Do I need a GFCI Circuit Breaker for EV Charging?
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- čas přidán 27. 08. 2024
- In this video, Chris installs a new circuit breaker to comply with the 2020 National Electric Code that now requires GFCI protection for 250-volt outlets, which are typically used for EV charging.
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2020 NEC reference 👉🏻 www.electrical...
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I think viewers should know that most states have actually exempted that part of the 2020 NEC when they adopted it. GFCI is actually not required for 240V outlets in the vast majority of states. Check your local code modifications, each state makes their own modifications to the NEC. Most inspectors will not give you trouble over it. Also many EVSE manufacturers do not recommend using a GFCI outlet due to phantom tripping. The EVSE has built in GFCI, having it in the breaker is redundant. You don't really need it unless you are worried about getting a shock plugging in, just flip the breaker off first if that is the case. I would only recommend putting a GFCI on a 240V outlet outside in the rain, inside a garage really isn't necessary.
Thanks for the info
Speaking of phantom tripping, I have a 110-v outlet in my laboratory equipped with likely a GFCI mechanism. That thing trips itself at least once a day and I have to pinch that tiny button everyday just to use it.
@@linzeng6523 If it trips with nothing plugged in, the outlet is defective and should be replaced. Put in a work order. They go bad after so many years due to power spikes. They had to replace all the GFCI outlets in my building for the same reason, now they work correctly and don't trip.
It's definitely in BS7671 in the UK (at least from 18th Edition, Amendment 1, regulation 722.531.3.101). Though I thought outlets which are likely to be used outdoors have long needed RCD/GFCI protection, as have cables buried in walls unless otherwise protected. The ideal is for RCBOs (GFCI breakers) to be used for every single circuit in the house. The difference is that a *normal* GFCI/RCD is not sufficient for a charging point, it must be "type B" (type A or type F is acceptable IF the charging outlet has its own RDC-DD, as some do).
Hard-wired charging points are not sufficient for this.
Also ensure the earthing/grounding is adequate as I think most US installations are TN-C-S, and said "shall not be used" (regulation 722.411.4.1) except if one of five (soon to be four) strict conditions are upheld, some of which being unlikely (e.g. a three-phase installation with almost perfectly balanced loads, or an earth electrode with a resistance of around two ohms or less), to mitigate the risk of a broken PEN (protective earth/neutral) conductor.
electrical.theiet.org/bs-7671/updates-to-18th-edition/
The way I read it the code requiring GFCI is only for receptacles and not for hard wired EVSEs.
@8:58, I’m glad you bought and installed a defective GFCI. In this video You were able to contrast the behavior of a defective GFCI versus a normal GFCI. It’s a God-sent bonus.
Thanks! I did a follow-up video to test it via the outlet purely because I didn’t trust it. czcams.com/video/u87ZJY_xhxg/video.html
My first 240v/50 amp circuit installation. I was going to spend $20 on a breaker, but after this, I'm going to spend $120 on that breaker. Thanks for this video so I could do the job correctly!
Glad it was helpful 👍🏻
But I’d recommend you keep the cheap breaker and use a hardwired EVSE. Avoid the plug.
Also, its funny I was just thinking about doing a video about Nema 14-50 vs 6-50 vs hardwired. It is so hard out here in California with all of the regulation. I work with 13 different jurisdictions and it seems like everyone of them interprets the code a little different. Hardwiring the charger to me is the best way to go because it eliminates a connection point (the plug) and every connection point is a potential for failure, however out here some inspectors require stricter regulation on a "permanently " installed charger versus a cord and plug connected device. Lots to think about. You explained everything very clearly. Thanks for the inspiration.
Yeah, I only have to deal with my own, but people flame me for not being correct in their localities.
Im also across many counties in Southern California. How do you keep up with updates fire codes and adopted nec changes.
@albertosotelo663 That’s why electricians are in business. People always point out stuff I’m doing wrong based on current standards.
This is going to be a mess going forward. I install EVSEs as a licensed electrician. First, I do not like to do outlets and try to talk customers into hardwire. In preparation for an outlet install, I asked one of my inspectors about this Code change. At first, he said yes I need a GFCI breaker but after talking with the chief inspector it was determined that our state had not adopted that change yet. On top of that, some manufacturers like Tesla will state in the manual to not use a GFCI breaker probably because of nuisance tripping. The industry has a ways to go with getting it right.
I have used that GFCI breaker with a Tesla UMC and Emporia EVSE. No issues with nuisance tripping.
That is the correct way , As a Houston Tx master electrician HMEL. I aways install a GFCI plus pull permits to cover our company .
So you’ll always include a GFCI breaker if someone asks you to install an EV receptacle?
Not complaining at all. You do a great job with your video’s. I do think it should be mentioned that anyone installing the hardwired Tesla wall charger should NOT install a GFCI breaker because the Tesla unit already includes a built-in GFCI. See Tesla wall charger instructions. Stringing GFCI’s will cause them to trip.
The other point is that no matter how hard you tighten a screw on a wire, the wire will quite often loosen if the wire is wiggled, or after it has been used and the temperature has changed significantly. Once the screw has been torqued down, wiggly it and it will quite often pull out. At least re torque it once or twice after wiggling the wire.
Great tips! I am planning additional videos on these topics. Thanks.
Nothing like a defective safety device… Makes you wonder how many of those have been installed. Great video!
Thanks so much 👍🏻
Hopefully very few (though some cowboys might), as no legitimate electrician would issue an Electrical Installation Certificate if the functioning of the GFCI/RCD has not been properly tested (both the test button, and also a formal test with a professional test device).
@@seprishere This is America, we're full of cowboys (lol). Cowboy electricians here are a real problem. Some jurisdictions are much more strict on the need for licensing than others (usually large metro areas like NYC, LA or Chicago are pretty strict), but in more rural states/counties, you can find all kinds of janky DIY shit.
Great video. Don’t forget to torque your breaker lugs. It’s also a code requirement.
Good point
Great video. I live in California and we havn't adopted the 2020 code. I think we will adopt it later this year under the California title 24 rules. There is a lot of regulation. I wish all of the panels I had to work in were as nice as yours, that is so spacious. Thanks for sharing.
I’m very lucky to have a new house with 200-amp service.
I live in California as well and if I was installing a new charging station, I would put in a new GFCI breaker just knowing it will be applied ot California electric code soon.
Canadian code is a bit looser at the moment, only requiring GFCIs for outdoor plugs. (CEC 2021, 86-306 "Receptacles for electric vehicle supply equipment")
Thanks for the info.
Great info. I always thought I was the only one that got the defective part straight out of the box. Thanks for keeping this real. Cheers
Thanks for the note 👍🏻
One of the functions of the EVSE (or Tesla wall charger or portable EVSE) is that it has a built in EVSE. The EVSE will look for a 20ma imbalance and the spec for a breaker's GFCI is 5ma.
I’ve been told my an electrical engineer, if the device is designed correctly, testing one GFCI shouldn’t cause the upstream one to trip, regardless of spec. Like the GFCI plug on a blow dryer doesn’t trip the GFCI outlet.
@@handydadtv Depends on the EVSE, and the actual trip current imbalance of both the EVSE and the breaker. Many good EVSE's test themselves before operation, and that test can cause the nuisance trip of the main breaker. The EVSE automatically resets when it passes this test (a much different electronic arrangement with a sense circuit circuit, electronics, and relay), whereas the main breaker is physically tripped and must be manually reset. This is different from your hair dryer scenario, where the hair dryer does not perform an automatic test before operation (you have to push the switch). And there are scenarios where pressing the test button on the hair dryer will pop the wall GFCI, and vice-versa.
Also, just for clarification (for your electrical engineer), hair dryers don't necessarily have GFCI's but have an ALCI (Appliance Leakage Circuit Interrupters) or IDCI (Immersion Detection Circuit Interrupter). These are a bit different, but same idea.
The important part is that one of the GFCI's in series will always trip, and the wrinkle with the EVSE's is the automatic test function - and actual trip levels conflicting with upstream breaker GFCI's.
@Bill - thanks for the info!
That is great for hardwired installs but the fact it is a plug located in a damp locations brings 210.8 into play. You never know what might get plugged into it. I personally have had welders, ect. plugged into non GFCI outlets all my life but code does require it.
I just had a 50 amp breaker and dedicated circuit ran to my garage and inspected. The electrician said the juice box has a gfci and doesn't have to add one. The inspector passed it. It is not hard wired
Thanks for sharing.
7:37 best practise is to stand aside from the panel, with your head turned away; and only use your right hand to energize circuits. that way; if there's any fault; it doesn't blow up in your face; and and voltage that may come your way doesn't cross your heart on the way to ground, as it would if you were using your left hand.
Thanks for that advice!
120/240 residetial not much of an issue. Not a lot of fault current available. Normally less than 5,000 amps bolted fault. Very much good advice on panels with more fault current and voltage available. Very large residetial (400A ) , industrial 277/480.
Many states adapted NEC 2020 except for 210.8(a) which requires GFCI for 240V outlet. For example, Georgia amended 210.8(a) as “All 125-volt receptacles installed locations installed through…”. They removed 250-volt terms.
This is because it’s not only unrealistic but also hard to buy 50A gfci breaker for older main panels. Manufacturers do not make 50A gfci breaker for older panel. It’s a Good news.
Thanks for the info
Wow! This video has exactly what i am looking for! Very good one, Thank you. Now i understand why i need a GFCI breaker but a friend of mine who has tesla wall charger does not need one!
Glad it was helpful 👍🏻
In South Africa, we always had (30 years +), WHOLE house ground fault protection standard. All circuits are covered by one central ground fault breaker (25-30mA sensitivity).
Also, plug and light circuits must be separate. Normally 10 amps for lights and 15-20 amps for plugs. Single phase is 230v 50Hz though. We are in Canada for almost a year now, and I still try to get used to the American standard. Also, our SA homes have PVC conduit going down from the attic/ceiling, and normally have single cores running in it. Easy to replace/upgrade/extend, except the part where you have to break open a concrete wall to add another plug point.
Thanks for the info
When gesturing at live wires, even if they are covered by plastic, it best to not actually touch them.
Thanks
The pigtail coils should be straigtened out to minimize inductace in that leg.
Thanks for the tip
One problem is many EVSEs have built in GFCI and protecting a GFCI device with a GFCI breaker causes false tripping. Becoming better to hardwire the EVSE and not need the GFCI breaker. Also not all jurisdictions have not yet adopted 2020 code yet.
Agree ☝🏻
Thanks for this vid.. I’m using a Nema 6-50R in my garage to recharge a solar/battery backup unit & I need to replace the standard 50A breaker to a GFCI breaker. And, yes, the 6-50 only has 2 hots & a ground. So now I know I don’t have to worry about what to do with the middle breaker wire connector.
Which backup did you go with?
@@handydadtv An ECOFLOW Delta Pro
Nicely done video. You did mostly a great job. If I may be allowed, I have a few comments. 1. As others noted, you are only required to do what is the current adopted electrical code, not the current published code. 2. It is obvious that the outlet below the panel was added after the original inspection. If you installed it, surely you got a permit (as you stated would be required) and it was installed, inspected, and approved under the 2017 code. Therefore GFCI was not required. 3. Standard breakers are designed for overcurrent and short circuit. GFCI is not for short circuit as stated in the video. If your two hots went short circuit, the breaker would trip it, not the GFCI. GFCI is for when current goes out and a small amount is going to a grounded object. Like a human standing on concrete with no shoes. It is set to trip at 5 milliamps.
Thanks for the info. When I tested a GFCI trip, it popped the breaker just like a short. You couldn’t tell the difference.
Some internal charging modules insides some EVs can be very finnicky while dealing with GFCIs and make them trip for no good reason. It can be very problematic to find out in the early morning that your vehicle simply did not get any charge overnight and that you are stuck.
I’ve never had that issue, but I really recommend hard-wiring to avoid needing a GFCI.
Thank you for the video. I just ordered one to replace my standard 50A breaker.
Glad I could help
We’re in the process of adding an EV charger circuit from the panel on the back of our house to our garage. We’re debating about the GFCI requirement or hardwiring to avoid the GFCI. However, there seems to be a requirement for hardwired items to have a service disconnect switch within sight of the appliance. So in our case saving the cost of the GFCI breaker is offset by the cost to add a service disconnect.
I prefer hard wiring anyway. Outlets are problematic. Watch this. czcams.com/video/1BnK4a4aVpU/video.html
Changed mine a month ago. Read about nuisance trips with built in GFCI in mobile connector, none yet. The drywall debris in your box still triggers my OCD.
Sorry I got rid of my shop vac when I moved. 🤷🏻♂️
Good stuff. We haven't adopted 2020 NEC yet where I live but it is coming soon.
I didn’t ask my local officials. I was going on the comments from my installation video.
why does Tesla say that it's not required for the wall charger? cancel that you answered the question at the end of the video.
👍🏻
As I recall, a garage outlet that is used for a freezer should not have a gfi due to erratic tripping, which could in loss of freezer contents. Same principle for an EV charger; you could find your car not charged in the morning. Also, I understand that the chargers have their own built in GFI. Having two gfi in the same circuit causes problems.
It has never been a problem for me.
Great video! Best one out of the 10 I've seen.
Thanks so much 😊
If you get the Tesla wall connector you do not need a GFCI in the electrical panel because it is built into the Connector itself. Even the power connector cable, that came will all Teslas until recently, has a GFCI built in. In some states there would still be a requirement for a 240 volt outlet in a garage, whether used for car charging or anything else, to be GFCI protected, but it would provide no additional protection when used with the Tesla wall connector or Tesla charging cable.
You don’t need a GFCI breaker with any hard-wired EVSE.
Excellent video with outstanding safety emphasis. Many thanks.
Thanks so much 😊
Thank you for emphasizing safety in this installation. And correcting the previous video regarding the GFCI . A standard socket can also be used for RVs, welders etc exposed to the elements outside the garage. Just watched a similar EV socket install where the guy made every mistake imaginable, in particular poking around in a live panel with metal fish tape and uninsulated screwdrivers....
However a pro electrician would have tested the GFCI on installation, as well as the resistance of the connections
I feel that a high power 50A circuit, and in particular one that may be used at full power for several hours at a time (much more so than cooker/shower loads) is not something to be attempted by anyone with no electrical experience. Those connections have to be really good to avoid overheating.
Thanks for the feedback. How does a pro electrician test the resistance of the connections?
I have a setup to test the GFCI breaker, but haven’t made that video yet.
@@handydadtv It is worth pointing out how critical good connections are on high currents. At 50A a point resistance of 0.1ohm in a bad connection could dissipate 50x50x0.1 = 250W!
UK perspective. The meter has a low resistance range measuring down to 0.01ohm or better and uses a constant current of 200mA. These days usually combined with insulation resistance and all other needed test measurements in a multi-function meter. The standard test is to short the wires a pair at a time at the final outlet on the socket circuit and measure L-N and L-E from the board. (With the breaker off or the wires disconnected!). As a refinement you can use a breakout plug to 4mm test leads and jumper these to short on the socket itself. Hence testing the resistance of the cable, all intermediate connections, the connections to the final socket AND the condition of the socket outlet contacts. Great to verify an older socket is still safe.
The cable measurements (in particular the insulation resistance) are there to ensure that the cable has not been damaged during or since installation - a bit unlikely in your case.
This does not test the connections at the board but at least these are visible and easily checked, whereas the socket connections may have loosened on screwing into the back box.
South carolina is still on the 2017 NEC. And you are correct those two pole GFCI breakers are super expensive, my sister and her husband got the sticker shock when the two pole 20 amp breaker for the kitchen countertop went bad and they needed a replacement shipped to home depot 😃( they live in a tract home, built in 1995, so it was pre-AFCI, but has 12/3 feeding the outlets, and the top and bottom have the black and red with the tab broken. ) Guessing when the subdivision was built the contractors got paid by the job, and they wanted to complete as many homes as possible in a given time frame, so they were less concerned about the cost of materials.
Yeah they are rewarded for speed, not quality.
Split plugs
@@danlux4954 correct. Many older homes used them in Kitchens. I actually like them, but with the AFCI/GFCI requirements they are from a bygone time. They were actually a very efficient use of material and labor, if you think about it. Of course today we pull 2 runs of 12/2.
Why did you remove the white wire from the receptacle going to busbar and connect it to the breaker?
Wouldn’t the white pigtail coming from the breaker have been connected when you tightened it to the busbar?
A GFCI breaker has a neutral terminal.
Just stumbled on an article (and lost the link) where hard wired chargers have GFCI built in and will trip at 20 ma but no provision for manual testing. I suspect there's built in testing that shows a fault or disables the unit. A breaker with GFCI protection trips at 5 ma. This is how those charges comply with code without the added breaker protection. Guessing the code is different for such devices, but I haven't found it in NEC. They only talk about GFCI protection in general.
Thanks for the info
Yes, those can utilize equipment GFCI classification since it doesn't have a constant live receptacle. That's class C GFCI, with a 20mA rating. So when the EVSE sends out a 20mA signal to ground for its internal test and it's hooked up to a class A GFCI that trips at 5mA, it will trip it.
@@andrewt9204 ... sounds like the solution is to connect the charger to an existing (pre code change) outlet or hardwire it to avoid having the double GFCI issue. Edit: Here's another thought... some inspectors give a nod to using non-GFCI outlets if they are too high to be easily accessible. Prime example is a garage door opener with a ceiling mounted outlet. It sounds as if they are using the same theory as the kitchen outlets that are more than 6 ft from the sink. (no GFCI needed) I suppose a 50 amp outlet could be installed say 7 ft high and the dangling cord would be protected by the charger itself. Do we have a grey area due to distance from a damp floor? NEC doesn't spell this out other that to say it's still in a garage.
@@rupe53 Well, with states on the 2020 code, all receptacles have to be on GFCI, I don't believe there are any exceptions anymore. I think height only affects tamper resistant requirements.
I think the solution now is for EVSE manufacturers to include a dip switch or firmware adjust to disable ground integrity checks, and just keep its GFCI in a normal passive mode. Default setting would be enabled of course in case the EVSE is powered by a non-GFCI circuit.
@@andrewt9204 ... BUT... that would make sense, right? There are already folks saying the GFCI rules for heavy load outlets may go away. It would be interesting to have a crystal ball to see 5-10 years ahead.
You could also put in a gfci disconnect switch
Thanks
I saw some others in here talking about the double GFCI issue. I charge my Tesla in my apartment off a 120v GFCI outlet and it’s tripped a few times randomly in the middle of the night. Wonder if that’s what’s causing it
I have never had that issue, either with a GFCI outlet or this 240v GFCI a breaker. I would try changing the GFCI outlet.
An inductive load can cause "phantom trips". In short yes it might be your problem.
I’ve been charging mine for a month on a 120v GFCI outlet in my garage and haven’t had any issues. You may have other loads running through that breaker, which is causing the tripping. An EV charger (outlet or hardwire) should be on its own breaker.
Great video, was not aware of this, I have two 220 in my garage for charging my EV’s, neither have GFCI, I’m using a plug in JuiceBox, I will need to swap these out, thanks.
Thanks. Glad it was helpful.
In your garage is typically ok - check your local codes. You also are grandfathered - don't have to retrofit things in your house as the requirements change - as they do often. Just for new installs. And in this case, all EVSE's have the GFCI inside the unit, so adding another one in the circuit is typically problematic and can cause false tripping.
Its more important to install a high quality 14-50 outlet (Hubbell) than a gfci breaker. I installed a cheap big box 14-50 outlet and it probably would have burned my house down.
Unfortunately code specifies GFCI, not a quality outlet.
Yeah, I had to replace my old 50 amp with new GFCI Homeline 50A, its very expensive.
I won’t do it again. I’ll go hard-wired in my next house.
I’ve never seen a dryer with a GFCI breaker and they are always right next to a washing machine with water fixtures (“wet area”).
Not wrong. But read the code. I didn’t make it up.
@@handydadtv Yeah, this is the video where you show it. I just think they are being a weirdly selective when they list the areas. I mean, the very first place that came to mind for 220v in a typical household is the dryer and if I can’t rationalize a reason to exclude it I have to wonder how they did. ;)
Hey guys I just installed my 6-50 outlet and outlet is good. Getting 240 across both legs and 110 on each. Gfci breaker in panel as well. My model 3 however gives warning while charging stating charging slowed - poor grid power possible. Anyone every had this issue. Not sure if it's the umc, adopter, panel or outlet. (Voltage is good coming from outlet though) it only charges at 16/32 amps
I’ve never heard of this situation. Sorry.
I was nervous to do this install myself and considered other options. Once I saw my breaker box looked just like yours and I wanted to do the exact same breaker swap, you gave me all the confidence (too much?) to swap it out. Did the job and I’m alive to tell about it! How do I buy you a beer?
Glad you made it! ko-fi.com/handydadtv
Personally, I believe that NEC or some governing body should rule that all EV chargers should be 1) exterior to the home by xx feet for fire safety and 2) all should be hard wired to eliminate that bit of issue.
I agree with #2.
Thank you
My pleasure!
just recently installed an outdoor 14-50 circuit for my welding and the 250-50 GFCI breaker is expensive costing $150 plus tax.
Yeah there’s little demand for those breakers so they are pricey.
Current code is not yet adopted in Wisconsin, so we are all good here with or without it. Even if it was adopted in Wisconsin, I'm grandfathered in with the old code since this is not considered major upgrade work.
Right
Gotta love someone that says you have to do this to be code compliant, but fails to follow code in torquing his in panel connections!
Good one
Is this a sub panel or a main one as i see neutral and ground dont go together in this panel and there is no bonding screw.
I have a whole house generator so this isn’t the first disconnect.
I have run across many of these Square D GFCI breakers that are "defective" most don't "test" like yours, and some don't reliably allow the passage of current, as in they will be functional until they just aren't, without any indication as to why. Not a huge fan of these based on my experiences.
I tested it further, just to be sure czcams.com/video/u87ZJY_xhxg/video.html
Tighten as much as I possibly can. You really should use a torque wrench, because it is possible to strip the threads. In any case, don’t use a powered screwdriver unless it has a calibrated stop.
Thanks
Here is my issue. A Tesla Powerwall Charger does NOT have a Neutral (2 Hoya and 1 Ground)…so how do you install a GFCI Breaker, since the Breaker requires a Neutral??
A 240-volt GFCI breaker does not need a neutral load wire. For example, it can be used to protect a NEMA 6-50 outlet which has no neutral.
I am having nuisance trips at the GFCI 50A breaker in the electric panel. I asked Grizzl-e's manufacturer for suggestions and the reply was to either (a) switch to hardwire or (b) find a 50A breaker with 20mA sensitivity. Does such a breaker exist? Safe? Permissible under NEC?
Go with option 1: hard wire.
I switched from the GFI to a non GFI breaker because the Tesla Mobile adapter has a GFI built-in, it conflicts with the breaker and the charging stops intermittently.
Others have said the same but I never have that issue with my SquareD breaker.
What about of car handbooks that said “ GFCI are not recomended in installations” They burn the neutral and trip the breaker by itself. Also make no sense, 240v don’t need the neutral. So Didn’t work on a EV charger installation
That’s why I recommend a hard wired charger.
Problem is that I can't find a GE 50 amp gfci breaker without breaking the bank. Any help where to get one?
Avoid the issue and hard-wire the EVSE.
Does your Tesla charger not have a built-in GFCI? I'm looking into installing a NEMA 14-50 outlet now and have to add add the GFCI breaker because of code. But I've heard that the redundant GFCIs between the breaker and the built-in GFCI in EVSEs result in nuisance tripping.
Do you know of any EVSEs that don't have their own built-in GFCIs?
EVSEs all have internal GFCIs. The reason for a GFCI breaker is to prevent shocks at the outlet when nothing is connected. It’s just like your bathroom has a GFCI outlet but the blow dryer also has a GFCI cord.
You can avoid the extra expense by using a hard wired EVSE.
@@handydadtv Thanks for the reply. I'm not worried about the expense, but whether or not the double GFCI setup will result in nuisance tripping. This seems to be an issue with most EVSEs. Does the Tesla charger you showed in your video not have this problem?
@TheBQ92 I’ve only used two plug-in EVSEs (Tesla and Emporia) and I never had nuisance tripping with either one.
I'm installing a hard wired charger (40 amp Juicebox) and was planning on a regular breaker. I came across your video and gave this a second thought. I noticed the edit at the end of your videos referring to GFCI not being necessary for a hard wired charger. Is this just per code, or is there no point to using a GFCI on a hard wired charger? I get that without the outlet, there is less chance for a problem, but is there still a safety advantage in using a GFCI for a hard wired charger? Can a ground happen at the charger itself? For example, if the vehicle is outdoors and it is raining, could a dangerous ground occur when the charger is plugged into the car? I would love to save over $100 on a breaker, but would rather be safe.
You do not need (or want) a GFCI breaker for a hard wired EVSE. Save your money.
Who is the manufacturer of the breaker that you are using in the pod cast?
I am using copper 6/3 and Sq. D Schneider Panel. This is for an EV car charger. Looking for Qo 50 amp breaker with 3 conductor connection GFCI BREAKER . Matching a 1450 enema outlet by Leviton.
Do you have any information that might help
This was a Square D panel.
Does it matter which breaker to get depening on the pannels brand?Electrician Told me it is impossible to find a 50 amp gfci for my pannel.
He would know. It’s more important to get the correct brand and type of breaker than to get GFCI.
I'd like to know the voltage drop between the breaker box and the 240 volt receptacle when the car is on full charge. The kind of measurement that would be made using a hand DVM. There may also be a way to get the car to display all kinds of charging and electrical measurements. Another possibility is the raw data can be downloaded to a calculating application to give all kinds of statistics and graphs. The charging system likely has sense wires to the A.C. plug or very close to it for checking and possibly even logging the wall socket voltage.
Typically home A.C. circuits run way below their circuit breaker trip currents and for the occasional high load like running an electric lawnmower we don't worry about voltage drop and power loss, but a Tesla has labeled on its in car charger as 48A. Which is a substantial high load possibly over six hours. It might be worth the effort and expense in a new installation to pay for higher capacity lower power loss wires then simply sizing them for occasional maximum load as is the common practice.
The in car Tesla charger senses the charging type as its own home charger hardwired or through is mobil connect to a 240 volt receptacle and many others. For some unknown reason the Tesla mobil connector is capped at 32A and will not pull the in car chargers maximum 48A through a 50A socket. The advantage of 50A outlet of course is it is universal for any BEV. The disadvantage is Tesla's in car charger, likely software changeable, does not run its maximum 48A capacity except with its own hardwired charger connection system.
The UMC’s 32-amp max charge rate is because of the lightweight cord. Higher charge rates require thicker cords.
I personally have no issue charging with 32 amps, it’s plenty to recharge overnight, and I like the lighter cord because it puts less strain on the charging port.
Another reason to hardwire the wall charger (which provides GFCI protection itself) instead of using it with the outlet.
Yes
Thanks for the video! Now that you've had your Tesla for a while, I'm curious if you have an idea of how much your electric costs for the car are on a monthly basis.
It costs me 3 cents per mile compared to 11 cents for my wife’s Lexus.
This would also depended if you had Solar panels, then that number would be folded into the cost and payback of your system, if your system produces 100% of home and EV usage it’s a free after payback. My payback with two EV’s was reduced to 3.5 years from almost 5 years, granted I’m in California and the cost of electricity and gas is the highest in the nation.
For my hyundai Kona my costs are a quarter compared to my Honda Accord 1.5l. Well worth it to drive a fun, and much quicker car. Also, no oil, coolant or any other liquids. And barely ever change the brake pads. There are tons if free chargers all over town still. If you're on the fence, go drive one and that will help you decide.
Common question... Teslas run around 250-300Wh/mile, so say 1000 miles/month (12k/yr), and use 300Wh worst-case, that is 300KWH per month... add 5-10% for charging inefficiency, 330KWH.
Now just multiply by your electricity cost, that gives you the cost per month.
For US avg 13.5c/kwh, that is
Why the rv pedestals in rv parks are not gfci?
I doubt the 240v outlet is GFCI.
Thanks for sharing, i am about to install two 50 amps receptacles one inside the garage and one outside. I am worry to get electrocuted since one 50 amps receptacle in outdoor and doesn't have gfci. There are none 50 amps receptacles are GFCI. Just wondering why they don't made it like the 110v. Totally agree this type of breaker is good to have.
Thanks for sharing
So my garage is not below grade, it’s level with slab, so this has to be upgraded. Also prior to 2020 only work done after have to be brought up to current code.
Right
Thank goodness my state is still using the 2017 code. No way I'm putting a GFCI on my 240v EV charging outlet.
Completely understand. It might get flagged when you sell the house, just like a bathroom without GFCI, but you can deal with it then.
Would level 1 charging require a GFCI outlet ?
No. In fact, many plugin chargers say NOT to use a GFCI outlet.
How much did it cost gfci breaker? I just had mine replace electrician charge me $285 for part, is that too much?
Not bad if that’s the installed price. If not, he’s definitely marking it up.
I paid $150 for mine in 2021 (SquareD type HOM), but now it’s under $100. Find your type here: handydad.tv/gfcib
Does anyone know if this is required in Florida? I had an electrician install a 14-50 plug in my garage and there is no test option on the breaker. Is this to code? im getting conflicting results when searching.
You HIRED an electrician who was supposedly trained and certified to qualify for a license. You paid him to know your local codes so you shouldn’t need to do this kind of research.
My charger (Electrify America) has a built in GFCI. So that would conflict if we also had a GFCI in the panel. For us to be compliant, we’d need to hardwire the charger instead of having the plug. We wanted the plug for convenience should we ever move. So the choice was either don’t be compliant or don’t have a plug. It was clear when we spoke to the MFR they really didn’t us working off a plug. I don’t think the charger folks should advertise the plug so much since it really poses a lot of challenges given the electrical code.
The double GFCI “issue” many be a myth. My chargers have never popped the breaker.
@@handydadtv I have run into the double GFCI problem, and especially in instances where the manufacturer (like most EV manufacturers, including Tesla) recommends to not use a gfci, you may as well listen to the authority having jurisdiction and save the $ as well as the headache because you will inevitably get a faulty breaker.
@@handydadtv Not a myth - depends on the EVSE.
I’ve only tested the Tesla UMC and the Emporia; neither were affected by the GFCI breaker. I also used the Tesla UMC in a 120v GFCI outlet and it had no issue.
@@handydadtv again, why shovel out the money and risk it when the manufacturer (Authority Having Jurisdiction) says not to.
My charger (hardwired) has GFCI protection built in.
They all do. But the outlet is a shock hazard when nothing is plugged in.
Good decision to hardwire.
@@handydadtv Ah, okay, thanks. I heard having a GFCI breaker and GFCI in the charger can cause nuisance breaks. Anyway, the decision to hardwire was because we have no garage and a driveway 40-plus feet from the house, so we had to go underground.
As an Australian who has GFCI protection on every circuit apart from the oven and electric hot plates, i still cant understand why U.S systems dont use GFCI breakers on all circuits
Good question
Nuisance tripping and the cost.
@@balexan530 had full gfci protection on the house for 27 years, never once tripped on a non fault.
We have required some circuits to be GFCI protected since 1971. Over the years we have added more and more "locations" that must be protected. Why we haven't simply mandated it for all circuits, I do not know, but I suspect it's all about money. Basically, if it were up to the engineers and safety experts on the code panel, they would have done it a long time ago. I am pretty sure greed has gotten in the way. Building contractors don't want to spend a couple hundred extra bucks for safety. They pinch every possible penny, even if the home is very expensive.
@@farnzy2011 I tripped a plug in GFCI with just the RF of a ham radio.
Great job! One question, is it not necessary to torque the lugs down been told it’s very important?
Yes it is. See this czcams.com/video/1BnK4a4aVpU/video.html
thank you.
My pleasure
Hi, I watch a lot of you tube and recently discovered that all fuses have a torque pressure that the cables have to be tightened to shown on the side of the fuse, on most fuses it is 36 pd of torque but the person doing the electrics used a screwdriver that went up to this torque and applied much more pressure than you did. Are you aware of this requirement?
Yes but most people don’t own a torque screwdriver. So I just go as tight as I can. Good idea for another video though. 👍🏻
You are not wrong they do come with a torque rating but you will find very few electricians using a torque screwdriver. This is an observation from someone who has spent 36 years in the electrical field. That said I have stripped 50 amp breaker screws out in my younger years.
If I have a 6-50 receptacle should I just remove that curly white pigtail?
You still need to connect the curly wire from the breaker to the neutral bar; you just won’t have a neutral wired to the breaker.
If i have space in my breaker to install a 50amp like you did, does that mean it’s ok to add it? I was reading about overloading my breaker box which could cause fires? I just took delivery of my tesla and using the 12amp normal outlet sucks! Haha! Keep up the great work!
There are tons of load calculation videos to help you figure that out.
Rent it. When you need special tools, you can rent them. Why not rent an electrical guy for an hour or two and have them make the work easier for you.
A job with paper and pencil, no shovel, no insulation in the attic, they will love your job.
Hi Chris, I’m in NJ and we sometimes have power outages. I have a whole house standby generator (20kWh generac) would I be able to charge level 2 in a power outage with my generator? If not at same 48-50amp perhaps lower at 26-30 amp? TIA
You can definitely charge with that generator, but as you said, you’ll probably want a lower rate of charge.
Sir can you help me with a question, I'm trying to charge my tesla on a 110 my breaker is a 20amp it keeps tripping from what I can find it's a square d cafci white button could that be why I can't charge? No matter why I set the charge to it pops
Try a different outlet/circuit.
But I've seen other videos and guides and manuals from various EVSE saying that it has built in GCFI and if the breaker is a GCFI breaker, it'll cause problems! They say not to use a GCFI breaker because it has one built in to the EVSE!
You still need to protect the outlet when nothing is plugged in. Also, there’s no test button on the EVSE so how do you know it works?
I’ve used two plug-in EVSEs and neither had an issue with the GFCI breaker.
@@handydadtv No idea. From the manual of the ChargePoint Home Flex, which is a very popular and highly regarded as one of the top home EVSEs out there, it says this: "Ensure the electrical panel supports a 240 V dedicated circuit with a new, dedicated, non-GFCI two-pole circuit breaker, in accordance with local codes and ordinances. Note: If local codes require a GFCI breaker for plug-in installation, ChargePoint recommends a hardwire installation. We do not recommend using a GFCI breaker as the Home Flex has charging circuit interrupting device (CCID) protection. Using a GFCI breaker in the panel can cause nuisance tripping. "
Good to know. I wholeheartedly agree that hard-wiring is the better approach to avoid the risk.
But they still provide no way to test the internal GFCI…
How can I find out if my state or county has adopted these or other new codes?
Ask the local construction office which version of NEC they follow.
Gfci breakers in rv park pedestals
Unlikely because it’s a relatively new regulation and it’s expensive.
Thank you, sir. I was thinking it might be code. Glad you cleared it up. Cheers!!
Happy to help
If it was installed before the 2020 code was adopted (maybe it wasn't even adopted) by your local muckymucks at the city council, then it IS COMPLIANT. (or...grandfathered in...as most people say). I do suspect that this one will either not be fully enforced by many municipalities,...or even thrown out by some legislatures when they adopt the "rest" of the code. Let's wait and see.
You are right that codes are mainly for new construction. But non-compliant safety items may get flagged in a home inspection when you go to sell the house, just like missing GFCI outlets in a bathroom. That’s when you’d need to bring it up to code, or negotiate it so the buyer takes on the responsibility.
@@handydadtv I only know one municipality where they will make you change certain plugs to GFCI's...if they were already existing. I have routinely (while an existing older home is in escrow) had to call the city head inspector while a real estate agent, and also a rent-a-inspector are present,...to inform the rent-a-inspector that in this particular older house,..most gfci rules he is talking about did not exist when the house was built...and therefore should have been mentioned only as a courtesy and not as a code violation. At that point, it is the responsibilty of the new owner to do it...or not. Sure, it's super easy to do, even for a homeowner...if they want. This is not just a problem with elec. and rent-a-inspectors,....but I could go on and on about plumbing and hvac also.
Good to know. Thanks.
You still not in compliance with the code, because you didn’t use a torque screwdriver.
😊
I showed that in this video:
czcams.com/video/1BnK4a4aVpU/video.html
What state though
NEC is the National Electric Code, but each state, and possibly each municipality, may not adopt the latest version at the same time.
Avoid the whole issue by installing a hard wired EVSE.
Follow the money 😂 $100 more. That's how lobbyists work!
Not selling too many of them.
i am lucky my city uses 2019 book
It’s good that you know that!
Thanks the for info!
Glad it was helpful 👍🏻
There should NEVER be a white colored wire energized from a breaker, the only legal energized white, or neutral wire is in the event of a reverse fed light switch when home run goes to light location first. And only in residential i belive, but great video! Very informative and well thought through.
Thanks
Have anyone had this issue when using GFCI breaker the internal breaker of evse tripped? I had to reset breaker of the charger for it to work again
I don’t have this problem, but many have said double GFCIs can be an issue (in other words, the self test of the charger can trip the breaker). If that happens, you have no choice but to use a non-GFCI breaker (you can always put it back before you sell the house).
@@handydadtv I have a Grizzl-e Chargeradn the instructions state NOT to install a GFCI upstream, as they have built-in GFCI.
Has your Tesla ever tripped the breaker gfci breaker?
Never
I tested with an Emporia EVSE too. That one never tripped the breaker either.
I hate GFCI’s. I’ve never seen one do any protection, but I’ve seen em trip for unknown reasons over and over.
Perhaps that’s why you’re still alive.
This has been researched extensively. Electrocution deaths (in a residential setting) have declined SIGNIFICANTLY since GFCI's were introduced in the early 1970's. To be fair, it is probably due to a number of factors.
1) The NEC did not require houses to be grounded until the early 1960's (and some jurisdictions lagged behind that timeline). Modern grounding standards have helped some, no doubt.
2) Stricter safety standards on basic equipment/devices we all use. In the "old days" devices/appliances were not grounded and often made of metal. If there was any internal fault with such a device, well, it was probably all she wrote for you, especially if you were outside in a wet environment, standing on cement, or barefoot, etc.. Remember it only takes about 40mA to kill a full grown adult (and around 10mA for children).
3) GFCI's
Was I being taken for a ride with a electrician trying to charge me $300 for a GFCI for EV Charger?
Not sure what your brand costs, but I’d expect an electrician to mark up their costs.
The Tesla mobile connector will trip the gfci all the time once it starts charging
Completely false. I use the Tesla UMC and Emporia EVSE with a GFCI breaker and neither one has tripped the breaker.
@@handydadtv I used to use the umc on 120v gfci and it would trip the outlet every time. I know that the umc does a Test to check a good ground and this looks like a ground fault to the outlet. Perhaps there’s a difference between gfi on outlet vs on breaker.
Before I installed the 14-50, I also used the UMC with a 120-volt GFCI outlet and had no issues. Weird that yours trips it.
I have always preferred to have GFI receptacles over a GFI at the breaker box, because a GFI can be subject to tripping and the GFI receptacle indicates it has been tripped and can be reset at the receptacle. I don't like the practice of stringing other receptacles from a GFI receptacle. It can be nearly impossible to find the GFI receptacle when it was tripped by a down stream receptacle. Also GFI receptacle have a much lower non returned trip current than a GFI breaker, meaning they should be better at protecting humans connecting cords to them and the device then a circuit breaker GFI, but also much more prone to phantom tripping from current loss in long wire runs downstream from the GFI receptacle. I had to dry out an outside downstream receptacle from an inside bathroom GFI receptacle because it wouldn't allow resetting the inside GFI receptacle when it was moist. At least that's how it behaved because I've done this procedure about three times now. Note: the outside receptacle didn't appear moist I assumed the extension cord plugged into it had water follow into the receptacle.
I hear you! My brand new house had one GFCI receptacle protecting multiple bathrooms! Watch this czcams.com/video/dbmRETinw0A/video.html
EVSE standard includes GFCI protection. Not sure how much the double GFCI will help you.
The GFCI breaker protects a child who inserts a screwdriver while playing in the garage.
The EVSE has a GFCI to protect people who fail to install a GFCI breaker.
Just like blow dryers that have GFCI plugs.