I know that Alastair guy pretty well and can give you some insight to the vault warden lists ;p - Happened to watch the video to see how much i disagreed with you guys on dwarfs, turns out was a reasonable amount haha Durin's folk are the main army i had been taking to all GBHL events in the 2020 season and got me to no.1 in the rankings before the lockdown hit us in the uk. Across 20ish GBHL scoring tournament games the lists have only lost 1 time and drawn 1 time. Ive played it at 450pts - 1250pts and won or been top 3 in most of the GBHL's i have taken them. Usually if i play below 700pts i go kingdom of moria with the first 2 names on the sheet being Balin (he's not great for his points but essential in the list) and Gimli (at low points dont need the 2nd banner and you get more might). 800pts or above khazud dum, first names on the sheet are Durin and Dwarf King/captain (march is a must have). 700-800 both are viable and its a flavour thing. - With regards to vault wardens, i wasn't sure initially either for the same reasons as you guys said. But i thought it sounded funny, looked cool and had a gut feeling it would be better than most people would think. Usually a standard core of a warband in my lists would look something like: - Hero x3/4 vault warden teams x3/4 dwarf warriros with shields - Depending on the list i would also maybe have a couple of bowmen or a banner in there. As a general rule i have not taken any khazard guard in the list, partly because everyone does and that's boring. The main reason however is the shields from the warriors are much better at protecting the flanks of the vault wardens, who will anchor the middle of the warband. If you take Durin your troops are courage 5 anyway so body guard isn't essential either. saving those points also mean you maintain those numbers better. - What you end up having is a core of your battle line that is better at killing than any other in the game (F4, s4, re-rolling 1's + banner), but also will not die to anything but bad luck. Unlike the normal D7 of dwarfs D9 provides a bonus when fighting all troops S3 (6's by 5's) or S4 (6's by 4's). This means you battle line will smash through whatever your opponent has and where the main killing in the list comes from. - Heroes are there to naturalise bad luck with their might or support the flanks to ensure they don't collapse, i am not expecting them to do the kills (they are not that reliable). Also having them on the flank means you can make the most out of heroic combats to get a bunch of dwarf to surround and trap round the enemy line. D8 means S5 heroes that may be scary to your Vault wardens are just glorified captains vs them so they usually go tie up those threats. - One of the advantages of this warband build is each warband can act independently when i may need it to, but also can link up with another warband easily and achieve the same benefits in a kind of super warband when i want them to stay together. I found that against most armies as well i still had a wider frontage because my front line in only 50% 2 deep. The bonus of the teams vs monsters is more useful than i thought it would be. Stopping barges or being able to have 2 tower shields pretty effectively tie up things like sauron, which is great. +1 to wound has also helped take down or just scare those hard to monsters. - Things to watch out for are the likes of bolg, helm or elendil. models with S5 and +1 to wound kill the vault wardens pretty quick. In these situations you have to play smart and tie them up with the normal warriors, get them off the horse (throwing weapon rangers are good for these) and drain there might. Alternatively Floi is pretty funny in these situations when bolg suddenly isn't burly for 3 turns ;) . - I have got some podiums with some other weird dwarf lists this edition, including one with no warrior model above D7. It consisted of iron guard, rangers with throwing weapons and 1/3 rangers with bows and throwing weapons. The 3 balista list didn't really work sadly back in the old edition when i tried it, it may work in good vs evil but if you face blinding light (so many do at 700+) you waste 180pts really and lose a lot of numbers.
The master himself shows up to defend the dwarves! This is an excellent review! Perhaps maybe we can get you on the podcast when we talk about the other dwarven factions!
@@dchobbitleague8191 thanks was actually really interesting to hear what your guys view of dwarfs across the pond was. Also i am always up for talking about my bearded friends and would be more that happy to join in on a podcast about dwarfs, especially if its army of thror as i spent 2019 season with them at events.
@@alastairking9046 When you build your Vault Warden heavy lists do you take 1/3 bows, if not how do you maintain board presence? Also do you use Iron guard within a Vault Warden heavy list?
@@antlion874 I take a smattering of bows only, so at 700pts list, I took the WHW GT I had 3 dwarf bowmen and 3 rangers with bows and throwing axes. Going for 1/3 causes the list to act in a static way and become less durable to actually get the benefit from that many bows. Unless I start going really big points I don't take any of the other elites like iron and khazard guard in my VW heavy lists. This is because you don't have the points to maintain the numbers you will need for the board control. On the flip, if I am going heavy with elite lists like them I wouldn't use VW teams for the same reason. Speaking of board control I find as long as you have a solid model count, for me usually follow the 1model/20pts ratio as a guide, its not much of an issue. The army and dwarfs generally are very good at working in smaller segments due to their high resilience meaning you can reliably tie up an enemy or hold objectives without needing to commit large numbers. You, therefore, can cover much of the battlefield with your units ready to react where needed. I will always take a model with heroic march though as it enables a quick reaction, this can be essential in certain scenarios and matchups to assist. Dwarfs are slow, which means that you actually want to be pro-active and moving constantly to get the right place or achieve the objectives more often than not.
@@alastairking9046 Thanks for the advice. I'm so used to the old rules which didn't have the shooting penalty for moving and have it as a habit to do 1/3 bows. Do you think the following 700pt list would do well? WB1 Durin 3 Vault Warden 4 Dwarf Warrior, Shield 1 Khazad Guard, 2-Handed Hammer WB2 Dwarf King 2 Vault Warden 3 Dwarf Warrior, shield 3 Dwarf Warrior, dwarf bow WB3 King's Champion + Heralds 2 Vault Warden 2 Dwarf Warrior, dwarf bow 3 Dwarf Ranger, bow, Throwing Axe I had a few extra points so upgrade 1 of the dwarf warriors to the Khazad Guard with Hammer.
Just a fun list I wrote some time ago. Really enjoy the podcast 800P Survivors of Laketown, the Iron Hills and Halls of Thranduil (green) - 38 models, 3 bands, 6 bows, 7 riders, 7 Might Thranduil with Additional Elven-made sword, Circlet of Kings, Heavy armor and Elf bow on Elk (General) - 190 5x Mirkwood Cavalry with Shield - 85 1x Mirkwood Sentinel - 25 Dain Ironfoot on War Boar - 160 18x Iron Hills Dwarf, 1x with Banner and Spear, 17x with Spear - 241 Bianca Hilda - 30 11x Lake-Town Militia, 4x with Shield, 3x with Spear and Shield, 4x with Bow - 69
In re: the Witch-King's Heroic tier: in the Armies of the LOTR, he's a HoL in Mordor and Angmar according to the first pages of their armies, while he's a HoV in Barad-Dur. The FAQ for Gondor at War changed the Mordor summary with the new characters to include this (omitted when originally printed).
One note about vault wardens that wasnt really brought up I'd like to ask about: What about using only say 2-3 in a "generic" Balin + Champ + King list? There the teams would be just to give spear supports to the heroes. That extra attack really makes a big difference in winning duels and therefore also keeping the heroes killing and staying alive. The two (maybe three) shield models can be used to screen against shooting and more importantly maybe screen your mainline from getting hurled by a fell beast? And with the D9 they're still pretty damn durable even if they're just mixed into your regular warriors. A lot of people seem to just think about using them as a team but wouldnt using them as I said here be more effective? The spear would likely contribute much more to pay for itself. And the shield can be an extremely durable objective sitter, roadblock, anti-hurl tool or just a regular warrior that is highly unlikely to die unless trapped. It would also give a middle ground between not having them at all or spamming them which seemed to be the focus of the discussion.
Really nice video! One small correction. The khazad guard is actually defence 7 & not 6. So morannon orcs hit them on 6's... Which makes them pretty strong I think (definately when upgraded to hearthguard).
I´ve had some ideas for future episodes: You could make a list building challenge (players ask you to build a list based on their wishes or maybe a game analysis like it´s done in sport channels. To make this possible you could either look at batreps (for example the Ardacon masters) or players could send you a written batrep with pictures. I know that this would take a lot of preperation so it isn´t as easy as "just" talking about a certain topic but I´d really like this if you made this happen.
Thanks for the review guys! I realized my mistake about not having a hero of valour in my Mordor contingent as well. I think what I would change would be replace Guritz, 3 points of Will, and 2 orcs with Mouth of Sauron on horse. Although, I am considering the WK suggestions since you all feel so strongly! And just to defend my Moria choice further in addition to just the cave troll, the goblin archers give me a massive advantage in Clash by Moonlight! Keep up the good work! p.s. I think Devin got this, sorry Mik. Disclaimer I'm not a huge fellbeast guy.
@@SonsOfGondor1 I've done the Druzag beasts thing before and it's fun but kinda different than what I'm trying to go for here. If I were to go that route I wouldn't bother to take Mordor, just Moria and Denizens might work better.
I was sort of assuming that you took the generic wraith, in part, as it was the only March in your list. Overall - I like the flexibility that this list gives you.
Sticking with the theme of the video (and my main army): Khazad-dum: 500pts King's Champion 6x Dwarf Warriors with Shield 4x Dwarf Warriors with Bow 2x Iron Guard Dwarf King w Throw 4x Dwarf Warriors with Shield 4x Dwarf Warriors with Bow (3 w/ 2-handed axes for when you feel brave) 1x Vault Warden Team Ballista Rough Stats: 5 Might (counting the Siege Vet) , 28 Models, 8 Bows, 2 Throws in the Iron Guard. I've run versions of this list before with more throwing weapons on rangers instead of warriors with dwarf bows, but discussing a bit of "bow spam" for Khazad-dum peaked my interest. Thoughts? Also, I don't believe y'all mentioned Mardin. I have used him LOADS with only one successful game where he skewered a Troll Chieftain in one go. I think he's trash; thoughts from the Unexpected Team?
Not enough Ballistas... I quite like that this list with its high defence and pretty good numbers for a D7 army actually has some fighting chance against Rangers Legendary Legion, which is pretty rare to see. I think none of us mentioned Mardin because trolls are generally not great, so there isn't a need to have a problem solver for them.
On bows: I take 33% bows with an even split of Ranger bows and Dwarf bows - against even-Defense, that S3 isn't doing anything for you, so might as well hit more often... and I get to about mid-40 models at 800 pts
I like the 50/50 mix of rangers with bows and warriors as well. I do always try to take the rangers with throwing axes though as it makes them quite effective when combat hits as well.
in your opinion: is khazad dum an underdog/ an underpowered list because of the total lack of all of these: spear support (not talking about mass vault wardens), cavalry, magic, green allies, good warmachines and strong archers? Iron hills have all of the before mentioned except magic. I just dont see any pros for khazad dum. It just seems like a weaker dwarf army because of the *old and therefore unloved army* syndrome to me. Also, is it worth to give up the juicy army bonus to cover some of these weaknesses with yellow allies like a lady of light or a Gildor with 12 fast spear/bow elves?
What do you think about adding in Mardin with Durin for a Khazad-Dum list? Nobody even mentioned him in the podcast, is he even worth it for the 75 points? His profile looks good to me but I could be wrong.
I've been playing Dwarves of Moria for almost 10 years - I think March is critically important and as a result, I take the Moria Expedition every time (Balin might not be quite as killy as Durin, but he can March or call Defense - neither of which you can do with Durin). You also get priority rerolls, which are nice.
@@alastairking9046 Thanks for the correction - forgot he had Defense. Makes him pretty tough for a round (though at the cost of the all-important Might point).
Heard someone (can't remeber who) claim in a recent pocast that Rivendell was not competitive at all. So I have been playing around with Rivendell a bit latly - and had some success with variants of the list below (4 wins 2 losses over the last month). So first of; In your mind is Rivendell competitive (outside of pure knights)? And what do you think of this list below? (I had a couple of knights in with Glorfindel - but have kicked them out for underperforming and relaced them with 4 footmodels) Warband 1 6/15 Glorfindel, Lord of the West with Asfaloth; Armour of Gondolin; 3 High Elf Warrior with Spear; Shield; 3 High Elf Warrior with Elf Bow; ---- Warband 2 6/6 Círdan 3 High Elf Warrior with Spear; Shield; 3 High Elf Warrior with Elf Bow; ---- Warband 3 11/12 Erestor Bilbo Baggins (Old) with The Ring; 1 High Elf Warrior with Banner; Spear; Shield; 7 High Elf Warrior with Spear; Shield; 2 High Elf Warrior ---- Warband 4 8/12 Gildor Inglorion 4 Noldorin Exile with Elf Bow; 4 Noldorin Exile with Throwing daggers; Wood Elf Spear; ---- 800 pts, 35 models
Got a Mordor list I'm hoping to try soon - would love to hear what you guys think: 800pts (44 models, 9 Might, 9 Orc bows): The Witch-King of Angmar on horse with Crown of Morgul, Morgul Blade, and 3M/15W/2F 6 Black Numenoreans 2 Morannon Orcs with shields 4 Morannon Orcs with shields and spears 1 Morannon Orc with shield, spear, and banner Ringwraith on horse with 2M/9W/1F 1 Orc Tracker 3 Morannon Orcs with shields 3 Morannon Orcs with shields and spears 2 Mordor Uruk-Hai with Orc bows and two-handed maces Ringwraith on horse with 2M/9W/1F 1 Orc Tracker 3 Morannon Orcs with shields 3 Morannon Orcs with shields and spears 2 Mordor Uruk-Hai with Orc bows Ringwraith on horse with 2M/9W/1F 1 Orc Tracker 3 Morannon Orcs with shields 3 Morannon Orcs with shields and spears 1 Mordor Uruk-Hai with Orc bow 1 Mordor Uruk-Hai with Orc bow and two-handed mace
In the old edition, I would love playing this. In fact, at the 2017 ETC, Team France played I think more than 9 Ringwraiths between the 4 armies they used and the French meta was at the time full of budget Wraiths. Currently however I look at this and think to myself "cool, but what's the plan against Galadriel?". Normally to beat big heroes, you need a spam of spells. To counter a spam of spells you play smaller heroes, you play Elendil/Glorfindel or you just throw in Galadriel. Sadly Galadriel has virtually no downsides at higher points limits. At 800pts I'd be worried I lack ways to beat Terror and get torn apart by Elendil, Glorfindel and Galadriel whilst my only Heroic Striker is my general.
@@MBSoundDesign A good point - Galadriel LOL will be a tough draw, but with 4 Ringwraiths, she's looking at needing to stop 4 Transfix attempts and if ANY of those go off, she can be charged, knocked down, and killed. Transfix is easy to get off and while she can rely on Fortify Spirit to keep herself in the fight for a while, those 2 dice are going to have a hard time on their own stopping a cast on a 5 or 6. With 10" move on these guys, I can skirmish a bit with her, wearing down her actual Will store or Might and charge in when she's weak. The primary reason I built this list wasn't to fight spell-casters though - mostly it comes down to the theory that most big heroes only have 3 Will, so having 4 Transfix attempts means I can shut almost anyone down and bludgeon them with Morannons...
@@SonsOfGondor1 I understand that, but the flaw I see here is that Transfix doesn't decrease Fight Value or Attacks in the current rules, so she (or any other big hero in fact) is still fighting at F6/A3 with 3 Might. She still outfights everybody in your army except the Heroic Striking Witch King and I'd be surprised if your opponent will just let you get the perfect charge with WK. Depending on the scenario, Galadriel can fortify all of the enemy heroes before you even start casting spells, at which point you'll be hard pressed to do very much at all. Even if you get one or two Transfixes off every turn, you're still not killing F5+ Heroes, because nobody in your army outside of WK can strike and you only have 9 Will on each non-WK. In the current rules, all Transfix does is essentially pauses a Hero from killing and buys you some time to build an advantage over their army or objectives. Only way Transfix reliably removes Heroes is though Bat Swarm or HS (or your own hero with high Fight).
@@SonsOfGondor1 On the other hand, what I love about having multiple wraiths is Black Darts. I've played a 3-wraith 800 point list with a horde of Morannons and Black Numenorians at the start of this year and I was able to reliably take out the likes of Madril or other minor heroes with triple BDs before they ever came close or got to use their Might. At that point, their big heroes were stuck having to burn Might on Heroics, which in turn significantly minimised their efficacy. So if you were to take that approach, you're probably better off dropping 1 of your Wraiths and turning 2 of them into named ones (I like Tainted, Dwimmerlaik, Undying or Shadow Lord here).
Fair points - I'm of the opinion that a Transfixed hero isn't killing stuff, so stalling heroes can be enough to crack the rest of the army. Using Black Darts is risky with the Will we have, but certainly an option.
I love the 3 Ballistas, but if it turns out that's an overkill (surely not!), then I have another list to top it: Balin King's Champion Floi 6x Vault Warden Teams 2x Ballistas 12x Dwarves with Bows 9x Dwarves with Shields 2x Dwarves naked Total: 800 points, 44 models, 12 bows, 2 Ballistas, 6 Might
SonsOfGondor1 I could do that if I wanted to actually play remotely competitive. I was making a joke list really based on their ballista discussion. But, honestly, your idea is good now that Im thinking about it. Might actually be worth taking for a good mix of lols and gameplay.
I'd say Mik would win because he could be sneaky by just casting black dart on Aragorn until he gets 1 wound through and than just run away and win 1-0.
Lol, yeah I could do that, but with so few models on the board and no shooting, I'd expect the game to go through a lot of turns within whatever time limit it has, so think eventually Devin might catch me with his free Heroic Marches. On that note, I'm a big fan of 1-dice Black Darts. Against D7, I kill 22% of the Black Darts (plus Might, so if I want to, it could be one per turn even). Given there aren't that many models on the other side of the table and I do have 34 Will, I think it's a valid way to slightly trim down Devin's forces before combat.
Its funny you mention that because we noticed it too after the podcast. Luckily our advice to change the Ringwraith to the Witch King fixes this problem.
I've not jet finished listening to the episode but one thing you didn't mention in terms of the list from the beginning: You need to change the wraith for a WK/Mouth of Sauron because a wraith is only fortitude and in this yellow alliance you have to take a hero of valour
Actually this was something we forgot to mention and thought about once we were done filming haha. Fortunately our advice fixes this problem as you mentioned
28:00 if you wish to skip the Mordor/Moria list discussion and get straight into the Khazad Dum one
We will be adding timestamps to all future videos so that you can skip right to the topic
I know that Alastair guy pretty well and can give you some insight to the vault warden lists ;p
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Happened to watch the video to see how much i disagreed with you guys on dwarfs, turns out was a reasonable amount haha
Durin's folk are the main army i had been taking to all GBHL events in the 2020 season and got me to no.1 in the rankings before the lockdown hit us in the uk. Across 20ish GBHL scoring tournament games the lists have only lost 1 time and drawn 1 time. Ive played it at 450pts - 1250pts and won or been top 3 in most of the GBHL's i have taken them.
Usually if i play below 700pts i go kingdom of moria with the first 2 names on the sheet being Balin (he's not great for his points but essential in the list) and Gimli (at low points dont need the 2nd banner and you get more might). 800pts or above khazud dum, first names on the sheet are Durin and Dwarf King/captain (march is a must have). 700-800 both are viable and its a flavour thing.
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With regards to vault wardens, i wasn't sure initially either for the same reasons as you guys said. But i thought it sounded funny, looked cool and had a gut feeling it would be better than most people would think. Usually a standard core of a warband in my lists would look something like:
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Hero
x3/4 vault warden teams
x3/4 dwarf warriros with shields
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Depending on the list i would also maybe have a couple of bowmen or a banner in there. As a general rule i have not taken any khazard guard in the list, partly because everyone does and that's boring. The main reason however is the shields from the warriors are much better at protecting the flanks of the vault wardens, who will anchor the middle of the warband. If you take Durin your troops are courage 5 anyway so body guard isn't essential either. saving those points also mean you maintain those numbers better.
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What you end up having is a core of your battle line that is better at killing than any other in the game (F4, s4, re-rolling 1's + banner), but also will not die to anything but bad luck. Unlike the normal D7 of dwarfs D9 provides a bonus when fighting all troops S3 (6's by 5's) or S4 (6's by 4's). This means you battle line will smash through whatever your opponent has and where the main killing in the list comes from.
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Heroes are there to naturalise bad luck with their might or support the flanks to ensure they don't collapse, i am not expecting them to do the kills (they are not that reliable). Also having them on the flank means you can make the most out of heroic combats to get a bunch of dwarf to surround and trap round the enemy line. D8 means S5 heroes that may be scary to your Vault wardens are just glorified captains vs them so they usually go tie up those threats.
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One of the advantages of this warband build is each warband can act independently when i may need it to, but also can link up with another warband easily and achieve the same benefits in a kind of super warband when i want them to stay together. I found that against most armies as well i still had a wider frontage because my front line in only 50% 2 deep.
The bonus of the teams vs monsters is more useful than i thought it would be. Stopping barges or being able to have 2 tower shields pretty effectively tie up things like sauron, which is great. +1 to wound has also helped take down or just scare those hard to monsters.
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Things to watch out for are the likes of bolg, helm or elendil. models with S5 and +1 to wound kill the vault wardens pretty quick. In these situations you have to play smart and tie them up with the normal warriors, get them off the horse (throwing weapon rangers are good for these) and drain there might. Alternatively Floi is pretty funny in these situations when bolg suddenly isn't burly for 3 turns ;) .
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I have got some podiums with some other weird dwarf lists this edition, including one with no warrior model above D7. It consisted of iron guard, rangers with throwing weapons and 1/3 rangers with bows and throwing weapons. The 3 balista list didn't really work sadly back in the old edition when i tried it, it may work in good vs evil but if you face blinding light (so many do at 700+) you waste 180pts really and lose a lot of numbers.
The master himself shows up to defend the dwarves! This is an excellent review! Perhaps maybe we can get you on the podcast when we talk about the other dwarven factions!
@@dchobbitleague8191 thanks was actually really interesting to hear what your guys view of dwarfs across the pond was. Also i am always up for talking about my bearded friends and would be more that happy to join in on a podcast about dwarfs, especially if its army of thror as i spent 2019 season with them at events.
@@alastairking9046 When you build your Vault Warden heavy lists do you take 1/3 bows, if not how do you maintain board presence? Also do you use Iron guard within a Vault Warden heavy list?
@@antlion874 I take a smattering of bows only, so at 700pts list, I took the WHW GT I had 3 dwarf bowmen and 3 rangers with bows and throwing axes. Going for 1/3 causes the list to act in a static way and become less durable to actually get the benefit from that many bows.
Unless I start going really big points I don't take any of the other elites like iron and khazard guard in my VW heavy lists. This is because you don't have the points to maintain the numbers you will need for the board control. On the flip, if I am going heavy with elite lists like them I wouldn't use VW teams for the same reason.
Speaking of board control I find as long as you have a solid model count, for me usually follow the 1model/20pts ratio as a guide, its not much of an issue. The army and dwarfs generally are very good at working in smaller segments due to their high resilience meaning you can reliably tie up an enemy or hold objectives without needing to commit large numbers. You, therefore, can cover much of the battlefield with your units ready to react where needed. I will always take a model with heroic march though as it enables a quick reaction, this can be essential in certain scenarios and matchups to assist. Dwarfs are slow, which means that you actually want to be pro-active and moving constantly to get the right place or achieve the objectives more often than not.
@@alastairking9046 Thanks for the advice. I'm so used to the old rules which didn't have the shooting penalty for moving and have it as a habit to do 1/3 bows.
Do you think the following 700pt list would do well?
WB1 Durin
3 Vault Warden
4 Dwarf Warrior, Shield
1 Khazad Guard, 2-Handed Hammer
WB2 Dwarf King
2 Vault Warden
3 Dwarf Warrior, shield
3 Dwarf Warrior, dwarf bow
WB3 King's Champion + Heralds
2 Vault Warden
2 Dwarf Warrior, dwarf bow
3 Dwarf Ranger, bow, Throwing Axe
I had a few extra points so upgrade 1 of the dwarf warriors to the Khazad Guard with Hammer.
On the list distinction: you only lose Durin and Mardin - Kingdom of Moria can get Kings too...
Just a fun list I wrote some time ago. Really enjoy the podcast
800P Survivors of Laketown, the Iron Hills and Halls of Thranduil (green) - 38 models, 3 bands, 6 bows, 7 riders, 7 Might
Thranduil with Additional Elven-made sword, Circlet of Kings, Heavy armor and Elf bow on Elk (General) - 190
5x Mirkwood Cavalry with Shield - 85
1x Mirkwood Sentinel - 25
Dain Ironfoot on War Boar - 160
18x Iron Hills Dwarf, 1x with Banner and Spear, 17x with Spear - 241
Bianca Hilda - 30
11x Lake-Town Militia, 4x with Shield, 3x with Spear and Shield, 4x with Bow - 69
In re: the Witch-King's Heroic tier: in the Armies of the LOTR, he's a HoL in Mordor and Angmar according to the first pages of their armies, while he's a HoV in Barad-Dur. The FAQ for Gondor at War changed the Mordor summary with the new characters to include this (omitted when originally printed).
great episode! will you make corsairs of umbar army talk?
Absolutely! We plan to go through every faction eventually
@@dchobbitleague8191 Beg you to do the Corsairs next 😁
One note about vault wardens that wasnt really brought up I'd like to ask about:
What about using only say 2-3 in a "generic" Balin + Champ + King list?
There the teams would be just to give spear supports to the heroes. That extra attack really makes a big difference in winning duels and therefore also keeping the heroes killing and staying alive.
The two (maybe three) shield models can be used to screen against shooting and more importantly maybe screen your mainline from getting hurled by a fell beast? And with the D9 they're still pretty damn durable even if they're just mixed into your regular warriors.
A lot of people seem to just think about using them as a team but wouldnt using them as I said here be more effective? The spear would likely contribute much more to pay for itself. And the shield can be an extremely durable objective sitter, roadblock, anti-hurl tool or just a regular warrior that is highly unlikely to die unless trapped.
It would also give a middle ground between not having them at all or spamming them which seemed to be the focus of the discussion.
Really nice video!
One small correction. The khazad guard is actually defence 7 & not 6.
So morannon orcs hit them on 6's...
Which makes them pretty strong I think (definately when upgraded to hearthguard).
I´ve had some ideas for future episodes: You could make a list building challenge (players ask you to build a list based on their wishes or maybe a game analysis like it´s done in sport channels. To make this possible you could either look at batreps (for example the Ardacon masters) or players could send you a written batrep with pictures. I know that this would take a lot of preperation so it isn´t as easy as "just" talking about a certain topic but I´d really like this if you made this happen.
Thanks for the review guys! I realized my mistake about not having a hero of valour in my Mordor contingent as well. I think what I would change would be replace Guritz, 3 points of Will, and 2 orcs with Mouth of Sauron on horse. Although, I am considering the WK suggestions since you all feel so strongly!
And just to defend my Moria choice further in addition to just the cave troll, the goblin archers give me a massive advantage in Clash by Moonlight!
Keep up the good work!
p.s. I think Devin got this, sorry Mik. Disclaimer I'm not a huge fellbeast guy.
Any reason Moria didn't bring Druzhag to bling out the Spider Queen for 3-5 turns?
@@SonsOfGondor1 I've done the Druzag beasts thing before and it's fun but kinda different than what I'm trying to go for here. If I were to go that route I wouldn't bother to take Mordor, just Moria and Denizens might work better.
I was sort of assuming that you took the generic wraith, in part, as it was the only March in your list. Overall - I like the flexibility that this list gives you.
Sticking with the theme of the video (and my main army):
Khazad-dum: 500pts
King's Champion
6x Dwarf Warriors with Shield
4x Dwarf Warriors with Bow
2x Iron Guard
Dwarf King w Throw
4x Dwarf Warriors with Shield
4x Dwarf Warriors with Bow (3 w/ 2-handed axes for when you feel brave)
1x Vault Warden Team
Ballista
Rough Stats: 5 Might (counting the Siege Vet) , 28 Models, 8 Bows, 2 Throws in the Iron Guard.
I've run versions of this list before with more throwing weapons on rangers instead of warriors with dwarf bows, but discussing a bit of "bow spam" for Khazad-dum peaked my interest. Thoughts?
Also, I don't believe y'all mentioned Mardin. I have used him LOADS with only one successful game where he skewered a Troll Chieftain in one go. I think he's trash; thoughts from the Unexpected Team?
Not enough Ballistas...
I quite like that this list with its high defence and pretty good numbers for a D7 army actually has some fighting chance against Rangers Legendary Legion, which is pretty rare to see.
I think none of us mentioned Mardin because trolls are generally not great, so there isn't a need to have a problem solver for them.
@@MBSoundDesign Mardin isn't even good at taking out trolls, F5 no strike and only 2 attacks. Its more likely the troll will kill you.
On bows: I take 33% bows with an even split of Ranger bows and Dwarf bows - against even-Defense, that S3 isn't doing anything for you, so might as well hit more often... and I get to about mid-40 models at 800 pts
I like the 50/50 mix of rangers with bows and warriors as well. I do always try to take the rangers with throwing axes though as it makes them quite effective when combat hits as well.
in your opinion: is khazad dum an underdog/ an underpowered list because of the total lack of all of these: spear support (not talking about mass vault wardens), cavalry, magic, green allies, good warmachines and strong archers? Iron hills have all of the before mentioned except magic. I just dont see any pros for khazad dum. It just seems like a weaker dwarf army because of the *old and therefore unloved army* syndrome to me. Also, is it worth to give up the juicy army bonus to cover some of these weaknesses with yellow allies like a lady of light or a Gildor with 12 fast spear/bow elves?
What do you think about adding in Mardin with Durin for a Khazad-Dum list? Nobody even mentioned him in the podcast, is he even worth it for the 75 points? His profile looks good to me but I could be wrong.
I've been playing Dwarves of Moria for almost 10 years - I think March is critically important and as a result, I take the Moria Expedition every time (Balin might not be quite as killy as Durin, but he can March or call Defense - neither of which you can do with Durin). You also get priority rerolls, which are nice.
Durin can call a heroic defense, but march is super important in any dwarf list. Luckily the Dwarf king and captain are actually pretty solid options.
@@alastairking9046 Thanks for the correction - forgot he had Defense. Makes him pretty tough for a round (though at the cost of the all-important Might point).
Heard someone (can't remeber who) claim in a recent pocast that Rivendell was not competitive at all. So I have been playing around with Rivendell a bit latly - and had some success with variants of the list below (4 wins 2 losses over the last month). So first of; In your mind is Rivendell competitive (outside of pure knights)? And what do you think of this list below? (I had a couple of knights in with Glorfindel - but have kicked them out for underperforming and relaced them with 4 footmodels)
Warband 1 6/15
Glorfindel, Lord of the West with Asfaloth; Armour of Gondolin;
3 High Elf Warrior with Spear; Shield;
3 High Elf Warrior with Elf Bow;
----
Warband 2 6/6
Círdan
3 High Elf Warrior with Spear; Shield;
3 High Elf Warrior with Elf Bow;
----
Warband 3 11/12
Erestor
Bilbo Baggins (Old) with The Ring;
1 High Elf Warrior with Banner; Spear; Shield;
7 High Elf Warrior with Spear; Shield;
2 High Elf Warrior
----
Warband 4 8/12
Gildor Inglorion
4 Noldorin Exile with Elf Bow;
4 Noldorin Exile with Throwing daggers; Wood Elf Spear;
----
800 pts, 35 models
Got a Mordor list I'm hoping to try soon - would love to hear what you guys think:
800pts (44 models, 9 Might, 9 Orc bows):
The Witch-King of Angmar on horse with Crown of Morgul, Morgul Blade, and 3M/15W/2F
6 Black Numenoreans
2 Morannon Orcs with shields
4 Morannon Orcs with shields and spears
1 Morannon Orc with shield, spear, and banner
Ringwraith on horse with 2M/9W/1F
1 Orc Tracker
3 Morannon Orcs with shields
3 Morannon Orcs with shields and spears
2 Mordor Uruk-Hai with Orc bows and two-handed maces
Ringwraith on horse with 2M/9W/1F
1 Orc Tracker
3 Morannon Orcs with shields
3 Morannon Orcs with shields and spears
2 Mordor Uruk-Hai with Orc bows
Ringwraith on horse with 2M/9W/1F
1 Orc Tracker
3 Morannon Orcs with shields
3 Morannon Orcs with shields and spears
1 Mordor Uruk-Hai with Orc bow
1 Mordor Uruk-Hai with Orc bow and two-handed mace
In the old edition, I would love playing this. In fact, at the 2017 ETC, Team France played I think more than 9 Ringwraiths between the 4 armies they used and the French meta was at the time full of budget Wraiths. Currently however I look at this and think to myself "cool, but what's the plan against Galadriel?". Normally to beat big heroes, you need a spam of spells. To counter a spam of spells you play smaller heroes, you play Elendil/Glorfindel or you just throw in Galadriel. Sadly Galadriel has virtually no downsides at higher points limits. At 800pts I'd be worried I lack ways to beat Terror and get torn apart by Elendil, Glorfindel and Galadriel whilst my only Heroic Striker is my general.
@@MBSoundDesign A good point - Galadriel LOL will be a tough draw, but with 4 Ringwraiths, she's looking at needing to stop 4 Transfix attempts and if ANY of those go off, she can be charged, knocked down, and killed. Transfix is easy to get off and while she can rely on Fortify Spirit to keep herself in the fight for a while, those 2 dice are going to have a hard time on their own stopping a cast on a 5 or 6. With 10" move on these guys, I can skirmish a bit with her, wearing down her actual Will store or Might and charge in when she's weak. The primary reason I built this list wasn't to fight spell-casters though - mostly it comes down to the theory that most big heroes only have 3 Will, so having 4 Transfix attempts means I can shut almost anyone down and bludgeon them with Morannons...
@@SonsOfGondor1 I understand that, but the flaw I see here is that Transfix doesn't decrease Fight Value or Attacks in the current rules, so she (or any other big hero in fact) is still fighting at F6/A3 with 3 Might. She still outfights everybody in your army except the Heroic Striking Witch King and I'd be surprised if your opponent will just let you get the perfect charge with WK. Depending on the scenario, Galadriel can fortify all of the enemy heroes before you even start casting spells, at which point you'll be hard pressed to do very much at all. Even if you get one or two Transfixes off every turn, you're still not killing F5+ Heroes, because nobody in your army outside of WK can strike and you only have 9 Will on each non-WK. In the current rules, all Transfix does is essentially pauses a Hero from killing and buys you some time to build an advantage over their army or objectives. Only way Transfix reliably removes Heroes is though Bat Swarm or HS (or your own hero with high Fight).
@@SonsOfGondor1 On the other hand, what I love about having multiple wraiths is Black Darts. I've played a 3-wraith 800 point list with a horde of Morannons and Black Numenorians at the start of this year and I was able to reliably take out the likes of Madril or other minor heroes with triple BDs before they ever came close or got to use their Might. At that point, their big heroes were stuck having to burn Might on Heroics, which in turn significantly minimised their efficacy. So if you were to take that approach, you're probably better off dropping 1 of your Wraiths and turning 2 of them into named ones (I like Tainted, Dwimmerlaik, Undying or Shadow Lord here).
Fair points - I'm of the opinion that a Transfixed hero isn't killing stuff, so stalling heroes can be enough to crack the rest of the army. Using Black Darts is risky with the Will we have, but certainly an option.
Main topic starts at 28:00.
Obviously this list is going to win every tournament once the pandemic is done and stuff starts up again.
Khazad-Dûm 800 pts
Durin - 160 pts (Leader)
Mardin - 75 pts
King’s Champion - 140 pts
3x Dwarf Ballista - 180 pts
8x Vault Warden Team - 200 pts
5x Dwarf Warriors w/shields - 45 pts
Might - 8
Models - 30
Banners - 2 (well kind of)
Swap Mardin for a Dwarf King? You got no March in that list...
I love the 3 Ballistas, but if it turns out that's an overkill (surely not!), then I have another list to top it:
Balin
King's Champion
Floi
6x Vault Warden Teams
2x Ballistas
12x Dwarves with Bows
9x Dwarves with Shields
2x Dwarves naked
Total: 800 points, 44 models, 12 bows, 2 Ballistas, 6 Might
SonsOfGondor1 I could do that if I wanted to actually play remotely competitive. I was making a joke list really based on their ballista discussion. But, honestly, your idea is good now that Im thinking about it. Might actually be worth taking for a good mix of lols and gameplay.
Was it just me, or was there an ad literally every few minutes?
Only you
I'd say Mik would win because he could be sneaky by just casting black dart on Aragorn until he gets 1 wound through and than just run away and win 1-0.
I feel like Black Dart is an inefficient use of Will/Might on anyone except the Witch-King with the Crown (even then, I don't like it).
Lol, yeah I could do that, but with so few models on the board and no shooting, I'd expect the game to go through a lot of turns within whatever time limit it has, so think eventually Devin might catch me with his free Heroic Marches.
On that note, I'm a big fan of 1-dice Black Darts. Against D7, I kill 22% of the Black Darts (plus Might, so if I want to, it could be one per turn even). Given there aren't that many models on the other side of the table and I do have 34 Will, I think it's a valid way to slightly trim down Devin's forces before combat.
It's sad that the list is illegal anyway. Contest of Champions is only 1 in 15 so not really a worry imo. Could be great fun (if it was legal).
Its funny you mention that because we noticed it too after the podcast. Luckily our advice to change the Ringwraith to the Witch King fixes this problem.
I've not jet finished listening to the episode but one thing you didn't mention in terms of the list from the beginning: You need to change the wraith for a WK/Mouth of Sauron because a wraith is only fortitude and in this yellow alliance you have to take a hero of valour
Actually this was something we forgot to mention and thought about once we were done filming haha. Fortunately our advice fixes this problem as you mentioned