undergoing construction up until the last minute; I could see it outside every day. When the mall opened to the public, there were still multiple stores that hadn’t opened yet. Our store had leaks, plumbing issues, air/heat problems, and it had JUST been built. I already know that THE problem with Hudson Yards is the billionaire urge to just get it done already so they can enjoy their investment. It’s gross.
It's also that they bid these projects out to the lowest cost contractor who inevitably cut corners to get finished on schedule and try to finish under an already slender budget. It's a recipe for disaster, and it's only getting worse across the country.
I’ve watched this video a few times and I’m so grateful for your compassion. At this point, the people responsible for this structure cannot wash their hands of what’s happened. Did they make people commit suicide? Absolutely not. But by wilfully refusing to take measures that save lives, if this is reopened and another person dies, I believe they have blood on their hands. Suicide is so much more than a person intent on ending their life making a plan and going through with it. As someone who has attempted suicide 5 times, I can tell you that not one of these attempts was planned, and every single time I regretted my decision. I am so, so glad that I’m alive today and my heart breaks for every person who’s lost their life. They know that this structure encourages suicide. They may not have known to begin with (although I find that hard to believe), but they sure as hell know now. Their attitudes are inexcusable. There is nothing artistic about enabling people to end their lives. Their lack of empathy is sickening.
I worked in the mall in this area and was present, outside, on the day of one of the suicides. We always asked "Well are they going to add a barrier?" and were flabbergasted when it reopened time and time again with no physical changes to the structure. It's so disrespectful to anyone that had to endure seeing the body-cover up that took place after not to take any action. Additionally they put up these dystopian ads on their screens around the mall asking people to “stay” and seek help. Instead of barriers!
![[Vowel]물고기는 물에서 살아야 해🐟🤣Fish have to live in the water #funny](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/3G9MH063Cx4/mqdefault.jpg)
As someone who was on her way to commit suicide by jumping off a tall bridge at 1 am in my twenties, I can state that my life had been saved by a newly constructed suicide barrier on that bridge. I remember being frustrated that it was there at the time, preventing me from jumping, but I did turn around and go home. I'm 40 now and am so, so happy to be alive.
I am so thankful for the barrier, and very glad you went home :)
Sending love from Vermont
Glad you're doing ok now! Take care
I'm really happy that you're here
Glad to hear it. Take care out there
Glad you're still here ♡
If they can design hostile architecture preventing people from laying on a bench or sleeping under an overpass and call it 'art', I'm pretty sure they can design some barriers preventing death. They don't care, they are just mad it's messing up their image.
THAT PART!!!!!
Probably the most underrated comment!!!
PREACH IT.
Of course they don't care, it doesn't affect them in any meaningful way. No need to state the obvious.
Just tell them it negatively impacts the real estate around it and has a burden on making money and they'll fix it right up.
ACCURATE
Bringing up the statistic about how 9/10 people who attempt suicide but do not succeed don't end up dying by suicide at a later date was incredibly impactful. All the statistics I've been told, and I've never heard that one before. It makes me feel better than anything else I've ever been told. It makes me feel so hopeful. I always used to think I'd end up being just another statistic, but maybe now, this is the kind of statistic I can be instead.
Hey. I Hope you are Doing well.
As a suicide survivor, I have the strong belief that the body has a fail safe if you just want escape and not die. I never wanted to die, I just wanted to escape the unrelenting torment of existing. I tried to die three times. Each time, I waited desperately for a sign of hope before. And each time, I asked for help when I realized it wouldn’t work. The small part of me, invisible in all the desperation, that loved life and had hope, preserved my life.
The last attempt was in 2020. Since then, I have gotten a lot better. I am no longer in the midst of addiction, I am living a life that is tolerable to good, I have joy in my life. My worst days went from trying to end myself, to being curled up in bed watching romcoms. And the best days went from days I could almost breathe to days full of joy in the little things in life, spent with people I love, feeling happier than I could ever imagine.
If even a small part of you wants to live, you will live. If there is a possibility of hope left in you, that will prevail.
I don’t know what to say, I guess I’m just so happy for you guys. Keep strong and rock on.
Caitlin, I can't express enough how helpful the statistic about "instant regret" for me was. It should be blasted from all places on the internet that deal with death or suicides. Jeez, it should be taught in schools.
I've watched this video several times and will probably watch it several more. I've also since looked at the study she quoted and several others that show regret after attempted suicide and how people often don't go on to attempt again. It's really changed my perspective. Another reason is because at the beginning of the video, the warning somehow made me feel better. It's validating, and non-judgemental, and personally made me feel like "actually yeah I do feel ok to watch this". She's so comforting in so many ways.
@@WhiteRabbit- this! this this this this. Caitlin is the Mom we all deserve and I, for one, am a proud Caitling.
Can confirm. I botched mine. The panic and regret after I pulled the trigger was… yeah…
@@lvl10cooking oh my. Hugs, should you want some.
@@Falhaes it was yeeeeears ago. But the regret is still palpable to this day.
as someone who struggles with depression, I can confidently say that ive never felt more hopeless or empty than when I find myself in these kinds of neighborhoods / outside malls for the super rich. these places and structures look exactly the same in every city. its the opposite of life affirming. give me gardens, child friendly spaces, bodegas, seating, free to use spaces with not cartier or Chanel shop in sight
This is a good point. The surrounding opulence is not an ideal reminder that your life is or can be good for most of the population.
Right? And they talk about the place as if living in NYC/Manhattan doesn't already put everything at your fingertips. Like... what I LOVE about big cities is the fact that you can step out side and there are restaurants and shops and parks and museums all within a 15 minute stroll. And if it's not that close, it's a 10 minute ride on public transit. People like these obscenely rich dudes are what is ruining cities like NYC. Making it a place that isn't accessible or enjoyable to the masses. They already have 5th ave or whatever and the whole area surrounding Central Park as a rich man's playground. What do they need with this Hudson Yards nonsense.
That is such a valid point! Then you look at the age of the suicides, when life feels like it's now or never, it's just a recipe for implusive jumps 😢
Exactly! It just makes me feel even more isolated and less than. It's a big divider on society.
I was very lucky and grew up in semi rural England- close to the city, but I lived right next to fields and nature reserves and the canal we all walked along as kids. I can honestly say I feel so much more content here than anywhere else- when I went to London a while ago I was surprised how relieved I was to be at home somewhere that had a lot more nature and community. I can see why people living in the city are so lonely sometimes (but then I’m sure some would say the same in reverse!)
Well as someone who does almost everything alone I can definitely say there is nothing life affirming about "you aren't allowed to come here by yourself, you little freaky liability"
When they had that limitation in place, they just told you to ask if you could join a group or another single person. It was bogus from the start.
I, too, do most things by myself. I wouldn't like the reminder of that. Take care
I recently divorced and in the process lost most of my friend group. I too, do things alone all the time. Hang in there.
That is a very good point. Not to mention it’s super easy for someone to sneak unnoticed into a crowd of people so they are “in a group.”
The 14 yr old was with his family. Being part of a group isn't going to stop you if you are determined. Especially if you don't feel like part of the group.
Reminds me of a story I heard about a man planning to commit suicide at the Price Edward Viaduct in Toronto. He arrived at the bridge and became frustrated when he encountered the suicide prevention barriers at that bridge. He realized there was another bridge high enough for a deadly jump not too far. But in the ten minutes it took for him to get on the bus and to the location, the desire to jump had completely faded.
It's important to remember a key factor about suicide (that was sort of described in this video but I felt this particular description would contribute something). I myself am lucky enough to have never attempted suicide - however many, many people have described it by one word - a trance. It isn't as simple as "my life sucks, I wanna die". It's a complex, deeply powerful, railroad state of mind that occurs at the very bottom of the pit of depression, but is even more complex and forceful than the mental illness of depression itself. What these barriers do is create an opportunity for those attempting suicide to break out of that trance. It can sometimes be just as easy as putting something physical in the way, to interrupt the trance and give the person a second chance.
I love the luminous veil that was erected on the viaduct. The lights at night glow and remind me that in a large city there are people who care about beauty and care about those who no longer can care about themselves.
I can't cite the exact book, but barriers- even psychological ones- do indeed work. It was in some sort of self-care book I was reading as a teenager, and it had a section on, well, suicide. It stated at one point in the book, that "90% of those who are suicidal that are kept from being able to commit suicide at the point of crisis (the "I'm gonna jump!" moment) for more than 15 minutes, do not continue to try again." A barrier that makes you have to find a new spot- or put a large physical effort to get there- is one of those things. It's also one of the reasons that people will rarely take their life if they have *anybody* to talk to at the spot when considering it (the reason for those help lines that have sprung up at a lot of hotspots). It even said that under "if you feel suicidal": "Wait for 15 minutes. Call anybody who will answer."
Wow. Thanks for sharing. I've also never had these thoughts but categorizing it as a "trance" seems like it would be accurate. I researched an article on the last suicide on this structure, and it was a 14-year old boy who although had suffered with depression and attempted suicide before, was happy, jovial, laughing, and playing with his sister just moments before jumping.
As someone who has attempted suicide, I can agree entirely with the trance mindset.
Your head circles the same negative thoughts, you cannot escape them, you cannot ignore them. You are locked and focused on that one thing, escaping your life by whatever means it is you have fixated on. Be that jumping, or in my case, taking pills and doing the old wrist slice. All it takes is something to snap you out to save a life. For me it was the realisation that I didn't have enough pills and would have to go buy more. And here I am, 13 years later.
I mean maybe just maybe if we solved the housing issue in New York rather than throwing 200 million at some bullshit the people might not want to kill themselves since they can afford rent.
I feel that The Vessel, says a lot about how out-of-touch the insanely wealthy can be. I don't know much about architecture, but I have a bachelor's in art; accessibility, safety, and such were always things that I was told to keep in mind. In my personal opinion, you fail as an artist when you use the excuse of "beauty" to ignore making things accessible and safe.
Exactly. The fact that they never considered that if you make a tall thing, people *will* jump off it it the most telling part of this.
Your phrase "out-of-touch the insanely wealthy can be" speaks such volumes on a lot of what's wrong with our society right now. I couldn't help but notice that every key person involved in this project was a rich, white man.
@@jadedone6900 And if the key persons involved were rich black men, would it have made a difference? What is your point?
Putting higher barriers won’t change why these people are miserable. Do you want to prevent more deaths? How about banning mind-altering substances like alcohol, weed, cigarettes, caffeine, opioids, and useless medications that only worsen mental illness? But you guys love those drugs too much. Maybe that is why you are so easily controllable.
@@carlossp1759 it won’t change why they’re miserable but it will stop them from killing themselves. As explained in this video, evidence states that suicide is impulsive and people who are stopped by barriers often turn around and go home rather than find another way to mill themselves. Also simply banning those substances doesn’t work either. Better and affordable mental health facilities, treating addiction as a health crisis and not a crime, getting rid of the stigma against mental health and suicide, and universal health care will help
“We didn’t want to design in fear,” so we designed in recklessness instead. Brilliant.
Billionaire smack talk.
It's kind of sad that things like this can't exist because there are people wanting to jump off of them.
LOL well said
Well said…
@@CandyKoRn True, but it's even sadder that there are people every day who are looking for something to jump off of... :(
This may be an off take, but I think the design choices behind the Vessel also enable it as a suicide hotspot. As humans we want to prescribe meaning to things, places, etc. A structure exists for a purpose, even if said purpose isn’t immediately apparent. So, when presented with an ostentatious tower of climbing staircases to nowhere, the question becomes: ‘why does this tower exist? What is the purpose of all these stairs.’ In truth, the stairs serve no purpose but to get you to a higher place, you climb and climb and are rewarded with nothing but a waist high railing and a view of billionaire excess made manifest. There is exactly one thing every person can use this structure for, whether the designers realized that or not.
"What happens now is nothing to do with me.' Read: "Fuck you. Got mine."
I fully agree with you.
I think the same. You get up so high for no reason at all except looking at people all the way down, so tiny, so small, like ants... You look at their surroundings and all you see is dreamy and unreachable for 95% of the population and yourself, you start thinking about how you'll never be enough, you're not smart enough or anything like that, you get overwhelmed and there's nothing stopping you... not even a glass fence or any kind of barrier.
The architect is washing his hands over this like it's not his fault, the designer too, hell the whole table at the conference was drinking their coffee in awe in front of such beauty and still are ignoring the obvious. The design has no purposes so yeah, people found one for it. A sad one, but one still.
if im gonna kill myself I would like it to be in a pretty looking place, where i can carry out the attempt successfully
it's like in Japan, where there is an island with a resort where people go to commit suicide and also the infamous forest where people go to die. IT's like "This is what this forest is for..." It is "Fine to do this here, this is why this is here..."
"The responsibility is largely left to the Vessel's creators." There's a reason why people say that safety regulations are written in blood.
"we didn't want to design with fear in mind" is possibly one of the most out of touch things I've ever heard. absolutely wild. He's an architect designing a building intended for public use in NEW YORK CITY and he didn't want to take potential risk into account? change or guillotine.
As a person who climbed this with my family during the depths of my depression, I was no more in awe than I was in fear.
I saw this building as pointless and gaudy, surrounded by expensive shopping centers. The art was lost on the fear. I saw NYC, beautiful, empty, and a line of disabled people waiting for the elevators at the bottom.
Beauty and Safety are not mutually exclusive
Its like something in the designers heads subconsciously made them create something where the whole aesthetic depended on an open empty shape. Without thinking about how that might appeal to people contemplating suicide.. With all the super rich shops around it as well it would almost turn that suicide itself into art.
And it looks totally impossible to fix without destroying the original aesthetic completely.. May need a complete new redesign.
Yep-- the number of stairs is my barrier
your observation of the disabled lining up is heartbreaking - I don't think making the structure wheelchair accessible would have been that hard. Maybe the stairs are part of the "vision" of climbing, but just switching some for ramps or finding ways to incorporate both would have been a powerful gesture, especially when they were praising this thing and imagining it to be a landmark.
I have a disabled friend who has opened my eyes on the many, many obstacles, big and small, she faces when she uses her wheelchair - it must be so frustrating.
It's a form of snobbery on the part of the architect. I would guess he Never had a sick day in his life. I have met some of these snobs and found them to actually express their contempt for those less than perfect health. They certainly do not go with the concept in the Declaration of Independence: all mankind equal under the law.
@@violetorange I dont know that it could’ve been designed to be particularly accessible. It’s built on such an ableist philosophical foundation to begin with… The whole notion of walking making someone a true citizen and a lot at that is so incredibly blind to the huge percentage of the population that cannot walk a lot.
Ramps at those angles would require an incredibly strong and energetic person in a manual wheelchair and an electric one would lose charge before it even got half way up.
Basically, this whole thing makes me angry and this is just one discriminatory aspect of the wasp’s nest.
Theres a reason rooftops are almost always set up with alarmed doors. People are troubled, and l'appel du vide is real. I think "the vessel" should have a garden in the middle, with trees and vines giving the viewer something beautiful to focus on.
Shade all day not a problem? You think someone gets there to kill themselves but would be distracted by a bush? There were probably bushes on the way over there.
@@ED-es2qv Well, if anything, falling into bushes and trees is likely to be less fatal.
This was one of Caitlin's suggestion because it has shown to work.
As someone who definitely associates color (or lack thereof) with depression, yes to this! I don’t think I could handle living in city with such an overall grayness to it. I would take a real jungle over a concrete jungle anytime!
@MiniCat
Someone who's determined to end their life isn't going to be put off by a garden.
It might stop someone who has a spontaneous urge*, but someone who's at the end of their tether needs more than a pleasant view to stop them.
I don't know why the architects couldn't have installed glass barriers on every level, and on the inside and outside.
It wouldn't have altered the aesthetics in any meaningful way.
People would argue that it'd be expensive, but it already cost $250m - I can't imagine safety glass would change the budget too much.
($250m was a made up number anyway - I'd be very surprised if that cost more than $10 - $15m m to build).
Having said that, barrier or beautiful garden, it's going to be impossible to say how many suicides would be prevented and how many simply did the deed elsewhere.
*Clearly saving the life of someone who has a spontaneous urge is worthwhile - wasn't suggesting otherwise.
the fact a young child committed while going WITH his family is what really gets me.
I’m a suicide attempt survivor. I first planned a suicide attempt when I was 10 or 11. Now I am 31 years old. I still have a safety plan in place. The entire safety plan revolves around making attempts inconvenient. I can you tell you with 100% certainty that placing more obstacles to get over to get to a method of suicide has saved my life. It wasn’t as if it was impossible to do, it just took such effort that I changed my mind before going through.
That doesn’t always work, but I will say according to some other comments on here, this method has indeed saved more than a few lives.
I’m so glad that you have plans that delay you long enough to use your brain.
As a designer, my take is that the firm's unwillingness to rework the Vessel is kind of intellectual laziness. Stubbornness in design is not sexy. Refusing to rework or rethink when faced with a flaw is not good designing.
Exactly!
Yes. This is a failure of our profession. Architecture should be built to serve, not to harm.
Also, they talk about how building higher railings 'takes away from the experience', but honestly, I'd enjoy it more if I felt safe. I think having such a low railing so high up would leave me terrified that I'd somehow trip and tip over the edge that I couldn't even enjoy the view. What I'd prefer? A giant design like that, only instead of open air, it's all clear tubes, like those tunnels that go through aquariums so you can see all the fish from underneath.
It seems like there's a certain sect of high concept designers that are so locked into their artistic vision they refuse to compromise it with the real world necessity to acknowledge human nature. Which works great for thinkmag concept pieces but always revels it's shortcomings in the real world. Good design works WITH human nature in mind, not in resistance to it.
yes i agree theory is dangerous some times but so is life. that's Nature's law. sometimes designers can create a perfect house to die in which should be examined and talked about. I don't care for the vessel for monetary reason, but to make everything safe is exhausting. lighten up.
Another place in NYC that logically *could* be a suicide hotspot is the High Line…but it isn’t. Not only are there barriers, but there are beautiful gardens between the barriers and the main walkway. In order to get to the edge, you’d have to diverge from the path and trample over flowers- not only would that take more effort that simply wandering over, but it would attract considerable attention from other people and motivate them to intervene.
THIS!
The High Line is not near high enough to jump from. Most of it is MAYBE three stories.
@@taylorg1585 you can definitely die from 3 stories, even 2 if you tip head first.
@@taylorg1585 I'm a trauma nurse, you can die from a ground level fall if done right. Jumping off your single story house can kill many people.
@@christiamark9184 the most bizarre suicide I attended in terms of implausability was a psychiatric unit where a young man climbed up his wardrobe and swan dived head first into the ground. It wasn't more than 2 metres when you consider the curve he would have to have been in between the roof and wardrobe but the impact shattered his cervical vertebra and the time lost by staff in not giving adequate respirations meant he was vegetative and taken off life support 4 days later.
I remember reading about the instant regret people who survived jumping the bridge had felt. They described that those fleeting few seconds on the way down were so long, that they realized that whatever was haunting them was not worth such a permanent solution, and on the way down they had suddenly thought about so many other ways to work around or alleviate their problems. That is both very important, and very haunting to know. How quickly human mind is capable of changing so fast when they are pushed into a situation where the choice is taken away. They made the choice to jump, but once they made it, there was no taking it back. And to think that so many of them had that regret, but didn't survive. It really makes you think.
Oh, when you said, “it’s only for certain people” you hit the nail on the head. The feeling one gets when being treated as if any human is worth more than them because others have more of anything material is one of the most alienating feelings ever. It’s almost the same feeling as a child being bullied. Nobody wants to not belong…
"It's easy enough to say a space is for everyone when everyone around you is just like you." Well said, absolutely correct.
Ok, sure, if that’s all the city had. I don’t like the gaudy shops either. However it IS for everyone. It IS unique. The structure IS beautiful (to me). This whole video can be summed up by : it shouldn’t have taken four deaths, of kids, to install temporary nets. They are so pompous as to ignore the deaths like the problem itself won’t be fixed because they command it. I can’t climb the structure, but I aspire to. When I do, it will ruin the experience if I see suicide reminders and high rails all about. By the time my health is good enough to get down there, I expect to see an integrated suicide prevention system that does not impair the experience in the least. That aluminum monstrosity in the library is awful. I am an engineer and can think of systems completely hidden. We are New Yorkers and we can do better.
@@Greg-yu4ij I agree about those barriers at the library, looks like static on an old tv, not the 'digital waterfall' as they call it. How would you solve the issue though? You said you can think of something that's hidden, what would it be?
That's why melting pots are bad ideas.
The impulse is so true. I remember trying to get onto the railway tracks once. I said to myself, if that gate is unlocked, im gonna do it. Kicked it and it was well locked. So I walked on and saw an eel, cried a bit and decided I wanted to see more eels and lovely creeks and went home. When im that depressed im not gonna climb anything.
i cried when i saw that eel as well.
I think people fail to realize that someone in that state isn't thinking about anything else
They've done all of their planning at that point and it their one plan goes wrong, they're just going to leave because they won't have the mental energy to come up with a whole new plan
Glad that you're still alive and well! ❤️ Hope you continue to see beautiful eels and life in this world!
@@Livingdgurl you had me at eels..
@ said - ".....@Anna Fike you had me at eels......"
czcams.com/video/V2yy141q8HQ/video.html
I live in Manhattan and avoided visiting Hudson Yards for the longest time. To me, it seems like a front to the struggles of people. There are so many people struggling in this city. The money could have been spent differently in more ‘ethical bougie’ pursuits; high-quality affordable housing, better transit, better schools, but it wasn’t.
I remember the first time I finally went to Hudson Yards last June, shortly before it was closed again, and there was just this feeling of total isolation.
It felt like the vessel was a monument, to the lives of the rich, and the deaths of the poor.
I’m not in poverty, nor am I rich, but even as a semi-privileged individual, the space just doesn’t feel like it’s for me. Because deep down, it’s not. It’s for people to flex their egos.
If there is one thing I can say to finish on a sort of happy note, the fact that we are having these conversations about suicide and self-harm, is a starting point to changing our society.
We have come a long way in how we deal with mental health, but we still have a long way to go.
Lets not forget the memory of those who died, and lets owe it to them and the thousands of others who have died by suicide, to make a more inclusive world.
Totally agree! I live in the City as well and visited Hudson Yard and the Vessel once, and found it to be depressing, a monument to the rich.
I mean you probably aren't wrong.
But in that case I have some bad news about nearly all public art and most of the impressive architecture in this world.
I am currently in my last year of college as an interior architect designer with a minor in architecture. The statements made by these designers and the measurements they didn’t make within their designs are embarrassing and appalling to me and I know my classmates would feel the same. The way we are taught, or at-least at my university, is that we aren’t designing buildings to look cool or ornate or such, we are designing for people. There is a level of understanding the human brain and how we interact with the world that is needed while designing. We take into considerations such as environmental impact, quality of life impact, how humans function and how we can accommodate but also push people to improve their lives, and much more. We also are taught to design universally so that all people can experience and partake equally, such as having a rose garden in the center of a building so that it helps calms stressed or anxiety induced people but also for people who are blind / low vision so they can find their way through the building. With this we of course also take situations such as this video into deep consideration. Every single thing we design is our doing and if anything happens then it is our fault because we did not take that into consideration or evaluate situations and designs correctly. These famous and older generation designers don’t seem to take everything I’ve said above into consideration because what I’ve been taught was not taught 20 years ago. Older and rich designers seem to design for the looks and the glam and don’t take much else into consideration. We design for looks and for the “aesthetic” as well be that comes after the importance of the human body and how our designs will impact others negatively and positively. How our designs will inspire, support and heal is at the forefront of current design. The design of buildings should live symbiotically with the human body, human experience, and nature and shouldn’t be a separate aspect that negatively impacts its surroundings.
Yay for discussing Universal Design. The Ed Roberts Center in Berkeley (for disability-related services) has a waterfall at one end as an auditory orientation for Blind people, as one example.
Frankly, I think Heatherwick's attitude is an insult to architects & designers everywhere... I don't know any architect who would be so dismissive of the risks inherent in a structure like this, especially when there are numerous solutions that could have been incorporated without affecting the aesthetic. There's plenty of big-name architects who lean _very_ heavily towards 'form' rather than 'function' with their designs, but I've never heard one point-blank dismiss a safety issue with a building like that. Appalling.
At this point it isnt a building. It never should be climbed.
My cousin was always proud of a design she worked on for furniture in retirement communities, particularly a simple looking chair. Residents wanted to be able to move the chairs but also need the chairs to be stable. Their design was to have casters on only the back legs, since people usually pulled the chairs around by the back but when they sat on it, it didn't shoot out from under them when they pushed up from the seat.
Beautifully stated.
As someone who works in a suicide prevention and intervention mental health program, this is a major topic that I feel needs to be talked about more often. Thank you so much for bringing such a deep discussion to the surface!
@don't be surprised stop spamming
Thank you for your service. Openly discussing topics like this, does combat the stigma which still surrounds mental illness diagnoses.
How do you cope? As the moderator of a large discord server, I've been thrust into multiple discussions with suicidal people and it's so hard. All I can do is convince them to go to sleep and message me in the morning. Then I get them to contact their doctor, a hotline, or just their mother. Thank you for what you do.
Here as a former NSPL worker to agree.
Liberalism is a mental illness and goes against human nature
I have a feeling that The Vessel is going to be used as shorthand for "class disconnect." This building was NOT designed with the common person in mind, I really don't. I belive the architects THINK it was, but it isn't. It's nothing more than a billion-dollar paperweight to show off what SOME people can do with their vast, vast amounts of wealth. It was designed with the tastes of the designers and who were funding them over anyone else.
Agreed! It's a huge, overpiced piece of - excuse my French - art wank.
Exactly right
ugly, replace it w/ affordable housing
So I may be in the minority here but I do find the vessel to be beautiful, the updated library barriers to be stressful and ugly, and the Guggenheim to feel exclusionary ($25 admission fee anyone?).
But I still think it’s ridiculous that it didn’t have barriers to begin with. Perhaps ones with shimmering coppery designs where the glass panes meet or a latticework above the railings. The vertigo could have been achieved in a different way.
Honestly, the first thing I thought of when I saw it was "What's the purpose?" Sure, there's a nice view from the top...in some directions. Other directions are blocked by skyscrapers. If it had been incorporated into nearby buildings via walkways it would have been a neat way to see some sights while on your way, but I don't really get the point of it sitting out there by itself. Granted, I'm probably not the best to talk to about it, because I have the same concerns over the Eiffel Tower.
Although it is obviously not the focus of this video, thank you for talking about accessibility. It is often overlooked in architecture. Besides being not accessible, it really gives the building an extra message of "you're not welcome when not able bodied and very fit". I'm not surprised an architect/team that doesn't regard disabled people and accessibility doesn't care about the mental health aspect as well. Suicide prevention is another part of accessibility that's super important.
Reminds me when the American heart association's "take the stairs" day promotion involved some company buildings turning off their elevators for a day. One said building was a clinic 🤦🏻♀️
@@jrmckim That is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard, seriously did no one pause to think about what would happen?
I am so glad that it's mentioned in the video that this public place is against accessibility, it's just lots of stairs and it's for the physically abled and physically fit. Yes, there is an elevator but the person who designed this talked about being part of the experience is using the body physically, which is something not everyone can do so it already feels like he's leaving out that group of people.
I have went through Architecture training, and the very first thin that our professors tells us during freshman year, all through our final studio design are: If something where to happen in the spaces you design, it is your responsibility, you hands played a part, and your names are attached to the space. If good things happen in the space, you are allowed to take pride, but if bad things happen it is your responsibility and your fault. As Architecture it truly about creating a container for life and living.
If you design floors that are uneven and people trip, your fault.
If a todder's head got stuck between railing post that are too widely spaces, your fault.
If the barrier you design was too low to safely keep people in, absolutely your fault, your moral responsibility to make corrections where all corrections are possible.
I do think designers that refuses to make design alteration to protect lives are Evil.
(and when we start talking about inclusive design, we can be here all day and have a thessi by the end of it)
I visited the Vessel in 2020 with a bachelorette party, and as someone who has struggled with suicidal thoughts, I thought about what a "good" place this would be to jump from as I ascended. It was so obvious that it would happen. It was a great view but nerve-wracking at the same time, especially when you have the impulse to self-harm.
I truly hope you are in a better mind set! I know it's hard sometimes. Hugs!
@Amy Smith thank you, I am 💕
On a sort-of funny note: We gotta be real, we always ruin scenic shit
@@holothewisewolf2579 I don't mind ruining it for myself but I refuse to ruin it for others. I don't like harshing someone else's mellow.
For me the Vessel also seems like a perfect depression-booster. It's like a metaphor for how unfair life is. You climb a bunch of stairs to find only empty platforms, nothing to do except gaze at the skyscrapers all around you, where people can get much higher than you with the press of a button.
was waiting to see if Bobst would make an appearance - I was a freshman when the first two suicides happened. the problem with the plexiglass is it does immediately bring to mind *why* it's been put there in the first place, especially given how tacked on and ugly it was, way more than the aluminum redesign.
Hi
The nutty thing is, I was at NYU during the early 90s, and this topic was already old as fuck THEN. I like what they eventually did, but why did it take so long?
One would think the designers might have taken some cues from all the OTHER buildings and bridges and such that have had constant problems with suicidal situations. If only there were some global interconnected network of computers they could have turned to.
@@shelleyberry188 - the other thing about Bobst is the gorgeous floor which, from above, is somewhat alluring (for lack of a better word.) I can see someone who is already considering taking that horrible plunge being edged even closer to it by the allure of that amazing floor pattern, which seems to pull one into it. Not to make light of mental illness or suicidal ideation, but there can sometimes be an element of wanting to die in some meaningful or even beautiful way, and be remembered.
love your movie essays even if you stopped. hope the best for you
regarding the NYU library: I have heard students describe it as "cage like" & direct anger at NYU because even tho they spent millions on beautiful barriers they still refuse to provide students with mental health resources.
I follow a girl who was immediately expelled as a result of telling her guidance councilor she was suicidal because she was a legal liability to the school.
barriers aren't enough.
Barriers aren't enough, but it is one of the functional prevention strategies.
I agree mental health resources and proper training to providers in using these resources must be provided as well, and it goes hand in hand with all these other measures.
Ho.ly. Sh*t.
My son went to NYU and the pressures from the programs are enormous but also from parents. Someone on my sons floor died freshman year. You can’t blame the architecture-people need mental health services!!
Wtf? That doesn't help her mental health!
That sounds so dystopian to me. Is that normal in the US?
I actually visited the vessel on the day of the July 2021 suicide, only about an hour before. After finding out I came so close to seeing not only the end of another humans life, but one so close to my age, I was a little bit shaken to say the least. I don't understand how or why it stayed open after the first suicide.
As a New Yorker, as soon as this opened up, I knew there would be people who would use this to... unalive themselves. It was just way too easy. An 8 story tall installation with only waist high barriers? Anyone with more than two braincells could have seen these tragedies coming. I'll never understand why they didn't have taller glass barriers installed in the first place.
They had to at least have considering that, even in passing, right? Maybe it's just my own history with depression and ideation talking, but it was one of the first things I thought of when I heard about this structure.
The Sydney Harbour Bridge has high barriers. That curve inwards over the bridges walk way to help prevent people from jumping.
"It WoUlD CoMpRoMiSe ThE aRt" probably. The same sort of attitude that makes a man believe that THIS thing that HE built would be NY's answer to the fucking Eiffel Tower. Rampant, unrestrained ego.
@@ava_marie_v they did they had rails made already but they werent added which was stated by an employee in the video which just makes it worse
I dont see why all the walk ways couldnt be completely enclosed in glass
I lost one of my oldest friends to suicide in 2018. He was due to see me weeks before and cancelled last minute. He jumped. I still haven't processed it fully and I think about him EVERY day. Caitlin, this video is the first time I've fought past the urge to AVOID ALL MENTIONS OF SUICIDE. I watched this because I trust you. Thank you for coming true. It has helped me SO much just by starting a conversation in my brain that I should've allowed myself to have a while ago. THANK YOU.
I'm so sorry for your loss.
I think it was really brave of you to speak your mind in a public forum and it sounds like the video helped, so I'm really glad for you.
How are you?
You've reached a grief milestone. Congratulations and please know I'm sending you love because grief milestones are painful sometimes. I'm sorry for your loss, truly sorry.
I'm so, so sorry for your loss. And I'm glad you can begin to process and that this helped with that. Random internet stranger but you'll be in my thoughts.
I'm sorry for your loss
When I first saw it my first thought was ominous. Second thought, authoritarian. Third, lifeless and ugly. Learning about the suicides was not too surprising. It occurs to me that on an emotional and subconscious level modern structures like this call to the suicidal. That people who whine about the views speak their own lack of progress toward full humanity.
This video is impressive. I had suicidal ideations years ago and I remember that it was because of deep deep unrelenting emotional pain. I just wanted the pain to go away. I understand people visiting this place and becoming inspired in the moment to end the pain. I've also visted the Guggenheim, and there would have been no inspiration in that place to end the pain, rather an emotional uplift instead. Your analysis is wonderful. By the way, I'm another person who is very very glad I didn't "jump."
Against the warnings at the start of the video, I decided to watch while feeling/thinking very intently about suicide. Everything you do is interesting to me and I can't hold back my curiosity for long. So even with the warning and knowing today I was feeling very "intensely" about it, I wanted to stick around. Learning about the instant regret experienced by the Golden Gate survivors was so sobering and grounding, and gave credence to the little part of myself that knows I want to be alive. Suddenly I don't feel like digging deeper into those thoughts. Thank you for everything you do.
Please accept my love and best wishes! You deserve relief. I hope the resources Caitlin posted can provide you the support you need.
Think of those you'd leave behind. Please don't do anything to harm yourself. Don't be selfish. Just give it 1 second, 1 minute, 1 hour, 1 day, 1 week, 1 month, 1 year at a time, and you'll see that you can make it. You truly will. Here's some love for you from a complete stranger. ❤️
You seem like a kind person, taking the time to mention how this helped you in spite of everything you're going through! Best wishes!
*hugs* hang in there. It will get better, you've got people who care about you. And just know this: you're beautiful and worth so much more than you maybe know right now.
Jesus loves you very very much, infact, enough to die for you! God Bless & take good care of your precious self.
The library example is brilliant
DO NOT POST ANY REPLY!DO NOT MENTION ANYTHING ABOUT TIMEBUCKS OR I WILL REJECT YOUR SUBMISSION,JUST THUMBS UP AND THAT'S IT
As a native New Yorker I have absolutely zero desire to visit Hudson yards. I've never done the new years time square nonsense either. Totally agree with your opinion on this. NYU got it right. When I want to see " art " I go to the Met.
When I saw this in NYC a couple years ago on an art trip I remember not liking it. And then because I'm an artist I tried to dissect why I didn't like it since there are other large public works that I do like. I eventually concluded that it just felt soulless to me. Now I know why.
@@Nerevarine420 I don’t understand why what I said was arrogant or asshole ish. I was being genuine. Please explain?
The fact that the architects would rather have the vessel be closed than build safety barriers says everything I need to know about how much they really care about the "community".
Well said! I completely agree with you.
AMEN.
As someone who lived in New York I felt that the public art in front of a business was a statement of how that business felt about the common New Yorker. Some were friendly and colorful, or even useful (usually artistic benches). A personal favorite was a huge spiky metal ball that in summer would spray water out the tips of its spikes so it looked like a giant dandelion puff. The kids loved that one and the water mist was so nice on hot days. Some even have interactive art that plays music or other fun activities.
With that in mind it doesn't surprise me that New Yorkers would hate a piece like this. To them this would make quite a statement about how the complex feels about the average New Yorker. "We won't let you into our overpriced private community so here, have a sculpture that represents the empty grind of your pathetic lives." The shear emptiness of the interior is overwhelming. It is a climb with no real purpose or even much of a reward (you know, if I wanted a view from 10 stories up I could have just gone into any building). I'm only surprised that it hasn't been vandalized yet.
Oh! We have a structure like that in Loring Park, it's a fountain and a bit of an architectural icon.
One could say that about any hike to the top of any hill or mountain, as well, but... one doesn't. So, maybe it doesn't make much sense.
Well said. Accurate.
unfortunately a lot of artistic benches are a form of hostile architecture made to stop homeless people from sleeping on them
@@MaryAnnNytowl not "any" hill or mountain. In my city (glasgow, Scotland) there're only a couple of hills I'm gonnae climb for the view alone. The others I climb to get into a building or for the pleasant experience - but if there was a shitty little one with nothing to see at the top, no lovely sights/sounds/smells on the way AND no functional reason to be there? Nah, I'll just stay on the ground, thanks.
I one hundred percent feel the "it's easy enough to say a space is for us when everyone around is like you" sentiment. I live in Vancouver, BC in Canada and it has totally become a metropolis for wealth. They talk about inclusivity when it is so dang expensive to live here, it makes a lot of people wonder why they're still here. Thanks for bringing in that POV because I totally would never have thought of that myself. Love your videos Caitlyn :)
My city did architecture like this for the newly built huge psychiatric hospital. (Despite warnings from doctors, nurses, architects and regular people alike). It looks like an ominous huge metal cheese grater on the outside, and to get anywhere inside you have to walk across walkways suspended in mid-air with waist-level railings, all the way up to the top floor (seven floors up).
They’ve now finally installed plexiglass above the railings, but it’s still completely see-through and everyone walking there talks about still feeling an instinctive urge to jump - even non-patients and the doctors themselves. The huge building of this new and modern psychiatric hospital is practically built to incite suicidal feelings, and the rest of the architecture is very harsh too, all metal and glass despite the existence of hundreds of scientific studies on what architecture and interior design makes people feel safe, and what design gives off a cold, harsh, uncaring feeling.
But, like in this video, the people who made the decisions didn’t care about that, and all warnings went on deaf ears. I’ve been there to visit a friend with anorexia, and it’s honestly horrifying. The elevator walls are made of glass too, so as you’re ascending you see the atrium floor disappear further and further down as the view you have starts looking like you’re on the top of a bridge and ready to jump. If anyone wants to get a taste for what it feels like to be on the verge of committing suicide, going into that building is a surefire way to do so.
That "hospital" sounds horrific!!! .... I would like to look it up online . Can you tell us where it is /the name? Please?
And that glass elevator would freak me right out..... Nope ....
I was like, "Wow, The Vessel looks a lot like one of the tourist traps on my campus." Turns out Thomas Heatherwick designed our dim sum building as well.
wow, this dude's a menace
Smfh
I think he also designs for car companies as his designs reminds me of a car grill.
Looks like it needs an umbrella and swizzle stick.🏝
@@chrisardern4594 it reminds me of that hotel hell episode where the dude was running the most. cold uncomfortable hotel based off of cars.
maybe heatherwick's skills wouldve been more useful over there
As someone who has tried to commit suicide, I can say with confidence that if a person really wants to die, an entrance fee and guards won't help. If you've been depressed for long enough, you know how to fake being in a good state of mind to get the guards off your back. If you choose to die at that exact spot, why not pay the price for it, even if it maxes out your credit card, when you'll be too dead to pay it off?
I think that it's fair to apply this argument further. Even the railings and safety net would not stop the suicide. They would just move it elsewhere, out of the public eye. I can see how that would be desirable, but there is no moral value here.
I'm glad you're still with us.
@@andrewlitvinov7266 That's something she covers in the video, and actually, those things do help. There's research that proves their effectiveness.
@@sebastian122 thanks :)
@Atom maybe spread your religious messages somewhere not talking about suicide? Just a thought
It's so interesting that the inspiration for the Vessel, the stepwells, are so beautiful to me and the Vessel just feels like a greyed out imitation. The stepwells are beautiful demonstrations of geometry. They held an important purpose for keeping people alive. Even the materials used, organic warm colored stone against the deep green or blue water, feel more welcoming. Where the Vessel seems to be an enemy of anyone with a mobility aid, the stepwells were created to make it easier to reach water. The Vessel seems like it saw the stairs and completely missed the point of why they're beautiful and useful. I've never visited either, but I feel like my reaction to an ancient well would be of awe at the engineering skills, geometric beauty, and the spiritual connection people had with them. While the vessel would create conflicting feelings of depression and determination to climb to a reward that wouldn't be worth it.
As a person who tried/has been suicidal and also accepts death at any moment. I can say that the barriers are like when people call someone before they try to unalive themselves. If they’re was a bridge like that or highway in Maryland that I could find and get over the barrier I would’ve did it but if I couldn’t get over I would immediately rethink.
To your question about an architect's ethical responsibility: we are responsible. In the AIA Code of Ethics, which are ideals to be followed by all architects or you risk losing your license and ability to practice, architects are required to design for the health, welfare, and safety of occupants. We can't guarantee that someone isn't going to harm themselves or others in a building, but designing the vessel without higher guardrails was a selfish design "decision" for "aesthetics." Although it meets code requirements for it's classification, additional barriers should have been included for public safety.
On a personal note I also can’t imagine knowing something you helped design became a tool for self harm. Sounds pretty devastating to me.
@Atom I don't get it
@@laurenlawson6567 most likely spam...
It adheres to code. We're not responsible beyond that. If my design adheres to code and can be constructed-- that's a win for me and my firm. If a person decides to jump from a mansion's balcony because it has railings to code and not something outrageous like 5'-6" instead of 3'-6" it isn't my fault. Same decision here.
@@MLUdrea that’s why she’s taking about the importance of ethics, way to miss the whole point of the video
"Good intentions do not inoculate you from criticism"
I'm so stealing that Ms. Doughty
The only thing that stopped me once was the lack of access to the bridge I was considering once. These things save lives.
Honestly, I think honeycomb netting would work really well with the design of the vessel.
I remember when the vessel was announced everyone commented that people would try to commit suicide on it. They were right.
@Benjamin David Lurie Said Jesus?
The Sydney Harbour Bridge has high barriers. That curve inwards over the bridges walk way to help prevent people from jumping.
@Benjamin David Lurie how utterly hypocritical you are. Get professional help.
@Benjamin David Lurie As a christian, we don't claim you.
@@itwasagoodideaatthetime7980 barely anyone walks over the Sydney harbour bridge tho
As an engineering student who talks a lot about engineering ethics, I can say it’s the designer’s responsibility to consider all possible misuses of the design and do their best to prevent it. Glass walls wouldn’t have been difficult or out of budget.
As a student, you are out of your depth.
@@FUnzzies1 And what do you know to argue that? Are you going to an engineering school? Do you know any specifics on the ethics of engineering? Blocking out conversation isn't helping anything.
I agree that it is the designer's responsibility to consider all possible misuses, especially as the possible "misuse" that could occur with the Vessel were not unknown. And not only by the designer but then by everybody else around that conference table discussing the creation.
I'm not engineering student or anything but I like art. Glass windows that are slatened like vent on each cell would was my first thought. I believe they wanted to keep the air flow. the flow of the building would be the only reason I could think they didn't even put it in a glass box that touch just the edges if the structure. Like they did with the model.
As someone who has stood at the bottom of a bridge that had a low barriers for days, my heart bleeds for those who couldn't walk away. I 100% agree with you.
@@FUnzzies1 man come on. That was so unnecessary to say.
Barriers can be functional and beautiful as you said. It's such a shame the designer doesn't want to compromise at all. And as someone who attempted, small deterrents really help.
I also noticed the other architect building with the art, also had slopes, making it accessible to everyone
As im typing 23 minutes in, im crying because of what art and beauty around us can change someone's possible thoughts of suicide. I honestly really want to make a difference, and my heart is with people in general, between children and adults. We all matter and are important. I've found my calling, and I think it's being a therapist.
As a civil engineer from middle europe, my university years were filled by telling us: low railing = people are falling down = ticket to jail. We were taught to put tall railing everywhere, no matter what architects say or how ugly it gets because in the moment someone falls (or jumps because he can get past the railing) we have the full responsibility. Never even thought that real engineer would let something like this be built. Or that in US there are no safety norms for this like in EU.
Ummm isn't this architect from Europe?
The architect was British. This thing made all sorts of violations of US code (limited handicapped access was another big one), most of which they got past by simply ignoring them, some of which they stalled on by arguing that it was not whichever structure the code was meant for. Basically, they tried to call it a sculpture, not a building, and hold out until it was completed and a fait accompli, then hold off renovations with stalling and lawyers.
I think the architects who won't take responsibility have thought it through, and simply decided they care more about looks than people's lives. This should be illegal.
There's a hell of a lot of difference between an elite architect and a civil engineer. Civil engineers literally have a professional code of ethics because people depend on what you design.
The thing I find most offensive about this and some other big-"art" projects is that they so ostentatiously have no underlying purpose other than symbolism. I love art and symbolism is the important, but if you're spending $150 million to build something huge on some of the most valuable land in the world, it should have many purposes or you're just doing it wrong. Oh, and that it imitates the functional design of a step well makes it even worse.
Karoline: It's really a matter of personal responsibility. I can find a way to jump off the Golden Gate Bridge. It doesn't mean I should. Aside from that, if someone really is set on ending their life all high railings and suicide nets mean is that someone will end their life in a way other than jumping off a bridge.
Now if it truly was a failure of engineering, like the Hyatt Regency walkway collapse in Kansas City, Missouri in the 1980s, there are consequences. The firm that allowed that design change without the proper analysis permanently lost their engineering license.
I love how the people running the library addressed the safety issue. It's functional and beautiful.
I've never understood why safety and accessibility is not more widely seen as an inspiring aesthetic challenge instead of something to sulkily tack on after the fact when someone *foreseeably* complains. There's not much of a reasonable excuse for new construction to fail so consistently in this way.
cost
I see what you mean but these people aren't dying in accidents. They are purposefully jumping. Do you know how many people k*ll themselves by hanging every year? According to your logic is it the rope manufacturer's fault? Is it the stores fault for making rope so accessible? No it isn't. We are all responsible for our own actions. It isn't the designer's fault. It isn't the cities fault. If someone decides they're going to d*e then that is their choice. People have the literal human RIGHT to do what they want their own bodies and it is not up to you or me or anyone else to try to control that . I believe we all have the right to choose to d*e. People who don't think so are people who have never truly experienced the true depth of suffering possible. There are some things so terrible that cause so much mental distress and suffering that there is no possible happiness that exists in life to outweigh it. If anything it's the federal government and the insurance companies fault for basically closing down all long term free mental health institutions. We need to reopen state/federal run long term mental health hospitals.
@@vmorning3506 Arrogance
@@vmorning3506 There is no reason why safety and accessibility can't be part of the initial design and construction.
@@WhitneyDahlin You need to watch the video again. Perhaps educating yourself about depression would help too.
A shame this now age restricted, more people need to know about this, I’m glad you covered something I’ve seen in passing so respectfully. Very informative.
I was living with suicidal thoughts the majority of my life, passive periods changing active self-harming phases
Last year i was in a plein air activity with my art group in college and a priest offered ur to climb a monastery tower. Going up endless spiral staircases and feeling closed up in the structure of a building and then sudden change to standing in open bright area of the bell tower, seeing world around us while small bird skeletons lied near our feet made me recall thoughts about "freeing" in the most morbid way possible and the only thing that held me from jumping was common sense and understanding of how disrespectful it would be to people who were there with me not even mentioning the problems it would bring to my teacher and the church
What i wanted to say is that an enclosed building with a lot of stairs and open areas are not the best thing for people with suicidal tendencies
(Sorry for any grammatical errors im not a native speaker)
As a tall person (who is afraid of heights but still regularly tempts them) "waist height" railings always scare me a lot since in my case usually they are lower than my waist and I feel like if anybody accidentally bumped into me or for some reason pushed me I'd be close to falling but even if I didn't i'd definietly get a panic attack.
You're absolutely right. Railings that don't go higher than your center of gravity are very hazardous.
I can’t find the article anymore but I once read that this is especially an issue in the Netherlands where people are tall and the regulations on railing heights changing but older buildings being quite dangerous
Don't forget about the wind! I was knocked off my feet before by a strong gust of wind and that's why I fear the grand canyon and being near the edge of anything.
heck, I'm 'average' height but proportionally my legs are long so most 'waist height' railings are also short for me! it's quite scary, especially with older railings that are creaky
I'm not even particularly tall and "waist height" railing scare the crap out of me. I can't really even stand being on the second floor of the local mall because the railings are so low.
Also the fact that it's called "the vessel" and the fact that it sort of looks like a rib cage, but is black and empty. There's something about that which might appeal to a suicidal person who feels hopeless and disconnected from life/their body. I think exploring that kind of dark feeling is a valid thing for art to do, but it isn't wise to put art that invokes those feelings so prominently in a public place.
I actually thought it was a ribcage from the thumbnail. It is quite gruesome in that insulated-from-reality way.
It reminds me of a funerary urn. If they'd made it from jolly coloured materials, I might have thought "flower pot" instead.
I was thinking ribcage or wasps' nest. It might be beautiful, but it's definitely not uplifting. Someone from the psych field should have been consulted on how to *NOT* make this thing a magnet for potential jumpers.
Yeah, it's an empty vessel, it calls to that part of me which was suicidal in the past.
Yes indeed!
It's amazing that they are so resistant to barriers because that structure is perfect for barriers just like the ones created in the library.
My daughter (15) who has a history of self harm and suicidal thoughts was the first person I thought of when you started this story. Soon as I seen that design I just imagined her jumping.
Right when I had that ungodly image in my head you mentioned the 14 old on a family vacation and ended his life. So freaking tragic. I would never want to take my daughter anywhere near that thing. I do believe that things and spaces can hold some type of evil spirit or something like that. I think this piece of "art" is one of those things.
As the first part of my comment, I would like to say that my brother ‘used’ a public construction to commit S, several years ago, my comment is not based on naïveté of this devastating situation…
If a company makes a knife, they are not responsible for a murder committed with it
We cannot and should not coat the world in sponge and erect 50 ft barbed wire fences around every item constructed in case somebody chooses to use your structure
to harm themselves
As a life-long NYer, I can say definitely that what people need from urban planners are more safe and happy places for community interaction. Mental illness was already rampant a few years back, but since the pandemic it has become overwhelming. People are lonely and desperate, driven to commit violence acts against themselves and others. I see it pretty often. People need an accessible place with, idk, maybe some trees and child-friendly structures, a place that is a foil to the grim stress of daily urban life.
While this structure might be cool to explore, it is truly the antithesis of what would benefit the majority of citizens of NYC. It makes me mad.
I agree with you - this thing is not about the quality of life for the masses but a cornicopia for the wealthiest - that All of a sudden realized "that one Day we are all gonna die... - including Them", it is a legacy I Guess!? Much big Bird your way my Friend.
@@dortesandal4303 exactly. It’s the hypocrisy and condescending remarks of those behind the project that are so infuriating.
YES it needs to be replaced with a park. billionaires are fucking lizards who dont understand normal people.
@@nocomment2468 I know, but they do not realize it, only a few, very, very few feel the neccesity, urgent as it is, to step Up, with and for All of us. And they have to be careful...as the old saying goes - it is freezing Cold at the top, you conscend or you die!! More Big Bird or not my Friend.
Why do you pay so much money to live in such a miserable city
So I’m an engineer and as of 2010 most engineering colleges have required ethics courses and it was hammered into my class that our responsibilities as professionals go beyond just the construction and we can let our biases come through our designs even if we didn’t notice it.
@don't be surprised stop spamming. This isn't the place for your crap.
this 'building' is basically a case study in failed design ethics, I hope it ends up in textbooks
As someone who got a degree that was associated with an engineering college, we not only had a required ethics course but a course dedicated to looking at man made disasters/accidents and analyzing why those disasters/accidents happened and what was put into place to prevent those things from happening again. Seems like the designer of the Vessel could benefit from taking that course.
@@juliecampbell860 It depends. I used to work in nuclear power and the one thing hammered was procedural complacence. This was done by telling many horror stories about bad QA and QC. It was done by hammering every rule violation. With most buildings being a static thing, what process concerns could you have beyond verifying that the actual structure meets the blueprint in all respects?
@@griffenspellblade3563 Most people (I would hope) would understand that creating an installation that tall might attract those who want to end their life, and it should be considered. Not to mention with how low these railings actually are, it poses other safety risks as well. All it would take is one kid climbing on the railing while their parent was distracted to have a tragic accident.
I'm studying to be an architect, this building actually has been talked about in my class previously, one of reason is safety points. I didn't know that you covered this. This is a good take..
So I have been suicidal so I am in the hospital. I remembered watching this video before and it making me more ok so I turned it on in the back ground as I was drawing. This has literally helped me hold on even if falling would make the world greener and easier. Especially the statistics for regret helped.
Are you okay now, @typosinthebrain5363 ?
There's nothing quite as bleak as being poor and facing a massive multimillion dollar structure, that ultimately, when labeled as "for us", really only represents the grueling labor and endless climb to absolutely nothing and nowhere, which is what most most jobs for people like us are. Endless stairs and hard work to be greeted at the top by nothing more than a hollow void and a nice view? Sounds exactly like the demanding and thankless physical labor of every average job, where you work your butt off and scrape every penny you can get, and in the end you're just working towards a pretty dream you'll probably never reach.
Maybe that's not how everyone feels, but I personally have been living below federal poverty level my entire life, I work gard and I get nowhere, and well meaning stupid rich people get to live of the efforts of me and the people around me. I'd probably throw myself off their useless little staircase as well.
that's a pretty eloquent description of the Vessel's meaning, but possibly not the architect's intent. A true symbol of how art is not always controllable
I like your description here. I also feel the same way to some degree.
in london's marble arch area a £2,000,000 tourist attraction was built to attract tourists, it was half a hill made out of scaffolding and you could see some bins from the top. meanwhile there are more people in poverty than ever before. the council tore it down two months later.
@Cassie M.
This is amazing. This is literally the best description of what I felt looking at that thing.
@@jameswhite153 it actually stayed open to the public for like 4 months. Opened July 2021, temporarily closed until August when it reopened and then closed for good January 2022. I saw it in December. Still looked like crap and was home to a lot of pigeons but people were still paying to go up it lol
The fact he stated "we can't predict how it will be used" ahead of time, shows that they DID predict it and chose to ignore it.
I would say that the hope was that it would be used as a center of performative art, as a backdrop for movies or celebrations of New York, and other positive things. The designer and builder had just loving and positive feelings towards their art piece that they were blinded to the reality of how others would view it or feel when up in it. But I would think that progressively higher railings and other installations would add to the art and help the overall feeling be more uplifting.
Damn straight!
To me "we can't predict how it will be used" also sounds like "we don't take any responsibility about how it will be used".
100%
Not true at all.
I attempted suicide in my late teens. It was entirely impulsive and one emergency room trip later, I truly regretted my decision. I can understand how barriers would work. They give you a chance to think and despite the fact that life still really feels hard at times for me, I am so so thankful now that I survived.
I spent many years as a shock trauma nurse in Baltimore. A young man jumped from a very high local bridge and was picked up by some fishermen and survived, although harmed. I asked him what he was thinking as he left that bridge and he responded - I tried my best to fly backwards to that bridge by flapping my arms! He most certainly regretted his actions.
Yeah as someone who was suicidal for much of my teenage and young adult life, the vessel looks like a depressing dystopian hellscape. Stairs to nowhere, outwardly gilded in copper and gold with an internal look of dead end office stairways all surrounded by overpriced luxury shops meant to gouge every cent possible out of you? That would drain the zest of life out of anyone
The part about preventing deaths just by giving architecture a purpose makes me think of the Canadian Museum of Human Rights, a large, open building with long, featureless concrete bridges between sections. It's spacy enough that usually, you (or your group) are usually the only person walking the bridge, and there are no full barriers to prevent people from climbing over and falling. The content of the museum itself is also obviously very sad, and for many visitors, hits close to home. And despite all that, there's never been a suicide attempt there. I've been there a few times and, as somebody with a fear of heights and depression, I feel weirdly safe on those walkways. The designers intended them to be meditative, to give people a break between difficult museum sections and give them space to think about what they've learned, and it works.
Sounds like a challenging concept, with a positive outcome. But in all cases i think there should be a plan B available right at the start of building, should the original concept not work out. Clearly in many cases, such as the vessel, there is no alternative thought of at all.
I think it's pitiful that we can't have nice things like this. I understand people wanting to protect the vulnerable, but I'd never put the blame on the builder. Ever.
@@soleursuelos3616 The blame for their death isn’t on the builder, but it is sort of their responsibility. If you were to build something that people use to off themselves, it’s up to you to put in preventative mesures, even if their deaths weren’t your fault. You can’t really expect (in most, not all) cases that your building is going to be the place people want to die at, but once they do, it’s sort of your duty to put something there to stop other people from deciding that they should do that too.
It is like that. The walls are thick and grey and you end up staring at them and crying. It does feel safe there. I don't know why.
I think if one person were to jump, it would start a cascade of events when that news story popped into the head of suicidal people during a time of crisis.
That was intensely moving.
You are amazing at how you handle such difficult subjects.
I must confess, I skip watching 2-3 of your videos to binge watch all of them at once. I always feel like watching more if I only watch one but watching all at once still leaves me wanting more! Love your content!
Just as a viewer here at CZcams, the Vessel seems dark and oppressive, each level overhanging the next, pressing down rather than opening up and out as I assume was the intention. The center is darkened by the ever-reaching layers above and around it. Standing at the bottom, inside or out, must feel like one is being loomed over. It does look like a sort of beehive, and that makes me think that enclosing the whole thing in a well-designed, honey-gold "comb" of safety netting would actually make the thing beautiful and much safer. A garden could be added, or even planters on the structure, to encourage real bees and butterflies. It's a pity so much money has been spent on something so ultimately terrible.
It definitely should have plants incorporated into the design along with safety measures.
100% agree! It would actually make sense that way, and the future isn’t 1980’s pointless megastructures - it’s nature and the environment, and being made accessible for people who have disability. The one constant suggestion on all comments about it is that it “needs nature features”, in so many words. It’s true the artist wants to give “disenchanted bourgeois cosmopolitans the feeling of being off-balance and ‘at the edge of death’”. It’s designed for dinosaurs. I hope they change it or else it should be demolished. Will be, anyway in twenty years when these old, obsolete mega-consumer dinosaurs are extinct.
Yeah, something is way off about The Vessel. It for sure has a dark energy about it, then add the suicides, which I feel this thing draws to itself. The Vessel is not "art", so many horrible things are passed off as "art" .
Oh hey, I see I wasn't the only one thinking of a fence in a honey hive combs pattern! I agree with you, I think that would look gorgeous!
Only judging by what I see in the video, the words empty and despair come to mind. I imagine it would be worse in person.
as an artist, architect, disability activist, someone with depression, and a survivor of multiple attempts, I can say that everything about this feels wrong. architecture ALWAYS has to have the needs of the people involved, and art needs to be accessible. in my opinion, this feels like art as a status symbol (which I personally do not believe to be true art), rather than art for the sake of art
That's exactly what it is. A giant manifestation of "fuck you money" that does nothing except remind visitors that they don't belong in Hudson Yards.
As for retrofitting for safety, it's legitimate to ask whether the structure itself can handle the additional weight and stress of new railings/barriers. High glass walls might be interesting and would be artistically relevant (it's a big cup, after all), but vulnerability to wind and vandalism would have to be taken into account.
Genuine question: Would it have been more accessible to people with disabilities/wheelchair users if they had replaced some of the stairs with ramps? Or would the angle still be too awkward to try to climb up?
This does not seem like a well-thought through project.
I feel like they all knew exactly what was going to happen and didn't give a shit and still don't. This thing is an eyesore nightmare that really does look like a bedbug
@@KaylaKasel the angle would be waaaaaaay to steep, imagine pushing yourself up a ramp as steep as stairs are, using only your arms. Not fun, especially for multiple stories
@@KD-ou2np Yeah, that's what I thought. I just didn't know if it could be considered comparably better. Still terrible though.
Such an excellent presentation. Your research is always thoughtful and thorough. Thank you, Caitlin.
I have attempted suicide twice. YES, higher barriers are a must. For my own psychological issues, I have this tiny bit of hope that I hope I will make it. But I'm still here.
I’m happy you are still here, friend :)
The height of the wall around the top level of a parking garage at my college saved my life. At the time, cold and depressed and exhausted, it felt almost humiliating that I couldn't mount the wall, but now I'm just grateful for the impediment. I know for a fact that I'm not the only one on campus stopped by the design either, and that my friends, is good architecture.
So glad you’re still here 💜
Came to reply the same. ✨💕✨
So happy you are here today & I’m sure your family/friends are too. 💕
It is tempting when given the opportunity during a rough spot in life. We have to keep others in mind and protect each other.
@@jessn.2665 But wrapping everyone in bubble wrap is NOT the way to do it! How many potential opportunities were missed to help him BEFORE the thought of suicide became apparent?
As a New Yorker: everyone I know in this city sees this building as the epitome of hypergentrification architecture and a symbol of the dystopian direction of city planning. People in my circles were protesting this- as a giant outpost of luxury housing in a city that's been in an affordable housing crisis for literal decades- years ago, and there was a giant labor dispute during its construction because of the project's hiring of non-union labor. Now that it exists I know people who are positively charmed by how incredibly malign and cyberpunk the energy is but the majority see it as a blight and a horror.
There is something really fitting about how concrete 'oh, bee tee dubz, this is also now a suicide hotspot' is as a concrete, immediately recognisable reflection of more insidious harms to the community. As a suicide survivor, I'll be glad if they manage to institute safeguards so it can't be a site of impulsive self-destruction, but it sucks that something this malign can only be recognised when people start dying gruesome deaths on the premises.
Those buildings are not for billionaires to live in, they're for money laundering. For billionaires.
New York has become far too expensive with much too much luxury development, but critiques of gentrification usually spend all their time criticizing symptoms instead of causes. It is an intellectually shallow political critique.
It's like...I don't know how to put my feelings into exact words, but to know that they were going to be so innovative and create an entire community literally just for people with money to blow because who tf can live off of paying 50000 for a 1 bedroom apartment? Rich people, 3 million for a condo, obviously rich people, that whole gated community was going to be just another playground for the rich and wealthy, it wasn't even gonna be accessible for regular people or even be a community where it was affordable to live or even be a place that would actually in some way while also being a marvle and a tourist attraction, help, I actually think that in some way it would probably find a way to make New York more expensive to just breathe in.
@@dfwdfw9544 to critique the causes, you'd have to take it up with the billion-dollar real estate companies buying houses for above market price with cash in high demand areas. there's obviously a lot to critique that is mostly common sense but not a lot to be done outside of spreading the world and showing up in person to protests and council meetings in terms of addressing the cause since we're talking about uber wealthy people likely with government influence. gentrification simply won't stop, so it's a lot more realistic and easier to deal with the symptoms that the city is already dealing with. my very own block in queens is being gentrified before my eyes and there's nothing i can physically do
@@dfwdfw9544 not to mention the video is literally about a "symptom" of gentrification, hence the comment. very plastic holier-than-thou critique of critique.
I'm so glad that you brought up a lot of the topics that you did in this video.
I'm disabled, so bringing up accessibility felt really nice. It's something that a lot of people don't consider because they can walk just fine, and often expect everyone else to be able to do so, but that is far from the case.
And then you covered the subject of mental health and safety. Not only am I disabled, but I'm also a manic depressive. I'm on good medication now, but there have been times in my life where I have very heavily considered suicide. Having a simple measure such as nets is so important. That can change a mind. It's one little thing that can keep someone from taking that leap.
Truly, thank you for making this video. Thank you for discussing very difficult topics that not a lot of people want to. It needs to be discussed, though. Safety really should come first.
This was such a good video, I loved every second of it! Absolutely appreciate Caitlin, she is so very introspective and profound in her findings. Discovering her is one of my biggest joys in the last two years.
Such an irony that you are identified with a 'death culture' since your videos are often the most thoughtful and life-affirming things out there -- kudos to everyone involved in their production ❤️
I'm currently in my final year of architecture school and one of the things that we talk about when discussing code for a building is that it is the bare minimum you have to do. And at my school we always talk about striving to do better than just what the code asks. Not only that but anything that we design to be created is meant to serve others and not ourselves as designers. This video did a really good job of expressing this and how we should always be creating to improve other people's lives and not make it worse.
Lynda, I started architecture and drafting while in Junior High (US 7th grade) and went all the way through the start of University. Nothing like this was ever discussed. I'm certainly glad that doing "more than the minimum" is now part of the design language. I have been weirded-out since standing on a 25-ish story roof and looking over the low knee-height wall at the plaza below while filming an eclipse. It's made me wonder about this ever since when I travel to places like Miami, where you see tiny balconies with a small railing over 30 stories up. It seems to be normal for so many people to live mere inches from such a drop. Has this always been normal? Was the 1950's attitude to safety the way things were seen? ("What they do is up to them, eh. Fuggedaboutit.")
I had a college friend who took a degree in Architectural Engineering. Every student in her graduating class received an iron ring as a reminder that they have life in their hands. Congratulations in advance and all best hopes for success in life
@@flyingdutchman4794 what does the iron ring symbolize? Tyia
@@dougspidermanhappy For me, a civil engineer, the iron ring (stainless steel in my case), was because I joined the Order of the Engineer and took a vow (the obligation). As engineers, we have an obligation to serve the public good. The obligation is easily found online (so I don't have to copy-paste it here).
We wear the ring on the pinky of our writing hand to serve as a reminder of our obligation to the public. I like to think that the ring rests on the page as we write (let's pretend we don't live in the digital age for a moment, hehe).
@@dougspidermanhappy Elemental iron metal is strong but also brittle; it polishes beautifully but is prone to corrosion. It is a structural metal which also is at the center of human hemoglobin. The symbolism is that iron can produce structures of great strength, but care must be exercised in its use and maintenance.
The alchemists also believed that iron could hold evil in abeyance, FWIW
This is amazing. Thank you so much for making this video.
I can tell you from experience, that at times when I can't find an item to self harm with (I hide stuff oit of reach when I get to that point) it gives me a time to think and not be so impulsive about my decision. As stated for some people it is a spur of a moment decision and those barriers giving people a pause to think is so so so important
I climbed this very soon after it opened and I wondered why the railings were so "low" compared to the height of the structure - especially at the top! It was kind of scary, not gonna lie. Also, the messaging of an "empty, open vessel" holds eerie meaning for me. Vessels should be able to hold :)
Exactly, as I was staring at it I thought it could have had an inner garden, like a low maintenance garden that hangs down off the railings. It's pretty but bare. An empty nest with no life. A bit of a bummer
Vote to "Vandalize" the vessel with a giant egg?
All I can think of is the anxiety of ever having your child there, especially after hearing a 14 year old boy died there. I honestly don’t understand how anyone would be sooo against keeping people safe
The Vessel isn’t empty- it holds people. That’s the point. Or at least it did until the suicides shut it down.
@@Syd448 Safe means secured against accidents, suicide prevention is protection against intent and human ingenuity. You son was perfectly safe all the time
The Bloor Viaduct in Toronto was a hotspot for people wanting to commit suicide. By 1997, there was an average of one person jumping to their death every 22 days. A barrier called The Luminous Veil was constructed across the span as both art and for prevention. It won an award for architecture and has worked amazingly.
Yes!I walked or biked over this viaduct almost every other day while living on the Danforth, it was truly beautiful at night. In addition, contact poles and suicide prevention signs are in place.
thanks for bringing this up. the name escaped me
I was looking to see if anyone had mentioned the Luminous Veil in this conversation and was going to bring it up if no one else had. It's really lovely at night. It's so comforting to see it and think that not only is it pleasing to look at, it's also decreasing suicide attempts in the area.
A brilliant video. As an Urban Planner and a long time subscriber, this video has really got me thinking about how my industry and the architecture industry needs to put safety and wellbeing ahead of aesthetics
I love how eloquently you discuss prevention. Thank you!
Thank you for the care, compassion, and overall reality of this video.
Also, I finally have a word for my taste..."ethical bouginess"
Hey Khadija, hope you're well.
Looks like YT deleted a lot from this reply…big blank space…
Okay, here's the thing. As someone who enjoys a lot of creative hobbies, I can understand the idea of 'ugly railings' being thought of an unwanted rule to hinder creation--but it's all how you look at it. A lot of times artists will challenge themselves to making art under difficult situations or with limited materials. SURELY, there is a way that safety measures like railings can be made a part of the design in a beautiful and creative way--so much so that it's not even seen as railings anymore! (Edit: annnnd okay, you get right into that stance, haha, this is what I get for commenting in the middle of a video, lol.)
Yep! Constraints can actually result in more creative design, which any artist or creator knows.
It's not that hard to make a beautiful railing. Just add shiny metal or a glass wall.
I think some kind of well spaced barriers of glass plating would work well with the design. In a way it would not only compliment the aesthetic, and eliminate the need for netting but also give some protection from wind and adverse weather.
If you can't design something pretty and safe, you just can't design.
Teehee, you're my mind of commenter, Yuri. Personally, my ADHD usually flares up so bad I just have to comment before a video is over. This happens to me a lot lol
Thank you Caitlin for you time, research and realism. You are a very educated woman whose content I enjoy very much. ~from a realist and historian
I went in hoping you would address the Vessel's atrociously bad vibes, and I'm glad you did. Hudson Yard is a despair vortex for anyone who cares about class inequality.
Pretty much what I thought only 1:30 into this vid.
New World Order vibes.
@@kitlee172 Yep, five sided for a reason?
@@alwayscensored6871 I mean, let's Occam's Razor this. Rich people being irresponsible is sufficient to explain this whole thing, no NWO needed.
Caring about "Class inequality" is silly and ridiculous twaddle of people who don't have anything productive to do.
I worked in the Hudson Yards mall when it first opened adjacent to the Vessel in 2019. The very first time I saw the Vessel in person, I said “someone is going to take their life on that thing.”
One of the main things that I’d add to this conversation (because I now find the place repugnant) is that pretty much every element of Hudson Yards construction was rushed. While it looks polished on the outside, I worked inside the mall before it opened to the public and soooo many things were insanely behind schedule. The Vessel was undergoing construction up until the last minute; I could see it outside every day. When the mall opened to the public, there were still multiple stores that hadn’t opened yet. Our store had leaks, plumbing issues, air/heat problems, and it had JUST been built. I already know that THE problem with Hudson Yards is the billionaire urge to just get it done already so they can enjoy their investment. It’s gross.
It's also that they bid these projects out to the lowest cost contractor who inevitably cut corners to get finished on schedule and try to finish under an already slender budget. It's a recipe for disaster, and it's only getting worse across the country.
Even before Catlin mentioned the first suicide that was my exact thought. I had a feeling this was about suicide. 😓
Amazing that you bring awareness to such important matters! Please keep doing it!👌
I’ve watched this video a few times and I’m so grateful for your compassion.
At this point, the people responsible for this structure cannot wash their hands of what’s happened. Did they make people commit suicide? Absolutely not.
But by wilfully refusing to take measures that save lives, if this is reopened and another person dies, I believe they have blood on their hands.
Suicide is so much more than a person intent on ending their life making a plan and going through with it. As someone who has attempted suicide 5 times, I can tell you that not one of these attempts was planned, and every single time I regretted my decision. I am so, so glad that I’m alive today and my heart breaks for every person who’s lost their life.
They know that this structure encourages suicide. They may not have known to begin with (although I find that hard to believe), but they sure as hell know now. Their attitudes are inexcusable.
There is nothing artistic about enabling people to end their lives. Their lack of empathy is sickening.
I worked in the mall in this area and was present, outside, on the day of one of the suicides. We always asked "Well are they going to add a barrier?" and were flabbergasted when it reopened time and time again with no physical changes to the structure. It's so disrespectful to anyone that had to endure seeing the body-cover up that took place after not to take any action. Additionally they put up these dystopian ads on their screens around the mall asking people to “stay” and seek help. Instead of barriers!
God, way to make the place warmer and more welcoming (sarcasm) :(
I'm so sorry to you and all who were affected.