Why Iceman Being Gay Kind of Works!
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- čas přidán 5. 04. 2018
- Iceman coming out as gay has been another punching bag for people who hate "SJW Marvel", but here's why I think it's not so bad.
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Alejandro Arredondo, Tyler Kowalchuk, Leonardo, Bonnie Davies, Ashley Donson, David Flores, Yosh Flores, S.J.R., Dylan Blass-Svedvik, Colton Gebben, Sondre Hille-Krumsvik, Andrew Shaffer, Vydal
Tags: #XMen #Iceman #LGBT - Zábava
![Pre-Disney Big Hero 6 Was Weird [Marvel]](/img/n.gif)
Wtf she just outed him by looking through his mind. that’s messed up
Ikr
Do they call her out on that?
@@santiagodiaz3358 nope never
Not just that but she tries to force him into a conversation he wasn't ready for and when that didn't work she forced that conversation on him
@@VannsTHeir that sucks
"Hello, and welcome to Bobby Drake, where I talk about Iceman and my name is Drake" was far more delightful than I was prepared for
Holy shit I didn't actually even catch that
Neither did i. ^_^
Why isn't bobby named ice dragon or something like that? I mean doesn't drake mean dragon?
Comic Drake does emit an air of gayness. That's okay, Drake... I mean Bobby.
The biggest problem was the initial clumsiness of his outing... Having Jean Grey be the one to out Bobby is a huge invasion of privacy at best and forever casts a shadow of doubt over this situation given Jean's powers at worst...
One of the worst ways to come out is by someone forcing you out. For a lot of people, it actually sets them back and they become even more closed off from others.
What it should’ve been is like a weird look, and then Jean catching Bobby looking at Angel. Just keeping it subtle until a big coming out issue in front of the X-men. The one who should’ve been forced out is Modern Bobby by his younger self.
I would've been fine if it was young Bobby because he's from a different reality but both 🙅
I think that's were they messed up they should've kept older Bobby the same for the older fans and young Bobby gay for the younger and newer fans
Argenize1 He’s not from a different reality, he’s from the past.
lewaproductions nope
Different reality they tried sending them back to the past but couldn't since they're from a alternate reality
looks like Jean is pretty bad at breaking the ice.
I'll see myself out...
You do that
In going to have a celebration that this is cannon
Then join you
Hehshajahahah
Yeeeeeeeees
My only problem with it is how it was established. Jean should’ve just read Young Bobby’s mind, and she gave him a look. Then later she catches him looking at Angel or something and that’s when he tells her, and it’s a secret.
Then there’s an issue where Young Bobby comes out in front of the whole X-men team, forcing Modern Bobby out of the closet. Giving us the happy gay and the resentful gay, and them reconciling later.
I personally disliked it because he was a known womanizer
@@jayku1624 watch the video idiot
You know it's funny that Family Guy actually predicted that he was gay
They really pulled a simpsons
wait when did they do that??
First funny thing Family Guy has done in a long time
@@exquisitecorpse__ Lmao
They also predicted Caitlin Jenner (like three times) they're really good at outing people.
Well regardless if people support homosexuality or not, they really shouldn't give this hero the *cold* shoulder.
Nice one ;)
But his solo sucked, was not Bobby.
wouldnt giving him the warm shoulder hurt him too?
Well played.
chill but do you know what would be awesome if it turned out it was a scroll and the real iceman was on the scroll home planet and he escaped and had to fight the impersonator
Damnit...
Being bi myself I felt anoyed at how dismissive Jean was about the possibility that Bobby could be bisexual. like "that doesn't exist!" which is something we hear IRL both inside and outside the community.
The disbelief of bi people is so bazaar to me. It's like people who don't believe in global warming.
I get that but i think the point of that panel is that she already knew that bobby was denying it
my only problem with bisexuals is i feel like 85 percent of bi men want women or (prefer them) and the rest being a minority of bi men want men while a minuscule wants both if your gonna be with women only don't say your bi say your questioning the q is in the lgbtq for a reason it makes me feel like straight men claim to have attractions to guys for the views and it pisses me off now if 85 percent of yall liked both genders unbiasly id have no problem but in my oppinion thats my problem with bi people!!!!!!
*is a bisexual that doesn't believe in global warming... least not as they preach it*
to make a distinction most people that brand themselves "bi" are not bi for my experience.
it is not about bi not existing it is about the vast majority of bi not being actually bi.
As a gay man - Holy cow. I don’t think I’ve ever heard a straight person so eloquently explain the gay experience. Clumsy and lazy storytelling about outing, biphobia from within the LGBT community, complete absence of judgement for those within and without the gay perspective. Love for the comics and respect for LGBT without pandering at all. You have my respect. Nicely done 👍🏼
Ikr! Kudos to you Drake, you did your hw
@Holy_Cow *bows to the holiest cow*
yes, as a gay man, that's what I like about Drake! 😄 he has a good understanding of the world, and that not everything has to be black and white
Do gay man constantly cheat on each other?
Thank you for showing biphobia, even inside the community. I'm bisexual and honestly, we also have problems within the community such as pan-phobia, transphobia, and ace-phobia.
Such as the lgb community group thing that’s literally just trans erasure
But not homophobia? Do you think bisexual ppl are exempt from being homophobic or something? Bisexual ppl aren’t “more oppressed” than homosexuals you know lol. Bisexual ppl aren’t more oppressed for being attracted to the same gender while still being attracted to the opposite gender. If anything that would be a *privilege* since you still have the capability of entering heterosexual relationships, homosexual ppl don’t have that privilege.
But why change a existing character, why couldn’t they just use one of the many x men, that aren’t known for that role. They couldn’t just make a new character gay?
@@keshon79
Because characters can evolve.
@@ricardo8640 evolve they rewrite his entire past, and changed it. That’s not evolving to me that’s not caring about your fans and the characters story arc.
The way Jean did that is soooo wrong! It pisses me off so much.
She is still learning about her power. I am sure that she learns to not poke in people head.
@@darkness1d Wrong she does it all the time, that how she found out Cyclops and Emma Frost was doing something. IT was a major part when she became Phoenix/Dark Phoenix. She has a bad habit with mental invasion
@@ExeErdna yep and I don’t think she’ll ever learn from it
I feel that the greatest problem with all of this is how forced it appears and how cardboard the characters seem.
But I don't really read Iceman that much, so it's just about taste.
Yeah but we got that awesome Jean grey look
Edit: I mean the shrug
“Bobby your gay.”
“Well shucks”🤷♂️
Imma be honest. People wanted something thats not forced or random, but in real life coming out often is unexpected and random so it does kinda make sense how it just comes out of nowhere.
I fully agree with you, as someone who's apart of the LGBTQ+ community, I remember the faces of people when I came out, and a lot of times people are being forced to come out, this was actually somehow pretty accurate to real life
Exactly! All sexuality stories and realizations are different.
Right so the fact that the character has years of history banging any chick with a pulse is suddenly all gone? No, he was retconned just to tick a box. That's it. Which is an insult to the character imo.
@@BradLad56Exactly. All this was was box they could check, Bobby's long history with the empath him being fully straight be damned.
I agree that the reveal was done incredibly poorly. I have to respectfully disagree with your point at 7:32. I think it is perfectly acceptable to consider alternative storylines that would have better fit the character's previously established history. Having Ice-man come out as bi would have felt less out of nowhere and not have diminished stories where Ice-man was in relationships with women. I think this would have been a more interesting plot. With a focus on Bobby coming to terms with another repressed element of his sexuality & identity as well as the prejudice many bi people experience. This would have also built on Bobby's character without retconning other previously established character traits & stories.
Maybe the writers weren't aware of the prejudices bi people face, so they had the character be gay because that was more familiar to them.
@@youdbettertube probably, still it is unfortunate
Diminished relationships with women hit me when you said that about this character. Polaris struggled with mental illness and he popped in and out of her life. He even confessed his love for her at her failed wedding in the middle of her mental break...so he thought it was appropriate to use someone with mental illness as his cover to keep deeply closeted and in denial. That kind of toxicity made me dislike the character, not his sexuality, just how he treated others as he coped with his sexuality and how ultimately they were just pawns in his life.
@@khopps7420 exactly my point. Making iceman gay put those stories in a negative light like iceman was using those people. Having him be bi would bring LGBT inclusion and not make iceman's previous relationships be beards. Which as you pointed out is cruel and callous.
Bobby Drake, Comic Drake...
*Coincidence? I think not!*
Shuri Black Panther's Sister I think so.
Shuri Black Panther's Sister comic drake coming out as gay actually works
@@chanovia5912 I think his then-girlfriend (now fiancee) would have a problem with that.
Stills screams bi-erasure to me, and Bendis’ trend of bad writing at the time certainly didn’t help.
It really isn’t.
I’m gay myself and have had numerous girlfriends. So in reality him having female lovers isn’t insane.
No you’re BI
@@ht_sheehan how do you know? he has had female lovers doesnt mean he is attracted to females. a lot of gay people say their bi because they are still trying to justify they like women and are sorta straight but eventually realise they are not really bi.
@@ht_sheehan just because you are gay and you've been with a woman before doesn't make you bi, most likely means you were in denial at the time or you wanted to hide is so bad that you fuck or tried to fuck a girl.
If you’re attracted to both sex’s you’re a form of bi whether you prefer one or more
@@TheDCbiz or you could be forcing your self to stay in the relationship becsuse you don't accept your self as gay. Depends on the situation
My biggest problem with it is that this disregarded all of his other relationships with women by saying nah he is fully gay and must be fully gay and not perhaps say a bi sexual. And the way Jean just forced him to confess by using her telepathy which made me question if it is truly his own feelings and not just her manipulation of him.
I love Northstar since it doesn’t feel like they are trying to hard to gain brownie points. He’s also not a stereotype like Iceman on the cover.
Ryriena Houston Born gay men can have girlfriends and wives then realize they were gay and start dating men
Northstar's been gay since the 80's or 90's Alpha Flight mini-series. Bobby was pretty much mind raped by Jean. It's lazy writing and the only reason Bobby was choses was chosen because he's one of the core X-men characters.
He was also kinda desperate for polaris. A little too much maybe.
Liberace was married. 🤷♂️
Jean: Bobby spell ICUP
Bobby: I-C-U-P
Jean: Bobby yo gay lol
Having a gay Mutant is a really good idea, especially given how Mutants are used as allegories, but changing an established character's sexuality with no build-up was bound to piss people off.
If Marvel/Bendis wanted to make Bobby gay, they should've either done at least some build-up to coming out (beyond citing a few panels elsewhere) and what that means instead of just suddenly being like "You're gay" "No I'm not" "Uuuh you are" "Okay fine I'm gay".
The other (better) options were, and I don't often say this, to make a new closeted gay character, allowing for this plotline but to explore those themes without baggage, and, uh, not involve time travelling telepathic outing. Or if they were feeling really bold, reveal Professor X and Magneto were lovers in the past.
@Star battle 2099 I don't mind what sexuality a character is, but it was just a very clumsy scene. I'm glad his later stories were handled better, though.
i know kitty Pryde has been outed recently with a same sex kiss, which i guess is a cool casual way, she has actually been written as a bi character for decades now. it would have been cooler for her to finally have the chance to have a proper coming out, either way now she is out it would be cool to have her in an actual same sex relationship. as whilst its all good for them to be out, they should probably have a proper relationship before its real representation. I don't mind Iceman being gay though, i think he had probably never been written as gay before but when there's a new writer to a comic they can obviously change stuff after all it is their story for their stint running it. not just that but everything is run by multiple people first, including iceman being gay run by marvel so they clearly are fine with it.
@Star battle 2099 yeah the problem was they wrote practically no hints, yeah theres a couple but not much. But the writers have said they wrote her as bi
@Star battle 2099 I mean sure you can think that, but I thought this was common knowledge
@Star battle 2099 I mean given how much lore there is its perfectly reasonable and understandable not to
As a bisexual 17 years old man/boy (whatever), I didn't like how they made him gay, not just because it wasn't his decision but because it wasn't on his character until Bendis.
I understand that there is justification with previous stories for the change, and I liked the Iceman book while it lasted, but it felt like a strieght man trying to be progressive and it wasn't handled properly.
Plus one of the issues has Iceman thinking of hitting on like a 50 year old guy he's know since he was a child. I mean... there's being gay and then there's kinks and I think teen Jean's influence kinda kickstarted some weird kinks into Bobby.
Bi nonbinary here, agreed.
ULGROTHA I was talking about Bendis, lol
"it felt like a straight man trying to be progressive"
Fuuckin' preach!
Mateo Abadia- It makes more sense if he was bisexual. As a bisexual girl myself.
I'm lesbian and I've dated guys before I accepted my sexuality, I did experiment too. Iceman could have done all those things before and sometimes you just have to act straight to protect yourself or other reasons. And him being outed is probably the worst way to tell an audience a character is gay he should have been able to say it himself or that red haired girl should have confronted him personally and asked.
That's kinda what she did, though. Take him to the.side and talk to him about it.
Iceman really would work better as a bisexual character. There was a story in Astonishing X-Men where Bobby gets possessed by the Apocalypse Seed and as it's going through Bobby's heart, mind and soul, it discovers that he truly did love Kitty Pryde and Mystique. There was a little moment about all of his exes coming in and that type of just comedy, all "Oh! Fuck my life! What am I gonna do?!" type of thing, but...
The biggest thing is that it was really important to me because Bobby's one of the very few men in comics that were sexually assaulted and abused in a relationship (at least, that I knew of at the time) so I was able to find comfort in that and related to him, and that helped me push through. Making him "full gay" as Jean puts it erases that and just brings it back to the same kind of ridicule I faced saying that I couldn't be abused or assaulted because I was a man, or saying that "if I didn't want it, I had to be gay". I'm all for inclusion and I like both men and women, but making him gay after that really just seems to me that they don't care about the male victims and just further that mindset of "Men can't be assaulted/abused".
Iceman being gay makes no sense. In spiderman and his amazing friends he was like really into firestar but like he didn't go for it
You know that that's a completely different universe from the comics, right?
That's a different universe.
i think iceman and firestar would have worked together they say opposites attract and they are basically opposites
I knew a dude in college who flirted with women to the extreme. He was dating a female friend of mine. We lost touch and years later I looked him up on Facebook to discovered he married another guy. I was blown away! We’ve never had a conversation about this as we aren’t that close...but this video made me think of him so I shared
I honestly think part of the problem was that Jean KINDA forced Bobby to come out of the closet instead of finding out about it via her powers and...well, talking with him about it.
In the Avengers Academy, Striker (A blow heart electrokinetic hero who wanted to be famous...but also got molested as a kid and thus got targetted by NOrman Osborn) came out to Julie Powers, who was a well knwon bisexual heroine in her own right and a veteran kid hero. She talked with him and helped him work up the courage to accept his sexuality. THAT was a nice story and heped develop the character. THIS...feels kinda iffy because of how he got forced out of the closet instead of allowing himself to come out when he felt like he wouldn't be judged.
Well yeah, I said that at 1:15.
I know. I was also kinda giving an example of a better written coming out story in Marvel for an example of how Marvel has done a similar stoy better ^^;;; Maybe just stick to that part, correct? You do bring up some good points involving...the current politics with homosexuality ^^;;;
I think Avengers Academy just needs more love as a whole, tbh.
OUTSIDE of a Battle Royale ripoff and a story with undercover teen heroes in the Masters of Evil.
I kinda want to see more of Hazmat, Striker, Finesse and the like as a team of heroes. Since we don't know hwat happened to Reptil and MEttle kinda got worfed the hell out of him.
Though I think people complaing about a gay Iceman seem to also forget a CERTAIN SOMEONE who is one of the best known gay characters in Marvel comics: Northstar.
...actually, I ahven't read X-MEn in awhile, has Bobby gone to Northstar for advice?
I still love Iceman, but his reveal was so badly written, I originally thought it was a joke. When I read that page I was so baffled, that I couldn't believe it. It felt crazy to me that Iceman could be gay, it's pretty out of character for him. Over time, I've come to accept it, though sometimes it feels like they're pandering and shoving his new sexuality down our throats (the cover of the new Iceman series is a good example, with his weird girly pose, and all the effeminate features drawn on the male characters). Iceman is still as funny and cool (pun not intended) as he's always been, the only difference is that instead of picking up ladies, he's gonna be picking up dudes, and while that is totally fine, it's too far out of left field to not be a topic of controversy, especially since it's not been handled too well.
I think the new Iceman book is just there to kinkshame Bobby, like I swear one issue had him swoon over his 50 year old neighbor. "Look how girly he is, going for a man 20 years older than him!" I mean it comes off as extremely creepy.
Except he didn't do that. He used his experience being gay and mutant to reach to the man who developed mutant pwoers and had a panic attack.
but hey, if you cannot have legitimate complaints about the book, you gotta keep lying, all to push an agenda, armrite?
If you don't have an argument, you should not say anything.
Andy buddy, sexuality is a major part of someone's personality and if they're showing that in his character wouldn't that make it more natural? Sounds to me like you aren't very accepting of this if you're gonna say "I accept it, but..."
Wyatt Marchuk It was never a part of his character before. I'm m getting used to the new iceman, but I miss the old one. I have no problem with people who have different sexualities, but you can't really compare a real person to a comic book character, especially in iceman's case.
Bobby being gay would be great, if they'd done it in a way where current timeline Bobby comes out in front of everyone, including his past self, and tells his past self to accept it and embrace it, and not be afraid. I would have loved if they'd explored that, and made it well. The way they did it? It almost looks like Jean MADE HIM GAY, because she arguably could with her telepathy, and depending on how time travel shenanigans work, turning young Bobby gay could turn current Bobby gay too.
Edit: Should probably mention, I'm bisexual, and I would have been interested in the whole bi ignorance aspect that they could've done as well.
Off comment, have you noticed current Marvel seems to be forgetting bisexuals exist right now?
I mean we tend to be forgotten all the time, so par for the course :')
High-Lord Harza I think they are coming I mean moondragon and phylla vell are coming back
WOOP THERE IT IS
High-Lord Harza disgusting
I'm bi and in my opinion I have to agree that this was objectively terrible and forced writing. Bendis is always trying to get ally brownie points and it's just another reason to hate him as a writer lol. There's so many mutant characters they could've made gay and they had to choose perhaps the least interesting and least believable one out of all of them and one that specifically stirs up a lot of controversy and makes people more averse to LGBT characters being in comics by proxy and due to his longevity/legacy, hell, if they had to pick an O5 character to make gay then why not Beast? No one gives a fuck about his relationships whereas Bobby/Kitty was a huge thing for years...and I know this is a stereotype but he's always been somewhat of a campy guy in comparison to Bobby. Plus...seriously, I know you also said this in your video along with most of my other points but, why not just make him bi to avoid all the retcon-y stuff? Ugh, fucking Bendis, man.
Also sorta off topic but it also mildly annoys me that Bobby got put straight into a book about him exploring his sexuality yet Deadpool, a much more believably closeted LGBT character whose struggle with his sexuality can be explored in much more interesting ways, has still never been allowed to express his attraction to men in any way that's not played off as a joke. The dude was basically straight up in love with Cable (at least those are the vibes I got) and that'll probably never get remarked on nor will his attraction to any other male characters yet Bobby gets a whole ass mini series about it. Shit sucks imo.
That's exactly my point.
Deadpool actually recently got a story with him being even more pansexual than usual, and there's a whole page about how he's in a same-sex relationship in one of the realities (the comic takes place over like 11 different ones, in one reality he's with Captain Marvel and the other with Iceman). I believe it's called Deadpool: The End? I haven't read much of it myself so I can't speak to how good it is but as a bi person I thought it was pretty cool!
Idk Iceman seems like a pretty good choice to make gay. Someone being a ladies man to compensate for being gay seems pretty spot on.
@@billbutton8468 no it doesnt their was no evidence of him being gay he literally was a womanizer. Just make a character thats gay instead of turning characters who wasnt randomly gay. Makes no sense
@@sike3228 makes complete sense to me. Bring a womanizer doesn't magically mean you cant be gay
I'm sorry man but I always felt they kinda forced this
5:12, dude.
Comic Drake nevermind, I'll be quiet
I'm not saying to be quiet, I'm saying that in the video I very clearly agree with you, but that in my opinion, it doesn't make the plot beat bad in and of itself. Why not add a rebuttal to that and have a conversation?
they kevin spaceyed it* (*allegedly)
Yep as a gay man i agree
You’ve opened me up to the idea of Iceman being gay. I’ve always been supportive of the LGBT community however I thought that changing Iceman’s sexuality seemingly out of nowhere was a bad move. This video has really changed my mind on the matter. It makes perfect sense that a closeted gay man would put on the facade of a womanizer to not only distract others from his true feelings but to also distract himself from them. Maybe he had an internalized prejudice towards homosexuality informed by his upbringing which made him feel the need to repress his sexuality.
I'm definitely not trying to change minds with this video since people usually are set in their ways. The best I can do is offer a different perspective and something to think about. I'm glad you enjoyed the video and I hope to see you in the comments more often!
Comic Drake I know you aren’t, It just resonated with me.
still
Didn't some psychic force him to be gay? I think I remember Diversity & Comics talking about that...
Tony Gomez it’s honestly not the fact that he’s gay that everyone hates it’s the fact the they wrote him so horribly campy, cliche, and also completely changed the character of other mutants, like North Star, just to make the story work a little bit
Why problem is less icemans gay and more the fact there are already a ton of characters they could have use.
Retconning Bobby to being gay since he was a teenager is bad enough, the way they went about revealing it was super scummy. Jean just reads his mind and outs him is extremely shitty, and it opens the door to the possibility that Jean herself altered his identity in the first place.
Also with Bobby being a womanizer for most of his life, it's also lazy character to writing to just say "nope he was gay all along", especially when there are other characters who had rode the line of being either gay or bisexual. Hell, if Kitty came out as bisexual, nobody would bat an eye due to the amount of times she was oogling women in the 80's.
I think it was Jean who altered him because currently her, wolverine, and cyclops are in a polyamorous relationship that she might have manipulated them into. She could have done the same thing to iceman.
@@loredelamore yes he is, they revealed it and I’m assuming that you did not write the comic
I dont think Bobby was in the closet. I think he just didn't know because at the time he never explored his bisexuality. He was raised heteronormative so it was easy just to be straight and anytime he might have had gay thoughts he brushed it off jokingly. Its like how do you know you like something if you've never had or experienced it? His womanizing was genuine in that is what he learned how to act as a dude. Its not until his relationship with Cloud when he might have started questioning and considering his relationships with men. His relationships with Mystique and Emma Frost being trapped in his body being metaphors for Transwoman. Is a person who dates a Trans woman gay? Despite being attracted to what essentially looks like a biological woman? Note also that he jokingly makes comments about Angel who has a bit of an Effeminate beauty to him. Most other men around him appearing more masculine and hairy. Which could explain why he didn't like Logan at first.
So this is why you think it makes sense “in theory”, but the practice hasn’t held up so far.
I’ve never really been a fan of Ice Man and the way I see it this actually gives his character something to do other than be the goofball.
Bobby is the most static and judgemental character in the X-men. I would have liked if younger Bobby realized being gay was alright through interaction with other gay X-men, came out to Bobby and then Adult Bobby ended up wondering if he was gay or bi. Since they had thought that younger Bobby was from his past it could have been an interesting subplot.
Athan Nyx keeping in mind that the “past X-men” have to be from another dimension at this point, that definitely would’ve been a better way to go about it.
5:45 while I do see your point.
Iceman in his 80s limited series run literally said that he was In love with a women he saw for the first time (insert madonnas like a virgin here).
Stan Lee in an interview said that he never thought of iceman nor any of his characters sexual identities.
He also said he doesn't mind that Iceman is now gay.
@@ComicDrake true ;)
@@ComicDrake and it also makes sense because of his questionable clothing.
doesn't Stan Lee being surprised that Iceman was gay prove he was never gay to begin with? I mean who would know better than the man who created him, right?
just my observation.
TheGeckoNinja IRONY! Look everybody I found some Irony! Amaazing, wow. Ooo whee, it's heavy!
@@lapidot4ever647 no he wasn't
Things change about the characters over times, they get tweaked, they get new character traits, new backstories, what is so outlandish about changing a character's sexuality when them being straight was never explicitly said?
@@user-iy7jo7bq4f it's not that he didn't want it, it's that he never even considered having lgbt characters cause they just were not out back in the day when he was writing. And considering how much they've changed about the characters he created one or two characters sexualities is the smallest issue possibly.
Stan Lee and Jack Kirby created hundreds of characters and those characters have been in control of dozens of writers. So, no, the things they created are hardly still the same.
And Stan Lee wrote The X-men for only 19 issues. A very short run.
I didn't understand my bisexuality until my 30s and I am still dealing with it. Humans are complex creatures.
His tolerance towards Rogue and her "touch me and literally die" thing makes a lot more sense now.
Earth-616 Iceman never dated Rogue.
Rogue in the comics is married to Gambit
even tho as a bi person I would love to see a bi iceman, given the whole thing with closeted gay people being in heterosexual relationships, being gay was a good choice too. the complete dismissal of him being bi in an almost joking manner felt a bit too close to saying that the idea that bi people existing is a joke which wasn't that good of an idea
Is this a new narrative being spun right now that gays don't believe bisexuality is a thing, it's binary 1 & 0. I even heard a gay guy calling bisexuality bull shit, and I was thinking this is a gay guy being discriminatory lol.
So.... overall good video, and nice to have all the back issue reasons why his sexuality "works" in one spot. So please take this as constructive criticism, but I wouldn't call us gays "homosexuals". It's a clunky and clinical term that is most often used by those who think we don't deserve basic human rights. Like I cringed everytime you said it. I know that wasn't your intent, so again just think of this as a "hey btw" moment and not a "you're an idiot and now i'm going to unsubscribe" moment.
Oh and on the topic of Iceman's solo series (his first on-going even!), I have to say that it was maybe the most relatable comic I have ever read. I personally loved every issue because it was maybe the first time I really saw "me" in a comic. That said, I am like you and enjoy interpersonal stories as much as I like action (maybe even a bit more). Probably why I like so much older Avengers stories when they never got along haha
I totally get why using the term homosexuals makes you feel uncomfortable. While it is a scientific term, it has frequently been used as a term of hate and bigotry. I had a couple of my LGBT friends read over the script before I put the video into production and that's one of the notes that I got back. However, we agreed that constantly using the term gay hurt representation of lesbians, but it's harder to work that narritive about homosexeuality in regards to both genders when the subject of the video is strictly a man. Using "gay and lesbian" works, but it feels a bit clunky when read out loud.
Another thing is that ultimately, this video is for people that disagree with the stance that Iceman being gay is fine. By and large, the LGBT community is pretty much on board with it. Because of that, it helps to use terms they are more comfortable using in conversation, but I specifically used it less so that I could appease those people, but while still mostly using inclusive verbiage.
The language regarding members of the LGBT community is pretty tricky to navigate, especially to an outside like me, but while using the term "homosexuals" made you shudder, you clearly recognized that I was not saying it in a hateful way to make the LGBT community appear sub-human. I believe that context is key and I definitely did my best to make sure that I was respectful as I could be.
Edit: I also need to be "that guy" and correct you on your comic lore. Sina Grace's run is Iceman's THIRD ongoing series. ;P
@@ComicDrake FWIW I had no problem with the term, you handled it with tact. I prefer queer, it's easier and more encompassing 🙂
I second this. It was very cringe in an otherwise good video essay. The word homosexual is not more inclusive of lesbians. Ask any lesbian. 'Gay men and women' rolls off the tongue better than a clinical term. Even more disappointed that you asked for feedback and proceeded with something offensive because it was easier for you to say.
It has been 7 Years since Brian Michael Bendis decides to change his sexuality and nothing was done or explore about it.
The Iceman Solo series was terrible, it's boring, poorly written, and had zero impact on the character. They did nothing about it in X-men Blue and there haven't been any other writers using that change to do anything interesting with him. Iceman is literally a D listed Hero now and I find that a crime since he is a founding member.
In the beginning, I was expecting they do something with him to make him relevant since he is an excellent character but Now I can confidently say the change was made for Shock value and there was no plan about it. The fact he is gay now had zero impact in the way the character is written today so saying "Iceman Being Gay Kind of Works!" isn't true.
i'm actually glad that "the fact he is gay now had zero impact in the way the character is written today". Honestly I'd be a little disappointed if it did, because him being gay doesn't have anything to do with his personality. The fact that he got a storyline about him coming to terms with his sexuality is cool (imo, you by no means have to agree), but then they moved on with the actual story that's about like, superheroes and stuff (like they should). That's what happens in real life (my experience anyway), there's a period in time that you spend coming to terms and dealing with your identity (in this case it was his solo series) but eventually you move on to your actual life.
Well to be fair, most comics makes the male characters "ladies men" to make them "cool". I've always felt that Iceman and/or Beast were closeted. I thought they'd be bisexual, considering they did have "lady loves". I thought Marvel was flirting w/ the idea when they wrote stories where Iceman & Northstar became "lovingly close".
Everyone saying "Iceman turned gay out of nowhere" clearly have no idea of the struggles of the LGBT+ community. They are unwilling and/or unable to realize that ppl have hid their sexuality ever since ppl were persecuted for it. Anyone who claims to be a fan of "mutants" should be able to understand the simple notion of "I'm different for most ppl, but if I reveal that difference I could be marginalized or even killed for it". And yes, as a bi guy myself, there's hate from within & outside of the LGBT+ community--so it's much easier to display a side which is more accepted by most (being "straight"). While some LGBT+ ppl have kids to further their facade, it should also be noted that most of them have kids becase they actually want a family of their own.
While I don't necessarily agree w/ the way Marvel "outed" Iceman, I can understand it, because ppl are "outed" by those close to them all the time. If anyone should've outed Iceman, it should've been Emma Frost (who once possessed his body), because it's more in her character to dredge around in ppls' minds to gain an advantage over them, but to keep it a secret, until the time is right for her to enact her plan. Jean doing that seems totally out of character, especially since the 1st use of her power was psi-linking to the mind of her dying childhood friend--which traumatized Jean. I could see Xavier or Betsy knowing, but keepng it a secret, but having "teen Jean" just out him like that was not only bad writing, but also plain odd.
@@ottoroberts5163 and Blackton obvious. I am an in-the-closet gay and because of this I know how stressful it is. I have pretended to like girls but it bothers me so much whenever I try to do it. I really want to talk about it with my family but I can't do it. I'm too much of a coward. I have hidden this from everyone else who knows me except the friends I trust most. They are kind of supportive and two of them are part of the LGBTQ community. Also there is this guy who is absolutely gorgeous but I'm not sure if he likes me back so I can't tell him. The stress is killing me but I can't do anything about it because literally everyone in my family except for my mom, dad, sister, and grandparents on my dad's side are anti gay and I really need help from other people in the closet and out of the closet so can either of you help me? Like give verbal advice? It would just help so much to have someone who understands how I feel to talk to.
Most comic characters that have existed for a long time have most likely been put in straight relationships multiple times through the years (something for almost no reason), so making a character like Iceman gay without having any straight relationships in his past, is almost impossible.
Don’t get me wrong, I love we are getting more variety in comics. More gay characters, biracial, and even more trans characters. I love it, 100% agree with it and I’ll always be in support of it.
That said, I’m in the camp that says Bobby should be Bi instead of gay. Bi characters don’t get as much as media attention plus it wouldn’t undermine all the other relationships Bobby has had. He could still go through all of these issues and relationship stuff without saying “all those previous relationships with women didn’t mean anything to him”.
Oh well, too late now to do much about it.
EXACTLY!!!!
As a bisexual transgender girl myself, I kinda hate the idea. I enjoy the concept of LGBT characters in the comic universe, but I strongly dislike the idea of taking a character who is known for his straightness, and making him gay.
Jl Pnnng The the main reason why people, myself included, have a problem with it. I would wholeheartedly welcome a new homosexual or bisexual character, just as long as their character isn't defined by their sexuality.
Maybe but that doesn't necessarily mean that the person will forever be 100% straight or that every born child is immediately deemed as a heterosexual.
Good video as always. I always felt it's a good idea to make compelling stories about those who tend not to get a lime light.
My 8th grade math teacher was gay and he married a woman and had a kid before he told her he was gay
Bobby being gay has really pissed me since Bobby x Kitty will always be close to my heart.
You could keep it as a headcannon if it works for you. People headcannon straight characters being literally anything exept for straight so I don't see why it can't be in reverse as well. (Sorry if my english is bad.)
Whoa hell no. Kitty and Colossus are endgame. Bobbing to the cool as friends
This reminds me of the whole "Beast is gay" thing that Grant Morrison put into his New X-Men titles, in the mid 00's. Beast essentially "Came out" the exact same way, by telling an ex-girlfriend that he didnt think he'd be getting back with her because and I quote, "I think I'm gay". This went on for numerous issues where Beast would explain how he's gay via a in-universe magazine, and he'd be asked about his sexual orientation by his own teammates. The tasteless part IMO, is that Grant Morrison wrote it in a way where Beast just said he was gay without meaning it, and did it in the first place to challenge his intellect or some BS. But nobody ever talks about this, odd.
Can we just talk about how thorough that disclaimer from 4:40 - 5:12 was? Can we?
3:45 As someone who lives in Tennesse I can confirm people do this.
Oh hell naw. Don't make Iceman an LGTV
This happened years ago so cope.
@@ComicDrake As long as they leave Spider-Man alone I am fine
@@ComicDrake "cope" 🤥
@@aranha6285 I'd love to see Pete hook up with Harry Osborn
@@aranha6285 witty webweaver
While I understand your reasoning I just feel like your making your own head canon rather than most of this being implied . Yes gays have been in heterosexual relationships but I don’t remember them addressing this when it comes to Ice Man and I think the reveal showed just how marvel saw this . A quick retcon Solely for tokenism.
They addressed it heavily in the recent Iceman series. It's one of the main focuses of the book.
The Blazed Informer yup
The Blazed Informer ...How does that make sense?
The Blazed Informer that really doesn't make any sense. Yes you could say you shouldn't have to, but people will argue against you a lot of times.
Like Rian Johnson defending his Star Wars movie. Sometimes u want to defend things that are there
Obara I think he means is that if you can’t get a clear grasp of a character’s sexuality then it’s the writers fault for not making it clear. At least that’s what I interpret from this person.
Peter Griffin says Iceman's gay.
Good enough for me.
Great work. I love that your making videos that get people talking.
Drake you seriously kill it @ video's! & loved the intro 😂
Is he gay or bi? Because him being completely gay kind of doesn't work with some older stories
Why not just watch the video?
Sorry Drake knee-jerk reaction I just used to look up to ice man as a "ladies man" he was what I wanted to be like, but it is nice to have such a god tier powered lgbt that isn't deadpool
I feel like it would've been better if he was bisexual too, but that's just my opinion
no its a fact, GAY PEOPLE HATE THE ICEMAN COMICBOOK!!!!!!!!
Jorge Burgos I dont
jean reading his mind without permission is already bad on its own but outing someone via telepathy is pretty scum baggy
This is a great video. I've started collecting the Iceman comics and am really looking forward to reading them soon.
That was a great report of this topic, I agree, wish these sorta discussions could happen more.
Is no one talking about that ice men - wolverine scene in the movies, where they are practicly flirting with each other, blowing "ice" in wolverines "bottle" ?! :D
How is that flirting? lol. Smh. Seems like that’s what YOU wanted it to be. All he did was turn his beer cold bc that’s his power. Dummy. Smh. Lol.
Bobby is a minor in that movie. I don't think this was something the writers intended...
More like B-ice-exual am I right
This is such a dumb joke, thankyou
Up top 🤚
This is a great topic and video. I love that you chose to do this video. This is why I subscribed to this channel. You definitely have a great way in which you discuss your topics. Thank you and can't wait to see whats next
Thank you for making this.
Family guy predicted this. LMAO
And this whole video was way more thorough and tasteful than I was prepared for! You even found time to bring up bisexual erasure! Hell yeah!
Of all the classic X-Men to be gay, I think Bobby really is the best choice. There's something about him that feels a lot more down to earth than most of the others, and this revelation drives that home for me. It makes it feel a bit more genuine, if that makes any sense.
Thank you for doing this video!
You probably wont see this but could you make a video tou thing on Kitty pyrde referenced bisexuality. Apparently she has been written as biseuxkqu since she was made but no one has ever brought her our the closet in a comic panel. A writer has touted her as bi but apparently that doesnt count as cannon. Do you think this fits her character. Personally I think it does especially as she has always been bi but closeted.
For me, X-Men ended around the early 2000s, and I'm happy with that :)
The '90s (the Jim Lee era) was my favorite era of the X-Men.
In which comic book did it end
I feel like it would have made more sense if he was bisexual
More like b-ice-exual
Thanks, you handled this sensitively and I appreciate that you did your research to cover gaps in your lived experience
This video is extremely well thought out and I think it’s a shame that there aren’t more of these in the Comic Drake library. It opened me up to a new idea, and it explored a major current event within the scope of comic books
I don’t care about iceman being retconned to be gay or bi, but I think we can all agree Brian Michael Bendis just did this to push progress narrative. And Sina Grace’s run on ice man after that was just so terrible.
HOLY SHIT FAMILY GUY PREDICTED THE FUTURE!!!!
I hope Colton Haynes sharpens his acting chops. Maybe be the new Iceman when the MCU rolls out XMen.
Erm....Shawn Ashmore already expressed himself that he wouldn't mind doing more X-Men films as Iceman as well as exploring his character's sexuality.
I agree
Thank you for your work and the sensitivity you put into this topic.
I am kinda hoping Marvel or DC creates a Asexual character as there is hardly any in all of TV or Comics.
Perhaps the biggest character I know of is Rorschach (Jughead is to ) but that is not really explored.
there are plenty of asexual beings in the marvel galactic multiversal landscape.
I thought Rorshach was s defined masculine character? He didnt sleep with anyone (that we know of) and frankly Rorshach is a good enough detective that he would eventually figure out he was in a comic and break the fourth wall ala Wade Wilson.
Why? Why do you want that? I don’t get you people.
It would be nice for a super hero to to help and save the world without having to do it for a love interest
Keelan Barron I mean what is the point of making a character for the purpose of being asexual?
Maybe I’m so against it because of bendis yes I’m ok blame bendis for my bitterness of this
Bendis was also the one who retconned Wanda and Pietro as experiments by the high evolutionary.
Great video! Keep up the excellent work Drake.
I just read iceman and I'm confused. Who was Natasha Angel was talking about on the Hollywood sign?
"You have to be pretty blind to not appreciate that those are good looking dudes."
Uh.... guess I am blind then. Or asexual, according to at least two of my friends^^
Thanks for this video. I love Iceman now that he's out of the closet. Volume one did a decent job of writing Bobby's coming out in stages. I was upset with the toned down outtings in volume two. But really thank you for your support of the character, his transition , and the writer's choice I storytelling
I was a little worried when I clicked on the video, but you have handled this wonderfully. You remained open minded and accepting of others opinions without deeming any as "wrong". Thanks for this video!
I think he opened his mind a little 2 much
Brandonmdog what’s that supposed to mean....?
btw I love these types of videos, I would look forward to more these types.
I thought the idea was great, and re reading years of X titles it actually makes sense. His love interests always felt like he was flaunting it. Also his parents in the books were exactly the type that would inspiring staying in the closet. Funny that Emma Frost knew and was polite enough to just make an off hand joke, yet his team mate just blurts it out.
I dunno it feels like a lie, as we were on his inner dialogue during a lot of his romantic moments in the past...I would have bought that he was Bi..and that he buried his gay side on the regular timeline...
but between how it was revealed and how iceman became just about being gay...
I dunno As a memeber of the comunity i would like to see LGBT character be chacters...
We are our ideals, faith, race, sexualy, etc, etc, etc...a lot of stuff...sometimes..just like with race i think that writers just focus on one aspect when it comes to "diverse characters" and that's all they are allowed to be while characters like wolverine cand be a mysterious spy, samurai, teacher,xmen, avenger... etc all at the same time..Iceman is now Gay...and thats it.
I think this vid was just as good as your other videos, i'm down with you going for more topics outside of just lore
I think the reveal would have been better if it was foreshadowed by Present Bobby when he found out that version of the Past X-Men was the first one and built up with a small sub plot about Present Bobby being conflicted on whether or not he should talk to his Past self ultimately ending an issue where Present Bobby tells Past Bobby they need to talk in private.Much like what Nick Fury whispered to Thor we won’t know what was said but as the issues go by if you pay attention to Past Bobby we would see subtle changes and later on in the volume he finally comes out.
I think that this was excellent and the explanation on why him being gay isn't out of character as so many seem to think was very well thought out.
I definitely have to agree myself, the reveal was...kind of forced...but I have no strong feelings one way or another as to whether that's good or bad. Ultimately though, him being gay, at least to me, is just another facet of his being, it's not like it's the only thing he has going for him, and the fact that he's an older and we'll beloved character makes it have more of an impact than if Marvel introduced a new character that was gay.
All in all, great video, Bobby being gay is great and excited to see more!
P.s. The intro was hilarious, smooth and awesome!
Joshua Reynolds
How?
Alex Noa Because writers have been writing him as undoubtably straight and not a single psychic had figured out that he was secretly gay for decades.
Diedkid 145 perhaps you should've, ye know, watched the video? It clearly explains the reason such things never happened, (I.e. Extremely deep repression) and as a note just because you're psychic doesn't mean you're going to be able to read every aspect of a person without digging around in their mind, and as the years have gone on Homosexuality hasn't been as large of a taboo up till now where society as a whole has generally accepted it, so even if they did find out many wouldn't even care or feel it appropriate to mention
EpitomeOfJustice I did watch the video. And again, not a single writer before the reveal ever wrote him as a closeted gay man and despite being in contact with physics that were more powerful than teenage Jean many times, not a single physic ever pointed out he was gay. So yes, this is out of character for Ice Man and was done so that Bendis didn't have to go through the effort of making a new gay character.
Diedkid 145
How does one write a character as "undoubtedly straight"? Maybe they weren't looking for his sexuality or maybe he had learned to specifically shield it from telepathy.
I personally don't think it works because of the fact that you can literally see comic book character's thoughts. So unless he was faking his thoughts for about 50 years, which wouldn't really make much sense, then that really doesn't make much sense in continuity. Also, the fact that they wrote him like an 80s sit-com character in his solo book didn't help.
That's what repression IS.
Yeah, I get that's what repression is, but the fact that there we never saw any thoughts of the sort, even when he was quite young and would have been dealing with the internal struggle much more, makes the retcon work pretty poorly.
repression doesn't mean making someone gay because diversity and the comic you showed in the video is canceled
When you are repressing yourself even your thought are different. When I didn't believe I was gay I used to think that when I was looking at a goodlooking guy it was because I wanted to be like him not that I felt atracted to him. And I believed for a while.
This was a super super awesome video! As someone who only really reads Ms. Marvel these days (though I'm getting into Aftershock Comics' "Alters" series) I had no idea about this until now. I might have to pick up a couple copies of Iceman in the near future...
I NEEED to know the issue name and number were Bobby gets squeezed by Daken. Help
It was a truly awful, tasteless reveal but it did make sense. Iceman has been joked about being closeted for as long as I was old enough to understand what that means. The subtext was always there. I usually hate random switch ups like gender swaps, race swaps or orientation swaps(at least this far into the history, it's different if that was always the goal) but here it makes sense cuz a lot of closeted men tend to present an overly masculine, overly womanizing image because they're actively trying to convince you that they're straight, that's why people tend to think vehemently anti-gay people who get offended at even a joke hinting at them being gay, are actually gay, you're trying too hard so it shows it's an act. Not to mention there aren't many gays to begin with and the X-men had a lot of symbolism identifying with LGBTQ people, it's not a big stretch when you actually think about it, especially compared to a lot of other twists, people are just mad cuz gay is still not fully accepted.
I’m a gay man and what’s crazy is Iceman has always been my fave now I know why
Same there's always been _something_ about him that I liked when I was a kid and now it all make sense
This was well done Drake! :) much appreciated
ever since he became gay quite literally of nowhere he became a nothing character, you could actually trace Tim and John's change to Iceman getting Bendis'd, so good job supporting these things i guess, even tho it ends up with the character getting worse or flat out forgotten, anything for some brownie points
From a long context the concept and idea seems good and has some ground in it, the execution however was TERRIBLE!
The 1st impressions were so forced and painfull...that it pissed off people.
And I think thats why "SJW" Marvel came to be.
The writers did every execution horribly as possible wich soured it all.
I waws fine with female thor as it was a good take and had a good starting execution. The rest was meh.
But I will still hold with Stan Lee. "If you want a "gay" spiderman. Make it, but don't do it to Peter Parker."
That's just my opinion. Otherwise it felt like you would know how to fix the "Bobby being gay and coming out thing" done better.
Like from the start.
I want to know from your angle how it would been opened then this "jean grey" doing it like this.
Personally it would been nicer for Jean to go.. Bobby I noticed something. Maybe you should talk to your older self on how happy he is now.
Bobby would be like: Why? And Jean looks at him saying: "I think you know why."
Then go to older Bobby and have the talk and Jean saying she picked up his thought of being gay and then the whole reveal comes full circle wwith both young and old Iceman revealing they are gay and it's okay.
did Family Guy kinda outed him before Marvel....OMG Seth Mc Fairlane is from the future
“At least they know how to touch a man! Ohhhhhhh, walk away.”
I think you did a great job with this video - and I super appreciate the research you did☃️💕
i figured the point was supposed to be hinting at young Jean becoming less morally steadfast trying to not go the way of Dark Phoenix