Make sodium metal - Sodium hydroxide elecrtolysis cell
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- čas přidán 15. 08. 2024
- Improved cell design overview: • Sodium maker - CAD design
Cleanup after bad storage: • NaOH reactor after yea...
Redox method by NurdRage: • Make Sodium Metal With...
This is a brief overview of my electrolysis cell.
This cell is only a prototype and during process it needs attention.
Also I got electrodes reversed - inside tank is cathode(-) on lid is anode(+). I always mess this :/
It is modified in respect to castner process a lot:
-didn't use temperature gradient, in fact on the bottom temp. is higher.
-using aluminum as casing - it shows that it is very resistant to molten NaOH and sodium aluminate film is non conductive.
-using nickel for both electrodes
As simple as this cell is it can work in relatively large temperature range (310+/-20°C) without problems. According to wiki at more than 300°C sodium hydride is not forming(decomposing) so hydrogen gas is effective "inert" gas.
Sodium hydroxide will leak trough smallest hole. All seals must be perfect. Sealants based on sodium silicate and silicic acid should be used.
Another successful cell is here www.sciencemadn... - Věda a technologie
Be careful of explosions, the splatter of molten sodium hydroxide almost gave me an ear piercing.
Fortunately molten NaOH will bause mostly burns. at least smaller volumes...
Definitely wouldn't want liter spilled on my clothes heh
you got the anode and cathode the wrong way around, I think.
yeah.. shit.. well nobody noticed for 2 years :D
what do i need sodium for again?
just kidding you're a badass, i wish i could.
Love it, always wanted to build a Castner cell. Great work!
Molten Sodium Hydroxide in an Aluminium container???
That sounds like a recipe for disaster. I haven't done it myself but I'm pretty sure it won't end well.
Or am I mistaken here?
It's fine at low temperature but at higher it would certainly be a disaster.
there's a fine line between epic and a well deserved Darwin award, we salute those who tread the line
You put alot more effort in your set up but we are on the same page. I did mine outside gave the neighbors a show. The hydroxide also ate my gloves. Also found out I dont care what anyone says I say keep vinegar nearby as water will give you little mercy. When molten sodium hydroxide splashed forhead during tiny pops you will want instant relief trust me vinegar should be nearby at all times as even with saftey masks wierd things happen.. neighbors laughes hard.. I also connected the lead where the metal is formed to a pair of needle nose pliers as it would attract the sodium metal and I would gently grab globs continuously. I melted sodium metal with household pot and hotplate and kept mineral oil in another pot on another hotplate after collection of all sodium metal I would turn up heat on mineral oil till it melted the hydroxide and the sodium metal which allowed it to separate then I extract pure sodium the no hydroxide. Was able to complete whole process rather cheaply Few dollars few chemicals burns couple regular burns and no scars. I'd this still sound like something you want to do at home that means your as smart as I am and someone needs to be supervising you at all times. DO NOT TRY AT HOME YOU WILL GET BURNED. DEATH IS POSSIBLE BUT BURNS ARE A GUARANTEE.
you can make a U bent tube, sodium metal is made only on one side of the U bend, so the weight of the sodium hydroxide pushes the sodium metal up and out a small exit, self separating the reactants
Thanks for suggestion. I made vid about future design(s) czcams.com/video/kGxQbjS2IPQ/video.html
this one chamber design has advantage, that it is easier to arrange electrodes i a way they have to be in order to work. And that is close together and rather large.
I mean this U thing is possible, but I don't think, that simple bent tube would work. it would have to be welded of 3 pieces more likely.
This setup looks deranged
Please answer my Question:
Electrolysis of Sodiumchlorid in water produces chlorin gas and Sodium. The problem is that the sodium reacts with the water to NaOH.. So far so good..
But what would happen if you put the Sodiumchlorid into a Substance that works for the electrolysis, but doesn't react with the sodium? If that would be possible, it would be an extreme cheap, easy and safe method to produce Sodium metall? Do you know if that is possible?
Hi,
It is likely, that if this would be possible, somebody would at least try to do sort of that thing :)
What you want to do is basically dissolving sodium chloride in ionic liquid or "inert" polar solvent
Ionic liquid is a liquid composed only with ions, and therefore it is conductive.
as for polar solvents these would be probably fluorocarbons and as Nurdrage's recent research shows is that sodium is quite reactive to these.
in fact sodium is extremely reactive so you will need to be very clever to design a suitable solvent.
I found a few papers listing compounds, that can dissolve a bit of salt, which would be probably expensive and will not withstand presence of elemental alkaline metal.
However, I can't tell you that it can not be done...
If you are very interested, I would search for something like
soduim metal ionic liquid
soduim chloride ionic liquid solubility
soduim metal inert polar solvent
...
aaaand expect a lot of academic papers...
cheers :)
Ilusys Systems Thank you very much :)
Just fill a container with warm salt then place ice on it, keep pressure on it and keep it cold.
The only concern would be the clorine could dissolve into the solvent and destroy the sodium
I built one out of shitty stainless and it ate the bottom out of the cell with about a kilo of molten NAOH that ran all over the aluminum top hot plate.Lots of sodium kept catching fire. Had to dump 2 5 gal. buckets of sand on it till it quit reacting and cooled. Had it not been a on the garage floor it would have been much worse.
Awesome
Aperture Science:
We do what we must because we can
What happens when the molten sodium hydroxide gets too hot? I read that the sodium gets dissolved into the hydroxide and cannot be separated. Has this happened to you before? I tried to electrolyze the lye on a small propane stove, and while it did work for melting the hydroxide, and at one point I saw a sort of a grayish film at the top. Afterwards(with my propane exhausted ) I reexamined the experiment, only to find that the sodium hydroxide had solidified into as waxy brown solid from which I could not removed the sodium. Frustrated, I poured water into the can. To my surprise, nothing happened. I expected at least some fiz or sparks or a subtle display of reactivity, but all I could see were supposed hydrogen gas bubbles evolving from the solid.
I think, that sodium should separate from lye when cooling in such case. What was material of your container?
Aluminium(a tuna can)
Just buy sodium it's so cheap
@@AUXASSASINX from where?
1:49 so think what it can do to your bare hand .
it will cause minor burns, but the stuff would quickly flake off. Which it wouldn't do under protective layer. Though leather gloves could do the job actually. some destructive tests would be needed
BEWARE BIG MISTAKE!!!!!!!, this guy mislabeled the anode and cathode, note hydrogen and sodium forms on the Cathode (center), and oxygen form on the anode (outer)
ChemPlayer, is that you?
Wei Zhao wtf you are talking about man?
Are you related to Chemplayer?
- Just Joking...- Excellent Demonstration.
Thank you
I admire chemplayer's work :)
when enough sodium buils up outside your collection tube it short circuits and explodes . if sodium touches anode it explods
Why isn't the sodium hydroxide destroying the aluminum ? Is it because there's no water present ?
yes no water.....
@@oceanhouse8080 Ok, I would imagine the cell would be slowly eaten away over time because the electrolysis of Naoh produces H2O as a side product.
I built a 3kg cell out of aluminium and I can verify its nearly inert to hot fused naoh my cell was molten for 3 weeks before my ceramic seal failed...... Once you get it hot you have to keep it hot because if you let it cool it takes water from the atmosphere, but other than that zero cell damage....and aluminium keeps the melt clean unlike iron of stainless causing contamination...I think the fused Noah causes the aluminum to build up a thick oxide layer that passavates it.....only better material would be titanium IMHO... I decommissioned my cell by pouring the cell while hot into a stainless steel can, then once cooled t be cell went into a 50 gallon water bath and was allowed to soak for 12 hours to dissolve the remaining NaOH, cell was broken down dried and placed into storage with no visible deterioration...
@@oceanhouse8080 Good to know. I suppose if its kept hot any water that forms must boil out instantly.
😊👍 nice experiment...
Any tips on how to make a power supply?
Yes, turns out, that buck converter is super effective and you can use cheap PC PSU. These are very handy also for other electrolysis cells. Even super basic textbook buck converter with random chokes that I find laying around is able to provide 20A of current that is totally enough for experimentation. In this case I operated around 5 - 7V, but for say Cu/Ni plating you may want to use 0-2V range so make sure it goes down to 0 if you want to buy one and use it for other purposes...
I used a strong laptop charges found at goodwill cheap amd effective check the label for voltage and amps
Fantastic! have you had any problem with corrosion of the aluminum body?
thank you! no problems at all during electrolysis. Cleaning with water does no noticeable damage as thicknes is 10mm or cca 1/2in.
I have not used it since winter, which is about 8 months and cell is laying outside not protected from weather. It is still full of NaOH! Still no signs of damage. I may try to open it tomorrow, but I dont have much time...
Is no one commenting on how INSANE this is!? hahaha the setup looks like something I would do. This is so dangerous....everything about it.
Did you follow the OpenChem template for this video? :) Sounds familiar.
Not exactly.
But Chemplayer gave me the push to do youtube.
Super! Very good.
I wonder if it would not be better to boil out sodium metal just by heating all electrolyzer to the temperature of about 900C and then condense it?
that way danger of explosion could be avoided and the process can be run continuously
also instead of sodium hydroxide, chloride could be a cheaper option
Yes. That is done at industrial scale :)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downs_cell
My goal is however make this possible for small scale production at home.
deltaxcd reaching temperatures >900° is not easy for most people. Not to mention, working at such high temperatures is quite energy intensive for such small scale production. While it is safer, it is certainly not as viable for the amature chemist.
Actually no, it is not that hard as you think I tried something like that on the very small scale, the only problem is heat resistant heating elements that could sustain that temperature while with electric heating you can reach unlimited temperatures.
Reaching 900C is on the limit of what you can do with plain heating wire, just using some standard heating element. it is not very easy but too hard either.
In this situation, things are much easier because heating can be done directly with same electrodes and electrolysis
I would suggest even more simple setting: simply drop nichrome wire in the powdered salt and heat it using electric power to melt everything. Finally, apply DC current to the electrodes and heat everything to the sodium boiling point using that DC current
No extra hardware is required just ramp up the current.
Also as the bonus, there will be considerable amount of chlorine which can be used to make hypochlorite or chloroform
Is it a method to produce sodium by decomposition of NaOH or just the method of extraction of sodium produced by electrolisis from the rest of NaOH ? Will NaOH decompose when heated to around 900C ? I read on Wikipedia that boiling point of NaOH is around 1390 C and boiling point of NaCl is around 1450 C, but I didn't see any information about them thermally decomposing at some point below those temperatures.
what material is the collection tube?
Aluminium
Can you please made a video on how to make this
You can watch this
czcams.com/video/wK5c2gdcssA/video.html
And I am making vid, in which I will describe all components and improved version of this cell.
sodium hydroxide dissolve sodium if you get it over 320 deg i think
Impressive. Give no credit to those that degrade this due to the chemplayer style. I would wager chemplayer would applaud this work for curiosity, but it is not safe. It is worth mentioning to others that making sodium metal is dangerous. Make damn sure you know your shit before doing anything like this.
True, if a person is able to do this easily that person probably knows how to handle the situation. My point is to keep the curious amateur from maiming themselves, or burning down their house.
I know, I just joked a little bit..
Even me cooled sodium with mineral oil, overflowing container, and it catches fire :)
It is said that many drivers will destroy their first car. So did I. I don't think, that there is any way around this. Maybe in car accidents there could be better and longer training, but there is no way that there will be training for everything..
Well maybe there is - it's called life :)
But yeah I see your point, in fact I rather warned to not connect electrolytic capacitor to AC voltage, because that is quite simple and there may be someone, that would not expect it to explode.
Anyway, sorry, but I just enjoy these philosophical discussions :)
Oh and I found safety warning(s)
czcams.com/video/BElkJ6VNwO4/video.htmlm41s
czcams.com/video/BElkJ6VNwO4/video.htmlm10s
czcams.com/video/BElkJ6VNwO4/video.htmlm53s
This is amazing. How does the NaOH not destroy the aluminum?
I guess this is due to sodium aluminate film formed. When testing aluminium as electrodes(stupid, i know), the current quickly fall to zero, and aluminum lasted surprisingly long time...
Dear madam ,
I am kailasanathan a science enthusiast from india.
Kindly tell me a way to increase the output of sodium metal from the electrolysis of molten sodium chloride.
Regards
Kailasanathan
I don't have experience with that kind of cell, but even then, your question is quite vague. Vague answer would be: Increase current :)
Did you really miss that it's a guy and no woman? 🥴
hello can you give me more information about the transformer? diodes, uf capacitor, thanks
Anyway, I respect you!
Hi what diode You use depends on current - I used 50A full bridge rectifier. that should be enough for most cases. No capacitors - you don't really need them
Selecting transformer is little bit more tricky, that's why I made my own. As you can not really predict voltage drop of cell. I would try to use 5V SMPS next time. What you really should look for is high output current capability.
Current required is function of electrodes area / distance, cell temperature, and stuff. there is no universal formula for that - you will have to experiment to have an idea. Consider 2 wires 2mm dia, 50mm long, 15mm distance to consume 10 - 15A
I purchased a 5V 50a smps, I hope they are not too many 50a, when I will make my cell I will send you a video, thanks
Are you doing this in your house?!
not mine, it is rented :p
@@IlusysSystems Sigma male grind set
Hi, from what material are insulators made in the body?
You can watch 2 videos in description.
Improved cell design overview: www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGxQb...
Cleanup after bad storage: www.youtube.com/watch?v=wK5c2...
I used ceramic fuse body sealed with Hi-temp sealant/cement. i used sealant based on sodium silicate/silicic acid
Which mistakes did you make?
Looks extremely good by the way, simplistic, but practical.
Sorry for late answer.
Well I wrote something in the description - actualy whole development is full of mistakes and corrections. Basicaly the hardest part is choosing the right materials - so Al for casing and Ni for electrodes seems to be only option. NaOH eat everything and contamination will lead to higher melting point so process will be stopped.
Also it was long time ago and I don't exactly remember a lot of things :/
Thank you, May I suggest Fe for the casing? NaOH doesnt eat through it.
Hi,
Thanks for suggestion. Guy here www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=9797 uses stainless steel I think.
While steel is fine when talking about contamination, that steel that I used was no more stainless after experiment, so that also may be issue for me :)
the main issue is, that I used 6V supply i think and electrolysis takes about 2V or so. So 4V was wasted as heat(so hotplate can be turned off).
Al in NaOH will form film that is non conductive, and that is important because if I separate electrodes by conductive steel, that separating element will have a potential of 3V and thus I will have 2 cells in one:
0V -(3V diff)- 3V -(3V diff)- 6V
On both sides Na metal will be formed along with H gas and O gas. So yield may be the same, but NaOH will be consumed twice as fast + there may be explosions + Na2O will be formed and so on...
I dont say, that it is impossible, but a lot more tolerant and clean using Al...
Richard Antalík i understand, I will problably use NaCl and a steel containrr with plastic lid inside a kiln, lets see how it goed.
Well I also tried NaCl(even mixxed with CaCl), but at that temperature without inert gas atmosphere Na metal will imediately react with air...
I guess that at those temperatures even teflon will decompose.
But I realy can not imagine your setup so...
Super!
can you sell some of your sodium on internet i would really like to get some i made so e sodium metal but less than 0,1 gram of it and i lost a lot of sodium by doing that for me
I would send you if I had any left. Now I dont have a transformer so I can not make any.
But ebay is your friend...
Ilusys Systems Ebay all day every day brother.
Have you seen nurdrage's tertiary alcohol (Menthol) catalyzed magnesium reduction of naoh? Im just waiting on some menthol crystals to try it out, but it looks super promising. No electrolysis, sub 200 degrees, and great yeilds. czcams.com/video/BsNoiFj3wlw/video.html
Beautiful cell, very sloppy wiring, but thank you for the upload!
i'm glad, you liked :)
as you have sealed the electrodes ?
Electrodes are sealed from the aluminium body by ceramic tubes(fuse
body) and by stove sealant, which is basicaly sodium silicate -
waterglass.
This woman sounds just like chem player.
Yeah, I borrowed her :)
sounds expensive
Where did you find that lab spoon used? I can’t find anything close to that deep.
lol, "lab spoon" :D
That was a piece of thin "stainless" steel literally beaten into that shape :)
Ilusys Systems Alright, know that it would make my life a lot easier.
Does the amp and volts have to be specific
No. voltage should be higher as needed for efficient electrolysis - say 6V instead of 2. Total power should be maintained, so the NaOH will stay molten even without external heating.
Průzkumníci so can I just use a 6v lantern battery an it will work???
Heh wrong account :D nevermind
I should have be more specific about amps required - @ 4:20 I am saying that I was running this for 1h @ 40A to get 10g of sodium So you will probably need a lot of batteries :)
This thing requires quite heavy duty PSU
Ilusys Systems why you do this to me
lol screw this method ill just mix sodium hydroxide with magnesium
Did I miss something? I'm pretty sure you just put pure Sodium Hydroxide in an aluminum container? Or does it only create a hydrogen cloud when it is dissolved in water and then put in aluminum?
pretty sure I have said, that I think there is pasivized layer or something in video, so you missed the content :)
@@IlusysSystems I thought that looked like aluminum but I figured I was mistaken as it should made quick work of that aluminum at high Temps but you would definitely notice a violent reaction if it ever does reach that aluminum
is this Experiments dangerous
Hell yeah! :)
But you know, some of us like to live dangerously.
I kinda feel to talk about this so I will...
For me there are many types of "dangerous"
1 - energy: If I know that some system hold some amount of energy eg mechanical(car suspension string, huge weight), thermal(explosives), radiation (lasers, microwave), even strong enough speaker may do a great damage and so on... I can look at a system, quickly calculate worst case scenario and behave in such way to minimize risk...
2 - consequences: you may lose your job, go to jail for doing something stupid. You can get some bad social status for doing something stupid on the internet...
3 - health: all said in 1 + thing like poisons, self modifications and such stuff.
4 - something that I forgot or is more important to you, than its to me... Doing experiments in kitchen can have real consequnces if you have wife :)
Once you are confedent that doing something you may not end dead/sick, in prisson or with blank account(destroying something you dont own) well than why not do it?
in this case I was dealing with extremely corrosive, irritant, hot, explosive substance.
Sodium may be explosive in some circumstances - water. It is good to dye oil when storing sodium because it looks simmilar to water so you may accidentaly drop some chunks into water. but even if you drop like 100g with mineral oil into bowl of water only interface will react and you probably may be good... also 100g of sodium exploding will not do much harm to body in most cases...
molten NaOH is hot. it will burn you and may do a big crater in your skin. Unless you spill about a liter of it onto naked skin you may be good(alive). With smaller splashes you may some burns here and there, some scars here and there. Unless your face is burnt, you are basicaly good. Also hands are important(thin skin, no fat), but hands do have ability to move from one place to another very fast. Yeah if you spill that shit onto trapped hand, it will be very ugly for rest of your life, or perhaps even amputated.
Everytime use good face protection!
If I dont have GOOD protection, I basicaly dont use it. Eg. if you cut something with grinder is always easier to angle tool so that fragments are missing your head rather than use crappy googles that will deform your sight so you may cut yourself or something that you dont want to cut(that may be daangerous). But I rather not do anything if I can not protect at least eyes.
If I used plastic gloves that doesnt fit perfectly they may start to melt, and you dont feel it, because they insulate heat, or you may drop something, because it stick to something and so on. And really if you spill that molten salt on that plastic glove only thing that will happen is that it will be super difficult to remove. Welding gloves would be fine, but I didnt have any...
That molten salt also fumed a lot, my skin was all soapy, but it was so minor expositions that simply doesnt matter that much if you do it like for say 15 days. Kinda like smoking. It only gives you cancer :)
Also you will burn everything in 3m radius where you will be doing this and NaOH will be also everywhere in that radius :)
As a conclusion, you may fear walking alone in the forest at night, but be pretty confedent walking down the street in the day. Guess which one is safer(assuming you are living in locality, where there are no wolves, bears, or Australia). Well even if there are some scary animals, I guess that forest will be safer...
So dont guess. Analyze risks and do precautions.
brilliant setup! do you have use for that much Na? or just hoarding it? it is always good to have around. are you in Australia?
Hi,
Well It was new year and a lot of people is blasting stuff at this time of year..
So I was making this only to throw it to the water.
I am from Czech rep. - EU and I was traveling to slovakia and forgot sodium at home so there was no explosion :)
But this experiment kinda pushed me into chemistry stuff so it was surely good for something.
this guy had to prove to his parents to do it and they wouldnt listen so he just kept on building this story
Is this CP???? Sure seems like it?? Cool cool,
secret is safe with me.
What do you mean by CP?
Ilusys Systems Yeah sorry, I meant ChemPlayer. I didn't get the notification of your reply for some reason.
Kai Yes sir thats what i thought.
Synthetic voice. Thumbs down.
What a robotphobe, sigh :D
Turn on your subtitles.
Suck a sodium Dick
castner keller cell cool