When you cut a bunch of lines in a sheet of wood for the purpose of bending it into a curved shape, that process is called "𝐤𝐞𝐫𝐟𝐢𝐧𝐠". When done correctly, those cuts are all filled in with epoxy prior to making the bend, so once the piece is bent and cured, it is as strong as it ever was before "𝐤𝐞𝐫𝐟𝐢𝐧𝐠". It is a fine way to build neat looking cabinets and that spectral decay chart speaks for itself. A knuckle tap really says nothing, but that spectral chart sure said a mouthful. Cheers 🍻
The knuckle-tap method excites the panel, allowing you to demonstrate a lack of rigidity. If you can hear the shape of the box from knocking on it, that means it's weak and under dampened. That's not very scientific, but it was never claimed to be. It doesn't always mean that there's going to be ringing either, but it does mean that low frequency energy is going to be absorbed and dissipated through the panels rather than properly contained and projected outward. Low frequencies have more energy to contain. Precisely why subwoofer cabinets can be seen 1 1/2-inch thick or greater, using MDF or HDF. Bracing serves the same purpose, increasing panel rigidity. However, it can also divide air spaces within your enclosure. This can be used to your advantage, or could otherwise be a disadvantage. High frequencies don't present us with this same issue, because there isn't nearly as much energy behind them. Plus, the typical resonance for a speaker cabinet is well below the playable range of a high frequency driver (6kHz - 20kHz).
@@sptauto: I didn't say there was anything wrong with a knuckle tap, I do it too out of curiosity. But it's still just noise for the sake of making it. Only the measurements mean anything in this regard and that was the only point I made. He was implying that kerfing was a bad way of curving a cabinet panel, but his measurements prove that it wasn't bad at all, quite the opposite in fact. Cheers 🍻
@@Finite-Tuning The knuckle-tap method isn't about panel resonance or ringing. It's about panel reflections and their ability to contain low frequency energy. The spectral decay didn't show anything because it's completely unrelated. Resonance is something that you could test by sticking your head into the enclosure and humming different notes.
@@sptauto: A knuckle tap is not a test! It is merely and simply a thing we all do to crudely gauge material density. Those with enough experience can gain a preconceived notion of how a box will measure, but in the end It is all about resonance and the measurement of those provable facts! You must be able to know/understand a thing, long before you can fix a thing. If knuckle tap hill is where you want to set up camp, then cheers to ya 🍻.
I am very fond of your videos. I've got a whole different view on bookshelf speakers. Fortunately, 3 years ago I opted for a filter upgrade instead of new speakers. What a pity that I can't post pictures of the filters here to show what I'm proud of.
This one actually didn't look too terrible upfront! It seems like it would be worth putting in a few more parts to smooth out that dip at 7khz, hump at 10khz, and an impedance trap. Curious to know how much more money that would cost... NoRez would help too. A good note below saying that kerfed panels should be filled with epoxy before bending. Would make the side walls alot stiffer, and probably even moving the resonance point of the cabinet higher too. Overall, seems to be a pretty decent little speaker for the price. Any thoughts on the sound when you were done?
Hey Danny. Do you have any upgrades for a pair of vintage KEF Model 105/3S Reference Series? I can easily remove the two part crossover networks per speaker. The KEFs are just too large and too heavy to even considering shipping third party? However, the X-overs alone would be a piece of cake to mail. Thx
Hi Danny Great video as always. Just wondering if you've ever dealt with monitor audio pl200, please? Is there any way to improve them? I use them with yamaha a s3200 amp. Many thanks Ros
I am waiting down the road when GR-Research does a review or any needed modifications on the latest MOFI SourcePoint 10 by the legendary speaker designs engineer Andrew Jones.
I opened the back of my Sonetto center speaker and discovered «cheesy» parts there also. There was electrolytic capacitor and sandcast resistors. Maybe I will change the parts in that, with better quality parts. Terminals at wire was just normal, no gold there.
@@PaulSerat It’s not like «old times» when I bought an Energy C2(around 500 USD) and found a Solen capacitor there. They also used the same elements as their more expensive speakers in the C2.
Not bad! Easier to fix a crossover than speaker aesthetic and this speaker looks lovely and now it will sound lovely too. Less parts in signal path, tube connections it's gonna be high resolution!
This speaker honestly sound pretty decent stock. I sent these to Danny because I know it has a potential to improve significantly. The kerfed area will be filled with epoxy and when done with the crossover this will sound pretty good.
I have these as well and was impressed with listening to these in a small bedroom. I bought them as a dealer open box at a fairly significant discount. These are not your “papàs Sonus fabers…
Interesting. How about posting a review after you've installed the mods? "Should" & "probably" sound better tells us nothing yet. With that exemplary spectral decay I don't know if modifying the cabinet further is worth the effort?
@@carlitomelon4610 I have done alot of upgrades on many speakers an brands. Some are even recommended by distributors. It always sound better after you replace cheap parts. People who have personal experience changing mediocre parts in the crossover can testify to this.
Hi Danny.Any chance you could do a short explanation video on cabinet resonance and what it actually sounds like?I have Wharfedale 12.2 bookshelfs,and I am getting a wince inducing lower midrange(I think)tone(the lower notes on acoustic guitars and jazz guitars).I took my kit,except the speakers to run at a local audio through his speakers.That uncomfortable tone was not present.I assume it is cabinet resonance at fault.I even tried putting foam stoppers in the rear ports.Helped a little.Take care Danny.
I had the opportunity to purchase the Olympica III floor standers. Being a speaker builder I immediately tore them apart. I immediately growled at the interior curd cuts used to bend the panels as their legacy products were solid. I was also a tad disappointed to see the big inductor was an iron core. At $14k (not what I paid) you would think the budget would allow for that to be an air cor component. Regardless I do nite their sound and I don’t think you have an upgrade kit for them.
IMHO... If you buy something like a B&W speaker, you want it to sound like a B&W speaker. That is the sonic signature they are trying to create. Sometimes measurements don't mean the sound you like, or want.
Look at it another way - take a look at their higher end models and see that they use high quality air core inductors, claritycaps and mundorf resistors. The speaker here was an entry level to the brand with a lower build budget and intentionally designed to not be as good as the next levels up. The same can be said for B&W ranges. But also the drivers may also be a cheaper design, may be ferrite instead of neodymium as is the case with the Lumina range, so part swapping alone has its limits, too.
@@dannyrichie9743 This statement always confused me in audio. "Music as it was meant to be heard". And that is? Every speaker, and amplifier, and combination of speakers and amplifiers sound different. Subjectively, Uber HiFi these days is very bright in the treble region. Is that better? Worse? It is all subjective, and nothing even close to a live performance... because they are all running... usually... very large stadium JBL or Bose loudspeakers on maybe some JBL, Harmon, or Crown amps. My 2 cents anyway.
@@WXSTANG no its a great point. Who knows what the sound engineer intended. What speakers did they mix on? How good was their hearing? Was it being mixed to sound better on a portable, in a car, on the radio? Who knows. Therefore perfection or 'what the artist intended' really doesn't exist. Lovers of music should get the sound they like and be happy.
Danny, I'm curious about your plans on a Vintage speaker design? You mentioned back in February when you uploaded your video on the KLH model 5 speaker that you planned on working on a vintage design speaker this year. Is that still happening or did you have a change of heart? I've been patiently waiting as I would be your first customer for it. Large vintage speakers are in and I'm loving every moment of it.
In this crazy world, your rational presentation and soothing voice is a breeze of fresh air. It became a habbit to go through one of your posts (even the ones I already saw before) before going to bed to calm myself for a good sleep. Keep up the great work, Danny!!
Nice to see this video. Been thinking of buying your upgrade kit for my Sonus Faber venere2.5 for a long while. Anyone purchase a kit from Danny from the UK?
@@neilrobins3329 I do help members in Audiocircle with building their xover kits, I can either guide them or asemble the kit for them. Danny provides parts and schematic for the new crossover.
The Venere 1.5 were Absolute Sounds COMPONANT of the Year in 2018 ! Once again, you know more, and hear better than all the other experts in the industry.
I destroyed my 25 W amp just by pulling of the front grid of the speakers. This added like + 6 db in low range et so it means the amps was confronted with a hole in these frequencies and burned. Got crackings now, guess the electric capacitors have to be changed and supersized ?
@@qddk9545 This change involved a redution of mechanical resistance in the low frequencies, translated in electric terms, the ohmic resistance could have dropped from 4 ohms to 2 or maybe less. Instead of 25W the bass was asking 50 W to the amp. It failed to deliver.
Here’s a dumb question about connectors. Would the best connection be simply running the cross over input wires out the back, and soldering on whatever cables you wanted to use? Aren’t connectors a “convenience?”If you are not constantly switching off cables and speakers, would no connector be the best connector? I’m especially thinking of cheap, but surprisingly good speakers, (like the current vogue of Sonys) Anyone?
True, but if you are soldering your internal wire straight to the speaker cables you already have a break in the cable. So the tube connector is pretty close and very convenient.
Boy, the before / after measurements seem eerily similar. Am quite confused... Impedance: Before: lowF peaks at 23ohms, highF at 45. After: 20 & 51. How is that progress ? Freq response: Before= 5dB valley to peak in the 7-10KHz region. After: 4 dB. Does that consitute notable progress ? If I was buying speakers or upgrades based purely on data, I don't see being convinced by this one. What am I missing ?
It is smoother now, but that is just a small fraction of what the upgrade brings to the table. The performance difference, because of the upgrade in parts quality, makes significant improvements across the board.
Back in the '80s, some call the golden age of HiFi, quality or type of components in electronics was often touted. Easy to pop the lid and verify what was inside. Was there a sonic difference, another topic of discussion. Speaker manufacturers know the typical consumer is not going to look inside. They also know most consumers buy based on Brand/Marketing hype and reviews. There is nothing wrong with a speaker brand having a signature sound that appeals to a market segment. Speakers are sent to Danny primarily because the owner becomes dissatisfied. Either they identified a specific issue or wish to pursue possible improvements. The vast majority of FR curves Danny shows have pretty obvious issues. That is not to say every owner of a particular model are dissatisfied. It still remains up to each speaker owner to decide - remains as-is, upgrade parts, of sell and get something else.
We need more upgrades for pretty speakers like this. Upgrading an already hideous speaker is not worth it... Kudos to Sonus Faber on that cabinet build!
I’m not sure if your logic on the cost and mark-up adds up, but I could be wrong. So it stands to reason that a cheap $250 speaker cost the manufacturer about $50 to produce. Ok, fair enough. Maybe even less, I’d say. When I look at, say, Def Tech powered towers, with tons of cheap drivers, cheap amp and cloth-covered cabinet, I would agree. Are you saying that a $5000 pair of speakers has a cost of roughly $1000? A $10,000 pair costs $2k to build? THAT is where your law of diminishing returns comes in. A consumer potentially pays 10 grand only to get an additional $1000 benefit over the $5k pair of speakers. Added value becomes very minimal, all while profit margin increases. Best off negotiating at least 10-20 % off the high-end stuff👍🏻
Negotiating a price discount just affects the retailer not the supplier. Not long ago I posted a comment referencing an article that stated the “cost of goods sold” for a speaker is maximum 30% of retail. The retailer gets 50% and therefore has room to negotiate. The article went on to state that the cabinet is usually 50% of the “cost of goods” and goes up for more exotic finishes. So, for this speaker, cabinet is $180 min, leaving $180 for 4 drivers, 2 crossover boards, wiring and 4 terminals. Actually not bad and Danny’s mods made it really good.
@@mabehall7667 Thx. I understand negotiating only reduces the retailer’s profit. They need to eat, too, so best not to ask for too much of a discount. Hence, the 10-20% off high-end stuff. Yea, Danny’s the man👍🏻
I wish one day you'll analyze something over $50,000, would be cool. I get you analyze what is sent to you... unfortunately im guessing no one will send you speakers that pricey.
I have seen a few videos and in all better parts are mentioned , but are they better parts of the same value but better quality , or better quality and different values to correct the crossover design? ALso where are these parts made and they are so expensive? Most electronic parts are made in China nowdays.
@@dannyrichie9743 then it cannot be compared directly to the old crossover and defiantly not to the quality of the parts , since it's a different design. Only like to like can be compared
@@dannyrichie9743 one reason they are more expensive is labour cost, tax etc. That doesn't translates to better quality, on the contrary , same price components from China are probably better quality since labour and tax is lower. Also for you in USA , anything made in USA is better quality , but for us in Europe German cars are better quality than American cars
@@goozlo Actually the difference in parts quality is very significant between what is made here in the US versus China. Most of the Copper used in coils there is recycled. Purity is 94 to 96%. What we use here is four 9's pure Copper. The same is true for capacitors The quality differences there are completely different from one end to the other. The differences sonically are also extremely different.
Just a lil driblet, Sonus Faber is "Sound Smith" in Latin! When profit margin is so high on the top shelf models, whats it to Sonus to say just put the good stuff in the bookies and still sell em @ around $1200? Does every product in the line HAVE to be milked to maximum profit?
Keep in mind that they sell these through dealers that also want 100% markup on them. Whatever they it cost to make them gets marked up four to five times for a retail price.
@@dannyrichie9743 The $ margin between good parts and cheese just give me the feeling its incredibly petty. These "no compromises" brands, you later find out compromised big time.
So, you are an expert who reviews products known worldwide for their very high quality and OF COURSE you do better and OF COURSE you have something to sell, for our good ! And in order to prove how trustworthy you are you show graphs and curves that no one knows how to read. Ok 🎉
First of all, I am not a reviewer. Customers send these in for upgrades because they want more out of them. We just do what our customers ask of us. We also have a video or two that explains how to read and understand measurements that that helps you.
the only major issue is your typical SF owner is not a DIY individual: they went to a "boutique" audio store with the sole purpose of purchasing an attractive plug n play model. They have no intention of taking on a project, as simple as it may be.
They are beautiful z Speakers. And normally you dont upgrade your expensive speaker crossovers.( You have warranty on them) And i dont want to have ugly speakers. Even they are sounding very good. I just can't stand an ugly thing 🫣It is like seeing a movie with alot of noise in the picture. Very disrupting.
Because us DIYers have no brand and some including me lack the cabinet skills to produce something that looks as good as many commercial speakers we never get our money back 😊
Yes, and they had alot of troublles with the top glass ( air bubbles inside) so they decided to stop producing in China. Now they are producing all their speakers in Italy again.
That is nice. But also extremely dissapointing. They always cutting cost on the crossover. Very frustrating. Dont think they cutting cost on the SF Aïda... In curious about the Magnat transpuls 1500 what can be improved there 🤔
I sent in my transpuls 1500 crossover to Danny to map it out. You can email him if you want to upgrade the parts. You can add additional bracing, norez to cabinet and kilmat to the baskets of the drivers. Really improved the speaker.
@@Pete.across.the.street are they worth the upgrade? I bpught the speakers dirt cheap from somebody who did an 'upgrade' (ahum) to Bose. They dont sounding that airy like my simple SF Toy's. And that is a real bummer. Is it possible or are the speaker drivers not worth it?
@@Belinea1610 in my opinion, it's definitely worth it. Cut some 1x1s at 45 degree angles to brace the sides. Add norez the rest of the cabinet. Put clay on the back side of the tweeter horn. Add dynomat/killmat to the baskets of the woofer and mid. All that cleans up things a lot, it might be enough for you. The drivers are actually pretty good and you can get more out of them. There's only two caps and one coil in the tweeter path. You could start with that and see if you want to upgrade the rest. It was a fun project for me. For the cost of the speaker plus upgrades you'd be hard pressed to find something that can beat it sound wise at the same price. But if build quality is important, it's still a cheap speaker cabinet and you might be better off just buying a better speaker.
@@minottauruss Unfortunately, unless you step up into a whole new price bracket then you just get more of the same. The upgrades often result in speakers that compete with models in the five figure range without getting near that price point.
@@dannyrichie9743 I don't know what I'm missing ? Are you sure ? I've been an audiophile and musician longer than you've probably been alive. I was building tube amps etc in the early 70's, also worked at a recording studio for more than two decades, still do. Had more very expensive audio components and gear than I could list. Don't know what I'm missing indeed.
I had bought about half a dozen sets of Sonus Faber speakers before these had come out. To me I felt like the company was heading in a different direction trying to make too much budget stuff available to the low end of the town. Looking at the crossover in that Venere, it is a obvious that it is a pale shadow of the former speakers.
Frequency response ONLY shows the drivers capability to reproduce those signals. Doesn't tell you how the speakers was Tuned to sound, Soundstage, Fidelity etc....
I've been paying close attention to what components go in the crossover in even high end speakers and I have to say I'm very disappointed that even high end speakers like Kef Blade and Reference use sand cast resistors and iron core inductors in their crossover. Kef Blade is a $32K speaker. Of all the high end speakers I have been looking at only the current B&W 803, 802 & 801 are using quality components in their crossover but its a shame their tuning is s**t. Dynaudio confidence series also uses some Mundorf parts but even those speakers have sandcast resistors and iron core inductors.
Take a look/listen to the Tyler Acoustics line. Really well-designed and built, quality parts and drivers, beautiful cabinets, and great value for the money. And Danny had a hand in the crossover tuning of many of the models!
Have any of the critics ever asked the actual engineers of their design choices? Maybe there’s a reason for using those “budget” components in their specific applications. Using anything that carries the slightest risk of compromising sound quality in a high-end component is a bad decision even from a purely economic perspective.
@@gaborozorai3714 Usually the designers know the price point they are designing a particular speaker to upfront. I think most companies realize that the XO measures the same regardless of parts quality, and most customer's will buy on the basis of measurements and magazine reviews, so they cheap out on the parts. Most customers either don't have golden ears, or a wide enough frame of reference to really be able to tell the difference. Sad, but true....
@@gaborozorai3714 You have a fair point BUT the thing is if you read the white paper of high end speakers that are provided by manufacturers they always talk about the crossover and highlight that they are using high quality parts like air core inductors for their zero noise and distortion and quality inductors for low inductance and how air core is better than iron core in their own white paper plus the use of high purity cabling because at that level those things matter subjectively and objectively. If the speaker is using high end WBT binding posts they are mentioned for their sonic purity and high quality copper. Even between the 802D4 & 801D4 there is difference in the type of caps that are used. Both are using Mundorf caps but 801D4 gets the best caps that Mundorf makes. Quality parts DO MATTER in a speaker and I can understand why even $5K speakers may have some cheesy parts in a crossover but at $30K-$35K. Come on!. $30K speakers are life time purchases and for that price a customer expects high quality EVERYWHERE. I would rather a speaker cost $35K rather than $32K and have the best parts in a crossover than try to save $ by using cheap parts.
@@KirkLazurus What I am saying is that those "cheesy" parts may have been chosen for benefits other than financial when we are talking about a $20 difference in a $30k speaker. An iron core inductor for instance - and there are some pretty good quality ones out there - allows for fewer turns of large gauge wire to be used meaning lower impedance (maybe even less phase delay). Where high power handling and potential saturation of the iron core are not issues they may be the better choice. Until proven otherwise I like to give the engineers of reputable companies the benefit of the doubt.
I always find it discouraging when you are still having to improve on a quality monitor like this, Sonus Faber. I mean, they make some fantastic speakers (or so I thought) and this still needs to be improved.
Anything can be improved when you chuck money at it. The real question is does the sound difference justify the cost. We never really find out in these videos other than looking at the measurements, although I think there are a couple of before and after video reviews of Danny's upgrades out there.
Actually, these speakers measures really well before the upgrade. They are also widely critically acclaimed. So this is an example of a good speaker built to a price point (unlike a lot of the speakers Danny upgrade). Doesn't mean it won't be better after the upgrade. But a $259 component upgrade would translate to a ~1k price increase in retail.
Well folks it's onion skin time , you know when all those men run around a field in Fluro T shirt & their Y fronts chasing a bag of wind. Danial is going to have bigger bags under his eyes then the sizes of the suitcases his wife would take with them if they were going away for a dirty weekend in Vagas. Enjoy THE GAME Danial Kiwi Rod
So Danny you were able to upgrade these speakers for 250.00. I don’t know what your cost on those parts are but I would think you are selling at a mark up and making a profit. So why wouldn’t the manufacturer simply source out these better quality parts and raise the prices a tad to cover them and sell a better speaker to begin with? Not trying to make light of your business Danny but to me it seems like a logical business practice! Heck, even if you have to add the additional 250 to the speakers MSRP it would still be worth it. Just my 2 cents.
Sonos Faber might simply feel that expensive xo parts don't make enough of a difference at this price point to prioritize it over driver and cabinet quality. Upgrading it like this would probably mean ~1k increase in retail price, which is very significant.
There is not a lot of profit in crossover parts. On average it is about 30%, but let's say that the manufacturer strikes a deal and buys huge quantities and gets the price of the parts used in this upgrade for $150. That $150 will add $750 to the retail price. So it is a lot cheaper to make upgrades like this in the aftermarket.
@@dannyrichie9743 how much did the old crossover parts cost? Surely it's the delta we should be talking about. The new parts may cost $150 but if the old parts cost the same or more then the overall cost to manufacture would be neutral or less. So no impact on retail cost unless you're suggesting the original crossover parts used were a lot less than $150. Interesting vid none the less.
I can't speak to Sonus Faber. I have found that some manufacturers only do high end materials on their top end lines and even outsource construction for volume to other countries on the low end line stuff. If you are one in 100,000 people with a low end purchase they likely care less as it's about volume to make any decent profit. The higher end stuff with larger profit margins but less people to buy them they have to use high end stuff. If they do not and try to dupe people worth millions to tens of millions or more those people can work to take those companies out of business. Consumers with lots of money when purchasing have power because they often have larger networks or knowing many people and other companies. I was looking at the new Aida 2. I will want to see internal parts now and construction and do a test run in my room before making a decision.
To my understanding this line is made in China. I have often wondered why Sonus faber would do this. I would guess strictly to make money with a less expensive speaker or to let a wider audience experience the Sonus faber line. I have 10 sets of Sonus faber speakers and I love them all. All of them are made in Italy. The sound and looks are really awesome. This fellow claims to make speakers sound better. Mostly by selling you parts that you don't really need to change the sound. Not really to make them better. Sonus faber has the Sonus faber voice that is beautiful. If you change parts you will no longer have the sound of Sonus faber. Grafs and electronic measurements don't do it for me. Especially when it comes to sound. You need to listen and make your choice of a speaker that sounds great to you. If your crosovers go bad then replace them if needed but otherwise don't change them. It seems silly to me.
It really doesn't work that way. The cheap parts are chosen because they're cheap, not because they create a house sound. The cheap parts smear the signal, flatten the sound stage, and eat up detail and resolution. That's a fact. The upgrade transforms it into a pretty nice speaker that is improved in all areas. Also, your made in Italy models could use the same improvements.
Saved as a compressed CZcams file and played back through your iphone? It is really hard to tell anything that way. You miss what the upgrade really brings to the table.
It's not a low end product. Not at all. But it is built to a price point. Then you have to make compromises, and at the end of the day, this speaker measures really well stock. Clearly, they prioritized cabinet and measured performance, not xo part quality.
After watching dozens of GR-Research videos I must admit I am a bit puzzled by this one. The crossover parts might be low cost, but the before and after are almost identical. There are barely any improvements in frequency response, both on and off axis. The spectral decay was already exemplary and the Impedance curve spike is still there with the upgraded parts. I looks to me that the engineers did a pretty good job saving money without compromising results.
The real improvements will be in clarity, detail levels, cleaner vocals, less cabinet resonances, better imaging, better sound stage layering, a deeper sound stage, and tighter bass response.
What kind of ignorant trolling bullshit comment is that? 1. Why "go there again" if you aren't interested? Who forces you to watch Danny's videos? 2. Do you have any idea what Danny's work is focused on?
Ridiculous using so many cheap parts to get worse performance than fewer higher quality parts that COULD have been done for the same budget. Just to give people some idea, 11 components for this little 2-way is 2 more than Tekton Moab 3-way. That is lame.
When you cut a bunch of lines in a sheet of wood for the purpose of bending it into a curved shape, that process is called "𝐤𝐞𝐫𝐟𝐢𝐧𝐠". When done correctly, those cuts are all filled in with epoxy prior to making the bend, so once the piece is bent and cured, it is as strong as it ever was before "𝐤𝐞𝐫𝐟𝐢𝐧𝐠". It is a fine way to build neat looking cabinets and that spectral decay chart speaks for itself. A knuckle tap really says nothing, but that spectral chart sure said a mouthful. Cheers 🍻
The knuckle-tap method excites the panel, allowing you to demonstrate a lack of rigidity. If you can hear the shape of the box from knocking on it, that means it's weak and under dampened.
That's not very scientific, but it was never claimed to be. It doesn't always mean that there's going to be ringing either, but it does mean that low frequency energy is going to be absorbed and dissipated through the panels rather than properly contained and projected outward. Low frequencies have more energy to contain. Precisely why subwoofer cabinets can be seen 1 1/2-inch thick or greater, using MDF or HDF. Bracing serves the same purpose, increasing panel rigidity. However, it can also divide air spaces within your enclosure. This can be used to your advantage, or could otherwise be a disadvantage.
High frequencies don't present us with this same issue, because there isn't nearly as much energy behind them. Plus, the typical resonance for a speaker cabinet is well below the playable range of a high frequency driver (6kHz - 20kHz).
@@sptauto:
I didn't say there was anything wrong with a knuckle tap, I do it too out of curiosity. But it's still just noise for the sake of making it. Only the measurements mean anything in this regard and that was the only point I made. He was implying that kerfing was a bad way of curving a cabinet panel, but his measurements prove that it wasn't bad at all, quite the opposite in fact. Cheers 🍻
@@Finite-Tuning The knuckle-tap method isn't about panel resonance or ringing. It's about panel reflections and their ability to contain low frequency energy. The spectral decay didn't show anything because it's completely unrelated. Resonance is something that you could test by sticking your head into the enclosure and humming different notes.
Do you know what type of epoxy you would use for that sort of task?
@@sptauto:
A knuckle tap is not a test! It is merely and simply a thing we all do to crudely gauge material density. Those with enough experience can gain a preconceived notion of how a box will measure, but in the end It is all about resonance and the measurement of those provable facts! You must be able to know/understand a thing, long before you can fix a thing. If knuckle tap hill is where you want to set up camp, then cheers to ya 🍻.
I am very fond of your videos. I've got a whole different view on bookshelf speakers.
Fortunately, 3 years ago I opted for a filter upgrade instead of new speakers.
What a pity that I can't post pictures of the filters here to show what I'm proud of.
Danny is audio's relief pitcher, cleaning up to save a speaker. Wow!
*Thank you for your seriously honest insight about this entire speaker. Greatly appreciated.*
This is awesome , im glad at least consumer has a choice of your upgrades
I recently upgraded the crossovers on some Vega d5s. Nice improvement in the highs and lows
Nice upgrade kit Danny.
well done ,, spectacular results at a realistic price point , well matched to the box .
This one actually didn't look too terrible upfront! It seems like it would be worth putting in a few more parts to smooth out that dip at 7khz, hump at 10khz, and an impedance trap. Curious to know how much more money that would cost... NoRez would help too. A good note below saying that kerfed panels should be filled with epoxy before bending. Would make the side walls alot stiffer, and probably even moving the resonance point of the cabinet higher too. Overall, seems to be a pretty decent little speaker for the price. Any thoughts on the sound when you were done?
That's what I was wondering. If you gona drop cash on an upgrade, a few more dollars is not that big a deal.
I would just use a EQ to adjust it, alot easier and actually quite fun to adjust it if you have a measuring microphone.
I owned a pair of $3k Australian floor standers, was shocked to find the crossovers were so small, they were mounted on the terminal plates
which brand ? Aaron?
@@tapena8281 krix
Hey Danny. Do you have any upgrades for a pair of vintage KEF Model 105/3S Reference Series?
I can easily remove the two part crossover networks per speaker. The KEFs are just too large and too heavy to even considering shipping third party? However, the X-overs alone would be a piece of cake to mail. Thx
Can't wait for your review on the Sourcepoint 10
I would love to see an upgraded kit for sonetto II
Hi Danny
Great video as always.
Just wondering if you've ever dealt with monitor audio pl200, please? Is there any way to improve them? I use them with yamaha a s3200 amp.
Many thanks Ros
I have yamaha as1000 with pl100 II...I think yamaha is a good match but platinums are a bit low in the mid area
Thx for this informative analysis.
I'm in the market for SF Olymica Nova 2, should I be aware of similar corossover cost-cutting on a US10k speaker?
Thank you Danny and Hobbs
Could you add phase response with those impedance curves ..?
Regards
I am waiting down the road when GR-Research does a review or any needed modifications on the latest MOFI SourcePoint 10 by the legendary speaker designs engineer Andrew Jones.
I have already upgrade several of his designs.
@@dannyrichie9743 nice tannoy mod
I opened the back of my Sonetto center speaker and discovered «cheesy» parts there also. There was electrolytic capacitor and sandcast resistors. Maybe I will change the parts in that, with better quality parts. Terminals at wire was just normal, no gold there.
@@PaulSerat It’s not like «old times» when I bought an Energy C2(around 500 USD) and found a Solen capacitor there. They also used the same elements as their more expensive speakers in the C2.
TRIANGLE made his own XO parts....it is enough good ?? Do i need to change something in ANTAL ESW model..??
Not bad! Easier to fix a crossover than speaker aesthetic and this speaker looks lovely and now it will sound lovely too. Less parts in signal path, tube connections it's gonna be high resolution!
Yup
This speaker honestly sound pretty decent stock. I sent these to Danny because I know it has a potential to improve significantly. The kerfed area will be filled with epoxy and when done with the crossover this will sound pretty good.
Will probably sound beautiful.
I have these as well and was impressed with listening to these in a small bedroom.
I bought them as a dealer open box at a fairly significant discount. These are not your “papàs Sonus fabers…
@@chriswindham9868 we got these really cheap as well.🙂👍
Interesting.
How about posting a review after you've installed the mods?
"Should" & "probably" sound better tells us nothing yet.
With that exemplary spectral decay I don't know if modifying the cabinet further is worth the effort?
@@carlitomelon4610 I have done alot of upgrades on many speakers an brands. Some are even recommended by distributors. It always sound better after you replace cheap parts. People who have personal experience changing mediocre parts in the crossover can testify to this.
Hi Danny.Any chance you could do a short explanation video on cabinet resonance and what it actually sounds like?I have Wharfedale 12.2 bookshelfs,and I am getting a wince inducing lower midrange(I think)tone(the lower notes on acoustic guitars and jazz guitars).I took my kit,except the speakers to run at a local audio through his speakers.That uncomfortable tone was not present.I assume it is cabinet resonance at fault.I even tried putting foam stoppers in the rear ports.Helped a little.Take care Danny.
Cabinet resonances are typically a buzzing sound on bass notes. Lining it with No Rez will knock out most or all of it.
@@dannyrichie9743 Thanks Danny,does not look like resonance at fault then,sounds more like a distortion.
@@spandel100 It is likely a mechanical failure.
Those Diamond 12 series are stiffened and braced. Maybe something gave way?
We call this speaker a Ferrari Type.....😀
Another great review Danny...
From your mates down under.....
Hello can you fix b&w 802 d3? Thanks
You can get some very nice speakers in the used market if you are patience and look around.
Or you can build them from a kit.
I had the opportunity to purchase the Olympica III floor standers. Being a speaker builder I immediately tore them apart. I immediately growled at the interior curd cuts used to bend the panels as their legacy products were solid. I was also a tad disappointed to see the big inductor was an iron core. At $14k (not what I paid) you would think the budget would allow for that to be an air cor component. Regardless I do nite their sound and I don’t think you have an upgrade kit for them.
You can always send one in and we can see what we can do with it.
Woo just found this. I do plan on some sweet bang for buck speakers soon, guess I'll get subscribed.
Have you ever looked at / upgraded the Sonetto II?
We only work on what is sent in.
It looks like removing the crossover completely would be the chapest solution and also it should sound even better.
IMHO... If you buy something like a B&W speaker, you want it to sound like a B&W speaker. That is the sonic signature they are trying to create. Sometimes measurements don't mean the sound you like, or want.
Look at it another way - take a look at their higher end models and see that they use high quality air core inductors, claritycaps and mundorf resistors. The speaker here was an entry level to the brand with a lower build budget and intentionally designed to not be as good as the next levels up. The same can be said for B&W ranges.
But also the drivers may also be a cheaper design, may be ferrite instead of neodymium as is the case with the Lumina range, so part swapping alone has its limits, too.
I think most people (most of our customers) want to hear the music (as intended) and not how it sounds through something that alters it a lot.
@@dannyrichie9743 This statement always confused me in audio. "Music as it was meant to be heard". And that is? Every speaker, and amplifier, and combination of speakers and amplifiers sound different. Subjectively, Uber HiFi these days is very bright in the treble region. Is that better? Worse? It is all subjective, and nothing even close to a live performance... because they are all running... usually... very large stadium JBL or Bose loudspeakers on maybe some JBL, Harmon, or Crown amps. My 2 cents anyway.
@@WXSTANG no its a great point. Who knows what the sound engineer intended. What speakers did they mix on? How good was their hearing? Was it being mixed to sound better on a portable, in a car, on the radio? Who knows. Therefore perfection or 'what the artist intended' really doesn't exist. Lovers of music should get the sound they like and be happy.
@@dannyrichie9743 To hear the music 'as intended' you go to a live rendition. Our home audio is the fake interpretation of that said music
Why does spectral decay always have that characteristic worm shape on the low end?
Good question, I was wondering too.
That is the cut off point. Below that is removed because it can't accurately calculate below that.
Please review scansonic speakers to build a new crossover for mb5b thanks
Send one in.
Nice job!
Danny, I'm curious about your plans on a Vintage speaker design? You mentioned back in February when you uploaded your video on the KLH model 5 speaker that you planned on working on a vintage design speaker this year. Is that still happening or did you have a change of heart? I've been patiently waiting as I would be your first customer for it. Large vintage speakers are in and I'm loving every moment of it.
Yep, it is in the works. We should have some test cabinets here shortly, and I will start working on the crossover design.
@@dannyrichie9743 Awesome, thank you for the update. Looking forward to see it.
In this crazy world, your rational presentation and soothing voice is a breeze of fresh air. It became a habbit to go through one of your posts (even the ones I already saw before) before going to bed to calm myself for a good sleep. Keep up the great work, Danny!!
I've just waiting for the Monitor Audio upgrade a lot 😢
Good friend of mine have high end audio shop and above all hes electronic servicers and you woild be stun what garbadge is sold as high end..
Durban’s water putty does the trick!
Do you have an upgrade kit for the Venere 2.0?
Not yet. Maybe someone will send one in.
So you have an upgrade kit available? How do I get it?
You can order the upgrade right from our site: gr-research.com/product-category/sonus-faber-upgrades/
Nice to see this video. Been thinking of buying your upgrade kit for my Sonus Faber venere2.5 for a long while. Anyone purchase a kit from Danny from the UK?
Hey Neil, I have built those Gr Research sonus faber 2.5 kits for some members and have gotten really good feedback on the results.
@@freone111 you build them for uk members. How easy is it to build/ solder up. Clear instructions?
@@neilrobins3329 I do help members in Audiocircle with building their xover kits, I can either guide them or asemble the kit for them. Danny provides parts and schematic for the new crossover.
The Venere 1.5 were Absolute Sounds COMPONANT of the Year in 2018 ! Once again, you know more, and hear better than all the other experts in the industry.
I guess that doesn't say much for whoever was reviewing them. The crossovers were garbage.
I destroyed my 25 W amp just by pulling of the front grid of the speakers. This added like + 6 db in low range et so it means the amps was confronted with a hole in these frequencies and burned. Got crackings now, guess the electric capacitors have to be changed and supersized ?
This makes no sense to me.
@@qddk9545 This change involved a redution of mechanical resistance in the low frequencies, translated in electric terms, the ohmic resistance could have dropped from 4 ohms to 2 or maybe less. Instead of 25W the bass was asking 50 W to the amp. It failed to deliver.
how do you get the woofer out of this speaker?
You have to remove the front baffle and then the woofers are easily removed.
Here’s a dumb question about connectors. Would the best connection be simply running the cross over input wires out the back, and soldering on whatever cables you wanted to use? Aren’t connectors a “convenience?”If you are not constantly switching off cables and speakers, would no connector be the best connector? I’m especially thinking of cheap, but surprisingly good speakers, (like the current vogue of Sonys) Anyone?
True, but if you are soldering your internal wire straight to the speaker cables you already have a break in the cable. So the tube connector is pretty close and very convenient.
Or speaker cables already connected all the way through and coiled up ready to ship (don’t leave them coiled when playing)
Do you have an idea what causes the dip at 7k?
Might be intentional, I like that sound.
Boy, the before / after measurements seem eerily similar. Am quite confused...
Impedance: Before: lowF peaks at 23ohms, highF at 45. After: 20 & 51. How is that progress ?
Freq response: Before= 5dB valley to peak in the 7-10KHz region. After: 4 dB. Does that consitute notable progress ?
If I was buying speakers or upgrades based purely on data, I don't see being convinced by this one. What am I missing ?
It is smoother now, but that is just a small fraction of what the upgrade brings to the table. The performance difference, because of the upgrade in parts quality, makes significant improvements across the board.
Back in the '80s, some call the golden age of HiFi, quality or type of components in electronics was often touted. Easy to pop the lid and verify what was inside. Was there a sonic difference, another topic of discussion. Speaker manufacturers know the typical consumer is not going to look inside. They also know most consumers buy based on Brand/Marketing hype and reviews. There is nothing wrong with a speaker brand having a signature sound that appeals to a market segment.
Speakers are sent to Danny primarily because the owner becomes dissatisfied. Either they identified a specific issue or wish to pursue possible improvements. The vast majority of FR curves Danny shows have pretty obvious issues. That is not to say every owner of a particular model are dissatisfied.
It still remains up to each speaker owner to decide - remains as-is, upgrade parts, of sell and get something else.
By impedance trap do you mean a Zobel network?
No, it would be a LCR circuit.
We need more upgrades for pretty speakers like this. Upgrading an already hideous speaker is not worth it... Kudos to Sonus Faber on that cabinet build!
I love Sonus Faber design
I’m not sure if your logic on the cost and mark-up adds up, but I could be wrong. So it stands to reason that a cheap $250 speaker cost the manufacturer about $50 to produce. Ok, fair enough. Maybe even less, I’d say. When I look at, say, Def Tech powered towers, with tons of cheap drivers, cheap amp and cloth-covered cabinet, I would agree. Are you saying that a $5000 pair of speakers has a cost of roughly $1000? A $10,000 pair costs $2k to build? THAT is where your law of diminishing returns comes in. A consumer potentially pays 10 grand only to get an additional $1000 benefit over the $5k pair of speakers. Added value becomes very minimal, all while profit margin increases. Best off negotiating at least 10-20 % off the high-end stuff👍🏻
Negotiating a price discount just affects the retailer not the supplier. Not long ago I posted a comment referencing an article that stated the “cost of goods sold” for a speaker is maximum 30% of retail. The retailer gets 50% and therefore has room to negotiate. The article went on to state that the cabinet is usually 50% of the “cost of goods” and goes up for more exotic finishes. So, for this speaker, cabinet is $180 min, leaving $180 for 4 drivers, 2 crossover boards, wiring and 4 terminals. Actually not bad and Danny’s mods made it really good.
@@mabehall7667 Thx. I understand negotiating only reduces the retailer’s profit. They need to eat, too, so best not to ask for too much of a discount. Hence, the 10-20% off high-end stuff.
Yea, Danny’s the man👍🏻
Will the same crossover work with the 2.0 as well
No.
I wish one day you'll analyze something over $50,000, would be cool. I get you analyze what is sent to you... unfortunately im guessing no one will send you speakers that pricey.
I have seen a few videos and in all better parts are mentioned , but are they better parts of the same value but better quality , or better quality and different values to correct the crossover design? ALso where are these parts made and they are so expensive? Most electronic parts are made in China nowdays.
In this case a whole new crossover was designed, and yes, the parts quality are much higher.
The parts were use are made right here in the USA.
@@dannyrichie9743 then it cannot be compared directly to the old crossover and defiantly not to the quality of the parts , since it's a different design. Only like to like can be compared
@@dannyrichie9743 one reason they are more expensive is labour cost, tax etc. That doesn't translates to better quality, on the contrary , same price components from China are probably better quality since labour and tax is lower. Also for you in USA , anything made in USA is better quality , but for us in Europe German cars are better quality than American cars
@@goozlo Actually the difference in parts quality is very significant between what is made here in the US versus China. Most of the Copper used in coils there is recycled. Purity is 94 to 96%. What we use here is four 9's pure Copper. The same is true for capacitors The quality differences there are completely different from one end to the other. The differences sonically are also extremely different.
Just a lil driblet, Sonus Faber is "Sound Smith" in Latin!
When profit margin is so high on the top shelf models, whats it to Sonus to say just put the good stuff in the bookies and still sell em @ around $1200? Does every product in the line HAVE to be milked to maximum profit?
Keep in mind that they sell these through dealers that also want 100% markup on them. Whatever they it cost to make them gets marked up four to five times for a retail price.
@@dannyrichie9743 The $ margin between good parts and cheese just give me the feeling its incredibly petty. These "no compromises" brands, you later find out compromised big time.
Please test once Triangle bookshelves, like TITUS EZ
Send one in.
Sonus faber you neeed about 7.5-10k before their mini monitor has good parts. These are really like for home theater and cheaper set ups.
So, you are an expert who reviews products known worldwide for their very high quality and OF COURSE you do better and OF COURSE you have something to sell, for our good ! And in order to prove how trustworthy you are you show graphs and curves that no one knows how to read.
Ok 🎉
First of all, I am not a reviewer. Customers send these in for upgrades because they want more out of them. We just do what our customers ask of us.
We also have a video or two that explains how to read and understand measurements that that helps you.
the only major issue is your typical SF owner is not a DIY individual: they went to a "boutique" audio store with the sole purpose of purchasing an attractive plug n play model. They have no intention of taking on a project, as simple as it may be.
That's just a stereo type that you probably just made up.
We've sold quite a few Sonus Faber 2.5 upgrades already. So some of them have no issue with trying a DIY upgrade.
@@Pete.across.the.street “stereo type” sounds like an unintentional pun.😁😁😁
They are beautiful z
Speakers. And normally you dont upgrade your expensive speaker crossovers.( You have warranty on them) And i dont want to have ugly speakers. Even they are sounding very good. I just can't stand an ugly thing 🫣It is like seeing a movie with alot of noise in the picture. Very disrupting.
What's the point of measuring at all if it's all about how it sounds to you anyway?
If it measures badly, it will sound badly.
@@dannyrichie9743 Hmm. You seem to have the complete opposite opinion when other people measure your products.
@@anaxa4883 Our products measure great and sound great. I have no issue with that.
Wow, i wonder what my speakers would sell for. I put in over $1000 of parts and materials to date. (all DIY, my own design too)
Guess $200 🙂
Because us DIYers have no brand and some including me lack the cabinet skills to produce something that looks as good as many commercial speakers we never get our money back 😊
@@qddk9545 bro, too high...
the most magical speakers I've ever heard were Sonus Faber....they are a special company
Well, they left the special out of this model.
@@dannyrichie9743 I'm sure you put it back in ?
@@DrBroncanuus It's special now.
Was that one of the models made in China?
Yes, and they had alot of troublles with the top glass ( air bubbles inside) so they decided to stop producing in China. Now they are producing all their speakers in Italy again.
That is nice. But also extremely dissapointing. They always cutting cost on the crossover. Very frustrating. Dont think they cutting cost on the SF Aïda...
In curious about the Magnat transpuls 1500 what can be improved there 🤔
I sent in my transpuls 1500 crossover to Danny to map it out. You can email him if you want to upgrade the parts. You can add additional bracing, norez to cabinet and kilmat to the baskets of the drivers. Really improved the speaker.
@@Pete.across.the.street are they worth the upgrade? I bpught the speakers dirt cheap from somebody who did an 'upgrade' (ahum) to Bose. They dont sounding that airy like my simple SF Toy's. And that is a real bummer. Is it possible or are the speaker drivers not worth it?
@@Belinea1610 in my opinion, it's definitely worth it. Cut some 1x1s at 45 degree angles to brace the sides. Add norez the rest of the cabinet. Put clay on the back side of the tweeter horn. Add dynomat/killmat to the baskets of the woofer and mid. All that cleans up things a lot, it might be enough for you. The drivers are actually pretty good and you can get more out of them. There's only two caps and one coil in the tweeter path. You could start with that and see if you want to upgrade the rest.
It was a fun project for me. For the cost of the speaker plus upgrades you'd be hard pressed to find something that can beat it sound wise at the same price. But if build quality is important, it's still a cheap speaker cabinet and you might be better off just buying a better speaker.
@@Pete.across.the.street so it is because of the oriëntation of the tweeter that they sounding so narrow....
@@Belinea1610 I have a super wide soundstage with mine. It did take a long time to get the positioning right though.
Yeah, seen 15,000 dollar speakers showing off there crossovers with sand cast resistors
I love the sound of mine in stock form, wouldn't change a thing.
So you don't know what you are missing and don't care either.
@@dannyrichie9743 From my experience when you start messing with speakers then the next step is to buy better speakers.
@@minottauruss Unfortunately, unless you step up into a whole new price bracket then you just get more of the same. The upgrades often result in speakers that compete with models in the five figure range without getting near that price point.
@@dannyrichie9743 I don't know what I'm missing ? Are you sure ? I've been an audiophile and musician longer than you've probably been alive. I was building tube amps etc in the early 70's, also worked at a recording studio for more than two decades, still do. Had more very expensive audio components and gear than I could list. Don't know what I'm missing indeed.
@@dannyrichie9743 sounds like he don't wanna pay 259 bucks for a handful of caps and resistors, when what he has he's happy with.
I had bought about half a dozen sets of Sonus Faber speakers before these had come out. To me I felt like the company was heading in a different direction trying to make too much budget stuff available to the low end of the town. Looking at the crossover in that Venere, it is a obvious that it is a pale shadow of the former speakers.
Looking at it and judging construction and parts tells you nothing; all that matters is how it SOUNDS.
Try looking at Ucher audio speakers at 60.000.00
Would you throw in a sheet of NoRez for free?
No.
@@dannyrichie9743 ouch. that one hit me in the wallet
Frequency response ONLY shows the drivers capability to reproduce those signals.
Doesn't tell you how the speakers was Tuned to sound, Soundstage, Fidelity etc....
This channel is a ton of fun.
Thanks Danny, and thank you, Danny’s Audience
I've been paying close attention to what components go in the crossover in even high end speakers and I have to say I'm very disappointed that even high end speakers like Kef Blade and Reference use sand cast resistors and iron core inductors in their crossover. Kef Blade is a $32K speaker.
Of all the high end speakers I have been looking at only the current B&W 803, 802 & 801 are using quality components in their crossover but its a shame their tuning is s**t. Dynaudio confidence series also uses some Mundorf parts but even those speakers have sandcast resistors and iron core inductors.
Take a look/listen to the Tyler Acoustics line. Really well-designed and built, quality parts and drivers, beautiful cabinets, and great value for the money. And Danny had a hand in the crossover tuning of many of the models!
Have any of the critics ever asked the actual engineers of their design choices? Maybe there’s a reason for using those “budget” components in their specific applications. Using anything that carries the slightest risk of compromising sound quality in a high-end component is a bad decision even from a purely economic perspective.
@@gaborozorai3714 Usually the designers know the price point they are designing a particular speaker to upfront. I think most companies realize that the XO measures the same regardless of parts quality, and most customer's will buy on the basis of measurements and magazine reviews, so they cheap out on the parts. Most customers either don't have golden ears, or a wide enough frame of reference to really be able to tell the difference. Sad, but true....
@@gaborozorai3714 You have a fair point BUT the thing is if you read the white paper of high end speakers that are provided by manufacturers they always talk about the crossover and highlight that they are using high quality parts like air core inductors for their zero noise and distortion and quality inductors for low inductance and how air core is better than iron core in their own white paper plus the use of high purity cabling because at that level those things matter subjectively and objectively.
If the speaker is using high end WBT binding posts they are mentioned for their sonic purity and high quality copper.
Even between the 802D4 & 801D4 there is difference in the type of caps that are used. Both are using Mundorf caps but 801D4 gets the best caps that Mundorf makes.
Quality parts DO MATTER in a speaker and I can understand why even $5K speakers may have some cheesy parts in a crossover but at $30K-$35K. Come on!.
$30K speakers are life time purchases and for that price a customer expects high quality EVERYWHERE.
I would rather a speaker cost $35K rather than $32K and have the best parts in a
crossover than try to save $ by using cheap parts.
@@KirkLazurus What I am saying is that those "cheesy" parts may have been chosen for benefits other than financial when we are talking about a $20 difference in a $30k speaker. An iron core inductor for instance - and there are some pretty good quality ones out there - allows for fewer turns of large gauge wire to be used meaning lower impedance (maybe even less phase delay). Where high power handling and potential saturation of the iron core are not issues they may be the better choice. Until proven otherwise I like to give the engineers of reputable companies the benefit of the doubt.
Maybe a technical upgrade is a downgrade soundwise? Who says, that a flat curve is what Sonus Faber customers want?
Not a chance. It is not just about the frequency response either. Those cheap parts eat up the performance significantly.
I always find it discouraging when you are still having to improve on a quality monitor like this, Sonus Faber. I mean, they make some fantastic speakers (or so I thought) and this still needs to be improved.
Anything can be improved when you chuck money at it. The real question is does the sound difference justify the cost. We never really find out in these videos other than looking at the measurements, although I think there are a couple of before and after video reviews of Danny's upgrades out there.
Actually, these speakers measures really well before the upgrade. They are also widely critically acclaimed. So this is an example of a good speaker built to a price point (unlike a lot of the speakers Danny upgrade). Doesn't mean it won't be better after the upgrade. But a $259 component upgrade would translate to a ~1k price increase in retail.
Even their big $ stuff, never did it for me.
8ve seen bell wire and far cheaper crossovers in 10k speakers! Best thing is a zoble network cost a few dollars...
A zobel isn't going to change much in any way in this case.
All fur coat and no knickers as we say in England.
"you cant polish a turd" .....
Sounds good to me :-)
@@iggypopisgod9 literally the whole video he polishes the speaker.....
Well folks it's onion skin time , you know when all those men run around a field in Fluro T shirt & their Y fronts chasing a bag of wind.
Danial is going to have bigger bags under his eyes then the sizes of the suitcases his wife would take with them if they were going away for a dirty weekend in Vagas.
Enjoy THE GAME Danial
Kiwi Rod
So Danny you were able to upgrade these speakers for 250.00. I don’t know what your cost on those parts are but I would think you are selling at a mark up and making a profit. So why wouldn’t the manufacturer simply source out these better quality parts and raise the prices a tad to cover them and sell a better speaker to begin with?
Not trying to make light of your business Danny but to me it seems like a logical business practice! Heck, even if you have to add the additional 250 to the speakers MSRP it would still be worth it.
Just my 2 cents.
Sonos Faber might simply feel that expensive xo parts don't make enough of a difference at this price point to prioritize it over driver and cabinet quality. Upgrading it like this would probably mean ~1k increase in retail price, which is very significant.
You’re adding $250 to the cost of goods sold and expect the msrp to “only” increase by the same amount? Not likely. Try more like $750 more.
There is not a lot of profit in crossover parts. On average it is about 30%, but let's say that the manufacturer strikes a deal and buys huge quantities and gets the price of the parts used in this upgrade for $150. That $150 will add $750 to the retail price. So it is a lot cheaper to make upgrades like this in the aftermarket.
@@dannyrichie9743 how much did the old crossover parts cost? Surely it's the delta we should be talking about. The new parts may cost $150 but if the old parts cost the same or more then the overall cost to manufacture would be neutral or less. So no impact on retail cost unless you're suggesting the original crossover parts used were a lot less than $150. Interesting vid none the less.
@@asx1248 The cost of the original parts are in the $15 to $18 range in quantities, and maybe $24 at the most (for the pair).
I can't speak to Sonus Faber. I have found that some manufacturers only do high end materials on their top end lines and even outsource construction for volume to other countries on the low end line stuff. If you are one in 100,000 people with a low end purchase they likely care less as it's about volume to make any decent profit. The higher end stuff with larger profit margins but less people to buy them they have to use high end stuff. If they do not and try to dupe people worth millions to tens of millions or more those people can work to take those companies out of business. Consumers with lots of money when purchasing have power because they often have larger networks or knowing many people and other companies. I was looking at the new Aida 2. I will want to see internal parts now and construction and do a test run in my room before making a decision.
6:00 "But again, trying to keep this thing on a low as price point as possible".............
Sorry, but perhaps you'd care to rephrase that?
To my understanding this line is made in China. I have often wondered why Sonus faber would do this. I would guess strictly to make money with a less expensive speaker or to let a wider audience experience the Sonus faber line. I have 10 sets of Sonus faber speakers and I love them all. All of them are made in Italy. The sound and looks are really awesome. This fellow claims to make speakers sound better. Mostly by selling you parts that you don't really need to change the sound. Not really to make them better. Sonus faber has the Sonus faber voice that is beautiful. If you change parts you will no longer have the sound of Sonus faber. Grafs and electronic measurements don't do it for me. Especially when it comes to sound. You need to listen and make your choice of a speaker that sounds great to you. If your crosovers go bad then replace them if needed but otherwise don't change them. It seems silly to me.
It really doesn't work that way. The cheap parts are chosen because they're cheap, not because they create a house sound. The cheap parts smear the signal, flatten the sound stage, and eat up detail and resolution. That's a fact. The upgrade transforms it into a pretty nice speaker that is improved in all areas.
Also, your made in Italy models could use the same improvements.
I want a sound demo.........before and after.
That would be nice and a good idea. Just don’t hold your breath.
Saved as a compressed CZcams file and played back through your iphone? It is really hard to tell anything that way. You miss what the upgrade really brings to the table.
@@dannyrichie9743 Yep, but just talk is even worse.
@@rondegroot1508 Performance speaks for itself.
I think SF started going downhill, moving to a more 'lifestyle' kind of brand after Franco Serblin passed away.
👍👍🙏🙏
How can a company with such a reputation, make such a low end product?
Beats me
It's not a low end product. Not at all. But it is built to a price point. Then you have to make compromises, and at the end of the day, this speaker measures really well stock. Clearly, they prioritized cabinet and measured performance, not xo part quality.
It seems everything within 2000 bucks these days is made with cheap parts
After watching dozens of GR-Research videos I must admit I am a bit puzzled by this one. The crossover parts might be low cost, but the before and after are almost identical. There are barely any improvements in frequency response, both on and off axis. The spectral decay was already exemplary and the Impedance curve spike is still there with the upgraded parts. I looks to me that the engineers did a pretty good job saving money without compromising results.
The real improvements will be in clarity, detail levels, cleaner vocals, less cabinet resonances, better imaging, better sound stage layering, a deeper sound stage, and tighter bass response.
@@PaulSerat It is from a scammer. It happens all the time. We also report it every time it happens.
Very disappointed….no cheese🙁
Sorrry, but as anybody knows, a graph doesn't tell (almost) anything about the sound !
That shiny black plastic look is just awful, making it matte already improves it by 80%, unless it's a wood finish.
Well, yeah, and nothing compares to the Electra Amator, not even SF's top of the line systems, appearance wise, that is.
C'mon people! You all are chasing the perfect sound and it ain't out there .
For not a lot of money major improvements can be made.
Here we go again... It's the GR-Research 'Every Speaker Sucks' segment.
They do to varying degrees.He is just saying it like it is.
What kind of ignorant trolling bullshit comment is that? 1. Why "go there again" if you aren't interested? Who forces you to watch Danny's videos? 2. Do you have any idea what Danny's work is focused on?
@@spandel100 Not his speakers.... they're perfect. 😆
I’m a fan of sonus Faber but these are budget parts. You definitely don’t see this stuff in a Electa Amator.
@@jdavis234 I should fuking hope not.
Scotty Kilmer of hifi. "Everything sucks"
It’s, its, just too cheesy for the price
This and the lumina are a total ripoff and junk. My old NHT C3 measure and sound better for a FRACTION of the cost.
Ridiculous using so many cheap parts to get worse performance than fewer higher quality parts that COULD have been done for the same budget. Just to give people some idea, 11 components for this little 2-way is 2 more than Tekton Moab 3-way. That is lame.