Where do the Titans REALLY Come From?! - Speculation Lore
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- čas přidán 27. 04. 2024
- A random day on stream had us discussing the cosmic domains and how we've learned about different Zereth's, different pantheons, how the voidlords couldn't manifest in the physical universe... but then an obvious question popped up. If all these cosmic forces come from their own cosmic domains...then how come the titans are said to be born in our reality? That's what we're talking about today! I hope you'll enjoy ^_^
Say you want more details on all the things we talked about today, check out this WoWhead article:
www.wowhead.com/news/338973
Audio drama: • A Thousand Years of Wa...
T&E Shadowlands Interview: / 619631234
T&E War Within Interview: • Is Azeroth a Titan? Is...
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I wish they could make another audio-drama, they were so good.
My favorite part of titan lore is when Aman'thul said "it's orderin' time" and ordered all over the place
*removes two enemies from the rest of game*
The real question is, "where is he ordering from?" If it's McD's, what does he order? Big Mac? Junior Chicken? Happy Meal??? These are the hard-hitting questions that no one seems to get an answer to...
unorder yourself
They called him Ordon
Wow the comedy bar is low.
I think your lore videos are still my fav; with the emphasis on storytelling with TWW and the Worldsoul Saga, I think you are going to have a lot of awesome lore vids to make soon!
Titans are the by-product of Order consuming a World soul. I think original World Souls are pure and doesn't embody any cosmic powers which also include the Order magic. Remember the Evergrowth in Draenor? "When the titan Aggramar came across Draenor in his travels, he was intrigued by the world, but foresaw doom for the planet if the Evergrowth was allowed to grow unchecked, as it would eventually consume everything on the world, including the elemental spirits." even though Dreanor had no World Soul (or it had but consumed by the Life Magic and Evergrowth was the result?)
Whenever a cosmic force occupy a world, if there are no other cosmic forces to balance them same thing will happen over and over.
"Six voices in discord. Without harmony, the anthem will be ended."
I think you are wrong. Let's start by putting out some facts: The cosmos of warcraft is divided in planes of existance, usualy balanced with an oposite force: Life and Death, Chaos and Order, Shadow and Light.
Our characters exists within the plane of ORDER. Each plane have a set of very powerful beings that acts as their maximum champions: Death has the Eternals, Shadow has the Void Lords, Order has the Titans.
In the og lore, Titans are born from planets, unborn souls, dormant inside worlds. And their natural state is of Order. That said, their nature is not unmutable, so long is manipulated in the gestation period. That has been show and proven recently wth Argus: Argus was an unborn world soul in the plane of order, but was pumped with Death magic for millenia by the Nathrezim and that ended up turning him into a Titan of Death and causing it to go to the plane of Death (Shadowlands) when we kill him.
The Void Lords been trying to do the same, sending fragments of themselves (Old Gods) through the space, to rain on random worlds, with the hopes 1 has a dormant soul and that they corrupt it before is born, creating a void Titan. They almost achieved that in another planet, but Sargeras found it and destroyed the planet along the unborn corrupted soul.
That's why, the Titans went world by world, looking for dormant souls, to ensure there was no corruption from other forces. If Order had to consume a world sould to create a Titan, the Titans wouldn't leave the soul till is born... They just clean the planet of other forces and then leave it be, so the soul be born n their natural state. Hence why we can exist up to this point in the planet... Because if a diferent force takes over, we are fucked! This is shown recently throught the time rift system, showing alternate realitieis where other forces but Order have won. Best example is Ulduroth, a planet over run by the force of LIFE, where the only humanoid races that exist are the original races of Azeroth: Taurens and Trolls, but they live hiding in caves from the plant life that has nearly exterminated them.
Your quote "Six voices..." refers to the chosmological chart where is show how the cosmos balances on the existance of these oposite forces. Also, organicaly, the forces like void or death does not exist in the plane of order, they are invaders. Death was brought here by the burning legion through the Lich king, and Void forced its way here, since they can create void portals. Also the main champions of each force CANT cross over to the other planes, at least not without aparently using most of their powers.. hence why the Void Lords need to create a Titan of Death, to use him to create the portal so they can cross over and consume our plane. They can tho, send avatars with a fraction of their power.
In fact, Titans can't even teleport within their own plane, as shown by the fact that Sargeras could use portals to send his troops but he had to travel himself across the nether, which requried a lot of time, and it was the reazon he took so long to attack Azeroth directly.
"Six voices in discord. Without harmony, the anthem will be ended." this is not my quote, it is an in-game quote that belongs to Saezurah. Six voices = Six cosmic forces a.k.a. Ordus (Order) Mortis (Death) Lumen (Light) Vitae (Life) Umbra (Void) Tumult (Disorder) The First Ones created six cosmic forces to achieve things like rhythm, structure (Mortis. Lumen. Ordus. Rhythm and structure.) improvisation, possibility (Vitae. Umbra. Tumult. Improvisation and possibility.)
I disagree that we are in the realm of order. We are in the physical realm that was also created by the First Ones and it is in a perpetual elemental state when left alone. Outer forces like 'Order' just trying the manipulate those facts. You should not trust time rifts either since it's also a part of the 'Order' magic. It is no different from The Old Gods whispers and visions. Each force just claims 'we are nothing without them' but in truth, we are better without any cosmic forces' meddlings.
"Why, every word within was chosen so as to look favorably upon the titans, as if the Pantheon of Order were the architects of the flawless cosmos! How typical of their kind to claim credit for that which they did not build but inherited. As has been well documented, the language of the Titans uses the same word for "created" as it does for "Ordered". Such blatant hubris! I briefly considered sharing with this self-styled scholar our own cosmology, painstakingly researched by the finest minds of our combined cartels, designed to impartially relate the foundational truths of the cosmos. In the end, I realized the mortal would fail to grasp its subtleties, so rather than waste further effort, I thanked her for sharing her "wisdom" and sent her on her way. In the interest of completeness, I am including our CORRECT cosmology map here for reference." Ta'lora from the Grimoire of the Shadowlands and Beyond.
"Third: Do not share knowledge of the First Ones. Mortals could not conceive of the wonders that the makers granted to the Titans in Zereth Ordus. Thus, learning of the Progenitors would only confuse them. It is enough that mortals know the titans brought Order to the cosmos, and that they are owed deference." "Edicts of the Prime Designate (Odyn), Volume 742. Remember, Order is just trying to manipulate us just like any other forces. Do not trust their agenda.
@@josejuanandrade4439 You're saying that you're stating facts, but you're just theorycrafting. There's no kind of confirmation of Warcraft's space being the "plane of Order".
So regarding your theory (not fact), I take some issues:
1. The Pantheon doesn't leave souls in their "natural state", but embeds giant machines into their planets able to both influence and strengthen it as well as using its energy for other purposes. I believe the way it was put in the Chronicle was that the most important machine draws energy from space into the soul.
2. Ulderoth is not "run by Life", but rather a "Titan Utopia" with no Void corruption. This implies pure Order. The humanoids there hide from animals, not plants.
3. Death was present on Azeroth long before the Scourge or the Burning Legion, already connected with the life spans of its inhabitants. And since the original Val'Kyr spirit healers have been retconned into being Kyrian, the connection is probably older than the Pantheon's first visit.
4. Voids lords trying to create a Titan of Death? I think you're just confusing things now.
5. Sargeras DID use a portal to get to Azeroth; the one Illidan opened to Argus. The weird cloud thing he was hiding in crossed over during the course of the Antorus raid, but that's easy to miss since the story telling of it was whack.
6. The entire base of Nobbel's speculation in this video is that Aman'thul is an agent sent from whatever the plane of Order is, similar to the Old Gods.
@@mokarokas-1727 There is confirmation. Google up: WoW chosmology chart, there you'll see Azeroth is situated in the plane of order, Is a chart with the 6 forces and puts us very clearly in the plane of order.
Some of the machinery left behind was to slowly clear the void corruption, most was to nurture the soul, if it absorbs energy form the space around it, i mean, is the place it was born right? Just like it absorbed the element of spirit from Azeroth.. is where the soul was born into.
Read upon Ulderoth man, there's literaly a quest item we pick up there that states the info i shared with you, is a little proyector that shows an hologram of a tauren, Bellular himself has mentioned several time about Ulduroth, just recently in a video in fact. This is STRAIGHT UP INFO FROM THE GAME.
The Ulderoth quest item it states that in this "titan utopia" where they won and cleared all the void, the energies of LIFE have overun the planet, and that they are studying how the Yangol survive and adapted, and in response they having to build SMALLER watchers so they can hide from the plants... LOOK IT UP.
DEATH the force was NOT present... sigh... dude... by death we mean the forces from the Shadowlands... the magic from shadowlands.. not people dying dude.... By DEATH we mean undead, valkrys, the Lich King. Those forces man....
Spirit Healers are said to be connected to the Valkyrs, but they were NOT visible and NOT in our plane of existance.. they could only be seen after people DIED. You understand how this planes work right? Like, they are paralel planes that cohexist. they not just far away dimensions. To see a spirit healer you had to DIE, hence your soul had crossed over to the plane of death. But LIVING creatures could not interact with the spirit healers, not until the events of Warcraft 3, and even then, that wasnt very common.
Yeah i may have written Death instead of Void Titan because i was also speaking of Argus which was turned into a Death Titan. Void Lords been trying to creat a Void Titan, to use him to cross into our plane. You can only say Death Titan Void Titan so many times without you switching 1 by accident, but thats what i mean, the Void Lords been trying to create a VOID Titans and we know is posible to change the nature of an unborn sould because of what happened to Argus.
Yeah the lore was a bith whack there, so Illidan connected the space between Argus and Azeroth, i mean obviously since we saw the planet in our skybox. So yeah maybe Sargeras crossed over there, that is a posibility if he wasnt already traveling himself across space. But doesnt change the fact is well stated in the Well of the Ancient novel, he was trying to use the Well of Eternity's power to create a massive portal through which he could cross, and the Well is power from Azeroth unborn soul itself! So is pretty much trying to use Azeroth's power to open a portal so he can cross. And when that failed, he sent his Avatar instead, and then in Legion he sent Guldan 2.0 to open a portal using the EYE OF AMANTHUL. :)
@@mokarokas-1727 what this guy is saying is the result of Denuser shitshow in the Warcraft lore. Thing is world souls were supposed to be unborn titans, titans were supposed to be just ordenators of worlds, the Shadowlands was supposed to be just a mirrored dimension where dammed souls ended up, and that's all. This cosmic war, zereth this zereth that, all of this goes against everything on which Warcraft was built on, and we have Steve DeLoser to blame.
Been thinking about this one recently too, sounds like we had a very similar line of thought which suggests we’re onto something. So it seems like world souls are not necessarily Titans right, but something had enough power to order the first world soul. They then sent him off to replicate this, across the dark beyond, creating the pantheon. We see with Argus the power of death had great influence on that world soul (I.e. not a “titan” by the time we see him). They’re just part of this race for control. That makes sense to me since everyone is battling for Azeroth, and hopefully we get to see what a pure unaltered world soul looks like eventually.
Tl;dr, Aman thul is the emissary of “Order”. Simple way to rationalise it imo.
Yes Nobbel, come down the rabbit hole with us.
Been waiting for you to do a video on this topic.
Its wild how what the Titans have done totally mirrors the Black Empire and Old gods.
Taming the Elemental Lords, Creating their chosen life forms and propagating them across Azeroth.
Nice work on drawing ou that coincidence of writing Bliz.
But there is a difference the old gods wanted to corrupt a world soul for the void lords use to damage reality while the titans wanted the world soul to reach maturity and create life on them
@spandansahs8816
Yeah that's my point. The titans wanted to make Azeroth a titan. They seeded the planet with life to assist in that process (titan forged = Aqir). So Titan Azeroth could join up with them and make more titans. I imagine what ever void being Azeroth could have been would do the same.
Nobbel87, This video is fantastic! I liked it a lot!
I have felt for a long time that Azeroth is a first one, if not the First first one, and she has been asleep, maybe even healing, from either what she has expelled in her creations, and/or a fight with maybe the Void or even the Titan Pantheon. Remember the titans were taken aback when they first 'discovered' her as she already had life upon her.
i wonder if azeroth has been affected by so many cosmic forces that she might become something new, maybe something like the First Ones, if we assume they created the other forces (this is probably stupid but i think it might be cool)
What if Elune was originally a world soul as well and the planet she incubated in was Elunaria, the planet where we find Eonar in the Antorus raid.
I was about to post something similar when I saw this. As a lore fan I've thought about it ever since Antorus, why the area where Eonar is being attacked is called Elunaria. And then we have that thing about the Winter Queen being her sister. It'll be interesting to find out how it all makes sense.
@@You2Too There's the rub - there's a very prominent risk that it will simply never be explained. A surprising amount of big lore stuff this past decade has gone completely unexplained.
I would assume that amon thul is not the order equivalent of an old God, but rather the first titan to be "corrupted" by order.
If the old gods were successful in creating a void titan, it is not unreasonable to assume that this void titan would venture out to create more of its own kind.
This would open the path to yet unknown "order gods" and their creators "order lords", if we have a complete symmetry.
Perhaps constellars like algalon are equivalent to old gods? I would like that
Nobbel, have you considered the idea of the Titans are basicly the Celestials just like in the Marvel universe and the other pantheons like we saw in the Shadowlands are like the Aspirants from Marvel, the Death Pantheon may not be as strong as the Titans are but they hold truer to their Makers or First Ones design.
Why do we need to find value in a design by a first one?
@@laertesindeed on Marvels take with the First Firmament, the Celestials rebelled against the Aspirants and creators/makers. The Titans and the death pantheon remind me of this kind of thing.
@@skulls1681 I don't read or watch marvel stuff..... so your reply doesn't seem to have any connection to the question I asked? Why do we need to find value in a design by a first one? Your original comment seemed to imply as if somebody would try to obey or copy a design by a first one; and I don't know why you would assume that? Why should I trust or obey or even have any preference for an outside force known only as first ones? Why wouldn't they be my enemy as a sentient mortal on Azeroth?
Quick question as somebody who didn't play Shadowlands. Do we know what happened to Argus after colliding with the Arbiter? Is he still bumming around the Shadowlands? Did he return to Argus? Did he form another planet out there in the cosmos? Also it does strike me as interesting that of the cosmological forces that Arcane and Fel both seem the most likely to dabble outside of their own force. The Titans mostly in life and light but occasionally in void with G'huun and Satesh. We also see warlocks and demons dabbling in shadow and Gul'dan creating the origional Death Knights. It could be that both are more interested in the subjugation of other forces rather than the eradication of them.
Presumably its soul was consumed and destroyed in the process, but there's no confirmation. Of anything. At all. A recurring problem in modern WoW.
@@mokarokas-1727 Tbh it wouldn't be much of an issue if we didn't know Argus's ultimate fate if we at least knew that he left the Shadowlands because that's all we'd be able to determine at the time. But it is weirdly unexplored considering that it's the reason we're in this mess (other then Sylvannas destroying the Helm of Domination, which is a much bigger "just go with it" you could have had her at least perform a ritual or something). But it would be interesting to explore sometime within the World Soul Saga.
@@BernardBronston True, the only other world-soul we've been in contact with should have some relevance considering the name. lol
@@mokarokas-1727if you played Zereth Mortis you would literally know it was the jailers plan to make argus the new arbiter under his control and we fight Arguss soul in zereth mortis but we kill it and Pelagos becomes the arbiter
@@kingkmtso5107 I did play it, but I forgot that part (most of Shadowlands was sadly pretty forgettable to me). It doesn't seem to be relevant at all that it had to be Argus, considering an ordinary Kyrian worked too - and Zovaal had many of those under his control. But yeah, I concede that Argus' ultimate fate was revealed.
Titans definitely did us a solid. But so did the Old Gods through the curse of flesh. Maybe we’re children of multiple cosmic forces, they all had a hand in our creation through their fight over the world soul.
I'm convinced the titans are basically the Eternals of the Plane of Order, having incarnated themselves into the physical universe to order it, breaking the First One's instructions/plans.
Not maliciously, just thinking they can do a better job and causing the balance of the forces to collapse as a six-way prisoner's dilemma starts.
Reminds me of a question I ponder and ask but get no real answer to
"If/when a world soul or Titan wakes up. what exactly happens to the world and it's inhabitants?"
Maybe it was answered before but I have no memory of it and most just answer with, "they die?" but no one knows why they think that's the answer
Hard to say!
Chronicles makes it look like the planet turns into their body, but I'm personally not a fan of that caus that would mean Azeroth never really gets to wake up without fully nuking the planet to play on.
Argus is the closest thing we saw to a titan waking up, but that's not a real birth. More like a tortured remnant that got cut out.
Time will tell, hopefully. Would love to see Azeroth the titans yoink the sword out of her back and start kicking ass
@@Nobbel87 Ha that'd be great but yeah I'm def not a fan of the idea of the planet morphing into the Titan because I thought wait if that's the case then we 100% want Azeroth to never wakey uppy but yeah Argus is more of the exception not the rule from what we got, so it's just a food for thought wonder what that means for us. but the idea of Azeroth yoinking the sword out and immediately goes to kick Sargeras butt is funny and want first row seat to that~
@@Nobbel87 The only titan we've seen in the flesh, Sargeras, certainly didn't look like a walking world. =/
A random thought that hit me today: since Nozdormu was empowered by the titans and charged with keeping the "sacred" timeline, then that timeline must end the way Aman'thul wants it to. Nozdormu would have to either be swayed, defeated, or changed into Murazond for Azeroth to get a different ending.
Good video. But don't forget the forge of will and forge of origination. According to chronicle their purpose was to literally "infusing Azeroth's slumbering world soul with cosmic energies"as well as "shape the world-souls budding sentience" and "fortify the world-souls form".
They're literally shaping the form of Azeroths soul, mind and infusing it with order.
Source:Chronicle 1
And if we go into the really old lore from the early 2000s then it's said that magic(arcane) wasn't spread/common on the world before the sundering, it was all pooled in the well of eternity before it exploded and spread it's energies. And the WOE was literally pulling in cosmic energies to feed itself, it's stated to have been the heart of magic(arcane) on Azeroth.
Sources: "The Waking world and the Well of Eternity", as well as the book "The last Guardian".
This old lore is even more interesting when considering what we learned in DF, the wellspring on the dragon isles is now arcane infused, but it didn't use to be so. It was void tainted for awhile but before that it must have been something else. When Tyr talks about infusing order magic into it he does not talk about restoring it, instead he talks about the surprising side benefits of having the wellspring be order infused, we also have the primalists raving about how the titans tainted the well. This does not strike me as it being naturally arcane. But why would a well of Azeroth's blood not be arcane based? After all we've seen Azerite and chronicle claims it, but chronicle is as mentioned from titan PoV, and we have statements and examples of them or their servants literally infusing magic into Azeroth. Probably the infusion has just proceeded far enough so the Azerite of today is filled with arcane even if it wasn't always so.
I'm playing with the assumption that Xal'atath is a fragment of Azeroth formed at the time Aman'thul ripped Y'shaarj out of the planet. That a world soul is inherently not attuned to any of the domains, but rather developed. Pretty much every domain has been vying for a piece of Azeroth (and probably Argus too).
Also, if the Titans infused worlds with life, would the pantheon have also bestowed aspectral powers to specific beings in each world? Aman'thul making an Aspect of Time for each world he's overseen to protect this timeline. I'm going by the assumption that there exists only 1 Aman'thul across all timelines, so branching timelines are an additional threat to him, personally. Much like how we killed THE Archimonde in the alternate timeline. Something interesting about time, is that the progression of time increases entropy (in simple terms, disorder). Thermodynamically in real life, entropy must always increase.
And do we know what happens to a planet when the world soul is born as a titan (or any other celestial being)? While not my favorite movie, I get impressions by The Eternals, where the host planet dies in "birthing" the celestial being. So I could see Azeroth having been touched by the different domains, wishes to preserve the lives of her inhabitants, even if it opposes Aman'thul.
So my thoughts on this, as I started speculating when they were showing off their World Soul Saga, is that World Souls are the nascent forms of the Pantheon of any of the Cosmic Forces.
Well almost any. I think Death probably can't make its own new members; Birth By Death sounds like a Final Fantasy subtitle, not a reasonable thing to happen in most cosmologies, hence the weird Robots. It also just doesn't make sense for Disorder to have its own native Pantheon but rather that other powers would try to use it and bring disorder to their own hierarchies as a result. The other four powers though? It makes sense for them to have a living and growing Pantheon and with that giant Light Crystal Facility underground, near Azeroth's heart, we've now seen 3 of the 4 powers attempt to influence Azeroth towards one of their powers. Arguably the World Trees could be seen as Life pushing for this as well.
This is an interesting theory.
I feel like all world souls lean to a certain aspect and most of the titans show signs of their real leaning in their actions and personalities. Like most of the titans mean well, but Aman'thul I wouldnt mind being someone thats more very set in his ideal of order, not fully evil but not good as well. My thought is the titans are drawn to their truest aspect and thats something Aman'thul been trying to prevent as to him its just disorder when a titan doesnt want to be pure order. Like Eronar was likely a lIfe based being and Sargeras was likely a chaos leaning being before they were turned into titans. though honestly pretty sure all the titans were actually of life of some form before they became order beings.
What if Amanthul is an "order lord" who manifested in the physical reality because he figured out the proper equation to make use of a world soul, whereas the void lords tried forcing it at first ala Dimensius, but then figured they could mimic the equation using the old god parasites?
Since the Void tried to create a void titan, perhaps all domains could "seed" the titan potential to sway it to their side? What would a LIfe titan look like? Is the giant Light crystal in The War Within an attempt to sway it to the light? idk just thinkin
If the Pantheon of Order is not a Titans natural state, then who created Aman'thul? Because something must of turned him to Order and most likely copied the process.
At this point i'm wondering if the Titans themselves are being manipulated by something and they don't even know what they actually are.
Yeah, I'm not buying the whole "say titans are the villains" thing.... it doesn't make sense. I would sooner accept the Titans being a neutral world soul thing in the real world and arcane can be an outside influence on them.
@@laertesindeed I like this thought too.
@@aster4jaden Or...... an alternative conjecture since the dragonflight story doesn't make sense to me unless I make this hypothesis........ maybe cosmic team Life was a villain trying to dominate the Azeroth World Soul and they arrived before Titans, before Old Gods, before the Light.....and they kept having trouble succeeding when these other teams gradually showed up one by one, so they had to do plan B schemes of distracting each of them in turn. So cosmic team Life would be there at a neutral azeroth world soul first; and Light arrives, but Life attacks them and pieces of that Light shatter then fall and bury themselves in the planet. Then because of exposure to light the Void as their enemies also take notice of the planet both thinking it could be turned to their side but also thinking they could convert the injured Light crystals into void revenants. But team cosmic Life is still there and they need to prevent void from being successful so they corrupt those void team members with Life turning them into living flesh mound Old Gods that get distracted fighting themselves more than achieving voids' goals. Then finally the Titans arrive, and what they interpret as happening is the Old Gods are strictly a void threat that must be stopped, so they do their imprisoning thing. But the Titans don't realize cosmic team Life is the cause of many of those problems, so team Life plays the fool, bends the knee, pretends that they would help Titans and that life should be included in their ordering plan. They even trick Eonar into planting one of their villain trees and hiding it from other Titans. Then the Titans leave, and cosmic team Life starts interfering with sentient mortals..... turning protodrakes into Dragons, turning trolls into Elves, turning shu'halo into Tauren; all of whom start doing nature and life magic in addition to their arcane foundations.
So if the above is true, that also means cosmic team Life were responsible for stealing the dragon aspects back from the titans during the amirdrassil raid events; and that was "NOT" azeroth at all. We know that Elune was responsible for starting the seed which would eventually become amirdrassil....not Eonar, so it makes more sense with cosmic team Life as the villains. And that might also mean, that the voice which certain people start hearing for the transition to War Within may not be Azeroth at all either, it may be some of those Light crystal fragments leftover buried in the planet. Since we've already seen that naaru were able to invade peoples' minds and speak to us way back during Burning Crusade expansion with Shattrath.
@@laertesindeed mother fucker they tried to wipe out all life on the planet with reorigination in Ulduar and we stopped it. Are you fucking insane? Did you not fight Algalon? The Titans do not fucking care about you buddy
In my tabletop RPG campaign set in the (modified version of the) Warcraft universe, I had it so that beings from any "outer plane" (such as the plane of order, light or disorder, some of which I named) can in theory become Titans. There was a ritual they could do while positioning themselves at the heart of a planet as it's being (re)formed, and while it coalesces around them, they become bound to it. And now they're no longer bound to the plane they came from, but the Material Plane. And that matters, because the Material Plane is the perfect union of the cosmic forces and the elemental forces, which makes them all that more powerful. The order world-souls were just the first ones to figure it out and they kept this knowledge secret.
So the Titans are once again THE Pantheon, the gods of THIS world, making them once again powerful and important, while leaving space for the other lesser pantheons from later lore.
Tldr
@@CrackedConker Why did you reply this? What's the point? Discussing lore and playing with scenarios of cosmic forces is EXACTLY what we do on this channel, Mr. Edgelord.
I still feel like Titans were supposed to be just what they used to: powerful arcane being born from worlds. But since Steve DeLoser came with all this cosmic bullshit, everything had to be changed. If the world souls aren't originally titans, then why was Argus born as a titan? He wasn't touched by the titans, only fueled with Fel and Death magic, but he still looked like a titan. All of this speculation is fruit of the shit that Denuser did to the lore. I tell you, before the atrocities made to the lore in Shadowlands and even BfA, Azeroth was a titan, world souls were just unborn titans, and this now mysterious true intentions of the titans were just what was stated before: they simply wandered the cosmos, ordering worlds in hope to find more world souls and, by doing that, making it possible for life to grow on them. Life as we know is the result of ordering. Without order, everything is chaotic, unpredictable, unstable. Take Draenor, for example. If it wasn't for the ordering of the titans, plant life would have grown unstoppable, not allowing other life forms to grow and possibly even destroying themselves. Everything that we know in Azeroth is the result of order, from forests to civilizations. Dragons and protodragons are the result of the ordering of the elements, they didn't even exit when the Elementals ruled the planet after the defeat of the Old Gods, they couldn't because it was so chaotic. Since the beginning of Warcraft, the titans were portraited simply as creators, they weren't bad, but also weren't good. They ordered, created and watched over their creations, wiling to destroy them if the disorder took place. That's why I call bullshit all this stuff about domains and cosmic war. Everything in WoW was already well established while also surrounded by mystery. Now, because of Denuser stupid vision, everything has to have an explanation, every domain has to have a pantheon, titans are now opressors from order doman, Void is now neutral even though it is responsible for the creation of the everything that is evil, and the bullshit goes on.
We need animated shorts
It does seem more likely Aman'Thul is the order equiv of the Old Gods - he was sent by the actual pantheon of order to enforce their order on the rest of creation. He just bought into his job a little too much and got ideas above his station.
The Titans did the same thing the void does. Void send void lords to take over a world, and to make chaos beings. Just a part of the way things work.
Titans and Old Gods occupy the same strata of their respective powers. Titans might be individually more powerful, but they're both just harbingers at the end of the day - they channel the powers, they aren't the origin
Intriguing.
Finally a video not from War within
... But it's about what will happen in these next three expansions, including the War Within. ;o
I would say the Titans are part of the order but not the order. Like the burning legion is part of chaos but it not the main force of the chaos. And maybe the old god/voidlord void isn't the same as the cosmic void we have seen in the second raid in DF
Seems some are thinking Xalatath is some neutral void entity. It's weird that folks want her to be some Sylvanas type figure or Illidan. I think it's simple. The Cosmic forces need to struggle against one another that is what really brings balance. The reality we are in and our world soul is independent until it's influenced by a cosmic force. For all we know our Azeroth is a sleeping First One or a child of the first ones that is why she is so powerful. Entities are battling for control to increase their dominance. Seems the direction the story is going anyway
How does death doesnt instantly lose? Their pantheon is weaker, limited to 4, while order is more powerful and arent really limited in numbers but slow birth
What whe know so far that kinda' doesn't make sense to me is that Titans represent the realm of order, that is polar opposite of the realm of disorder (Fel, we know no titan power level being from there, only the fallen titan that was originally born of order), and we do know that they do oppose the other 4 realms to some extent too - those being life, death, light and void -, but somehow the story/lore pitched them primarily against the void in the form of the old gods corrupting world souls that would grow to be titans on an ordered planet, so not polar opposite forces are placed in great opposition. Somwehat similar to how the army of light, led by naaru (that funnily are capable of turning into void beings, I guess similar to how a titan of order can fall to chaos?), and they were pitched against the burning legion, a force of chaos.
So why the mismatch from polar opposites to what they are opposed in what they fight against primarily?
If they're not careful, they'll turn Amanthul into Zovaal - Order comes for the soul of your world!! And how well did that story line go?
Is it possible that azeroth could be "The One" hence why everyone is after her power, she being literally the beginning of everything and maybe her this is just a slumber in the form of being born and with that comes her knowing both good and bad and everything of all the universes and all realms know....cuz it is strange for sure that every single entity wants her so bad
what about ulderoth? that timerift shows a reality where titans ordered all of reality. Why would that reality not be the "real" one?
That's the million dollar question. Iridikron basically pointed this out to Vyranoth, but didn't give away the (supposed) answer.
unpopular opinion but the jailor had mad potential, the whole company just went through alot that year...
maybe if we had some kind of book that say cronicaled the story from an out of setting perspective but sadly blizzard never came up with that idea (and they devently didnt abandon it after the first book).
Why is everyone so mad about Chronicles being a titan pov? Like that makes it *SO* much cooler imho
@@Luc.Hewett It ruins lore, because then players and fans and readers who are trying to decide how to roleplay or have fun in that fictional world cannot even agree between them what happened. Even in the case of Warcraft 3..... we knew "what happened" objectively.....and then fans were able to pick their favorites of thrall's horde or jaina's alliance and decide their preference. If you don't even know what happened..... it's all worthless and no preference has any foundation at all.
@laertesindeed But it doesn't... It makes the world more dynamic.
We used to believe that the plague could be stopped by "good smelling air," we then learned it was bc fleas and germs, etc.
Our understanding of things *SHOULD* change over time, especially in a game like WoW to keep the story fresh and engaging
@@Luc.Hewett No. The existence of people getting sick with plague in medieval europe has historical evidence for being "what happened" .... later arguments for cause of the what happened doesn't matter because they all agree on the "what happened" part. The situation that a "only bla bla perspective" has on the lore is that nobody can even agree on the "what happened" at all. They don't even agree that anybody got sick with plague in medieval europe. The Chronicle book was described in the preface by Chris Metzen as "objectively what happened" .....and then Danuser ruined that by saying it didn't happen. Now nobody can even really discuss WoW lore because one side just says all the evidence for why the other side thinks a preference is cool didn't happen. It was a very unethical betrayal for authors, that has harmed fans interacting with one another.
@@Luc.Hewett People are upset because it was originally sold as "We are going to get the lore all sorted out. These books are going to be THE definitive lore books" and then they switched it up so they could have an out to retcon it. The idea of a book from a biased perspective itself isn't the issue. It's the deviation from the original intent of Chronicles.
4:45 sorry, change these implications to void and suddenly they're doing a bad thing?? This is the thing, order is just as bad as the other cosmic forces when it is forced upon something and unchecked.
Love your vids nobbel
The Titans could still come from a realm of the arcane, it's just they need to come to our realm to fully mature.
The Titans aren't all 'of order'. At least one is Life, and one Arcane. So.. a cabal for an allied group maybe, against Void.
Isn't Arcane the prominent magic of Order and thats it? I think this video is not that great, but not because on nobbel but because of the chaos Blizz did to the Lore in recent years. They really have to clean up all that mess in TWW and bring back on track before we really can discuss Lore elements on a cosmic scale again :) To many questions open right now to how some of the elements of the cosmic powers even work correctly with all the bits that contradict each other
@@mw2984 You're just upset that you dont know everything. Stop bitching and inject some god damn wonder and curiosity back into your life
Good video. However, we're not just children of the titans. The Curse of Flesh "created" us from the Vrykul that makes Yogg-Saron our "father"?
For some aye! Been working on a curse of flesh video for soon tm. Father perhaps or liberator?! DUN DUN DUNNNNNN
As I recall, the Titans normally create fleshy life form mortals on worlds which they order. And the only reason that they made earthen and vrykul out of stone or metal was because of the unusual and exceptional circumstances which they found when they discovered Azeroth. Namely the presence of Old Gods, which apparently they had not found on any previous worlds. They needed something temporary that could fight those old gods without destroying the planet. And then presumably when the old gods were defeated and no longer a threat, then they'd resume putting fleshy mortals there. Then when the old gods were defeated and put in chains, they started to corrupt their captors, the stone vrykul and earthen....switching them back to flesh versions because those were easier to mind control and corrupt into destruction. Those old gods were never "creating" us..... they were sort of weakening us.
Man all the lore hype makes me sad because it feels like its 3 expansions late. The final patch of Legion had us come face to face with light, void, the titans, and the fel. Then we fucked off on a meaningless 3 xpac roundabout just to end up addressing the end of Legion (the sword, the titans, the world soul, light and void…) all over again.
It's hard to say what the actual plot is since Blizz writers can't keep it straight, but I think First Ones for Order are equivalent to Void Lords for Void and World Souls for Reality. They have interfered with realm of Death by forming Eternal Ones*, but the realms of death existed already. They interfered with reality by forming Aman'thul who then Ordered the other world souls that existed already. They have also used the World Souls to interfere with realms of life (Eonar and Elune), but Wild Gods existed already.
As for the state of Azeroth, we are just missing Light: she was infested by Shadows from Old Gods, Ordered by Titan's machines, nearly claimed with Death by Zovaal and death forges in Ice Crown, stabbed with a Fel sword by Sargeras and has a occasional injections of Life through the Emerald dream. Perhaps our quests in Hallow and that big ol' light crystal will finally lead to Azeroth getting the Light infusion?
*It is unclear to me what would have been the equivalent of Eternal Ones had the first ones not interfered or how it connects to Elune? Is Elune an "ordered" Wild God just like Aman'thul is an "ordered" World Soul or are they both constructs like Eternal Ones? Shadowlands lore is so whacked, why couldn't they just say that Eternal Ones existed as something else if the only real use for that revelation was having a frikcing boss fight >:( Like Pelagos exists, they could have just used someone native to Shadowlands to create Eternal Ones to make it make sense not some dolls aaaaAAAAH
Shadowland lore is just so fuk up enough to make Blizz beg Metzen come back to fix it starting with Dragonflight like a prologue to World Soul Saga, at least they can have a proper path to do now
Yeah, the reveal that the Eternal Ones, the Titan-equivalents of Death, are mass-producable robots, is what really makes Shadowlands-era lore so fucked up. If the Eternal Ones were made in Zereth Mortis, then it stands to reason that the Titans, or their spirits at least, were forged in Zereth Ordus. If that is the case, why didn't they just commission another Sargeras when the first one went off the rails, like how the Eternal Ones commissioned another Arbiter when Zovaal had his Joker Moment?
Are the Void Lords and Naaru also mass-producable robots in the same vein as the above? Does that mean the cosmic war is by definition unwinnable as each side is pumping out God-Droids at similar rates? What happened to the pantheon of Disorder? Did they exist and were consumed by Sargeras/some other dudes, are they still around, or did they never exist? Same with the pantheon of Life; is Elune it? Did she kill every other member and eat them?
What are the bloody First Ones? What's the extent of their power? Where did they go? Why were they so obsessed with robots, is it a fetish? Who knows! Blizzard surely doesn't!
@@WarMonger_the-One-and-Only why is there even a war in cosmos if they are all mass produced droids!!!! It makes me so mad just thinking about it!!!
@@Alexandterrara I dunno. Maybe each set of robots want to be the top robots?
If you think about it, human, dwarf and gnome players are the infirior knock-offs of mass-produced robots that were made by the mass-produced robots of bigger mass-produced robots. It's robots all the fucking way down!
@@WarMonger_the-One-and-Only TENGEN TOPPA GURREN LAGAN!WE ARE THE SPIRAL RACES! Its all gonna end with 10-25 man raids being in a big MECHA Robot fighting the Anti-Spirals you heard it here first!
Idk why people, including Nobbel, are still saying the whole "from a point of view" meme. It's clearly not the case anymore and was just one of those wacky things Steve said.
Caus swap of the guard doesn't instantly negate all that was done under Danuser, example would be Anduin's story in the shadowlands. That's flowing forward into war within and beyond.
Untill they make a statement on it, previous statement still holds +
other books beyond chronicles been published with pov in mind like dragonflight codex +
even if they do go back on it, who would trust that? How long until metzen leaves and its again pov.
I would take stuff Danuser said with a grain of salt, because he was kicked out, and a lot of his stuff is being retconned. Especially his "Chronicles isn't canon" arguments. The "Titan point of view" stuff is gone with Metzen back.
What makes you say that?
Weird take, since Metzen himself is introducing this expansion by talking about a titan conspiracy and how they're possibly deceiving us.
I don't think Aman'thul is on the level of old gods or Naaru. Like, he doesn't seem to be an emissary of order like those things are for their respective forces. He seems a lot closer to what the pantheon of death is, just nore powerful due to existing in reality itself. My thinking is that the world souls hold the potential for any cosmic force within them. A world soul could be born into reality as a titan, a member of the pantheon of death, a void lord, whatever Elune is etc. Maybe it's just order that has figured out how to do this, or maybe they're just the only ones in enough control of worlds to do it.
Now Argus seems to be a bit of an outlier there, but who knows. I'd assume Eonar had a similar experience, getting blasted with life instead of death energy before she came into reality.
It also makes me wonder why the titans don't just know exactly how many other titans there are. If they ever existed in Zereth Ordos and their Order Realm together, they would already know wach other right?
It's just a bit of a mess mapping the shadowlands structure on anything else in the lore.
Are we talking about the other time we explored the origins of the Titans, or the other, other time we explored the origin of the Titans? ...Anyone else smell copper?
her face when Tali says : "...or not" says a lot 14:40
she was just pre-answering him that she's not answering that. He triggered a safety precaution set in her, that prevents her from answering that question, that's what you've seen.
Cant wait for "Iridikron did nothing wrong"
Guys, stop overthinking. Its all just a Jailer plot.
The titans are putting something in the water that is turning the freaking frogs gay.
I think Blizzard made a really big mistake when they had the Naaru go to war with Revendreth, logically it makes no sense given what Revendreth is, but because it's "vampires" they thought "it'd be cool if the light fought them."
It just makes lore way more confusing and illogical for no reason other than a weak, surface level conflict. Danuser using SL to try and stamp his own imprint on the lore means so much weird shit that will need to get retconned
I don't think the Titan pantheon are the real pantheon of order. I think they are just another race of the fisical univers. A really powerful race, but just one more among the many. Justo like humans are more powerfull than ants, the Titans are more powerfull than Watchers and them more than humans, etc. The mantid refer to them as ursurpers. I think the pantheon became aware of the realm of order and they decided to imitate the real pantheon of order and claim to be them. They decided they has the right to rule and order the cosmos. That could also explain why some Titans can weald other Cosmic Powers like chaos (Sargeras), life (Eonar i think she was called?), Void (a posibility that Made Sargeras destroy the world in half), and in Hearthstone we have a light Titan.
Imma be real. Can we just go back to horde vs. Alliance? BASTA!! Like we fighting over that dam world of Azeroth. I hate Shadowlands and the "Jailer". I do jail stuff for the orbis and other stuff that no one is ever gonna care for.
4:19 apart from the bit were they massaker trillions of sentient life forms when they woke up but there were only lesser life so its fine right?
We have no reason to believe a planet is destroyed when the titan wakes up.
@@MikeTall88 Algalon has confirmed that the titan's instructions have led to the waste of "a million, million lives" though
@@TaliesinMyrddin But that's from the "re-originating" of planets, which the Constellar are in charge of, rather than titan births.
@@mokarokas-1727 Yeah, but the original post was referring to Chronicle calling the titans benevolent, so re-origination is actually worse since the titans planned it out
@@TaliesinMyrddin Very true, but since you didn't mention the re-origination it seemed you were commenting on their "waking" like the other two. My mistake!
Sanger did nothing wrong 😂 He just wanted to stop the Order occupation
"Sanger" lol
Amanthul found "others" and put them in planets to torment/order them until they turned into what he wanted..it clearly states in that "it surrounded itself after finding a warm sun to protect itself" this means they were not born in these planets , then says it was betrayed and bound. Two bright both elune and eonar as we know elune left azeroth in one of the short stories and thats why her sister got mad.also "the last titan" what if amonthul is and was the last one which is why he HAD to make more.Where are the first ones? well all gone but amonthul ..
“How would an original Azeroth look like?”
The Emerald Dream. That is how it has always been described, right?
They've poked a bit at that recently too with ingame book 'on nature of the dream'. It questions if the dream is a blueprint, or merely a mirror of azeroth. A part of the emerald dream that's been orderd b ythe titans, beyond its border a more wild ruggish domain potentially related to life? www.wowhead.com/news/emerald-dream-lore-books-in-10-2-eonar-and-elune-the-very-first-world-tree-and-335352
Not really. They described the emerald dream more like an unfinished prototype workspace from which things got borrowed to insert into Azeroth without taking into consideration any sentient mortal civilizations at all. So it wasn't moral or ethical at all, with regard to your existence as a person.
Kind of just makes 20 years of speculation on these divine beings turning them nothing more into saps into the longest con that was ever played just makes it all seem too cynical if you put it that way.
goooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooood
this whole cosmos thing is a bit big for my taste and restructured too often. take lotr for example there is a creation myth and gods and stuff quite literally but in the actual story they don't matter. I dont like it when they have to come up with extra shit and points of view just to justify some lore of any current designer. I hope with this world soul saga they get the bigger story better in line rather than patching up age old plotholes nobody would care about if they just admitted the story wasn't what it is today when these holes appeared. zovaal is the best example, yes you can unify a lot of story like that but people really don't like it that much not everything has to make sense.
Blink
Aman'thul just woke up and immediately looking for a chick Titan in skimpy outfit to awoken. Dude has priority
"hear me"
HONEY GET OUT ITS MY ME TIME! Gosh
This cosmic stuff is bs and should be retconed. Having Old Gods and Titans only was fine, but now having all these cosmic players is just to much and unappealing for me. Story is getting ridiculously more complicated than it needs to be.
Well the titans came out of someone arse.
I wish they would focus on small grounded, regional stories and us collecting more bear asses instead of all this scientology nonsense.
Over past 10 years they have been trying to recreate real life more and more when it comes to story, believes, villains and even creature animations. I don't want more real life in my video game. If i want one i will go outside. There is no reason for players to know all this meta nonsense. It is forgettable and feels cheap. The more they do it the faster magical feeling disappears. i don't want to know all this grand things. My interest in game came from seeing night elf tree and people riding night saber cats not some galactic sponge bob and his grand plan.
i guess even virtual world falls in to the same traps as does the real one - chasing knowledge. i struggle to see the future in this type of story telling however. The stakes always has to be higher the drama must always be bigger than last time. i just do not care for this.
Make the game visually and story wise more simple and let the mind complete the picture.
Alas. i am a minority.
Every titan is the prime of its realm. Order is made to keep them all in check.
Could you elaborate on that?
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
Sorry but I'll never buy this "titans are villains". People are blindly accepting any piece of poor written lore nowadays that they don't notice how stupid this idea is. Tell me, if world souls aren't naturally unborn titans (arcane beings of order), then why Argus was born as a titan like being, even after being fueled by Fel and Death magic? The truth is that everything that is being speculate now is the result of the atrocities made to the lore in BfA and Shadowlands, and people are just accepting them as always.
Just imagine how great the game would be if we just cut the lore off at the end of Legion with no sword, and went to a Legion+ with classic.
First
Blink...this character is so annoying...blink...feels like he talk in telegrams...blink
Zereth mortis can't be canon. It's horrendous. That entire story ark needs a retcon.
I didn't think it was great, but it seems clear that the helm of domination being turned into the crown of wills was a titan trick. They got us to kill Argus, which messed up the arbiter. Then they put in a new arbiter with the crown of wills (aka literally a helm of domination, just a light version) and have control of the death realm. Unfortunately I think it's canon
@@hobosnake1 I'm not even sure what you are claiming...... the Danuser writing, as bad as it is, never claims that the Titans had any crown of wills nor that they wanted anything done to any arbiter.
@@laertesindeed What are you talking about? I never said anything about Danuser or his intent for the story. I'm just making an observation and taking a guess. Obviously there is an over-arching titan conspiracy. Chris Metzen said this himself. Unless Shadowlands is supposed to be a self-contained story with no implications for the plot of Warcraft at all, then I think it's safe to assume there was something weird going on there beyond what we know. Isn't it weird that the Titans were so willing to kill their brother, Argus? Right after they just saved another one from Sargeras's control? They're just going to slay the other one? That's fucked up. Then we find out that the arbiter got messed up BECAUSE of Argus's soul going to the shadowlands. Just because the author doesn't outright state something, doesn't mean it can't be the case. You familiar with concepts such as foreshadowing and allusion? It seems very clear to me while watching the Jailer cinematic where we defeat him that he was being dominated, likely by the primus. I suspect the Primus is in league with the Titans. This is SPECULATION. I'm not saying it's fact, but clearly if you pay attention to the game that you're playing, you'd realize we didn't actually help the shadowlands. We probably helped the titans. You're free to believe what you want, though.
@@hobosnake1 I must say I didn't read the entirety of your reply..... because you were contradicting yourself from earlier. The shadowlands writing does "NOT" contain Titans doing any conspiracy for the arbiter nor anything to do with the helm of domination nor crown of wills. This has nothing to do with my "beliefs" or anything about me..... the shadowlands writing has no such thing. Nor does Metzen's writing for the Helm of Domination as made by the Nathrezim, by the way.
@@laertesindeed whatever man. You can argue that bfa up until shadowlands is not canon because it wasn't chris. That's stupid and you're replying to nothing because you didn't read what I wrote. Genuinely one of the stupidest takes I've ever seen, especially considering in the very first cinematic of Chris's world soul saga is anduin reliving what happened to him in Danuser's Shadowlands expansion. Get a brain.
They come from the imagination of some guy xD
Nobbel87, This video is fantastic! I liked it a lot!