@@gokublack8342 Exactly. Melding synthetics and organics via a huge magic beam is a shortcut to true understanding between synthetics and organics. This is why the other two endings are preferable.
In university I took a "philosophy in science fiction" elective course for fun. Early on the professor gave us an assignment to make a philosophical write up about any piece of sci-fi that we wish. I wrote up a 6 page essay about mass effect, targeting specifically legion and the geth as I find the philosophical conversations with legion especially interesting. In the feedback, the professor mentioned that many of the students wrote about mass effect and that he "definitely needs to give it a try now." Glad to know I helped bring a new fan to the series :D
I do hope he also takes a liking to how geth society operates. A thousand eyes and minds connected to as one, yet each sees a problem at a different angle, creating their conclusions before working with each other to reach a consensus they all can mutually agree on. For humanity/organics, this is impossible as they are fundamentally self serving. For the geth, they can think and discuss amongst themselves fast enough with a completely different way of thinking thats hard for us to wrap our minds around. Yet it works for them due to their machine nature.
The Geth feel like the most realistic version of an AI in our lifetimes. That'd be an interesting experiment. Hundreds of self-learning programs cooperating with one another. An experiment for a gestalt intelligence.
I played the game many times and only last night, I got this conversation. I usually stop after the Suicide Mission and with him being the last companion and me not wanting to lose anyone, I've been missing this one and the conversation before this.
@@PerfectAlibi1 but they probably building round a sun for power cus think about the power requirements to upload and maintain all geth once they get independent thought
pedantry. and if they didnt go with dyson spheres, vast majority of players would not know what the fuck it is. the purpose of communication, and even more specifically analogies is to be understood.
Actually, Legion knew that Dyson Spheres were a far more ubiquitous term than a Matrioshka Brain. Had Shepard been a scientist or AI theorist, Legion likely would've specified a Matrioshka Brain, or some other form of AI-processing theory that could've emerged between present day and the setting of Mass Effect, in the late 22nd century.
@James Furey the Geth deny having emotions, but admittedly you are right, they definitely have some kind of emotional link. AI in reality is more like WAU from SOMA, its goal, rather than "improve self", is "preserve humanity", and its frantic attempts to do exactly that are what cause all the violence in the game. Same for PAMA from MCSM. "Make it useful."
I forgot what it was but there was some kind of series where an explorer met the end of AI civilization, where they do that exact objective and join into a Dyson Sphere becoming a single entity floating in the universe.
In hindsight it's a little fascinating how in ME3 some of what Javik says when talking about machines (after Legion comes aboard) is almost exactly the same as what Legion says here. Aside from how Javik thinks all synthetics should be destroyed, maybe Javik and Legion's views aren't too dissimilar. A shame the two never properly interact (iirc).
"The process is as important as the result." Proof that the Geth had morals and ethics. They didn't want a short cut and especially not one that was given by the devil (Reapers).
Legion even said they lost a lot of Geth programs when they couldn't leave the megastructure fast enough, which he said narrowed their perspective (since Geth operate under swarm intelligence; the more of them present, the smarter they are) and their 'instinct' for survival took priority; causing them to go to the Reapers for help
That's super depressing. I really wanted to see the completed megastructure, and discover what the Geth would become once they achieved their goal of program unification.
No they didn't, they mentioned that the sphere was near completion but the Quarians destroyed it. Which is why they were desprete enough to side with the reapers. Its not mentioned whether uploading the reaper code made them individuals. All we know is that they grew in intelligence beyond normal capacity. The only Geth that we know achieved individuality was Legion. I guess having the same programs stored in one device for so long caused them to merge into a single personality.
Legion is a unique purpose made anomaly by the geth, as he was meant to be the closest thing the Geth could at the time, make as a unique individual, it would make sense that Legion would over time adapt and slowly tweak and evolve to become more separated from the main geth intelligence, hell it's stated if Legion was killed by his back ups that Legion purposely kept data, *secrets* to himself, not even the Geth or his back ups were privy to this data. So it would make sense that the reaper code would only expedite this process for the Geth unit that was supposed to be an individual.
A dyson sphere is a theoretical concept that you can build a hollow sphere around a star and thus harvest all the radiated energy via either solar panels or as simple heat energy. The concept is outdated though as the amount of resourced required would literally be astronomical, youd need to completely use up the material of several solar systems worth of planets (the entire planets) just for one of those things.
@@builder396 it doesn't have to be a literal sphere that encapsules a star, it could be millions or more solar panels that collect energy. Kurzgesagt had a nice video about it.
@@killermiller851 Isnt that a Dyson shell though? Besides, part of the Dyson sphere idea is that you can also live on the structure, not just have it collect energy.
Ashton Peterson if i remember correctly you need to do his loyalty mission ,talk to him (you need to go to the collector base ditectly after your crew got captured or they are doomed) talk to him again after another mission/assingement (something with a victory screen basically could be landing on omega/tuchanka/citadel too it is funny how they ignore legion on the citadel btw) and do another mission and talk to him again.
The problem is that, if you played it as I did the first time, you probably adquired Reaper's IFF (and Legion) as your last mission. Once you have the Reaper IFF, you can do only one more mission before Collectors attack the Normandy. Hence, in order to save your crew, you have to reach the end of the game before actually have a opportunity to speak with Legion.
Then Mass Effect 3 came and throw all this idea in trash. In interview one of the writers to want avoid cliche geth pinochio who wants to become humans, and ME3 writers completly destroy legion character.
The process is as important as the result. Words to live by.
The original Mass Effect trilogy is full of great dialogue like that.
"The process is as important as the result". I wonder if this is BioWare's way of warning us that the ending might not be that great lol
Why Synthesis is a bad ending
@@gokublack8342 It's not.
@@gokublack8342 Exactly. Melding synthetics and organics via a huge magic beam is a shortcut to true understanding between synthetics and organics.
This is why the other two endings are preferable.
In university I took a "philosophy in science fiction" elective course for fun. Early on the professor gave us an assignment to make a philosophical write up about any piece of sci-fi that we wish. I wrote up a 6 page essay about mass effect, targeting specifically legion and the geth as I find the philosophical conversations with legion especially interesting. In the feedback, the professor mentioned that many of the students wrote about mass effect and that he "definitely needs to give it a try now." Glad to know I helped bring a new fan to the series :D
The Geth, the Genophage, and Kotor 2’s perspective of the force-user Dogma are goldmines for this sort of thing.
Was the class good? That seems like something I would love
Did the class cover Babylon 5 at all?
I do hope he also takes a liking to how geth society operates. A thousand eyes and minds connected to as one, yet each sees a problem at a different angle, creating their conclusions before working with each other to reach a consensus they all can mutually agree on. For humanity/organics, this is impossible as they are fundamentally self serving.
For the geth, they can think and discuss amongst themselves fast enough with a completely different way of thinking thats hard for us to wrap our minds around. Yet it works for them due to their machine nature.
Sad that most other classes in high school aren't like that
"We are created life. We *are* a philosophical issue"
“Does this unit have a soul?”
"our 'gods' abandoned us"
Damn. That's...
Vital memory banks uploaded to the extranet. Acceptable. Let organics know our goal. We mean no harm.
Legion: The closest analogue you have is the Human Instrumentality Project from the anime Neon Genesis Evangelion.
I knew it.
It isnt, in popular fiction perhaps but not in philosophical concept.
This why we all love Legion, he's sweat and is honest about their mistakes.
Nah
How is a machine sweat?
Wesker's voice coming from Legion is very relaxing. this character gets me all emotional
"Shepard-Commander, you will GIVE me an EGG."
WHAT?
NO FUCKING WAY
The geth were what made mass effect so magical
When hard sci fi becomes magical amirite
@@iamlordstarbuilder5595 Mass Effect is NOT hard sci-fi
@@MAL1GNANT it's harder than most other sci fi games
@@iamlordstarbuilder5595 also no.
@@MAL1GNANTthe science around element zero is a little hard.
The Geth feel like the most realistic version of an AI in our lifetimes.
That'd be an interesting experiment. Hundreds of self-learning programs cooperating with one another. An experiment for a gestalt intelligence.
Imagine if Human and Robots in Matrix like this, have a moment of peace and actually listening to each other not kill their ambassador
I played the game many times and only last night, I got this conversation. I usually stop after the Suicide Mission and with him being the last companion and me not wanting to lose anyone, I've been missing this one and the conversation before this.
Me too. I have no new missions to do and I don't know how to get this part of conversation now that I'm done
I love Legion so I try to post everything about him :P
1:08 "A megastructure. The closest analogue you have is a Dyson sphere."
Did he just tell us that the geth created Meridian?
whoaaaaaaaaa! The Geth did use a mass relay as a telescope, remember?
makes perfect sense. They just needed to send software to andromeda and they had a 600 years advantage then.
Grunt? You are genius
Sounded to me more like a matrioshka brain, not a Dysonsphere.
@@PerfectAlibi1 but they probably building round a sun for power cus think about the power requirements to upload and maintain all geth once they get independent thought
The closest analogy is a Matrioshka Brain, like Dyson Spheres, but not one.
I was about to comment the same thing. Glad to see fellow nerds out there.
Im late but i am glad to see this comment
pedantry. and if they didnt go with dyson spheres, vast majority of players would not know what the fuck it is. the purpose of communication, and even more specifically analogies is to be understood.
Actually, Legion knew that Dyson Spheres were a far more ubiquitous term than a Matrioshka Brain. Had Shepard been a scientist or AI theorist, Legion likely would've specified a Matrioshka Brain, or some other form of AI-processing theory that could've emerged between present day and the setting of Mass Effect, in the late 22nd century.
Thanks! I couldn't get this Dialogue, since Legion's Mission was the last before the Suicidal one and after that He spoke with Shepard only ONCE!
"We wish to improve ourselves."
Its how it started in the trek universe too!
“We wish to improve ourselves” one day, and “lower your shields and surrender your ships” the next.
@James Furey the Geth deny having emotions, but admittedly you are right, they definitely have some kind of emotional link. AI in reality is more like WAU from SOMA, its goal, rather than "improve self", is "preserve humanity", and its frantic attempts to do exactly that are what cause all the violence in the game. Same for PAMA from MCSM. "Make it useful."
The Geth instrumentality project
I forgot what it was but there was some kind of series where an explorer met the end of AI civilization, where they do that exact objective and join into a Dyson Sphere becoming a single entity floating in the universe.
In hindsight it's a little fascinating how in ME3 some of what Javik says when talking about machines (after Legion comes aboard) is almost exactly the same as what Legion says here. Aside from how Javik thinks all synthetics should be destroyed, maybe Javik and Legion's views aren't too dissimilar. A shame the two never properly interact (iirc).
"The process is as important as the result." Proof that the Geth had morals and ethics. They didn't want a short cut and especially not one that was given by the devil (Reapers).
... We never actually saw this in ME3.
At all.
It was never mentioned or even shown.
Instead we got the uploaded reaper code thing.
HalfTangible legion mentions the quarians destroyed it, which is what caused them to go to the reapers to survive
In galaxy map, you could see debris of what's going to be a dyson sphere as well.
Legion even said they lost a lot of Geth programs when they couldn't leave the megastructure fast enough, which he said narrowed their perspective (since Geth operate under swarm intelligence; the more of them present, the smarter they are) and their 'instinct' for survival took priority; causing them to go to the Reapers for help
Maybe because the writer and creator of legion wasn't present on ME3.....best explanation.
That's super depressing. I really wanted to see the completed megastructure, and discover what the Geth would become once they achieved their goal of program unification.
the similarities between the geths and the pre-starcraft protoss are astonishing to say at least.
"Shepard Commander, we wish to share the data of Neon Genesis Evangelion"
On the next episode of Mass Effect: The writers forget all about this and make all geth individuals.
No they didn't, they mentioned that the sphere was near completion but the Quarians destroyed it. Which is why they were desprete enough to side with the reapers.
Its not mentioned whether uploading the reaper code made them individuals. All we know is that they grew in intelligence beyond normal capacity. The only Geth that we know achieved individuality was Legion. I guess having the same programs stored in one device for so long caused them to merge into a single personality.
Legion is a unique purpose made anomaly by the geth, as he was meant to be the closest thing the Geth could at the time, make as a unique individual, it would make sense that Legion would over time adapt and slowly tweak and evolve to become more separated from the main geth intelligence, hell it's stated if Legion was killed by his back ups that Legion purposely kept data, *secrets* to himself, not even the Geth or his back ups were privy to this data.
So it would make sense that the reaper code would only expedite this process for the Geth unit that was supposed to be an individual.
at the end the geth choose individuality over collectiveness
Legion in 3 conversations became my favourite me char.
I love Legion
1:09 so the geth are building a giant vacuum cleaner lol
A dyson sphere is a theoretical concept that you can build a hollow sphere around a star and thus harvest all the radiated energy via either solar panels or as simple heat energy.
The concept is outdated though as the amount of resourced required would literally be astronomical, youd need to completely use up the material of several solar systems worth of planets (the entire planets) just for one of those things.
@@builder396 it doesn't have to be a literal sphere that encapsules a star, it could be millions or more solar panels that collect energy. Kurzgesagt had a nice video about it.
@@killermiller851 Isnt that a Dyson shell though? Besides, part of the Dyson sphere idea is that you can also live on the structure, not just have it collect energy.
@@builder396 the concept is similar, besides, you can also build massive stations around the star or shell.
So that's how they are going to get all the air out.
Sad they retcon this with Legion
Not really.
@@Igarappappauh, yeah? Him wanting to give the Geth "individuality" with the reaper code goes against everything he says in ME2
@@gerald1495 Things changed.
Unified memories, shared perspectives... wasn't this JC Denton's plan from Deus Ex Invisible War? An universal, all-knowing mind embracing all humans?
A matrioshka brain....I wish I had known this back when I played this. Legion is the best.
Why is everyone talking about Mass Effect and why is the title about Mass Effect when this is a video about Futurama and time travel?
you know what lady i would't listen anyway: his meant for us
i didnt think organics would be interested in philosophy
We do even if we don't realize it.
I have no recollection of this happening. Is this part of a DLC?
Nope you should acquire him as a companion in ME2. I think his dialogue options depend on the choices that you make during the game etc.
Ashton Peterson if i remember correctly you need to do his loyalty mission ,talk to him (you need to go to the collector base ditectly after your crew got captured or they are doomed) talk to him again after another mission/assingement (something with a victory screen basically could be landing on omega/tuchanka/citadel too it is funny how they ignore legion on the citadel btw) and do another mission and talk to him again.
The problem is that, if you played it as I did the first time, you probably adquired Reaper's IFF (and Legion) as your last mission.
Once you have the Reaper IFF, you can do only one more mission before Collectors attack the Normandy.
Hence, in order to save your crew, you have to reach the end of the game before actually have a opportunity to speak with Legion.
@@franpe6522 thank you!
he just explained synthesis
Not quite, synthesis would be this but forced upon life, not life naturally evolving toward it like the geth have in this scenario.
Explain what natural is>@@legendgamer676
Ah yes, the flashlight head that I sold to Cerberus.
Here
Then Mass Effect 3 came and throw all this idea in trash. In interview one of the writers to want avoid cliche geth pinochio who wants to become humans, and ME3 writers completly destroy legion character.
*lowest
how is being created by a being created by god the highest form of existance
You think in such 3-dimensional terms. Linear thinking leads nowhere.
at least no geth ever uttered such a stupid question
they're lost
i didnt think organics would be interested in philosophy