WTF is going on with the A350?
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- čas přidán 9. 12. 2021
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#A350 #Qatar #Airbus - Hry
The 350 paint may be experiencing galvanic corrosion.
The 787 skin surface uses 1 ply fiberglass prepreg, grade 10 adhesive, and then expanded copper foil.
I suspect the A350 did not include a fiberglass isolation ply.
The paints do contain metals. The metals may resist the adjoining copper matrix.
My experience is 14 years of 787 since 2002. I was part of the Development Team.
Jean-Marc are you familiar with why the copper foil is there? I presume it is to do with heat dispersion.
@Gnrnrvids the purpose of the copper mesh is to absorb and dissipate lightning strikes
@@Gnrnrvids even in the video that is disclosed, basically to "create a Faraday's cage" against lighting strikes.
That is interesting idea that it would be down to galvanic corrosion. But if that is the case, could we just add a base layer without metals to protect against that? Surely someone can develope a base layer that does not include any metals and should isolate enough? But would that then weight too much?
@@SampoSaarela You cannot. The fiberglass acts as an isolation barrier between the Is metals and the copper. Most of the paints have metal flakes in them
Looks like you're right. This could end as a terrible mesh!
lmao
lol
@@cobyexplanes why do you have my name and why does michael oreilly have my cousins name
@@cobyexplanes coby there is another coby
Coby Explanes? More like Coby Excellent
Ayyy what’s up MACI
My guy has 122k subs but still no verification
WOW
I see what you did there 😉
@@UnknownSlayer_95 yea how is that possible
Great job describing the A350 issues without any implied bias inflected in your voice.
Excellent presentation - good use of airline logos in the graphics.
The fastest solution to this is for Airbus to somehow obtain data on the 787, at least their copper mesh designs and compare to theirs to find out what's wrong with theirs and apply a fix or if it's possible, recall all planes for a rebuild by the mesh removal and replacement.
The difference between the A350 and the 787 is that the mesh in the 787 is interwoven into the top layer of CFRP, and not just sitting on top of it. It is also a much finer mesh and is not fused at joints like the expanded metal looking mesh in the A350.
The 787 and 350 are constructed much differently. The 787 uses carbon barrels where the the 350 has carbon panels. They also use different materials, so that wouldn't really help much.
So basically you're asking Airbus to hack into Boeing to steal data like the Chinese did to both when making their CR929?
@@fighter5583 sure, why not? What's a little industrial espionage? :-)
I've got a feeling Boeing isn't gonna want to disclose that sort of information
Really troubling. I hope they confirm there are no related safety issues ASAP.
Hi Coby. I just do not know why you are not more popular. Your videos are so well researched and intelligent. Wishing you all the best.
I appreciate that!
This video leaves out fairly important points. The problems Lufthansa and Finnair had were back in 2016 and they seem to have solved them quietly. The problem at the wing on the 13 aircrafts that need adjustments is not the same as qatar is complaining about according to airbus. Also Airbus just started legal actions against qatar because of reputation damage. Airbus states that they offered a solution to qatar and they declined.
Plural of "aircraft" is "aircraft" NOT "aircrafts" .
@@buckfaststradler4629 hey mr. grammar police did you get him to sign the citation you just issued?
@@davidcole333 No need for a full stop after "mr" - which by the way, should have been "Mr".
I think there is a huge mismanagement of information being conveyed by Qatar, because at this point it’s more about getting everyone on it for attention to get a compensation than anything else…
@@buckfaststradler4629 >Plural of "aircraft" is "aircraft" NOT "aircrafts" .
Plural of aircraft is not aircrafts? (not a native speaker)
i have been reading, and listening about this issue for ling time, but your videos has more in depth info. loved it.
Interesting issues they're experiencing, and I hope they find quick and easy solutions. Would you consider making more technical content like this? I would also love videos about future developments like maybe electric or hydrogen fuels. Thanks!
Thank you for taking the time to gather all of the authentic sources acknowledging and identifying the true problem causing it. Remember that Concorde pilots did play with this thermal expansion phenomenon with their plane’s supersonic speed. New modern airframe makers will have to dig deeper in their engineering magic to enhance jets’ skins beyond just the paint on the surface. Back to the drawing boards means having a closer look at how some birds maintain their temperatures from flying at high altitudes and dive to catch their preys on the ground, then do it again. That’s a lot of hydraulic to regulate a plane and keep it light.
One nice point on this format: wherever it is that you're recording the sound is much better!
EASA may not be going along with Qatar Airways here, but it did just issue a check on the copper mesh a few days ago. I wonder if one is in relation to the other and it hasn't been connected yet? Oh and Delta is also reporting the paint issue now, so the FAA will be involved here soon too.
been working to fix the audio...hasnt been easy but glad it makes a difference
Thank you for the clear and concise information you just relayed to me here! Other comments are so biased so I thank you for giving helpful information rather than comments being diminishing to everyone contributing. Anyway, thanks again!
Your narration is very good, easy to listen to and really enjoyable. I have subscribed!
More please
I know delta uses 2 a350’s between Atlanta and Shanghai not arid climates therefore it could be the bonding issue between fiberglass on the 787 vs no fiberglass on the a350 aka weight for range as a selling point but at the possible cost of safety over airframe lifetime.
Thank you once again and yes keep the stories coming....much appreciated! Interesting story and perhaps some follow ups on this particular one?
Great video. I very much enjoy all of the videos that you create. Keep up the great work.
Great job! Your explanation, research and method of presenting content is precise, to the point and no nonsense that keeps viewers interested to the end!
What’s nice is you don’t over emphasize the need to subscribe, hit the bell, etc etc etc that turns off viewers. Say it once quickly and back to content, DONT BEG! How you present the option to buy apparel is good to, short and sweet while showing 2-3 of the better designs! That will be enough for viewers to check it out including female version
for many months since the paint problem surface, this video is the first quality video I seen to discuss the problem. thanks
I like all the formats of your videos, keep up the good work.
If the lightning protection has lifted it's a huge problem. It can not be simply glued back, unless it is attached to the entire original protection mesh it would cause huge heat spots if there were a lightning strike in the affected areas.
A big problem.
Great video, and great format, please continue these on a regular basis! I’m a professional pilot and I found this very interesting and well done.
Awesome. Well explained... Thanks for a great video. I love this format! Stay safe and have a great year ahead! 😘👌💪❤️
Great Stuff as always Coby! Been a sub since the first few videos, and again have to say, Of all the aviation channels on CZcams, Yours takes the cake!, Can't wait to check out the merch! :D
Much appreciated!
Great Video, Thanks and I would like to see more like this, very informative.
All this time I've always thought that Al Baker was just trying to strongarm Airbus into delaying their A350 deliveries without financial penalties. Looks like there really was more to the story.
That was a theory I heard, but it's clear it no longer applies
That's what happens when people have bias towards other people
Rule #1: The customer is always right.
Rule #2: If the customer is ever wrong, refer to rule #1.
AIRBUS is going to become LANDBUS for breaking those rules.
@@ralph411 p
@@mohammadzohorul8887 at the time it was a fair assumption to make because:
1) Al Baker as a CEO has had a history of let's say 'unorthodox' negotiation tactics in behalf of his airline
2) During the time that he squealed about the paint issues, it was weird because it seemed that no one else in the industry had experienced it. It was only Qatar that had paint issues despite not being the only one to operate in primarily desert environments.
3) Initial investigations at the time were inconclusive and remained inconclusive for quite a long time. It was only the Qatari regulators that exercised restrictions against the aircraft type.
Now, these points are not to say that I continue to believe that Al Baker was still just dramatic. With the NEW information that is available today, I admit that I was wrong about my initial assumptions. However, what I will stand against is any insinuation that my original conclusion was due to bias against him. What do I have to gain for being biased against him? These are just my armchair observations for that time based on AVAILABLE INFORMATION DURING THAT TIME.
References:
[1] finance.yahoo.com/news/qatar-airways-says-airbus-spat-135544111.html?guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAANL7lOggUd3xanrUvOsXm86UZ-9s8G-mnWYEgRNT0BT0UZwwghERVJ1ygNUNlk4wksPB0-sOp_xUrCAmqIQB7Ihm6mZTQnfLBW6i3FUQAmdGomwbh8IwezmThlnuojzpwCd7P9t0KClu7ft-iySc7X9XVN6KwM_t8cN3wNrA5Eik
[2] Dandekar, A. M. (2017). Finite Element Analysis of Composite Aircraft Fuselage Frame (Doctoral dissertation).
[3] Ivannikov, S. I., Vahterova, Y. A., Utkin, Y. A., & Sun, Y. (2021). Calculation of strength, rigidity, and stability of the aircraft fuselage frame made of composite materials. INCAS Bulletin, 13, 77-86.
Like both formats Coby . . . a mix would keep things fresh.
Coby thank you for this video. I learned something new about the Airbus A350. “The more you know!” You rock!
Thanks ◡̈
Though perhaps not "contributing" in this instance, it is worth remembering the "pressure vessel" in all pressurized aircraft expands slightly during a normal "flight cycle". I know the expansion rates of composites are different than aluminum, but they still expand.
Excellent format....KEEP WALKING
I like this format. Very good!
This is High Quality Content well done Coby!!
I really like this format. Thanks.
Love your videos no matter the format. Keep it up my dude.
Sounds like they tried to pass this off as just a paint issue but looks like it goes much deeper maybe the resin has been mixed to the wrong ratio for the extreme conditions & is deteriorating prematurely.
Nope
@@jean-marcmorassutti8174
Yep.
@@jean-marcmorassutti8174 Ok boomer.
Great reviews, enjoyable analysis as well. Thanks!
Give me a 777x any day of the week, it's my favorite jet.
I do like the front window of the A-350.
My God, that is what I was wondering all these times why 380 is being phased out.
After Concord and 747 380 is a marvel of sort in the aviation history. Thank you Coby...🌹🌹🌹
Great video. Very informative and great production value 👌. Just have to watch external banging noises and sounds around the mic
Once again a highly informative video, thank you for posting.
Thanks for watching!
There are also paint issues with the 787. There are issues on composite planes with paint on both types
yep. loving this easy quick to consume informative format. :)
Thanks for some details about this paint issue.
Hey Coby, I have a video idea for you. Maybe you could start doing videos on Airlines (explaining there history and future). You could make it a series. If you do decide to do that, I would personally recommend starting with WestJet, they have a fascinating and relatively short (25 years) time of operations. Just a suggestion for future video ideas.
also Aircrafts
noted ◡̈
Excellent recap! May I suggest getting a good shock mount to to your mic? Would make the audio quality becomes consistent without handling / bump noises.
Boeing 787 also has severe ssues with paint on the upper wing skins faling off. As I see several pictures of the A350 damages, it is the expanded copperfoil failing, not the paint itself.Airbus has a severe issue
"Boeing 787 also has severe ssues with paint on the upper wing skins faling off." I have actually seen that, the wing was covered with small speed tape patch as temporary repair, to protect the composite from UV radiation I guess.
My airline has several of these issues on our 787-8s and warranty paint rework had to have been done
At least you won’t find meth needles and beer bottles inside Airbus aircraft compartments upon delivery.
Yep, Air New Zealand shortly after reported similar issues just before Christmas and Simply Flying did a video on it just two days ago.
@@Anolaana For me it happen three years ago. I wonder if it is an inherent problem of composite frame.
8:05. Nice ode to the MD-88 flight deck 😎👍🏼
I like the intro when you say “Let me explain
Awesome informative video, great job
We need teaching videos like this!
The A350: A state of the art plane with the highest range and efficiency.
The Paint: I'm about to end this man's whole career.
787:"my time has come"
@@sergiolaurencio7534 Eh, the 787 certainly has is own set of unique challenges.
Might as well as go back to an airplane design that doesn't have paint peeling, or use different metals/paints that have similar/reduced expansion rate differences. Also, why can't airplanes use experimental aluminum-titanium alloys instead of carbon fibers? I enjoy engineering and science subjects, and find this A350 problem fascinating, and hope that a solution is found quickly.
@@jahredt not the one already flying
@@jahredt is the ones who are in production
Great Cody, I would like to see more!
I really like these keep ‘em up
In the picture it looks as if the mesh is pulling away from the carbon fiber, meaning it could be the cleaning method they are using or the resin not adhering to the copper mesh. Also noticed it was around a static wick. Could that have something to do with it?
Yeah I agree because here where I live when water seeps through because the resin layer was probably not ratioed properly, it seems like the paint is peeling from the inside… it may be the same problem or at least similar?
@@aspiringcaptain
I say scrap all of them and start over
Sorry Airbus fans.....
@@alhanes5803 Scrap all the planes? Do you know how much that would cost? Sorry Airbus fans what are you even trying to insinuate? This isn’t a matter of being sad over this but wether a safe solution can be found without a big problem happening. The A350 is an aircraft that is airworthy and was engineered to fly using alternative resources and material, it is not a 100% bet that everything will work perfectly. Yes taking the blueprints back to the table is an option, scraping the whole thing is *not an option*
As an aside, there are often references to a flight operating "direct:" between cities. What they meant was :"nonstop". "Direct" means the same aircraft for the journey but with one or more stops. Nonstop means just, that.
Definitely like both ways you do your videos
This guy is so underrated he deserves millions of subscribers.
Auto body painter here. We can run into a similar issue with raw plastic bumpers with the different rates of paint and composite expansion but the way around it is to use a flex additive. Not sure if airbus uses one in their paint. Another possibility as far as adhesion issues go is that the composite composition they used could be outgassing. We use a special anti static cleaner and a sprayable adhesion promoter before we paint that prevents that. Otherwise the paint will begin to bubble and peel within a few months. Even if the surface was abraded. The 787’s different composition might be why it’s unaffected.
The finishes on these are not like automotive paints. They are more if an epoxy. They are actually quite rubbery after curing. These products are very rigorously engineered to ensure off gassing is not an issue when applied according to the manufacturers instructions, which are extremely detailed in regards to surface preparation, application and overcoat times for varying environmental conditions.
While it is possible that someone at airbus disregarded these instructions, I don't believe it is very likely.
This comment section is generally much more nuanced and informed than others I've seen on the topic where everybody has stronger opinions than they have knowledge. Way to go Coby, you have a smart audience
You're a super cool guy. I especially appreciate your clear enunciation and, in comparison with other CZcams presenters, a moderately paced speaking style.
Very interesting & informative, thanks.🙂
Glad you enjoyed it!
Very well explained buddy ty.
Great video!
Judging from the pics in the Reuters story the paint issue that Qatar and other airlines have reported is predominantly seen on and around the static dischargers, commonly known as static wicks or static discharge wicks on the A350 winglets. You can see why EASA therefore conclude that this is not a structural issue - it is at the very extremity of the wing and not evidenced anywhere on the main part of the fuselage. The winglets flex much more in normal operations so this paint issue is nothing to do with hot and cold expansion and contraction flight cycles. That theory is a red herring. They simply need to develop some kind of rubberised paint with elastic properties for the winglet / static wick portions of the plane.
@Paul Gilpin You have just made me realise what may be happening. If all these issues are located at the static discharge wicks, then it may be lightning damage due to local heating and explosive expansion of water in the adhesive and paint that has been absorbed from the ambient environment. There would be a frequent & high current flux around these discharge wicks.
you should search for the videos showing the whole top of the aircraft with this damage.
Etihad had the same issue as well, they haven't even entered service yet.!!!. so much for the thermal expansion theory!!
Add Delta.
It has been on storage for 2 years.
@@phillipparrish5577 really they have experienced the same problem? Mind linking an article?
Thermal expansion is a potential cause to the issue. Don't act like an expert when you clearly aren't, Airbus has to consider all potential causes to the issue
@@aspiringcaptain czcams.com/video/WBjtU6MkK4o/video.html And don't act informed when you're clearly not and don't waste others' time begging them to do your research. And you will find later articles concerning A-350 wings/lightning protection.
Coby is a good narrator.
Great video! Keep it up please :)
Boeing removed wire mesh from 787 in most areas to save money. They didn't think it was necessary for lightning protection
I'm going to give you a 10
Thumbs up good work and content,I was an A&P mech,paint ,coatings, composites,adhesion, it all boils down to preparing the surfaces bad prep bad paint, I would like you to look at or ask about the chemical adhesion between the aircraft panels the paints and their bonding agents vs. Aircrafts in-flight flexing and the super high low temperatures, mainly how many cycles before the first cracks appear in the paint.
Excellent comments Coby and I love the thorough and passionate research of your content. I've heard from friends that Al Baker is a nightmare to deal with. At the end of the day, he is writing the checks for these 350s and played a key role in helping to launch this aircraft. I think that he does deserve an explanation as a customer and he probably feels that his legacy may have been compromised now that other carriers are exhibiting similar issues.
Your videos are good no matter the format
This was a suggested video. Was a subscriber a while back. This format is terrific, as was the video. Resubscribing.
thanks for coming back ◡̈
Keep this format- it so much better.
The primer that is being used is not adhering to the copper mesh. Qatar should try the primer and paint used on the 787.
Very informative
The mesh shouldn't be a problem as, even though it is on the outside, it has a layer of plastic from the pre-preg that is used. They have other composite aircraft so I don't understand why this particular paint is causing issues. Just change the paint spec.
I doubt the thermal expansion theorie, because the fuselage expands and contracts every time the plane cabine is pressurized and depressurized.
Airbus already offered them a free repair/repaint of the ~15 airframes that had this issues(after that ~15 airframes Airbus improved the production process by themselves) yet they didn't wanted this to happen. IMO it seems to be a negative campaign to get more leverage in negotiations...
They are now up to 21 aircraft grounded because of it and more will follow as checks are done. Its not isolated to the older aircraft
They switched.
planes that land in extreme hot areas that come in from cold high altitudes with areas of two dissimilar materials probably suffer greater expansion strain than in other cooler climes. still it must not allow for cracks. will be solved.
Thanks for this explanation. I didn't even know this was happening, silly me... 🤦♂️
Thanks Mate 👍
78.7k subs!!
!!!
Love all videos u do
It is not a paint problem but it is a structural problem with the composite structure under the paint.
keep making these awsome videos
Boeing went through a hard time,now airbus is gonna get taste of that
In 2021, no one can scape( and coming 2022)
"went " lol They're still in the shit storm. Now with the 787 and 777X.
Atleast the A350 haven't crashed yet like the 737 max. 2 times actually.
airbus is not gonna let it happen. i am sure it won t get big problems as boeing
Awesome !!!!)))) Keep up please !
Wait no, that hanger at the beginning was fucking awesome.
More please
Fascinating! Truly!
I never thought Airbus will compromise on safety it's sad to see them not accepting their mistake
Nightmare scenario for the airlines:
Everything is flexible to a certain degree. Flexibility can be reduced if something is not flexed regularly.
I have no idea if it has been considered, but assume that it is possible - how many of the affected aircraft have spent time in storage etc.as a result of the pandemic? Should this turn out to be a significant factor, could it be argued that the aircraft has been operated in a way which was never anticipated and any liability on the part of the manufacturer be nothing more than a goodwill gesture? Unless of course the 'grounding' occurred pre-delivery - a possible factor as to why some new aircraft have been affected?
Before anyone just shoots the idea down, I am not suggesting that this a even a possible reason, just wondering if it has been considered and eliminated (I come from a testing background where considering the improbable or even apparently ridiculous was part of the process, and occasionally it was there that the problem was found).
As for why some aircraft are affected and some are not, it is rare for every item to fail at exactly the same point - there is usually a range. It is possible that only some of the aircraft have been pushed into this range, and those are the ones which have failed. It is quite possible that the 787s have the same potential for this issue, just that none of those aircraft have been pushed past the point of no return.
Again speaking from experience as a tester, problems can, and often do have multiple issues. The danger is where you find something which appears to be the cause, and the problem can be explained away by it. As a result, further testing, evaluation and,/or analysis is abandoned and the full reasons are not discovered until there is another failure.
Love it, thanks
Dig the format 🌍🌎🌏
What happens to composite aircraft structures when they are scrapped ?
You're a befter source on this A350 topic than
AIRBUS "Hush-Hush" INDUSTRIES.
Great. And Thank You.
The corrosion seems to be around the static dischargers. Boeing has lots of proprietary processes around electrical bond and ground, seal and paint application. Any of these could be a factor.
Good explanation
Another top notch, informative exposition. Keep tackling breaking news, you know your stuff and can explain it like few can! Love your work and appreciate the effort.
I guess all jet manufacturers have their own little headache 🤕 😆
The CTE mismatch does seem a bit odd since you can do accelerated thermal testing with samples, and the CTE should be well characterized and understood. One would think this could have been discovered during temperature cycling and life testing. The paint flaking could be due to delamination of the mesh since its CTE and other properties are quite different than the composite laminates. This would be even more of a concern if there is water ingress as it can seep behind and deteriorate the mesh and cause even more issues that are not visible. Edit: Thinking about the water and moisture, that could be the missing ingredient as capillary action could allow it in if the mesh starts separating from the composite at joints in the airframe. This would then lead to freeze/thaw cycles and corrosion that would cause these types of issues.
I’d like to know what paint and primer is used ? Also the preparation protocol