440 Chrysler Mopar Engine Building Part 7 Oil Pump Cleaning and Installation
Vložit
- čas přidán 30. 07. 2024
- Cleaning, priming, and installing the oil pump on the 440 Chrysler Mopar
automotive engines diagnosis repair rebuilding
automotive engines diagnosis repair rebuilding pdf
best book for rebuilding engines
books on how to build engines
books on rebuilding car engines
books on rebuilding engines
chevy performance engines
crate engines vs rebuilding engine
ford performance engines
gm performance engines
guide to rebuilding engines
high performance engines
how to build 4.6 ford engines
how to build a car engine at home
how to build a car engine for dummies
how to build a car engine from scratch book
how to build a car engine step by step
how to build a car engines
how to build a custom car engine
how to build a fast car engine
how to build and modify gm chevrolet engines
how to build and modify gm ls-series engines
how to build big block chevy engines
how to build big block ford engines
how to build big-inch gm ls-series engines
how to build buick engines
how to build car engine from scratch
how to build car engines
how to build chevy engines
how to build classic hot rod v8 engines
how to build clone racing engines
how to build drag race engines
how to build ford engines
how to build ford fe engines
how to build high performance chrysler engines
how to build high performance engines
how to build high performance pontiac engines
how to build high torque engines
how to build honda engines
how to build killer big-block chevy engines
how to build max-performance ford 5.0 coyote engines
how to build max-performance ford fe engines download
how to build small-block ford racing engines
how to build your first car engine
how to build your own car engine from scratch
how to remove carbon buildup in engines
performance crate engines
rebuilding alfa romeo engines
rebuilding audi engines
rebuilding auto engines
rebuilding big block chevy engines
rebuilding bmw engines
rebuilding boat engines
rebuilding car engines
rebuilding chevy big block engines
rebuilding chevy engines
rebuilding classic car engines
rebuilding diesel engines
rebuilding diesel engines cost
rebuilding engines for a living
rebuilding engines for dummies
rebuilding ford big block engines
rebuilding ford engines
rebuilding ford fe engines
rebuilding g35 engines
rebuilding gm ls engines
rebuilding small block ford engines
tools for rebuilding engines - Auta a dopravní prostředky
I can attest to the necessity to open up and clean and de-burr a new oil pump...failed to do it on a fresh 383 Mopar build 17 years ago and promptly trashed a main bearing/journal and adjacent rod bearing upon initial start-up. Shot metal through the whole engine, and didn't even know it until I drained the oil after the 20 minute cam break-in! Had to pull the engine, send back to machine shop for a complete do over! Was not their fault since I only had them do short block and heads separate, and I assembled (including oil pump!) myself. We determined there must have been a piece of trash in the new pump itself that immediately shot to that main journal. Can you say "learning curve!" Learned my lesson! Thanks for this video, great lesson.
That really sucks. I learned the same lesson which is why I always check. It does not take long and it's worth the piece of mind
Well articulated. The oil pump is the equivalent of the human heart so you are bang on to highlight the importance of putting that little extra but precious time into it. I have an all original 1968 Coronet in my garage awaiting some time for me to do the upgrades. I will be rebuilding a 440 for it over the coming winter and will be using several of your tips including this oil pump one. Great video series.
Awesome car! Good luck with it!
Lots of wisdom in your videos every time!
I try to make videos that are helpful, not just for the hell of a video.
Hi Pete! once again i preshade the things you show me and increase my knowledge the importancy off cleaning a NEW oilpump. Thanks
Thank you for watching my friend.
Your very much welcome and thanks for the time you share with us here
Great video and really good for showing how to prime an oil pump!!!!! I bought a high-volume oil pump for my HOLDEN V8 here in Australia which is an external type like the Hemi. I used a Dremel to clean up the machine marks and polish the oil hole ports to a mirror finish. Make for better flow and less parasite drag I believe. Finally, I now know how to prime/pack the pump for immediate oil pressure, especially that I have a new Camshaft/lifters run in along with a new Holley Sniper going on. The old camshaft failed missing three lobes thanks to three lifters going to south. No ZINC really hurt the camshaft badly in a flat tappet design.
Polishing is a good idea, as long as you can maintain the vacuum. Gotta have zinc for a flat tappet. Thanks Mick
It's a nice feeling when you fire it up for the first time after a nicely finished build. I used do all this 40 years ago and gear boxes
It's always a rush to hear it start up
Good info on cleaning the pump and putting petroleum jelly to prime.
Works every time
Great videos Pete thank you so much for uploading this I’m building a 505 stroker and I’m going to do the same thing
...and it looks awesome so far!
Hey Pete, really good info mate. I live in Australia and we don't often see 440's getting around. I've just bought one for my Valiant sedan, so this information is invaluable to people like me, great channel, great and clear information. I read a lot of picky comments but i for one want to say thanks, good work. i know how hard it is to film, edit, and post regularly for free also while working a full time job, so i appreciate the quality info, cheers from Australia, Queensland. Loges
That's awesome my friend, thank you for making my day!
Pete you do good work
Thank you Dave
Love this channel!
Glad you enjoy it!
Do you still jam the pump full of vaseline if you're going to prime the oiling system with a pirming rod and drill?
I do
Another great video
Thanks my friend
many years ago my dad had a high milage 1977 new yorker 440. he had the car up on jackstands to drained the oil to change oil. when the oil was out mom said it was lunch time. when dad got the oil changed the pump would not prime. with the reg drill motor we used for that 600 RPM. he had to jury rig a 1300 rpm motor to prime the pump.
Interesting, must have been worn out.
Did he put 6-7qts of rearend gear oil in it? Im just f ing with ya, we had the same problem with a 440 in a 71' roadrunner was stock never rebuilt, this was in 92' put 20w50 in it, had 160,000+ miles and wouldnt prime, first time I seen an oil pump rebuilt, took a pump laying in one of the other 440's in shop and rebuilt it, he actually polished up internals and modified/ machined the gears to flow with less resistance, worked great, then a week later we pulled it out to rebuild the motor.
Thanks again Pete. 👍🏻 noticed you lost a o-ring at 2:13 👌🏻. Also the pumps gear looks like the Geneva drive design almost, same type they use in old projectors and in CNC Machines 👍🏻 really cool to see
Yeah, that one rolled away. There are new ones in the gasket set. Interesting pump info
Pete's Garage thanks Pete for your detailed hard work. 👍🏻
Hi Pete, I noticed on your oil pump video you had a deep oil pan on the engine. I use the same oil pan on my 440 that I just installed in my GTX. I noticed that it hangs down below the K member about 2 inches. Its likely to be the first thing hit by a foreign object or grinding it on a bump. Do you know what people do to keep this low hanging pan from being damaged? Any advice you can provide would be appreciated.
I've seen scuff plates added to the front cross member.
A scuff plate. Thats about all I could imagine to keep the pan safe. Thanks for the reply....
Campbase P
Can you use the petroleum jelly to rebuild a power steering pump? I was told to use transmission lube but was thinking maybe the jelly will dissolve in the power steering fluid as well.
I would say probably not since there is no filter, but try to dissolve the together and if it works give it a try.
Thank you for the walk thru. I just bought a 1970 Roadrunner with a 383. I don't think im getting oil pressure. Are they they same design? Can you turn the distributor to build pressure?
You have to turn the crank while turning the oil pump
@@PetesGarage Do you turn the oil pump by removing the distributor only, or is there another way? My engine does crank and start.
Yes
@@PetesGarage Thank you for responding. I figured it out. Someone before me left a shop rag in the oil pan. I cant make that up, 😂. Now I need parts. Oil pan gasket and oil pump seal kit, which im havin a hard time finding. I need the pump gasket and 3 o-rings. Any suggestions?
@@PetesGarage I got the parts. Summit has everything.
When you torque down the bolts, do you get the values from the engine manufacturer? Are you using aftermarket bolts and get the values from the bolt manufacturer?
I am using ARP bolts and they provide a torque spec.
I need to replace the rubber O ring seals on the oil pump on a 440. I got all he bolts out of the pump but I can't get the pump to move.
It's like glued on there or something. Any tips on breaking it lose?
Start tapping with a mallet first
@@PetesGarage It's off. I ended up using a steel pipe as leverage on the subframe so I could rotate it. Thanks anyway.
That will work too...lol
Love this series :) I know you put petroleum jelly in the pump to create vacuum but I noticed you also lubed up the o rings with it. I always thought that patroleum was harmful to the rubber and silicone was safer? What are your thoughts on it?
Very good point. The o-ring is made out of Nitrile (buna-n) which has excellent resistance to petroleum products.
Good to know, thanks :)
Hi Pete from Perth Australia..great channel buddy..currently building a 440 from a us motorhome ..just wanted advice ..if i am going to manually prime the oil with a priming tool before first start ..is the petroleum jelly still necessary to pack that much in..and can it clog or block any oil ports ..TIA ..
You can certainly prime without it. It does make it easier
@PetesGarage thanks ..look forward to your awesome content ..be great to see a video of a initial start of a hp engine 👊
How do I adjust a valve when the rocker arm bolts has no set nut and if I leave any slack the rocker arm bolt rocks in it's threads.
Tighten the rocker shaft and forget it, they are hydraulic lifters with zero lash
I always level the mating surfaces with mine and also do a little smoothing out of the oil flow passages. So pretty much ''blue print'' the pump. You can get some nasty looking casting flash inside new pumps.
That's a great idea. You can always do better than what is considered "stock".
Did you use an ultra sonic to clean the parts or just clean solvent.
I use solvent to clean and blow them out.
Hey Pete, great info on that oil pump. You're build has been helpful for my 400 big block 74 Dodge Charger. What was the torque specs for the oil pump? thanks!
The bolts are standard 3/8" ARP bolts so they get 45 ft lbs
That's crazy how dirty it is. Good info. And I'm no mechanic.
I've never had an engine fail because it was too clean.
Edit: (i forgot to thank you for the video! Very informative! I will probably be using alot of your vids to help with my project)
Bit of a semingly weird question but i want to replace my 52 year old 383 Chrysler oil pump on a c-body boat. im aware its a similar part if not the same but my question is do i absolutely have to remove the entire engine to replace this with a high volume? Again it seems like a dumb question im assuming it would be best to do so.
I can see the bolts where it is located and can get to them so im curious if i dont have to yet.
If you can get to the bolts and have clearance to properly clean the gasket surface leave the motor in.
Pete I've got a 440 and Everytime l change the oil the pump loses prime and l gotta pack with white grease to get it back any suggestions?
The pickup tube may be loose
moe to steve. put a new pump in it. its very easy.
@@moeshouse575 no that's not it! Lol j k
Hey Pete, I've got a 67 440 on my old Imperial that I am going to change the oil pump on this weekend. It has 71,000 miles on it, but it sat for 19 years. My question is, My oil pan is stock, but the oil pump I just bought is a High Volume oil pump. The engine has not been rebuilt, and I am also going to replace the valley pan this weekend. But anyway, do you think it will be okay? I'm not racing it or anything, but I read that having a high volume oil pump can be quite helpful to old engines with the oil used today. I usually use Valvoline conventional 10W-30.
I would use just a standard oil pump for a stock engine. A high volume can pump out a stock oil pan. If you need pressure use 40 weight oil instead of 30
I 2nd what Pete said
@@Moparmaga-1 Thank you both. This is my sunny Sunday project. 😁
@@theguppy3663 cool, very fun! Enjoy.. I have a project I've been dying to get started on for the last 2 year's (1970 dart swinger 471 stroker big block conversion )
@@Moparmaga-1 70 was the best year for EVERYTHING. Have fun with your project! I have a 67' Imperial Crown Coupe. Number 409 out of 3,235. 😁 He hasn't let me down yet. ♥️
My bonestock. 4.3 rocker arm bolts have no adjustment nuts and when I leave any play the nuts Rock inside their threads what should I do
Those are made without adjustment, none should be necessary
Does the gear come out too, when distributor is out, to prime?
Yes
When do you use a high volume vs. standard oil pump? Can you explain.
When you go to a higher HP, you need more oil flow to help remove the heat and keep the top end lubed. If you install performance parts like a cam and stroker crank, you want more volume.
I would add that caution should be exercised when using a HV pump, especially with a stock capacity oil pan. There is then a risk of sucking the pan dry at high rpm. So like Pete's eng, a deep sump pan is a must for HV pumps. The main benefit of the HV pump is hot oil pressure at lower RPM, So if you run high bearing clearances, full groove bearings or your eng is a bleeder/leaker (internally) HV may be for you. Also bronze gear setups are not as robust. If I were running a roller cam/bronze gear, I'd probably try to do without the HV pump to reduce the load on the gear. Lastly in some cases the extra load has caused spark scatter, because the oil pump drive shaft turns the distributer also and can twist back and forth effecting your ignition timing.
@@PetesGarage is that a external oil pump u would use with a 534 stroker?
Meant 543 stroker
Hey Pete, I have a similar pan and want to paint it. I am not sure what the treatment is on it, so any idea how I should go about painting it?
Scuff it with a scotch brite pad, clean it really well, and use either a rattle can engine paint, or a spray engine paint like the Eastwood 2k.
Thanks Pete. I don't know what I did wrong or if something was put on it from the manufacturer, but I did scuff it when I bought it and painted it with Rustoleum after cleaning it off with acetone. It looked great for about three weeks and then all started flaking off.. I'll try again.
Use a metal etch epoxy primer
@@PetesGarage Hey Pete. It's been ages and I still have not fired my 440, but I am working on it a bit at a time. It really sucks having a bad back. Anywho, I sanded off what was left of the paint and washed it down with acetone and etch primed and painted it. That was months ago and it looks like this time the paint might just stick!! I don't know why it peeled off before. These are my common steps, but I normally don't buy pans with any treatment on them. Going to clean out the Mellings pump soon and paint and install it. I saw someone else mentioned about the pump to block area needing to be ground better. That is also something I've always done and had great luck with. Hope you had great holidays, buddy!!
know all about the jelly!!!!
Can't beat it
Pete are you familiar with the herb mccandless oil passage mods ?
Yes, they can help
What do you think could cause an engine to have good start up oil pressure ( 60 psi ) then fall off to 20 psi at operating temperature ?
Very loose bearings or worn oil pump. Put straight 30 weight in it.
Dang I have the same problem, poor man's rebuild IE ball honed the cylinders, new rings, cam, lifters, bearing, with a high volume pump, 70 PSI with mechanical gauge drops to zero at 200 degrees running full synthetic oil. I was getting ready to tear the whole thing out and start over.
im already using full 20/50
You could have a loose galley plug or just excessive clearances in everything from the bearings to the lifters
Please let it be the first LOL.
Lifters are called Crower Cam savers, the buddy who helped build the engine is a big Dodge guy recommended them.
I've lost access to the shop where we did the swap and pulling an engine in a dirt driveway wouldn't be fun!
Thanks for the ideas
Hey Pete. I have a Chrysler 400ci sitting in my 66 Charger. I've recently started getting low oil pressure readings on my gauge. I suspect that it needs a new oil pump but a friend suggested changing the 'oil pressure switch' on first.
Question is: Does a Chrysler 400ci have an Oil Pressure Switch? If so, where would it be located?
Thanks, Nick
You can change the spring or check it out, it's located in the oil pump. I believe a stiffer spring will increase the pressure, if it doesn't help you may have a dirty oil pressure sending unit on the back of the block behind the intake manifold, you may want to pop it out & try to clean it out or just replace it 1st before anything. Lastly if it's a high mileage (over 70,000) the main bearings could be worn & the oil is squirting out the sides instead of going into the galleys. That's caused from excessive bearing clearance. Check those 3 things, pressure sending unit 1st & try not to drive it until you figure it out. Also check out some forums for mopar big block. What I mentioned are common. If you have a couple quarts of atf laying around you can drain out the oil and fill a couple new quarts of oil & trans fluid, start it up let her run till she gets up to temp, shut it off, drain, replace with your preferred oil, tranny fluid does a great job cleaning out oil galleys & pretty much everything else. Hope this help, if you have any questions & Pete doesn't answer ill gladly help. I'm a mopar guy 100% but a mechanic & work on everything, everyday
@@Moparmaga-1 That's really helpful of you - Thanks Korie.
Definitely going with replacing the Oil Pressure Switch first before anything else. If it's located towards the back of the block by the intake manifold then I shouldn't have too much trouble locating it.
While on the subject - I'm going to replace the Temp Sending Sensor too. Any thoughts on where that might be located on the 400ci block?
Thanks, Nick
@@nickshale6926 yes that should be on the water pump housing. It's a small brass fitting most likely 1 post, 1 wire goes to the unit. I'll check out a wiring harness I have to make sure & possibly tell you the color. The oil pressure sending unit also has 1 wire & it should be about 1.75 inches around & same tall & look like a canister.
@@Moparmaga-1 Thanks again Korie.
Any info greatly received. I recently had some overheating issues (Radiator needed recoring - now done) which consequently fried the temp sensor.
Korie Creson not entirely sure but I believe mine is 1972 and possibly came out of a Chrysler New Yorker.
Hi Pete,
I thought you shouldn't use paper towel due to the FM it will introduce to the internal parts?
Nevermind! you later clarified that. I commented before I watched the whole thing
You are sharp for catching that..... but I make sure they are gone during assembly ; )
How much torque did you put on the bolts?
Oil pump? 30 ft lbs
is it dirty or just oil/grease from manufacturing?
Could be dirty from manufacturing
Not to be picky or anything, but you were referencing the “check valve” correct me if I am wrong, but that is the pressure relief valve to regulate the pressure output of the pump. Otherwise your pressure would be out of control.
You are correct
I got a 93 chevy CK1500 that i got to replace the Fuel Filter on
Seems like a simple job
Did you put the part back that fell out @2:15
Yes, that was an o-ring. There are spares in the gasket set.
So the small o ring that fell out went back in before you started filming?
On threaded fasteners. Anything more than 1.5 times the diameter of engagement on the threads is wasted in terms of the holding strength of the fastener. Plus just because the drilled hole is a certain depth that does not mean the threads are that deep. When manufacturing the block or any other casting there is typically a gap between the depth of thread and the actual hole depth. These holes are power tapped using a spindle that is threaded*. This threaded spindle runs in a bronze nut*. The work head advances to just short of the drilled hole. The motor driving the head starts and the taps advance. While this is going on a rod of some type advances at the same rate as the tap/s. Upon reaching a preset depth the motor stops and reverses to run the threads out. It will reverse to the original starting point and stop. Typically somewhere after this station there will be a probe inspection station to detect any broken taps. Removing the broken tap is typically done using a manually operated EDM machine offline. On cast iron parts the taps are 3 or 4 flute bottom taps. On aluminum parts the taps are either thread forming or cutting. The thread forming taps will produce a stronger thread in the hole than a conventional tional tap. 30 plus years experience in an engine manufacturing plant repairing and rebuilding plant machinery, tool work and tool room machining.
*the reason bronze is used is that it is a lot cheaper to replace a worn nut than it is the threaded spindle. In high volume production parts do wear out.
Interesting, thanks.
ALWAYS check inside your oil filter!!! You'd be surprised how many regardless of brand have visible surface rust in them. Fram is especially bad.
Great point
Beautiful engine that should be put a smile on the owners face when he steps on the gas compared to the 'old; 440 with 375 hp I am sure the added torque will astound him. I am sure that's an easy 10 grand engine. Does the owner have the 'original' 440?Will watch to see it on the dyno-- Oh did you ever get that 351 W head oil return problem fixed? That seemed serious and was that a casting issue?
He has the original but blew out a cylinder. The dyno video is posted. You can build this engine yourself for the low price of $12,995. The oil problem was a slight casting variation, all fixed and running
Pete would you be interested in building a 360 5.9l with more suped up parts for me
Sure
I second this request Pete 🙏🏽
What oil do you use for the 440
I always use Penn grade 10w40 or 20W50
Wow, what brand of oil pump is that? They don't subscribe to your cleanliness plan. I just can't believe what these parts stores will hand you for rebuilt parts. Thanks and take care.
Steve Janka I think he said it’s an Elgin high volume pump.
Yes, it's an Elgin pump. I've actually found worse than this which is why I always check.
Ether take the oil filter apart and clean it too.
👏
👍
Great video as always, BE your own quality assurance person. Have you found another dog to adopt ?
Thanks Jonathan. I have not found another dog. I don't think I can take that heart break again.
That is normal to feel that way, your dog would be overjoyed if you took in another dog from a shelter and give him or her a home. A quality life is not measured in time but how we improve the world around us , your friend is with God.
That is truly beautiful, I actually teared up reading it. Maybe I will look into it.
how many qt is your oil pan?
7
While the pump is apart you should hold the pump body against the block to check for oil hole alignment. This is most important on many old v8 engines.
Great comment, thank you
❤️🔧🚗🏁🔥
👊
The Black stuff is the Zink the manufacturer uses in the oils to lube the parts.
That may be, I believe zinc is yellow or white. It doesn't hurt to check and clean
Zink is black, I add it to the oil I use in my 505 in my race truck/ dodge.
ha before he pulled it apart i was like omg you have OCD then i saw how dirty then i was like maybe i should clean my brand new oil pump in my freshly rebuilt 302 cleveland
I am far from having OCD, but I have seen worse inside new pumps so I always check.
these parts are made in a machine shop not an operating room so
however clean a machinist that made it is generally how clean their work will be.
I've seen machine shops that were as clean as operating rooms
How do you know it's rust? Oil isn't clear and has a brownish color.
It feels gritty
@@PetesGarage Then it is dirt, not rust. If it is rust and you feel the particles from a machined new part (very unlikely), you should discard, it as the surface would be pitted.
Thanks
How much would you be able to rebuild a 1970 383 Mopar?
It depends on what you want in it
Pete's Garage just stock
@@PetesGarage because I just see some metal flakes in the oil not big but super tiny
@@MarineRacingTeam Check the rod and main bearings while the pan is off. A bad rod bearing is my suspicion for small metal flakes.
@@normanmadden thank you, will do. Appreciate it
Brand new pump = filthy. I learned something today. Is this an anomaly or is this standard?
Well sir, if you were paying attention to our instructor, Pete, he said that they field test the pump before boxing it up. Look at the wide wear ring on the outer race in the vid. Looks like its been run for a period of time. Prob in same pool of oil they test all the other pumps too therefore dirty.
Great vid Pete~!
That is why I always check, thanks Eduardo
Great point. I can just imagine the conditions in the place that makes them.
I'm curious about what happened to make you think about opening up the new oil pump to clean it out lol. Seeing that is nuts....although I'm not really suprised. If I ever get to start doing this I feel like I'll start getting paranoid and break every new part open to clean it -_-
Well, I have worked in manufacturing a looooong time. When I took it out of the box a tiny bit of a dirty lube came out of it, so I wondered what it looked like inside. It was a gut feeling really.
Pete's Garage yea that makes perfect sense. Good thinking!
Not like they are selling Chrysler 440 oil pumps by the trainload anymore. The last "original" ones made for cars was 1978, Dodge trucks 1979 and 1980 for industrial applications such as Winnebago industries and then the engine tooling was sold for scrap. When you go to your local dealer and order a Mopar RB 440 block is was cast and machined in Mexico and shipped to you from a supplier.
Vaseline is for baby bottoms not for engine building ,I thought to myself,what are you doing that's not a baby,s bottom I always use STP when I build my engines it's meant for that purpose 😅
Everyone has their own method
The small details add up and its what makes things mediocre to great. Sometimes the difference in winning and losing. You have to ask yourself with the $$ you put in, take every precaution.
Absolutely agree, never assume new means new...lol
Yeah well Bounty towels are for hands, he used shop towels where no fuzzys fall off onto Oil pump
OF course
Us left handed guys are always smerter than mostest lol
Everyone is born right handed.... some of us overcome it.
US made quality oilpump?
I'm not sure where it was really made, but it's worth looking into.
det bra
Pete, and I thought all oil pumps lived inside the oil pan.
J Cirafic not on mopar big blocks
Thanks Robert.
The rust, dirt and wear marks appear like a used/return part
I know it looks that way.
You vsn sandblast those internals save forvthe O ring.
Yes
why would a new oil pump be so dirty
That's a great question. But I check anyway.
New part is tested so some ' break in' removal of metal takes place , the rust is from sitting on the shelf lol
Probably been sitting on a shelf for a long time.
@@willgeorgiadis2025 All new parts are coated with an anti-corrosion oil and that has a brownish color.
I don't remember which part this was as it was awhile ago that I've seen this video, but most of the parts I get every day have no coating on them. Sommetimes rotors and certain parts will but for the most part are dry. But maybe it differs from manufacturer, although I don't recall getting parts from other oems with coating on them (although i have received parts that have surface rust on them!).
Pick up hole to block passage in main body of pump are usually really rough, I have learned to detail that hole for smooth transition. Your is rough also.
Awesome comment, thanks
You think the oil you put in the engine is any better!......lol
Yes
Dirt and rust.?..Just doesn't sound right for brand new.
I pulled it out of a sealed box. It doesn't seem right, but I've seen worse.