This is an incredibly exhaustive review of the two main fin systems and the pluses and minuses of both. I am just ordering my new board so this is perfect timing for me. I am surprised that the board shaper didn't point this out to me but there you go. Very helpful and incredibly informative. Keep up the great reviews.
Yeah shapers probably have enough to think about and enough variables that people can mess with on their behalf :-) lol so dont want to go information overload.. unlike me :-) lmao Actually this review made me realise a few things and think about how futures might be better suited in some of their specs for some applications than FCS etc... That's been one cool thing about the boards I have made for friends not many shapers are realistically going to be able to make a full top down template up board for someone and still have time to make some money it's a seriously undervalued trade and art that I really respect since actually making some and again makes me realise how people like myself would focus in minute detail on the few numbers we understand and often there is a bigger picture you might have missed.. Always something to learn. Will try do something more detailed on the but things that will help people choose when I get time cheers
Lol neither did I mate 🤣🤣 I was a bit shocked when I stopped recording and it sad 26 odd minutes 🤣🤣 well done if you sticked with it without falling asleep 😛
Mate such a good review of the two systems! From your comments I’m kinda leaning toward the future’s, but boy it’s hard after you’ve accumulated boards and fins over a period of time from both camps! But again, thanks for bringing up things about the humble fin that I had no idea about! It’s weird that no doubt amongst board makers all this is well known and yet that information hasn’t found its way out to the general surging public. Keep up the good work!
Cheers mate, Yeah I hear you.. It’s good to have a few of your favourites in both either way aye. Inevitably there comes a point where that board you really want or a second hand board is only available in the system you don’t have 😊 lol. I still personally use FCS2 most.. I think for most people they will probably just go with the ones they have the most of or the most boards they have in that system or what boards are available in what systems.. I find more of the boards in shops locally are more likely to be FCS2 and that’s what I have gone with on my customs so that’s driven my choice in a big way.. Now using both again since I wanted to be able to install either system for my own builds good to see some futures again and they have a lot more designs than before. Cheers.
GO SURF yeah. Fair points. BTW. I have a few fin systems that I don’t think I’ll use again. Mainly thrusters cos I’m tending toward quads and twins. As fair as selling them on, are you aware of any particular market place that deals with fins? Sure you’ve got gumtree and stuff but I mean a dedicated place for fins? If there isn’t I reckon someone should maybe pull one together!
@@arfc152 Not sure buddy.. Over here in nz we have Trade Me and that does have a specific Fins category inside surfing so I just use that. Maybe one of the online stores where you are has a catogory? I think E Bay seperate them.. Not sure anyone would pull a specific e commerce site together specifically for fins other than that?
Hi mate, thanks for going in depth with your reviews ! Very informative. In regards to the lightbulb moment; are you suggesting Futures is more amenable to different templates due to the built in cant? Ive just got a sadhana shortboard groveller and considering going twin plus trailer (its got Futures boxes) whereas it's currently a thruster.
Cheers buddy. Yeah I believe the Futures way of doing it gives an advantage for converting between say thruster, twin, keel, twin and trailer etc as they can have the optimal cant built into the fins if you want say a 9 degree cant side fin box in fcs2 for a thruster then swapping to a twin you would still get 9 degrees where maybe 2 to 4 was more optional. Hard to say if most people would notice but from a scientific pint of view it makes sense.
Thanks for making this video so fast after my questions! So now I'm left wondering about cant angles: if an FCS II front thruster box has a cant angle of 9 degrees, and a Futures fin has a built-in can't of 6.5 degrees, does that mean that there is a 2.5 degree difference in cant between the 2 systems? I mean, if you had the same fin template, for instance, in FCS II and Futures, would it not behave completely differently? Or do shapers adjust for this in some way during the install? Cheers! And thanks again! Great video!!!
Cheers Owen. That’s a good question. I haven’t physically measured and compared any Futures fins but I could. I suspect the answer in general though is that they would generally have less cant than FCS and yes that scientifically would mean they behave differently though how much most riders would notice is hard to say. I actually don’t myself remember my Futures boards feeling massively different from the same fins in FCS boards but you would have to compare same board with fins in both systems to know. If you put a FCS keel fin in a standard 9 deg box vs a Futures I would say that should definitely feel different.. Weather or not say an Al Merrick template bumps his cant up from 6.5 to 8 or 9 in futures I’m not sure… Suspect not. There is also the fact that not every board would have an accurate cant in FCS2 bu the 9 tends to sit between 8 and 9 depending on the bottom contours when I have installed them. I tend to get them nice and flush in the bottom of the cut out and not try to force an angle onto them after that. I don’t think shapers in general would adjust angles far from the stock angle.. It’s actually not that easy to force it more than a degree or two as it wouldn’t sit nicely in the box anymore. If anything the fin designer might spec more cant in the fin for futures to achieve a feel that they want but again I would have to measure this. Given the stab in the dark video it was pretty clear that Jordy and Dane and Mick could see a clear difference in the cant in the boards fins… I must measure a few Futures but 100% there is a big difference between a keel fin and a thruster set for sure.
Great explanations. You brought up things I never would have considered, like the cant differences in the 2 systems. Random question on the Seaside. I like the Machado split keels but I have more trouble popping up with my back foot far enough back on the tail, e.g. feet too close together. A regular large quad set in that board feels easier to get my back foot correct. Did you feel that at all or am I crazy? I like the keels a lot and need to spend more time on them as they suit the Seaside well. Cheers!
Cheers Matt.. Well I found the Machado Keels to be inconsistent and unpredictable myself so that could well also be allot to do with foot position too as mine is pretty inconsistent. I found those fins sometimes drive others slip and just didn't know what they were going to do turn to turn sometimes. No such trouble at all with the split keels so yeah could be something in the fins.. The Machado rears have very little depth too so that would likely make them easy to break free or more sensitive to sliding out so could be something in it. Again no bother for me with the split keel so if you have some maybe have a go or stick a more normal rear quad in with the Machado fronts for a trial see if that helps.. Cheers.
@@lawson45uk Cheers for that. Have actually tried the Machado fronts and regular quad rears but on a crappy surf day so hard to tell! Will keep the experiments going! Thanks again for your great videos
Hi JP Thanks for the feedback. Simple answer is yes... lol Long answer is: Yes and no.. So what happens is the shaper marks a dot and a line on the board for each fins placement.. The Dot is the distance up from the tail to the trailing edge of the fin and the line goes from that dot forward at desired toe in angle for each fin. Old days the Glasser would place the trailing edge of the fin on the dot and the inside of the fin on the line and essentially glass it on in that spot.... So fast forward to now.. Both fin systems I believe work on the same principle. Shaper marks the dot and that is still the trailing edge of the fin after the fin is fitted to the fin box.... On FCS2 that dot is about 16mm behind the figure 8 box you see in the board but it's still where the trailing edge of the fin lands once clipped in. On Futures the box hole cuts out the dot but again it's still the trailing edge of the fin when the fin is fitted.. Hope that makes sense. This rule is good for most standard sized thrusters and quad rears but goes out of the window when you get to Keels. Keels end up going further back than the shapers dot i.e. trail further behind both dot and box than other fins. This is actually a good thing as it gets them a little further back. Really a twin fin the back of the fin should be a little further back than the back of any thruster fin... On dedicated twins fin boards the shapers dot and the box and the trailing edge of the fin should all be further back towards the tail and also a little futher from the rail.. Fin placement is important for board to ride as desired. Hope that helps. Good le fcs box fitting or futures box fitting there will be videos of how its done that will make more sense. Cheers.
Sorry not sure I understand what you mean? If you mean strength I think there both pretty good. The old FCS 1 the boxes could pull out and the fin tabs could snap. Both are well connected to the board now as long as they are reinforced and glassed in as they are supposed to be as per the instalation instructions. Worst chance of failure is probably them not being fitted correctly when the board is made I bet.. FCS2 also can pop out and you loose a fin sometimes. I screw them as well for extra reasurance. Cheers.
Hey buddy. I'm pretty detailed and OCD and understand where your logic is going but your getting pretty far into the weeds of detail if your considering fin box weight and especially volume. Weight each systems box is fairly close to each other so if your gonna have boxes you gotta carry one of the two systems weight. In most cases the fins will probably be heavier than the boxes anyways. I haven't actually weighed any and don't have any around anymore sorry so can't help with that. As for Volume please correct me if my logic is wrong but I think that's kinda irrelevant as the volume (space) that you rout out for the fin box is replaced by the same volume as said fin box so the only real factor is the weight and as mentioned I didn't think there was a big difference. Good question though and I get where your thinking from so hope that was some help.
I'm sure if you delved into it with a full on exercise you could calculate the foam routed out and the box weight added back in etc and come up with a the odd gram here and there to think about if you really wanted to but yeah seems pretty full on even by my standards of OCD ;-) Cheers
@@lawson45uk I was just curious because here in Cali/Hawaii the Liters written on the board (e.g. 30L) are before adding in the fin boxes. And when you add the fin boxes in, you're actually removing volume and adding weight. I've always used FCS since I was a little keiki, I tried a board with 5 Futures boxes and it felt heavy. :)
lol Mint Glass on be fantastic if you dont travel and know the fins you like. I love an AM large in most boards so would suit me but never had glass ons unfortunately.
This is an incredibly exhaustive review of the two main fin systems and the pluses and minuses of both. I am just ordering my new board so this is perfect timing for me. I am surprised that the board shaper didn't point this out to me but there you go. Very helpful and incredibly informative. Keep up the great reviews.
Yeah shapers probably have enough to think about and enough variables that people can mess with on their behalf :-) lol so dont want to go information overload.. unlike me :-) lmao Actually this review made me realise a few things and think about how futures might be better suited in some of their specs for some applications than FCS etc... That's been one cool thing about the boards I have made for friends not many shapers are realistically going to be able to make a full top down template up board for someone and still have time to make some money it's a seriously undervalued trade and art that I really respect since actually making some and again makes me realise how people like myself would focus in minute detail on the few numbers we understand and often there is a bigger picture you might have missed.. Always something to learn. Will try do something more detailed on the but things that will help people choose when I get time cheers
I didn't know you could talk that long about Futures vs FCS fins systems. Thanks for the review, very informative! Cheers.
Lol neither did I mate 🤣🤣 I was a bit shocked when I stopped recording and it sad 26 odd minutes 🤣🤣 well done if you sticked with it without falling asleep 😛
Awesome comprehensive vid! Thanks man 🤙
Sweet as cheers mate
Mate such a good review of the two systems! From your comments I’m kinda leaning toward the future’s, but boy it’s hard after you’ve accumulated boards and fins over a period of time from both camps!
But again, thanks for bringing up things about the humble fin that I had no idea about! It’s weird that no doubt amongst board makers all this is well known and yet that information hasn’t found its way out to the general surging public.
Keep up the good work!
Cheers mate, Yeah I hear you.. It’s good to have a few of your favourites in both either way aye. Inevitably there comes a point where that board you really want or a second hand board is only available in the system you don’t have 😊 lol. I still personally use FCS2 most.. I think for most people they will probably just go with the ones they have the most of or the most boards they have in that system or what boards are available in what systems.. I find more of the boards in shops locally are more likely to be FCS2 and that’s what I have gone with on my customs so that’s driven my choice in a big way.. Now using both again since I wanted to be able to install either system for my own builds good to see some futures again and they have a lot more designs than before. Cheers.
GO SURF yeah. Fair points. BTW. I have a few fin systems that I don’t think I’ll use again. Mainly thrusters cos I’m tending toward quads and twins.
As fair as selling them on, are you aware of any particular market place that deals with fins? Sure you’ve got gumtree and stuff but I mean a dedicated place for fins?
If there isn’t I reckon someone should maybe pull one together!
@@arfc152 Not sure buddy.. Over here in nz we have Trade Me and that does have a specific Fins category inside surfing so I just use that. Maybe one of the online stores where you are has a catogory? I think E Bay seperate them.. Not sure anyone would pull a specific e commerce site together specifically for fins other than that?
Hi mate, thanks for going in depth with your reviews ! Very informative. In regards to the lightbulb moment; are you suggesting Futures is more amenable to different templates due to the built in cant? Ive just got a sadhana shortboard groveller and considering going twin plus trailer (its got Futures boxes) whereas it's currently a thruster.
Cheers buddy. Yeah I believe the Futures way of doing it gives an advantage for converting between say thruster, twin, keel, twin and trailer etc as they can have the optimal cant built into the fins if you want say a 9 degree cant side fin box in fcs2 for a thruster then swapping to a twin you would still get 9 degrees where maybe 2 to 4 was more optional. Hard to say if most people would notice but from a scientific pint of view it makes sense.
Thanks for making this video so fast after my questions! So now I'm left wondering about cant angles: if an FCS II front thruster box has a cant angle of 9 degrees, and a Futures fin has a built-in can't of 6.5 degrees, does that mean that there is a 2.5 degree difference in cant between the 2 systems? I mean, if you had the same fin template, for instance, in FCS II and Futures, would it not behave completely differently? Or do shapers adjust for this in some way during the install? Cheers! And thanks again! Great video!!!
Cheers Owen. That’s a good question. I haven’t physically measured and compared any Futures fins but I could. I suspect the answer in general though is that they would generally have less cant than FCS and yes that scientifically would mean they behave differently though how much most riders would notice is hard to say. I actually don’t myself remember my Futures boards feeling massively different from the same fins in FCS boards but you would have to compare same board with fins in both systems to know. If you put a FCS keel fin in a standard 9 deg box vs a Futures I would say that should definitely feel different.. Weather or not say an Al Merrick template bumps his cant up from 6.5 to 8 or 9 in futures I’m not sure… Suspect not. There is also the fact that not every board would have an accurate cant in FCS2 bu the 9 tends to sit between 8 and 9 depending on the bottom contours when I have installed them. I tend to get them nice and flush in the bottom of the cut out and not try to force an angle onto them after that. I don’t think shapers in general would adjust angles far from the stock angle.. It’s actually not that easy to force it more than a degree or two as it wouldn’t sit nicely in the box anymore. If anything the fin designer might spec more cant in the fin for futures to achieve a feel that they want but again I would have to measure this. Given the stab in the dark video it was pretty clear that Jordy and Dane and Mick could see a clear difference in the cant in the boards fins… I must measure a few Futures but 100% there is a big difference between a keel fin and a thruster set for sure.
Great explanations. You brought up things I never would have considered, like the cant differences in the 2 systems. Random question on the Seaside. I like the Machado split keels but I have more trouble popping up with my back foot far enough back on the tail, e.g. feet too close together. A regular large quad set in that board feels easier to get my back foot correct. Did you feel that at all or am I crazy? I like the keels a lot and need to spend more time on them as they suit the Seaside well. Cheers!
Cheers Matt.. Well I found the Machado Keels to be inconsistent and unpredictable myself so that could well also be allot to do with foot position too as mine is pretty inconsistent. I found those fins sometimes drive others slip and just didn't know what they were going to do turn to turn sometimes. No such trouble at all with the split keels so yeah could be something in the fins.. The Machado rears have very little depth too so that would likely make them easy to break free or more sensitive to sliding out so could be something in it. Again no bother for me with the split keel so if you have some maybe have a go or stick a more normal rear quad in with the Machado fronts for a trial see if that helps.. Cheers.
@@lawson45uk Cheers for that. Have actually tried the Machado fronts and regular quad rears but on a crappy surf day so hard to tell! Will keep the experiments going! Thanks again for your great videos
Great review. Do FCS fins sit back more than Future fins when using the same exact fins?
Hi JP Thanks for the feedback. Simple answer is yes... lol Long answer is:
Yes and no.. So what happens is the shaper marks a dot and a line on the board for each fins placement.. The Dot is the distance up from the tail to the trailing edge of the fin and the line goes from that dot forward at desired toe in angle for each fin. Old days the Glasser would place the trailing edge of the fin on the dot and the inside of the fin on the line and essentially glass it on in that spot....
So fast forward to now.. Both fin systems I believe work on the same principle. Shaper marks the dot and that is still the trailing edge of the fin after the fin is fitted to the fin box.... On FCS2 that dot is about 16mm behind the figure 8 box you see in the board but it's still where the trailing edge of the fin lands once clipped in. On Futures the box hole cuts out the dot but again it's still the trailing edge of the fin when the fin is fitted.. Hope that makes sense. This rule is good for most standard sized thrusters and quad rears but goes out of the window when you get to Keels. Keels end up going further back than the shapers dot i.e. trail further behind both dot and box than other fins. This is actually a good thing as it gets them a little further back. Really a twin fin the back of the fin should be a little further back than the back of any thruster fin... On dedicated twins fin boards the shapers dot and the box and the trailing edge of the fin should all be further back towards the tail and also a little futher from the rail.. Fin placement is important for board to ride as desired.
Hope that helps.
Good le fcs box fitting or futures box fitting there will be videos of how its done that will make more sense.
Cheers.
the fin system what the call FCS was designed by brian whitty from narrabeen australia,,,he sold it to fcs,,,,it was primary done for travel ,,,
First comment haha, good job.
:-) lol
Hello. Which is more resistente?
Sorry not sure I understand what you mean? If you mean strength I think there both pretty good. The old FCS 1 the boxes could pull out and the fin tabs could snap. Both are well connected to the board now as long as they are reinforced and glassed in as they are supposed to be as per the instalation instructions. Worst chance of failure is probably them not being fitted correctly when the board is made I bet.. FCS2 also can pop out and you loose a fin sometimes. I screw them as well for extra reasurance. Cheers.
What is the volume in liters of a Futures fin box vs. an FCS fin box? Weight?
Hey buddy. I'm pretty detailed and OCD and understand where your logic is going but your getting pretty far into the weeds of detail if your considering fin box weight and especially volume. Weight each systems box is fairly close to each other so if your gonna have boxes you gotta carry one of the two systems weight. In most cases the fins will probably be heavier than the boxes anyways. I haven't actually weighed any and don't have any around anymore sorry so can't help with that. As for Volume please correct me if my logic is wrong but I think that's kinda irrelevant as the volume (space) that you rout out for the fin box is replaced by the same volume as said fin box so the only real factor is the weight and as mentioned I didn't think there was a big difference. Good question though and I get where your thinking from so hope that was some help.
I'm sure if you delved into it with a full on exercise you could calculate the foam routed out and the box weight added back in etc and come up with a the odd gram here and there to think about if you really wanted to but yeah seems pretty full on even by my standards of OCD ;-) Cheers
@@lawson45uk I was just curious because here in Cali/Hawaii the Liters written on the board (e.g. 30L) are before adding in the fin boxes. And when you add the fin boxes in, you're actually removing volume and adding weight. I've always used FCS since I was a little keiki, I tried a board with 5 Futures boxes and it felt heavy. :)
Channel islands offers glassed fins in 2022
lol Mint Glass on be fantastic if you dont travel and know the fins you like. I love an AM large in most boards so would suit me but never had glass ons unfortunately.