Psilocybin, Depression, and Instagram Medical Advice
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- čas přidán 1. 12. 2022
- Recently, a big Instagram account posted some info about psilocybin mushrooms and depression, and we don't think they represented the limited evidence very accurately. And generally, don't make medical decisions based on Instagram posts.
Related HCT episodes:
Multivitamins and Cognition: • Can Daily Multivitamin...
Mushrooms and Mood: • Can Dosing with Psiloc...
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Yes, about time someone talked about this! One thing to be addressed, is that individuals may respond differently, so I'd like to know more about the effect sizes. If some people made drastic improvements, while others showed no improvement, that's quite different than if most participants had mild/moderate improvement.
I didn't listen to this video, but did read the study and if memory is correct, it was 2.5 g spaced 2 weeks apart. Participants wore a sleep mask and headphones with the John's Hopkins psychedelic playlist playing for 7.5 hours (you can download on Spotify or Apple music).
I know multiple people on different antidepressants at the moment. And the one thing they all have in common are multiple horror stories about unmanageable and sometimes permanently disabling side effects. As well as catastrophic withdrawal symptoms when their doctor changes their meds to try to relieve those side effects. If psilocybin works no better than existing drugs but has less unpleasant side effects and less withdrawal symptoms then it would still seem to be a great option
Whatever works. I’ve been on esci for years with zero side effects.
I agree, but that's a big "If".
I was on escitalopram for 10 years and that is definitely not how I thought it was pronounced
That's not how it's actually pronounced.
Thanks!
Aw I got all excited for minute
I keep telling people that there are natural resources that works and don’t have side effects, I recommend you try out psychedelic mushroom, micro dosing psychedelic mushroom was the best decision I made to beat depression , not only ketamine makes you feel like a zombie with no emotions but other antidepressants that don’t work a bit, you should definitely try psychedelic mushroom, I had depression and anxiety but after treating myself with psychedelic mushroom I was more efficient in all I did , I’m in my 40’s and I’m breaking barriers, the stigma and access to it has been difficult for people that need it I get it from an online vendor that specializes in the trade of psychedelic products all natural from the earth and no side effects , everyone show start looking on the bright side of things that works and not feeding the never ending pockets of pharmaceutical companies
*Wellmans11*
@@fifab82this is over a year after treatment with micro dosing psychedelic mushroom for 6 weeks and spent less than $2000 , no side effects from it and haven’t had an episode of panic attack or depression ever since
Lol. Promoting the Instagram account right after the video poking fun at it. How's the business working out for you?
@@drinkwalter9346 $2000 for 6 weeks? And that's a deal? Right.
@@realhumanist71 you think it’s not a good deal? Do you know how much is a ketamine treatment?… no you don’t
what we need, isn't someone saying that new treatment works or kills you, we need evidence
Bold of you to assume that ssris actually treat patients with depression.
One week after my first encounter with mushrooms. My life felt like a rebirth. I was a depressed asshole. I really have felt total happiness since. I really hope it lasts
*[Pharmstain]* ««« is a psych store that Dispense Ket MDMA, ket, Lsd, Dmt, 2cb, Shrooms, Exotics and other psychs safely too your location. Been coping for like a year now, Very reliable an ship discreetly anywhere also guides newbies on dosages?"
Operate on Telegrams and Instagrams.
There is a great deal of anecdotal evidence for psychedelics being able to relieve depression and anxiety. Personally I found that after one tab of LSD my anxiety was greatly reduced for weeks afterwards.
I read a study that lasts 20 years
Anecdotes aren't evidence. People tend to count the hits and ignore the misses. You're not going to hear many anecdotes when something *doesn't* work, just when it did. It also doesn't take into account the placebo effect.
@@OntheOutskirts Can you find it?
Yeah, thank God "anecdotal evidence" is not considered science anymore
Ummm you don't think there's a difference between LSD and psilocybin? The anecdotal evidence is being taken seriously, that's why it's being studied 🙄, but we need more evidence. If we only used anecdotal accounts, we'd still be treating patients with blood-letting.
I hope you revisit this topic soon. Newer studies have been published with more promising results.
AISHA
ARE U ARABIC OR WHAT?
Why the hell aren't there more studies? There seems to be a lot of possibilities with these kinds of substances, so I don't understand why more aren't jumping on this research.
big pharma wants you to buy their pills for the rest of ur life to make a profi so they are not interested at any more studies on psilocybin.
We definitely need much more extensive research. I have a 10yo son with a multitude of mental health issues. I'm not willing to try any of these potential remedies without a lot more research. But I'm hopeful he can benefit from new treatments when he reaches adulthood.
I know what you mean. I've had depression and other issues for a long time. I'm hopeful that Ketamine might actually help, but not just in the short term which is appears it *might*.
My heart goes out to you and your son!
I trust you’re employing lots of outdoor exercise and minimal fast food/sugar& screen time/tv.
I meant to add that I'm sorry about your son. It's hard for anyone to deal with mental issues, but for a child, that's hard for them and their family. I hope you can get him the help he needs. And make sure you take care of yourself, too.
Good luck to your little one. As someone that has been struggling with depression for over 15 years, I know how frustrating it can be. I'm glad you are supportive. I also really want to say that in regards to mental health, there are a lot of overlapping symptoms, so it is possible that depression is only a single part of the greater issue. I had been going to doctors and therapists for over a decade before anybody realized that depression was only one of the mental health issues I was suffering from. I can't help but think that I would have been in much better shape today if somebody had noticed this years earlier. Just being asked questions as a doctor runs through a checklist doesn't help, as it can be really hard to put into words what you feel, and as young as he is, he might not be experienced enough to recognize whether something he is feeling is normal or not. I was always a loner without any real friends, so I didn't really understand that the anxiety or concentration issues I would experience were abnormal. A therapist needs to sit down with him, make him feel comfortable enough to open up, and really get to know him well in order to give the best diagnosis. My heartfelt wishes to you and your son.
@@TheRustyLM Actually doing exactly that. We’re in Colorado so we spend a lot of time in the mountains. It helps a lot.
Hey Aaron.
I think there is a major misrepresentation in this video of the current research.
You rightly quote the study critiquing brainwide association studies (BWAS), which measure the correlation between brain structure/brain activity within and between functional networks and symptoms/clinical presentation/traits. These are one-time measurements and do require thousands of participants.
But I believe that you are doing the medical community a disservice by not mentioning that the psilocybin studies did not use the BWAS approach, but compared intra-individual changes before and after psilocybin consumption (=an intervention, measured longitudinally) and especially by not quoting the BWAS study fully (relevant parts capitalized):
"Using non-BWAS approaches, many fundamental links between the human brain and behaviour have been uncovered and replicated in small neuroimaging samples. WITHIN-PERSON DESIGNS (for example, LONGITUDINAL), studies with induced effects (for example, lesions or tasks), or both (for example, INTERVENTIONS) frequently have increased measurement reliability and effect sizes. ... In many cases, within-person, induced-effects approaches are not only cost-effective, but also most relevant to clinical care. Thus, small-sample neuroimaging will always be critical for studying the human brain."
Also, you critisised the psilocybin studies for their small sample size (n=22 Psilocybin/21 Escitalopram).
Again, from the BWAS study:
"Neuroimaging-only studies are typically adequately powered at small sample sizes. For example, central tendencies of human functional brain organization among groups can be accurately represented by averaging within small samples (that is, n = 25)".
Am I wrong in seeing the situation this way?
I'd love to hear your input.
To all the comments saying "it worked for me", I guess I'll spare you my NEGATIVE anecdote. But, some of those people who it didn't work for died from their illness, while refusing to take antidepressants because they aren't "natural" and are vilified by the wellness community.
They didn't die from their illness bcos they stop taking the antidepressants.. They die from the side effects of the antidepressants. Everyone should have a choice of chosen a treatment for themselves
Do butt pillows that say they fix your sitting posture work? Do bras that say they fix your posture help? I’m guessing no, based on the lack of research your videos have taught me to look for, but I’m still not great at doing it myself honestly. I’m assuming they’re the whole standing desk thing rebooted. I workout and stretch but still I’d love for these to work. Still, I want as little of my money going to snake oil as possible.
Look up to that handle, he ships and sells psychedelics globally
anecdotal: for myself psychedelics can help with my depression/anxiety but you have to be pretty open about the experience. also anecdotally I've known people who have taken mushrooms who seem to not be changed by it. For me prescription medication works better for day to day anxiety, but leaves me with an increased likelihood of a migraine. anyone telling you that your depression will be helped my mushrooms are probably using their own experiences to sell you on a treatment. Try meditation and self reflection first.
I mean that's great and all, but if you have to believe it's going to work for it to work then how do you tell the difference between it actually working and the placebo effect?
@@realhumanist71 It's not about believing it's going to work it's more about being open to work through things... If I go to a therapist and don't take it seriously then It's not going to work as well as it would if I went in willing to be vulnerable. A lot of people think that the drugs will do all the work for them, when that's not the case. It's hard to describe the state psychedelics can put you in, but they seem to allow for you to "see" yourself the way you are and not the way you normally see yourself. once that layer of ego is removed you can start making connections that you otherwise wouldn't make because it can be emotionally difficult to make the connections. It's almost impossible to talk about the benefits of psychedelics without coming across as a crazy person who doesn't understand the scientific method, but I think we just don't understand the basics of psychology well enough to put forward theories of what exactly psychedelics do to your psyche.
OMG, my brother did more meditation and self reflection than anyone I know, and he'd tried psychedelics too. Didn't save his life. His girlfriend actively discouraged him from prescription drugs, even after having suicidal ideation. Please, doctor, tell me how you would have fixed him. What we need to fix is our healthcare system, but instead people are fixated on finding a miracle cure.
@@SolitaryCurve6985 I'm sorry about your brother. A friend of mine attended the funeral of someone who killed themself. He had bipolar disorder and was given advice to quit his prescribed medication and take natural supplements instead.
@@realhumanist71 thanks, I appreciate that. I don't really blame anyone, but it's difficult when I know that myself and others have been helped by psychiatry, yet he never tried it, and we'll never know if he could have been helped.
I'm glad you revisited this particular study, since last time you addressed the topic this study was covered briefly to the point of disappointing. I was really hoping you would have talked more about the discussion within the study here (rates of complete remission of symptoms were higher in the psilocyin group), and the idea that the psilocybin treatment was once every 3 weeks (besides daily placebos) vs the antidepressant pill daily. Also, your word choice seems to focus on conveying that we can't say psilocybin is better than escitalopram (negative/neutral framing) vs stating that it appears to be equally effective (positive/neutral framing). I'm all for cautioning when there isn't enough robust research, but I'd appreciate when the research that's available (albeit underpowered) is presented beyond the abstract or cherry picking just the MRI timing part. For all of your videos, providing the study doi or link in the description section would also promote your viewers to read the studies, since your goal here is health literacy.
I agree with your view. I believe this video is quite biased against the current research. I also commented how I believe the BWAS-critiquing study specifically agrees with the study protocol used by Daws et al., and by misquoting it Aaron and the Triage team are hurting their credibility long-term.
@@duschinger Honestly, deep diving into this channel reveals a lot of Aaron's biases; I guess some people just can't let got of those Nixonian-Reaganic atavisms.
I'm a clinical therapist and 100% agree with you.
Please do a video on kedamine
Here's one! czcams.com/video/d5cHVqaHLIU/video.html
Beware the Wellness crowd.
One thing to note is that, since escitalopram is definitely effective, psilocybin not being significantly better does not mean that psylocybin isn't effective (and may mean the opposite).
Do you have a link to a study?
@@realhumanist71 "Trial of Psilocybin versus Escitalopram for Depression" by Carhart-Harris, et al.
It is on Pubmed and NEJM.
@@Jayceearegee Thank you. I'm not sure why we would use a treatment that isn't significantly better since antidepressants have been studied longer. They can have side effects but we don't know what the side effects of long-term psilocybin use might be. The study only looked at results 6-weeks later, as well. So do we know if psilocybin works in the longer term as well, better or worse? The study also notes the size and short trial length as limitations. So, while you may not be wrong with your statement, the effectiveness is possibly only short-term.
@@realhumanist71 While indeed there is no modern scientific study on the long term efficacy of psilocybin specifically for depression, psilocybin's therapeutical effects have been studied in the context of addiction: Matthew Johnson et al ran a study for smoking cessation, and two to three doses of psilocybin were enough to achieve a 12 month period of smoking cessation for 67% of the patients.
Additionally, classical (i.e., serotoninergic) psychedelics increase the expression of Brain Derived Neurotrophic Factor (BDNF), as per demonstrated by Calvin Ly et al in 2018, and Nadia hutten et al in 2020; the increase in BDNF results in increased neuroplasticity and neuritogenesis, all of the aforementioned is decreased on depressed patients (Y. Dwivedi et al 2009, B. Arosio et al 2021).
These are just two contexts in which there is clear evidence for psychedelic therapy as being the logical next step, and if I am allowed to cut the pedantic bs, I might just add that psychedelic science is held back thanks to Nixonian and Reaganian atavisms. This works, it's just taking forever to put it on fancy journal papers because we are forced to walk with one foot nailed down thanks to ye olde trick of spreading misinformation demonizing that which is even remotely iconoclastic.
I mean, Albert Hofmann lived 102 years after all, surely he might have been onto something, right?
@@Jayceearegee Thanks for the information. I'll have to look into it. I could see it possibly helping with addiction. Although I believe that addiction has less to do with chemicals than the context the person is living in. In other words, fix what led them to the addiction and it'll be far easier for them to quit. Don't fix it, and they'll like to go back to it. I'm certainly not saying there isn't a physical/neurological addiction to many substances, too. Especially with opiate addictions coming from original or even ongoing pain.
I'm sure you realize that the last claim is a bad argument. There are people who have lived into their 90s who have smoked and excessively drank all their lives. I don't think they were onto something either. Some people just have great genes. Some people just have better lives and better access to healthcare, family support, etc.
Worked for me. I'm a much happier and more productive person post mushroom experience.
Well, that's all the evidence I need. It worked for somebody. Must be legit.
@@realhumanist71 worked for me also. There you go, two people.
@@jiggybish Two people! Awesome. Now just make sure you took the same amount, adjust for confounding factors, compare to a placebo group, make sure that you have at least the two usual genders and a cross-section of races, and you got yourself a real study there. :) But it might be hard to do those things with only two people and have any reliability in the results. Maybe if you're both of mixed heritage and one of you is a woman and the other a man...But I see a man and a cat. Cute cat, though. :)
@@realhumanist71 you're an anti vaxxer, aren't you?
@@jiggybish How the heck did you get that from what I've said? It's irrelevant but to satisfy your curiosity, I've fully vaccinated in everything that is recommended. I believe in the scientific method. But I'm not sure if you do based on how you think.
The way you mispronounce escitalopram doesn’t instill confidence. Why only look at one study?
Where do you get your pronunciation from? I'm curious. And I think he's looked at more than one study. There are other videos.
I must admit that "Uberfacts" is a very appealing and marketable name.
It seems to me a quicker acting antidepressant is a major plus.
how weird, I was just talking about escitalopram earlier today
that's not how you pronounce "escitalopram"...
He's a doctor. I think he'd know. Are you one?
@@realhumanist71 Yes
@@pluckernil Interesting. Is it possible that two doctors could pronounce a medication differently? Possibly because they're from different countries or different ethnic backgrounds? There must be a pronunciation guide somewhere that you could link to perhaps?
@@realhumanist71 The "es" in escitalopram refers to the (S)-enantiomer of citalopram, which otherwise exists in a racemic mixture of (S)- and (R)-enantiomers in citalopram. A quick Google search of "escitalopram pronunciation" will bring up the correct way to say the name of this medication.
@@pluckernil Thanks for the info. Perhaps he hasn't prescribed it before. I'm sure there are so medications that doctors can't know them all or pronounce some of them. I don't think it means anything other than he's wrong. I'm not suggesting you're saying it is. I just know some people might interpret a mispronounced word (or accented word) that way, that the person saying it is uninformed.
All the people reflexively typing "but it worked for me" need to stop. You're not going to change the fact that your personal experience is not evidence of effective treatment. Stop.
And studies are funded by people and corporations with self-interest in mind. Anecdotal evidence isn't scientific but a lot of studies are compromised as much and hide under the guise of legitimate clinical studies.
@@paularbelaez4742 All studies have to provide information about their funders and any conflicts of interest so scientists or anyone, really, can decide for themselves. Does it still happen? Sure. But it's usually found out. To assume that somehow "it worked for me" is on a higher plane than clinical studies is preposterous. Even if 90% of the studies were bad, it'd still be better than that.
Why? There's plenty of research on escitalopram and it's still only effective 40 (ish) percent of the time. Everything is anecdotal until proper research is carried out, so for some people, particularly those whom SSRI treatments are not successful, this is another potential option for them. And of course because this channel is so anti weed and mushroom he is only going to refer to ONE study and ignore the fact that there have actually been studies done on psychedelics for decades with overwhelming promise that absolutely warrants larger trials and more funding.
@@lklk5140 cool info. Can you back up some it?
Worked for me. 4 years depression free.
The thing I got from that study as you reported it is that the psilocybin is as good as the antidepressant. At that point then it would be interesting to know if it has less side effects or at least lower chances of serious side effects.
Personally when it comes to medication, I am very interested in the side effects, even if the medication is slightlt less effective but has much less side effects I prefer it. For instance more my allergy medication I switched to Allegra because although it wasn't as effective overall for me, it did not make me feel like I wanted to sleep all day.
@
Epic_rawbert
Through Instagram or Telegram
Has you sorted, From mushrooms to DMT and LSD, they've got it all. Plus, they ship to all locations! ❤️
I think psylocibin alone can't have the desired treatment effects on depression, especially not to the degree where it'll be perscribed medically. What does show promise is psylocibin + psychotherapy and to me is honestly going to be the future of psychiatry
It's such a shame that research has been hindered for decades by the drug war. What an absolute waste.
Where do you see this promise? Is there a study that shows a significantly better outcome? I've had long-term depression so if it works, I'd like to know that. Although, I wouldn't get them illegally because of the dosage issue and who knows what else you might get with it. But if it's effective, it should become a legal treatment down the road.
Definitely don't get your medical advice from Instagram.... get it from CZcams instead?
Earlier studies double blind with more than a thousand (some including FMRI) show it's better at treating more than just depression, also something not mentioned.
A lot of bad science out there to be fair... We have a simple system to test yet are unable to keep it consistent, fucking wild...
What earlier studies? What kind of studies were they? Were they RCTs? Were they in open access journals? So many people making claims on here about studies but nobody will link any.
@@realhumanist71 Ok John's Hopkins, Compass (233 patients in their phase 2b trial), and MAPS didn't have as much per phase as I thought. Overall thousands of DB studies. I study Ayahuasca more at this point so I was a little rusty on my info. You're right about people claiming it cures all like with cannabis (which is also an amazing) chemical if used right...
@@thekopvp Could you link to that study directly? I've searched for "John Hopkin's Compass Psilocybin" and received two results but they're both much lower numbers of patients and both in the context of also receiving psychotherapy. But obviously, neither of these are the one you saw.
God, spambots are so annoying. And so stupid. You're not going to get many customers after a video that suggests your product doesn't work. lol
Not to mention, nobody with half a brain is ordering their narcotics on insta - too much chance of scam or LEO
so funny. the first paper: psilocybin works as well as escitalopram. Second paper: psilocybin works BETTER than escitalopram. Aaron: it's hard to say what's true since these results don't match each other. Also, it takes escitalopram 2 months to kick in, so we need to give it more time... ME: yeah. so you're saying that the psilocybin works at least as well, and works faster. Oh, and also it won't give you erectile dysfunction or make you gain weight? Yeah, we definitely don't have enough information to start coming to conclusions... sigh.
I think it's important to keep in mind that the claim Aaron is addressing is that psilocybin is clearly better than antidepressants. He's not saying don't eat magic mushrooms, he's saying be cautious with your expectations.
@@hexramdass2644 Sure. I just see him glossing over the delay time as being a VERY negative aspect of antidepressants, even before you start to consider the negative side effects, most of which have much shorter delay tones before their onset. This leads to the situation where a psychiatrist terms the patient to “just hang on a few more weeks” all while they are being harmed by the medication, with quite possibly no significant benefit to be gained. And let’s not forget that you can still get withdrawal symptoms from the antidepressants, even if they never did you any good. All in all given my personal experience, I would prefer to be prescribed a placebo rather than an antidepressant. At least that way I would know the only harm is my time being wasted.
@@ahgflyguy Honestly, deep diving into this channel reveals a lot of Aaron's biases; I guess some people just can't let got of those Nixonian-Reaganic atavisms.
I fully agree.
I've taken antidepressants and after a long time of taking them I thought "maybe I kinda feel better but I don't know, I can't really tell." Then I tried psilocybin; You feel better immediately and it's an obvious, long lasting difference. Do the studies, sure, but psilocybin works. No doubt about it.
An n of 1 isn't proof of anything except possibly... just possibly... it works for you. You're not everybody. It could be a placebo effect, it could be that the experience of being high gave you some insight into what was making you depressed, something that you could easily change. "Do the studies but... it works... no doubt about it." Why bother with studies if you're sure it works. Obviously, that's enough, right?
@@realhumanist71 the studies are for you. I know it works because it is apparent and obvious.
@@jiggybish No reason to do studies on anything then. As long as somebody thinks it's apparent and obvious. To many people, ghosts are apparent and obvious. And so is believing in Santa Claus as a child. I mean, he's supposed to bring presents. And he does. Therefore, Santa Claus is apparent and obvious. Not very logical thinking there. Are you on mushrooms right now? No judgement. :)
@@realhumanist71 I mean, if you tell me you have a penis, I'll believe you. We don't need to put it under a microscope so the rest of us can see it.
I agree with this statement. I’m glad you are feeling better too! 😅