Don't Turn Your Speakers SIDEWAYS!! JBL 305 MKIIs!
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- čas přidán 27. 08. 2024
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In this video, Cinema Sound presenter Mark Edward Lewis shows us the pitfalls of why to never have speakers pointed sideways and why having the upsidedown might be a GOOD idea! Using the JBL LSR 305 MK IIs.
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Didn't know upside down was an option! 🙂 Thank you!
Lot of confusion here. What is critical if laying down sideways is to place the drivers EQUIDISTANT from your ear in my opinion. I.e., the speaker are pointed directly at you, toed in. Then there is no issue in that one position. If you move around the room, you will experience the phase shift from the different drivers being different distances from your ear. That being said, I have not heard of a manufacturer saying that it would be detrimental to the physics of the device to run them sideways, but I've only checked a few.
The waveguide is actually to make the tweeter less directional
It's actually there to create a specific dispersion pattern. It's there to tune directivity, not just make it less directional in general. This is why JBL spends so many hours and $$ in their anechoic chamber (and representative listening rooms) to perfect those waveguides.
Um, don't high frequency's move through the air faster than low ones?, so even in a vertical position your ears are still receiving high content info first yes?, so what's the difference?. I've been mixing for over 20 years and always run my NS10's on there side, my mixes translate very well to most other listening mediums. Also most of the major studios that i have worked in over the years do the same. I get the logic behind it and the theory, but in practice it really dosn't matter, thousands of hit albums have been tracked and mixed through NS10's laying vertical, just sayin..:)
Physics disagrees with you. As I mentioned, if you know your speakers, you can do whatever. But as a rule, again, physics disagrees with the idea that there are less or equal phase issues having speakers on their side.
ns10 tweeter has no waveguide, and it's not centred, so if you lay them on the side the tweeter will still be at a higher level than the cone, that's actually why you will see engeneers lay their ns10's in the same direction.
you mean horizontally not vertically there yeah
?
What is critical is to place the drivers EQUIDISTANT from your ear. I.e., the speaker pointed directly at you. Then there is no issue in that one position.
If you do enough research you might discover that you absolutely can place a speaker horizontally.
Don’t do it if you don’t want to do it and do it if you decide it makes sense in your space.
The information and measurements are out there.
Regardless of how you design or place a speaker there will be sonic considerations that need to be considered and compromise is always present.
I keep getting videos like this in my feed as I watched a few of them previously.
BTW, never say “vice-a versa” that is not a thing.
Upside down or sideways are talked about with jbl speakers via the website! Where it’s stated that jbl speakers are not intended to use any other way!
might as well be saying never move your head up and down 6 inches or so, the difference between the middle speaker and the Tweeter. I mean we're talking about 90° angles here. your ear being perpendicular to the part of the speaker in preference usually the Tweeter. if speaker is sideways but your ears level with both of the speakers in the speaker is say seven feet away. it will sound perfectly fine. in the "test" you put the mic to each woofer and Tweeter at a time and at off angles.
long story short upside down sideways any which ways you want the tweeters pointing at your mlp/ears.
nah sorry man center channels have woofers next to tweeters it's the same thing and your video doesn't produce any evidence either this is how you can prove it to me and your viewers have a microphone and camera setup across the room from a speaker but off angled by two feet and have somebody turn the speaker from right side up to its side right in the same position. then we will see just exactly how much of an effect we're talkin about. I've actually had speakers on their side and it's all good! true story. now the horn tweeters with the widened of will have a more of a difference, but that's not exactly what we're talking about.
Cinema Sound I'm actually staring at a speaker in front of me right now that has a woofer next to the Tweeter and the logo is written horizontally across it it's designed to be on vertical position or horizontal position it's a regular speaker! 🙂
sounds great all over the room!
Sitting at a desk with some monitors definitely have your speakers vertical, image is getting messed up. Bookshelf speaker satellite speaker 7 feet away pointed right at you 90° perpendicular to your head, "perfectly "fine"" a difference of oh say a 24th of a millasecond at most. if you're an imagery can you feel like walking around your room a lot and yeah definitely have be vertical. I guess what bothered me a little bit was that the test is super exaggerating and what you would actually experience and what would qualify as massive issues is a situation where you're sitting at a desk doing studio work and they're sideways right next to you, totally with you there! But the way you're presenting it you making it seemed as though it's a disaster if someone has a nice set up going on where the speakers are a good distance away and on their side pointing right at the listener, it's going to "sound fine" . How are you with center channels I was just reading an article on people who think center channels are the plague lol
Anyway I do respect the logic you're getting at it is common knowledge and speaker expertise it's just that as a professional you should explain what you're talkin about in a reasonable way if a reasonable test. If you sit across a room and close your eyes and I point a bookshelf at you you might be able to barely notice the difference, but not a major disaster in sound. It's really hear the weird effects you got to be 2 feet from the speaker and moving your head around constantly or walking around your room and being upset about it as opposed to thinking it sounded cool what's a lot of people might do. Seeking perfect imaging it's different, with music it doesn't really matter, it matters when you're watching a movie we're doing studio work 2 feet away from your monitors. Okay peace!
Cinema Sound I didn't mention speaker in a bookshelf. and if I did the majority the integrity of the "sound" but still be just fine! the "dead perfectness of imagery" is pretty much literally impossible in every situation to some micro degree. a horizontal speaker running right at you 7 feet away is more like a 25th of a millisecond, 250 microseconds is 1/4 of a millisecond which is a huge difference, I never mentioned 250 microseconds. that would be if the Tweeter was forward or receded exactly 3 inches from the mid-range in a line toward the listener! because roughly a millisecond is a foot in distance. if the speaker is horizontal and pointing right at you from several feet away we could be talking more like 1/8 of an inch.
but I think even in extremes it's still all what sounds good to listener. thiers producers out there to this winning Grammys with their monitors on their side, some have multiple speakers right next to each other on their left side and on the right side so I can move your head all around and listen to whateach kind of sound, each kind of speaker of sound is producing. but most all recognize the importance of triangle positioning of tweeters.
I appreciate having this conversation one thing we didn't address is stereo imaging between two different monitors and their distance to each other, if upright and in an equilateral triangle to you they can simulate a stronger center channel effect. which is awesome. if two monitors are horizontal they create a much wider stronger stereo effect, which is also awesome! it's all in the magic everybody's enjoying different stuff, a lot of producers actually prefer the wide effects. okay thanks!
Luckily for us, in our less-than-ideal home studio, the JBL LSR range (we have the larger 308s) have one of the most amazingly wide "sweet spots" around, courtesy of the weird looking "waveguide" around the tweeters.
It's amazing how many sideways speakers I see in project studios. Always makes me question their credibility!
Some monitors are designed to be used sideways, Adam has a few models
Adam even has one that is designed to be upright or sideways, so how does that work? I am kinda not buying this demo as he had the mic 5 inches from the speaker and was tilting the speaker. Who sits that close to a speaker and horizontal doesn't mean tilting it. I am sure I am missing something as he obviously is much more knowledgeable than me. But, right now I am not buying it. My monitors "Kali's" are sideways and they sound better than they did upright which made the tweeter too high. @@germanher7528
How come line arrays have them side by side? I believe we are hearing it right, but the reason isn't the placement.
I would think that the text on the speaker would be an indicator that you're setting them up against what they recommend.... it's weird that NS-10m's would have the text written horizontally if you're not supposed to set them up that way
I think his recommendation is good advice for people to experiment with speaker placement. It’s definitely not a one size fits all answer.
What about coaxial monitors?
On the head of my bed if I put the speakers so the tweeters are down it's the same height as if the speakers are sideways. And I must say I get better sound by tweeters and woofers when on its side.
When you put the LSR series upside down you are tossing any heat build up onto the electronics instead of it escaping through the heat sink. Could over heat your unit.
Hasn't in 10 years.
so never ever side ways, but my lsr 305 can be sideways as a center?
upside down or sideways makes nearly ZERO difference if you are using proper stands but for GOD'S SAKE do NOT place them on a desk!!!!!! that's the sound killer. Also don't place them within a meter of the rear wall or NEAR anything that is going to give you nasty reflections and cause comb filtering etc
A great change upsidedown!
Thanks!
Thanks
Thank you for the information
I do it and it sounds fine if you know what you’re doing and understanding what you’re hearing
Nope, Ben, those who know what they're doing would understand that you can't orient this waveguide horizontally.
Well when I did that with these model my mix became exponentially better
@@BenLukemusic Me too. i've ;literally rotated them multiple times, and in my room, they sound INFINITELY better on their sides, with the bass cone's in the middle and the tweeter's facing on the outside. (Shrug)
Horizontal is how I have my jbls.
What about speakers like the NS10’s that are traditionally placed horizontally?
Very informative. I have some HS7’s. Definitely turned them sideways cause the tweeters were to high. But I definitely noticed phasing. So maybe upside down is the right way for these for my setup. :)
Traditionally doesn't mean right :)
Hi, thank you for the video. What is the title of the song in the background? :)
Thanks for the video. I have the same spkrs, connect to Motu4 audio int. How to avoid the surge noise when I power off the audio int...
please explain what a 'height coefficent' is - or a 'chair coefficient' - seriously! are you HONESTLY expecting to get away with this stupidity? I UNDERSTAND people are NAIVE but this is a whole new level i think
How about subs? Is it OK to put it sideways?
"Vertically Horizontal" ?
This is why I just want a soundbar. I have a TX-NR626 Onkyo 7.2 but don't have the room to use speakers as intended. It makes me mad. everyone says "soundbars suck" then say use home theater. I have part of home theater but no room for speakers. Bahhh
Soundbars do suck, compared to a well set up home theater... however, they're amazing compared to no speakers. This video looks to be for those who mix audio - they have space for speakers and don't use soundbars. In the real world use what works best for you.
Mount it on the wall
Good information, what if you have your speakers mounted front and high firing angled at the listener? Will that cause the phase issues as well?
I guess the demo kind of shows it but I'm not quite positive.
Hi, did you ever get an answer to your question elsewhere? I’m in the same boat.
I never got an answer but I did determine that there was a bit of a phase issue. I never was able to get optimal positioning because I have 3 computer monitors and the speakers would block both outer screens. I had to give up because I didn't have a wide enough spot to fit everything "neatly".
Yo do they hiss .I really want to buy them but heard that they hiss a lot do they??🤔🤔🤔
Hello. I own LSR305, I'm not exactly a mixer but I just want good sound. My question is: Should I place the speaker closer to the wall or to me? In other words, does the rear of the speaker needs to be closer to the wall? I want a bassier sound.
@@cinema_sound5003 Thank you.
Closer to the wall will give more bass bouncing off the back wall.
There is a couple switces & knobs behind the speakers to adjust the EQ in that regards. Also one for High frequencies (3 positions) that can help tune it too.
Extract from a Sonarworks article:
"Speaker placement should be either close to the front wall, or more than 44 inches (110 cm) away from the front wall, as shown here. Locating the speaker in-between will cause speaker-boundary-interference (SBIR) that can cause low-frequency cancellations."
Check the full article for more infos:
www.sonarworks.com/soundid-reference/blog/learn/set-up-your-studio-monitors-the-right-way/#:~:text=Speaker%20placement%20should%20be%20either,can%20cause%20low-frequency%20cancellations.
@@mistral-unizion-music Oh that was so long ago, I have them properly set up now, still going haha
I really can't see the logic in this?
The key (Craig) is the angle. When sub was closer you got more low end when tweeter was closer you got more high end. To place speaker near ear to have to angle speaker so if it’s sideways you get more of what part of speaker is angled toward you creating inaccurate sound. Thank you Cinema Sound for that. I did not think about that. Very genius of you to share that.
@@cinema_sound5003 but as long as the heads not moving all over the place or horizontally it shouldn't be an issue
@@thabinsummerlin233 see that makes more sense to me but even then long as u not moving all willy nilly ur getting a pretty consistent sound
I set mine on their sides and good lord the sound is horrible.
My question is on 3 way speakers - Can they be set at a forward tilt ?
Thanks for the wisdom on this -Seriously!
>>>~₩ulfy~~>
Doesn't matter how many "way" the speaker is... what matters if the waveguide orientation.
Sound travels 2 thousands feet per second and sometimes i listen to my speakers standing up and I don't hear a difference. Why don't you mind your own business? .
Loud intro!!!
You never turned it sideways!
@@cinema_sound5003 You know that you demonstrated the same thing. How would a non-professional know that it may not go through a phase of degraded sound when tilted before reaching one of even better quality once completely rotated? You are using this to debunk a common sense idea that both speakers in the cab at ear level are better than just one. You say you are going to show it. And then you just wobble the speaker a couple times. No access to smaller speakers? I don't doubt your conclusion.. It just was not a convincing demo.
@@kahlesjf It's more eveident on the bigger speakers to make ANYONE to hear the difference, because woofers and twitters are more apart from each other.
@@vitaliistep Yes, I watched this again and I better understand his and your point and better hear the effect. I have the 308 Mark II's, and I am very happy with them. When I adjust their position, I make a point to keep the tweeter at ear level. Thanks for your clarification.
phase or not, ok, weird demo of moving a speaker around and not actually turning it sideways but i guess trust everything if its on yorbtorb
thei are speakers...not bazookas LOL
So i guess the thousands of hit records mixed with Ns10s. Etc on there side is wrong huh? Smh...
Relax everyone, Mark sounds like a Classic Troll
or Maybe I AM.....
Lets find out shall we?
Tell me Mark, am I wrong in telling you that any pair of speaker you own are producing massive amounts of Comb Filtering whenever they reproduce Stereo tracks with Mono information coming from both speakers?
They do!
You will get much better Bass reproduction by simply decoding 2 channel stereo into 3 separate tracks and sending it to 3 speakers (Left - Center - Right) Reproducing Mono information in 2 or more locations creates Combing and loss of definition in the mid-bass frequencies
Tell me Mark, does the off axis polar response of your speakers have a greater observed affect than the phase differences we hear when you tilt your speakers off axis to the mic?
Off axis response at higher frequencies can be a HUGE problem when you tilt the speakers back 45 degrees, however, you can get a much wider sweet spot by doing so
In fact, much (but not all) of a cheap plastic or metal tweeters horrible sound character can be eliminated by simply tilting it back 45 degrees and Re-Equalizing to correct for the off axis rolloff
If you can "hear" the tweeter as well as the music (even with a silk domed Dynaudio), try tilting them back 45 degrees and see if the drivers acoustically disappear, letting you hear only the music and not the driver
One more thing Mark, I may have been building speakers longer that you've been Alive, but tell me......
Which one of us is the Troll?
Be honest now!
I agree that the speakers should not be placed sideways because we can all hear the acoustic image fall apart, but your description of what is happening with the 3-way speaker is confusing at best and I cannot see it helping your case with the mic that close, and using terms like "weird soundingness" instead of discussing off axis response of the drivers and microphone affecting what we hear in addition to (but not the same as) phase related issues due to driver distances
So no, not the same thing
No response?
What a shame, you could have proven beyond all doubt that I was the Troll, but then I haven't even gotten to the good parts....
Of course you realize that phase coherence at the crossover points can only be achieved if you are using either a 1st order Butterworth or a full digital crossover (which one are you using - LOL)
or that you think that a phase problem is causing the sound to change as move the mic from the bass speaker to the midrange and port and then towards the high frequency driver
Try backing the mic up about 15 feet and lets try that again shall we?
Sorry, I just did it for the LuLz
Bullwinkle J SuperTroll
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA OMG IS THIS VIDEO A JOKE????
Every credible studio in America has a set of ns10s turned sideways. This is a garbage rule that only applies in theory.
A: That someone is still using NS-10Ms shows you the state of the music industry. B: Refer to A: and note that physics is actual, not theoretical. Listen to the video. You clearly didn't watch it.
The pro audio industry has a lot of ignorance nowadays, that's why beginners spend years breaking through the nonsense of misinformation and myths to finally figure it out and become a real pro