Ehrman-Butt Debate Suffering & God's Existence
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- čas přidán 17. 09. 2015
- Bart Ehrman met with Kyle Butt at the campus of the University of North Alabama (UNA) on April 4, 2014, at 6:30 p.m. in the Norton Auditorium, which seats about 1,700 people. They were invited by the Christian Student Center on the campus. Gospel Broadcasting Network aired the event live on their television network, as well live streamed it on the Internet. Kyle wrote previous of the event explaining that, "He [Bart] is a self-avowed agnostic who claims that the pain and suffering he sees in the world make it impossible for him to believe that the Christian God exists. Thus, the debate will be on the subject of suffering and the existence of God. Ehrman will be affirming: “The pain and suffering in the world indicate that the Christian God does not exist.” I will be denying that proposition."
Program discussed on Bart Ehrman's Foundation Blog: ehrmanblog.org/?p=9131
Kyle Butt reflects: www.apologeticspress.org/APCon...
Bart D. Ehrman is the James A. Gray Distinguished Professor at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. He came to UNC in 1988, after four years of teaching at Rutgers University. At UNC he has served as both the Director of Graduate Studies and the Chair of the Department of Religious Studies. A graduate of Wheaton College (Illinois), Professor Ehrman received both his Masters of Divinity and Ph.D. from Princeton Theological Seminary, where his 1985 doctoral dissertation was awarded magna cum laude.
Kyle Butt, M.A. is a graduate of Freed-Hardeman University, where he earned a B.A. with a double major in Bible and communications, and an M.A. in New Testament. Currently, he serves in the Bible department at Apologetics Press and as editor of Discovery magazine.
Copyright © Bart D. Ehrman and Apologetics Press, Inc.. All Rights Reserved. Unauthorized use, re-posting and/or duplication of this media without express and written permission from Bart D. Ehrman and Apologetics Press, Inc. is strictly prohibited. www.apologeticspress.org
Curiously, I wonder what Butt's reaction would have been if the woman who was struck by a stray bullet had said it was Allah who saved her, instead of "The Lord"?
Wow, Ehrman kicked Butt.
I can't stand it when the audience claps for Butt's pure nonsense immediately after Dr. Ehrman makes a simple, easy to follow, 100% rational point.
First, let's applaud the hero that cut out the introductions. I salute you, sir or madam.
Working in academia much of my adult life, and attending or listening to lots of speeches, lectures and debates over the years, this is the first and only time I have ever wanted to punch a speaker in the face. And I'm talking about Mr Butt.
Prof. Ehrman's patience is monumental.
And every statement and argument Prof. Ehrman makes is to the point, succinct, incisive, powerful and honest, on this undeniably powerful and emotional topic.
Thank you.
I could listen to Bart Ernham talk all day... he's a breath of fresh air! :)
Sometimes i cry hes so dam inspiring
What the hell? What a wicked world this is.
Yeah I like listening to him. It’s as if I’m one of his students attending his lecture ☺️
@@RosannaMiller Being skeptical is wicked? This is why I"m glad I no longer believe in this myth.
What an insufferable prick, that Butt. Twisting his oponents words beyond recognition. Ehrman seemed thoughtful, kind, and sincere.
My exact feelings on this debate. Well said!
I agree! Butt seems scared to loose his narrow minded way of thinking to new opinions different from his own, therefore uppity upping his ranting and raging feelings towards Bart. Butt knows he's met a worthy, intelligent opponent and he knows it!
@@recieve.believe3344 go read your Bible my dear if you have one. I love Kyle the way he articulate the scripture
@@petrusjonathan9669 Yes. Go read your Bible. All of it. No better path to atheism!
@@petrusjonathan9669 Yep, read your bible, but not more than what your minister's reading, or else, you'll end up loosing your faith on it. Reading the bible limitedly is enough to make you a follower, read it more, then you'll know the truth enough to know that it's just an ancient Jewish myth not worth putting your faith in it.
I met Kyle Butt when I was a child. He stopped by my church to give a talk on how humans and dinosaurs lived side by side- even gave me his book.
I'm an adult now, and an atheist. Evolutionary history and biology are some of the most fascinating topics in the world to me. I am thankful that Mr. Butt instilled a love of science in me, but I don't think it turned out the way he expected.
It's the little ironies.
As a believer of God and Christ I think Dr. Ehrman won this debate. He made more sense.
St. John#5 Faith Church a year later I have to ask if you are still a believer?
id also like to know if you're still a believer
so are you still a believer ?
Still a believer?
2 years later. Are you still a Christian?? LoL
I came back to listen to this debate after hearing an interview with Ehrman where he said that Butt was one of the few people he has debated that he wouldn't interact with again as he was so dishonest. Listening to this debate it's not hard to understand why he feels that way.
This was almost like watching two different debates. Dr Ehrman deals with the points made, makes his own, then Butt (what an appropriate name) goes off and argues against points that Dr Ehrman never makes. That had to be frustrating.
Butt had his entire debate prepared ahead of time, because he is a preacher, not a thinker.
Butt- “Hold my Bible and watch this.”
(Grabs Bart’s book and begins preaching) I don’t know how Ehrman held his composure. I’m impressed! Bravo, Bart!
When all those who attended this debate went home, It was what Mr. Ehrman's said that lingers in their mind.
Kyle Butt delivered one of the most intellectually dishonest arguments that I've seen in quite some time. Dr. Ehrman did a great job maintaining his composure and won quite handily.
Dishonest?
Yes Dishonest. He preached, open did not debate. He's so CoX he can't see the problems that he was indoctrinated and brainwashed with..he's a victim victimizing others now rather than admitting the world is sphere and is t u see a shiny metallic mirror. He would use genetic testing for disease fighting, but can t grasp genetics PROVES evolution. Evolution is not Abiogenesis/spontaneous generation.
The a church of Christ doesn't mean to be that way, they are all groomed, brainwashed, indoctrinated that way. Like the Taliban.
He was not debating Dawkins, 'diabelief' or another strawman. He was being a typical COC PREACHER being preachy rather than debating.
@@RosannaMiller Incredibly. He's like a Hoover salesman. Erhman is teaching people how to think not what to think. He also understands what debates are which isn't preaching to the choir.
@@anitareasontobelieve7375 Good answer ..agree !!
My heart goes out to everyone that had to sit through this debate and most of all, for Ehrman that had to talk to that guy and reply to him in a polite way. I've watched Ken Ham's debate with Nye, I've watched the recent debate of Ray Comfort with Dillahunty, only Butt made me feel like my brain cells were dying because of the utter stupidity of his claims.
"Starving to death for a brief time". This was worth watching just for that little gem.
Bart Erhman- I love your closing statement! I love that your concern is people and not just "proving" your side...
I agree completely.
I love u dr ehrman
Butt is preaching to the choir and erhman is the underdog and has to appeal to the audience a different way.
Yeah who expects proving anything in a debate?
I'm going to do everyone a big favor and direct you to one of the most pivotal points in the debate. At 1:31:58 Ehrman asks if absolute morals are supposed to make Christians more moral then why do they still do so many bad things. Butt responds with silence and moves to the next question.
@1:33:40. That is Ehrman, acting like a child. Let me help you. Conflating moral absolutes with people understanding them, and even further then following them, is simply wrong. Ehrman makes a huge leap, that just isnt sound thinking. Erhman then says he knows what is right or wrong, but noone else can know it, and he doesn't need any reason. Butt just points out that ehrman actually believes in moral absoluts, but refuses to acknowledge it. Ehrman has almost zero reasoning, and literally just breaks down and refuses to think, often respond in anger. It's sad.
@@LoraxChannel Todd, your answer does not have substance..you are the one that does not have a brain, you are senseless and unintellegent.
@@LoraxChannel "When Ehrman points out that knowing absolutes don't seem to help Christians act better, that's childish. When Butt points out that some people act poorly, that's super deep and relevant and oh god just so amazing gargle gargle. It's definitely not because I agree with the latter and not the former."
Why bother typing out that whole paragraph when you could summarize it just as accurately by saying "Atheist bad, christian good"?
Todd Walker I think a more powerful question would be this - if Christians have the Holy Spirit living within them, and they are united to Christ, , AND they have an absolute moral law, how is it that so many of them are so wicked in their actions? If the Holy Spirit is within them, writing the law on their hearts, how is it that they can so easily ignore an absolute law literally written on their hearts. Do they have the ability to erase that writing with their free will?
@@LoraxChannel Ehrman's point was a follow-up to Butt's critique of the evolutionary model of morality.
"Why do you, who believe that humans that developed to have their own best interests in mind by helping others from suffering, also admit that there are people who don't do that?"
"Well, that's like asking a Christian who believes in moral absolutes why they don't always hold to them."
Just because there's a model doesn't mean it is perfect or encapsulates every individual. It was a demonstration that neither side has it totally worked out.
In the Bible, people are given names according to their skills and personality treats. I think Butt's name is very Biblical and this debate demonstrates this very clearly.
Henrique Sousa ha haa .. That's funny!!!!
Lmao
YES... Kyle Butt truly acted like his name portrays. An ASS!!! It was obvious he feared losing the debate more than he wanted to educate and/or learn. It was all about points for him (to try and win the debate) verses making statements that really causes one to learn or allow for thoughtful conversation.
Even the body of Christ has a Butt.
lmao
Kyle often introduces his arguments by saying "Watch this!" like a desperate street magician trying to keep a crowd after he's been caught palming a card.
orangpend8 ha ha ha Good one
It's a technique to distract, confuse and shut people down.
Plus it sound like he’s tickling a penis with his tonsils when he speaks.
Yes!
It's his version of "Hold my beer!"
Kyle Butt babbles in circles for twenty minutes. Bart Ehrman begins at 21:00
I hope Ehrman got paid extra for this one, holy shit. I can't listen to Butt for even 5 minutes.
Jonah Conner We should all get paid just for listening ourselves. My brain hurts.
If you are feeling masochistic, have a look at his CZcams channel
Jonah Conner
And his voice is so disturbingly shrieking, squiling screeching
Can’t stand him
So it's not just me :) Basic primitive understanding, everything is a dualistic dichotomy, and he doesn't understand the basic evolutionary benefits that result from empathy for social animals. I'm not even five minutes in and I know it's going to be free wills fault already. "God exists, prove me wrong!" Citation needed, a claim was made yet not a single shred of evidence was provided.
I have a feeling that many in the audience took some of Ehrman's pauses as him being stumped as opposed to how to respond to this silliness.
I think you're right about the live audience. Thankfully, I believe (or want to believe) that the recording was understood by most of the CZcams audience. That is, if they suffered through an hour or two of it.
The one thing that sticks in my mind from this debate is Bart obviously emotional while describing the people in the world dying of various causes, and how we must help him...and the camera cuts to the "believer" in the religion of "empathy", texting on his iPhone. 1:05:00 I'm certainly not making any arguments, here, but it encapsulates our "Christian culture" so perfectly in a few seconds so much better than entire books written on the subject have.
Do you not get the impression that Butt is trying to sell you something?
Yes, the man is a really good advert for non-belief.
“Now let me tell you what you’re getting with the extended warranty......”
Yeah, he is adverticing Ehrman's books well while quoting them during the whole show
*Yeah, how many times did he say, "Now watch this."? It's like he's selling Ginsu knives.*
halleluja - I wanna be in the greens lord, you cannot stop me from dreaming!
Dr. Ehrman....since the death of Christopher Hutchins, I have been waiting for the next “clear thinker” to come along! You are the ONE! I applaud your insight fullness. MAN created god in HIS own image! Thank you!
You have found your new messiah? Good for you!
no man alive can win a debate on this subject with dr. ehrman. he is just too power full and knowledgeable.
nah, Dr Ehrman tells you how you might successfully debate him. But as Dr Ehrman offered; there is no one answer to this; so he does not offer one. The answer to an Omnipotent God and Pain is such a old and long studied topic. You might offer Philo response, you could discuss issues of salvation and repentance. The best answers are found under those who consider Universal-ism. Dr Ehrman did not even want a Answer. You only had to show you were aware of the various philosophical constructs and there strengths and weakness. Dr Butt just made a series of assertions ... that is fine. That is what Christianity is.
I don't care if there is agod or not, but I could do better. Dr Butt should have offered what he had spoken with grieving parents about ... he would have in his career. He could say he felt inadequate; human. And he prayed for guidance. Faith. And did not know the answer. Appeal to Grace.
Debate over.
Because he’s just so right. :) knowledge is the continuous growing aspect of humans
Butt is a disgusting human.,.
Western Civilsation then get out there and debate. Change the world if your better
Butt is an obnoxious person. He talks a lot but says nothing of substance.
He is like an archer throwing arrows 1 yard from the bullseye and everyone goes outside the target
People who talk the most normally have the least to say
Odd you find Butt obnoxious when Ehrman literally acts like an angry defensive child. Ehrman refuses to listen or even participate in a discussion. He just patronizingly spews whatever is a defensive reaction. TBH Ehrman seems like complete dick, and ironically goes on about his superior "enjoy life while it lasts" in anger.
Bart Ehrman is an excellent theologian and Biblical scholar. Well done!
At times Kyle Butt was more focused on ad hominem attacks than on the issue being debated. Bart Ehrman was centered on the discussion of theodicy. Ehrman did a great job!
I admit...I spent two hours learning nothing from Kyle Butt.
I love you Bart Ehrman and applaud you for going through this painful conversation. Know your work unmeasurably valuable in keeping the rational arguments to these old ideas fresh, new and alive. Keep up the good fight. Mr. Butt was hard to listen to, but he tried very hard, but his biblical arguments failed and you easily and thoroughly rebuffed each one of them. Well done.
Why it's so painful I don't understand 🤔
watching this was so irritating. idk how Dr. Ehrman sat through that. he has my respect
There is something wrong with this world .......too many Butts! How much suffering has been inflicted due to arrogant objective morality !!! Thank you Dr. Ehrman for some sanity.
The more this guy Kyle speaks, the more I realise why he was called Butt, because that is what he speaks out of, and what comes out is dribbling on the floor. I now believe in evolution as this guy hasn't evolved yet. As a Christian I really enjoy listening to Bart. He has many good points to make and good reasoning behind his comments.
Excellent work Dr. Ehrman! I appreciate your tireless efforts to educate our global community!
I feel disturbed by the immaturity and ego of mr butt head ! BART you are a voice of light in the wilderness of spiritual manipulation and bullshit ! Thankyou 🙏👍🏿😊🌈
In this debate, Bart Ehrman was class and intellect, Kyle Butt was noise and ego.
Ehman's questioning around 1:22:00 completely destroys this arrogant, self-impressed Nimrod.
Kyle Butt brings you the phrase "watch this", whilst also claiming that egotism is bad.
1:15:18 Such a beautiful, well earned applause. Bart Ehrman never came up as a deep or wise individual to me, until I saw this video. The depth of his thought and the simplicity with which he conveys ideas here is amazing. His arguments are modest, yet demolishing Butt's lack of depth, wisdom and sincerity.
Took the audience awhile to process it. But I think Bart opened some minds. People get too caught up in the "debate" to realize who the audience usually is. The real impact is the thousands of people who watch on the internet. Being from "the belly of the beast" I can assure you that guys like Ehrman are delivering the thousand cuts that many of us need to kill off our irrational selves and to start thinking more clearly.
It was interesting that most of the clapping moved from Butt to Ehrman by the end of the debate.
At 1:06:39 starts the Q&A, which provides possibly the best ever evidence of how low someone (Kyle Butt) will sink to defend his god and his holy book's bankrupt moral system. This is what happens when you rigidly hold to your position without allowing common sense to prevail.
By the way, while Butt was attacking Ehrman with all kinds of little set up attacks, which were disgraceful and irrelevant to the debate, children kept on dying in war zones and from starvation.
I felt almost embarrassed for the theist side, but much of the audience jumped at any opportunity to applaud Butt for his wisecracks. Truly pathetic.
Camerinus Yes, sick and pathetic!
May God opens your eyes
Petrus Jonathan You thought Butt came off looking like anything more than a petulant spoiled child who refuses to use critical thinking skills or reason? If you thought Ehrman lost, you are morally bankrupt.
Best question. "How do you know the mind of god?"
Many thanks Dr. Ehrman! Your compassion and intellect are greatly appreciated.
@1:33:50 Ehrman calling Butt out for the fact that he knows things are wrong and is rationalizing his way back into them as if he couldn't get there without a moral absolute is just fantastic.
You can tell a preacher by his desire to persuade and sad understanding of logic
The difference in this debate is that Dr Ehrmam is focusing on wisdom. Wisdom he has gained through years of study, experience and reflection. He showed that he was wise also to go with this approach knowing that Mr Butt would attack him and his words but not really deliver a "message". Dr Ehrman delivered his message very clearly and that's what I enjoyed the most.
I'll just point out that if you watch all of Ehrman's debates, you will notice that the less educated his opponents are, the less respect and deference they show to him.
Why does anyone debate Kyle Butt when he never actually even tries to argue the other person's points? He preaches instead of debates.
New drinking game - every time Kyle Butt says "watch this," drink! Take another drink if you don't see anything.
Don’t do that!! You’ll die 😂
This is why I can’t debate. I would have lost my rag with my frustration with Butt and his manipulation and twisting of words. And ‘watch this’!! Watch what?!? Nope, I just don’t have the patience!!
I always like how the pro God side always assumes that a God does exist and then proceeds from there.
Gerard Gauthier that's the point of the debate the burden of proof is on both people
That’s called apologetics. They should apologise.
"Watch this ..." is a magician's sleight of hand technique. Enough said.
Mark Twain: Religion was invented the day the first con man met the first fool. Seneca: Religion is true to the common man, false to the wise man and useful to the politician. Both understood the utility of religion.
Wow! I am a believer, but Bart kicked this guy's rear end! - Bart gets one in the W column.
I'm a minute and 30 seconds in, and already Kyle Butts voice is grinding on me !!!
+bonnie43uk For me it's simply the way he (Butt) speaks. I guess it's suppost to sound deliberete and thoughtful but to me it just sounds condescending and arogant.
oggi mog just checking.. You did mean Butt not Erhman didn't you?
bonnie43uk Yea ;) Added it in
+bonnie43uk Yeah, this adds a whole new dimension to the notion of suffering.
dasGagaTier lol
You notice how the only answers to life are answered when your dead.
Every time Dr. Butt would say "Watch this!" I kept adding to the start of it "Hold my beer!"
+Abnormal Wrench He doesn't have a doctorate.
+Abnormal ROFL! great post... Butt might be the dumbest person in the history of CZcams....
+Abnormal Wrench He is not "Dr.", unless you're thinking of "Dr." as in "Dr. Pepper". Even Butt would not be able to come up with a reBUTTal to what I've just said...
Camerinus Indeed. Not "Dr." I'm glad you pointed that out.
Lol so right on!
Just listening to Butt you know what religion is all about.
Most of these guys that specialize in apologetics come off like used car salesmen.
@@BlGGESTBROTHER The trouble is the used car salesman refuses to show you the car!
indoctrination, while they are little babies.
Dr. Ehrman sounded more like a Christian than the Christian in this debate. His arguments are grounded in scripture, while Mr. Butt denies that he even need the Bible to argue some of his points. Listening to Ehrman is music to my ears, I've learned more about theology, history, and transmission of scripture from him than my own pastor. I pray that one day God will once again grant Dr. Ehrman repentance and turn him to the only one who could save him.
Well done as always, Dr. Ehrman. I greatly appreciated your emphasis on the power of humans to respond to the problem of suffering. I felt bad that you had to debate someone who is apparently not at your academic level, although it was amusing. I was frustrated with Mr. Butt's circular "logic" and appeal to what you rightly called Platonism, the idea of objective morality being the perfect "form" after which observable reality is fashioned. As a student with a major in Biblical Studies and a minor in Biblical Languages, planning to pursue graduate work in New Testament, I greatly appreciated your comments on biblical criticism such as redaction, textual criticism, etc.
I'm an agnostic and a deist, I admire Dr Ehrman for his rational and balanced way of thinking, Kyle Butt not only is arrogant but he's only good at winning discussions not debates, my favorite quote from Dr Ehrman; Kyle claims to have the answers, I have the questions and his answers do not satisfy me 👏
In a nobly worded, nobly intentioned statement opening the Nürnberg trials, U.S. Prosecutor Robert Houghwout Jackson presented a warning and a goal: "We must never forget that the record on which we judge these defendants today is the record on which history will judge us tomorrow. To pass these defendants a poisoned chalice is to put it to our own lips as well." That is a critical piece of the Nuremberg Trials. We, as Americans, sadly, have not lived up to our statement, but that is definitely a refutation of Butt's argument.
Love your logic, brilliance, humility, delivery Dr. Ehrman!!
Butt thinks he knows what his god said. He doesn't. All he knows is what some men wrote on pieces of papyrus 2500 years ago. A god didn't write any of the books of the bible. Men wrote them, every single one of them.
Thanking God for saving you when others die is like thanking Ted Bundy for murdering your next door neighbor instead of you.
T Razz: Yes, this is what Butt and others like him do not understand. The issue is that Butt believes god intervenes in his life and helps him and others like him, while god ignores the little children and babies who are starving, being raped, murdered, no clothes, housing, or food.
The revivalist preacher cadence of the christian guy makes him nigh unbearable to listen to.
Yes.
I don't think the cadence of revivalist preaching is terribly effective, but he seemed alright in that regard...
I don't think it is good to have a cadence which is inauthentic, overly optimistic, disingenuous and artificial...
It was also his accent, and his tendency to overly enunciate the consonants at the ends of his sentences.
It's like listening to a used cars sales man
1:15:58 Hold on, God did too condone polygamy. Not necessarily in the case of Abraham, but in Leviticus (and Deuteronomy) when Moses was giving the Israelites the Law, it does specifically say that polygamy is allowed if certain conditions are met. Those conditions being that a second (or third, or fourth, or fifth - there's no limit given, really) wife has to be supported in the same comforts as the first wife. The Law also states that a man can have concubines (AKA sex slaves) in addition to his wives, and the same conditions do not apply to concubines as the wives get. The only way a concubine can leave the man she was sold to (usually by her own father) is if he beats and starves her - then and only then is she permitted to run away without being brought back to him.
Now Christians might say that was in the Old Testament, not the New Testament. Except the New Testament never once mentions how many wives a man may have. Nor does it say anything about the practice of polygamy. This idea of one man and one woman *only* came later after the fall of Rome. Probably because men simply couldn't afford to have more than one wife and it came to be seen as an excess, and with a church that was preaching against excess, well it's easy to see why such a thing would then come to be seen as "immoral." There are still some churches that preach that having sex, even within a marriage, for purposes other than procreation is "immoral."
It really irritates me that Christian apologists continue to pretend that their arguments about God being a requirement for morality have not been soundly debunked.
Gold medal to Kyle Butt for verbal gymnastics.
I think an example of not being able to know what another person thinks comes up in the debate. From the description and throughout the debate Kyle argues against the notion that the existence of suffering disproves the existence of God. Despite Bart even explicitly saying that isn't what he thinks, Kyle continues to believe that this is what he thinks. He then believes he can read the words in the Bible and have access to what God thinks, not just what he thinks that God thinks.
"Agreeing on some gut emotional level" is the definition of faith.
Apes demonstrate that they understand unfairness and injustice. So can we stop with this "evolved from slime over multiplied millions of years" nonsense? Would it hurt so much for people like him to take even a cursory glance at evolutionary psychology?
It's funny that his attempt to quote-mine you to your face failed miserably.
I am from Ethiopia, Professor Bart. I enjoy your teachings. Thank you
Bart, I appreciate your work greatly but Butt constantly makes absolute proclamations of facts about God , what god wants, what he thinks, what he believes god thinks is moral, what's in Heaven , who gets there etc etc why don't you challenge these assertions which have no evidence ?
You can tell the majority of audience were christians, but just because you get more claps doesn't mean you're winning. Ehrman is too good to be debating this man
Something occurred to me a few mins into this listening to Butt where he seems to normalize suffering in the world and that it has to be this way for some reason. But God created the world in the beginning and it was perfect (according to scripture). So, the original intent wasn’t to have suffering and it’s our fault and God can’t fix it except to sacrifice someone and then let the world spiral into chaos for thousands of years until he decides it’s enough. Doesn’t make sense.
Basically, Kyle thinks that suffering is an all purpose tool that's used to solve every possible task God wants.
Butt comes across as an overzealous door to door vacuum cleaner salesman.
Barts closing statement 😭😭😭 Brilliant
Dr. Ehrman, you have way more patience than me. I was cringing at how awful Mr. Butt's answers and questions were. I don't know if I could have resisted the urge to reach over there and slap him for every subject-change, mined quote or blatant setup. Kudos for debating an annoying brick wall of a person.
Dr. Bartman speaks so naturally. I wish the other speakers would do too.
Butt got NAILED in this debate. That Butt had no chance!
Mr Ehrman... everything you are saying here is everything I've been saying too. You are incredible. Please keep doing what you do.
Bart's opponent talks like that Gary Oldman character in The Fifth Element.
Butt... what a truly great surname for him, even in the final five minutes he goes back through where Ehrman is wrong and he is right.. not mentioning suffering, at all.
The story Kyle said about the guy who said his suffering prepared him for eternity - how so?
I'm always amazed at the eloquence that theists are able to misrepresent an atheist/ agnostics points
All that needs to be said to deflate Mr. Butt's arguments is that our evolved capacity for empathy and reciprocity by dint of our advanced cognition accounts for our moral sense of right and wrong (i.e., the ethicality of behavior) and our motivations for acting decently toward other beings. It follows that concepts like fairness and justice are *human* concepts, not endowed by a creator but arising out of our evolved capacity for complex thought. Evolution has produced brains capable of detailed moral and ethical reasoning. And, we might add, these capacities do not suddenly vanish upon one’s deconversion from theism, as Butt seems to suggest on more than one occasion in this debate. After all, one cannot so easily discard a conscience.
But Ehrman did not say this and that's a damn shame :(
I agree. How would a being that is beyond our own conception have a concept of justice or fairness that we can comprehend? It's like trying to tell a molecule what is right or wrong. Theists always seem to want to dance between God's personal nature with human beings and then, the second there are flaws detected with God's actions in terms of our own moral codes, suddenly God is this incomprehensible entity that we actually don't understand at all. Well, which the fuck is it?
Bart, my cousin in the great human family, I feel you. I know these people, they think that Bible is perfect, never changes, and never has. I know that accent from Family of life. That brand of church told my mother she had no right to me bc she wasn't married, she was a horrible sinner for having a baby unmarried, and shamed her so much that to this day she is pained thinking of me. They treated her like crap. They don't want abortions, but they treat their daughters like second class citizens, more like non oeople. They tell their daughters they are not important unless they are Mothers. I know this bc I grew up in that "tradition," they talk in circles and love the gotcha, hit their babies before they are a year old to punish them, hit toddlers to toilet train them, and actually believe no Church of Christ member, except girls, can lie. It's awful. If God exists, I hope he takes pity on them bc they are brainwashed, cultish, and perpetuate the cycle. We may have freedom of religion in America, but they abuse children and women. They should close their doors. They should be forced closed they are truly a cause of suffering. All Church of Christ is like that in my expp. ..everywhere! But,.they make good lawyers. Kyle Butt, here is my question to you: How do you absolve yourself from writing your own Gospel by smashing them all together? I went to Lipscomb, Kyle. I know what our people do. How do you live with yourself? I know the hateful sermons preached that rant and rail about how a woman,a WOMAN CLONE AS WE NOW KNOW, ruined the world, men are more important, women MAKE men sin, and again, men even the dumb men are more important than any educated woman in your church. We are inferior, defective. How do you live with yourself Kyle Butt? I can't believe you think evolution isn't real...except for super fast evolution after a flood THAT DID NOT HAPPEN! Kyle you're dishonest. You want people to believe God is love..And there is no love in the doctrines and orthodoxy preached and taught in those churches. Your version of love is, "do this...or else. Or else what? a reader may ask. "Or else you'll need salivation from what I am going to do to you." Suffering is real, Kyle. And if God made the world he caused it. Remember God created good and evil. Not women! You know the verse And the context of it. God created evil And auffering! And you think we deserve it, just like people who have Stockholm syndrome. The old testament does say to enjoy life bc this is all you get. How do you avoid that scripture, Kyle Butt? Ecclesiastes?. Ring a bell? The dead know nothing and will not be remembered. How you get around it!? Tell me. And God didn't KNOW that Job was Faithful, Kyle Butt? He had to hurt job to prove so.etching to is enemy!? Are you kidding me Kyle Butt? I know you're not. You believe we deserve to suffer, especially women. I know you think men have 'spiritual' obligation. Tell me Kyle, where is my spirit in my body? You can't tell me bc there isn't one. It's not testable, and if it was your claim would be, "Doctors have tested this cell here and here is the spirit, and this cell here is the soul..but you shouldn't test it and know for sure. Don't test God so you can understand him! " And no, Kyle Butt, an all good God would not allow suffering, we would have actual free will unaffected by our digestion, and you would know that suffering is a result of having a nervous system. But you, Kyle Butt, think God designed these bodies to suffer!
If this world is a good sample of the creator's work, then don't expect Heaven to be better.
How do you argue with a sermon? kyle Butt is delivering a sermon and not rational arguments based in fact.
If you want to bypass the introduction...go to the 20 minute stop
This was not a true debate, it was Bart's argument vs. Butt's sermon.
It would be great if someone could link to a debate with someone who even approached the level of intellect, rigour and most of all honesty with Bart.
at the one hour and 48 minute mark Kyle but unintentionally suggests that when babies die they go straight to hell and are burned forever. Way to go Kyle.
In total of it all, Dr Ehrman projects more of the humanity while Mr Butt kept to his high concern in proving his point in which clearly he missed the more important points, even in his closing. Luv you Dr Ehrman!
How can this guy be aware of all the errors in the Bible and still say it's "inerrant"? How can one preach that God is loving and caring and then look at Old Testament quotes that Dr. Ehrman mentions and still believe that God the Creator is loving and caring?
square pegs can fit through round holes. You just have to round the edges a bit and push really hard. That's apologetics.
Always enjoy listening to Bart Ehrman. He clearly won this debate. Butt claims some of the things Ehrman said were inconsistent. Kyle you are basing all your ideas and facts on the bible, which is one of the most inconsistent books ever written by man. And whenever Bart backs him into a corner, Kyle quickly changes the subject. This guy is clearly out of the same league as Bart. I would say Kyle is Butt hurt. lol
The saddest part is that evangelicals have the “luxury” of ignoring things like textual criticism or other types of study looking for truth rather than to find evidence to support what one wants to or already believes.
Bart Ehrman engages in a battle of wits with an unarmed foe.
(Less juvenile than, "This Butt guy is a bit of an a$$.")