Who Wrote the Bible? An Interview with Dr. WIlliam Reed on the Deuteronomisitc History
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- čas přidán 28. 09. 2018
- Who wrote the Old Testament? Why does it seem like things are pieced together? Come join us for a conversation about the early formation of the Old Testament with Dr. WIlliam Reed, who holds a PhD in Hebrew Bible from The Johns Hopkins University.
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GREETINGS! your videos on OT courses are so great and helpful for ONLINE OR VIRTUAL CLASSES NOW A DAYS. BLESSINGS
When people say, "You're biased", what they usually really mean is, "You don't share my bias."
they are bias.....so is your comment
@@gabrielszohner6243 So are you
This is true. My observation is that those who have used that often have their own bias, and they seem blind to their own, but complain about others. I think it's hard when you're emotionally caught up in something (because it's important to you) to see beyond your own emotions to be completely objective. Whether someone who is a bible believing religious person, or a militant atheist. That's actually what I love about the scientific method, it involves seeking proofs, and other people in the field get to question and test your hypothesis before it's accepted.
I can't believe this is free! I know it's not a substitute for a college education but, for a 42 year old without the time, money or desire to go back to college, this is a gold mine! Thank you Dr. Reed and Dr. Josh!
This is a truly facinating channel. I always learn something here!
Please discribe the the Divine weapons. The ( Whirlinng Flaming Sword) ( The Ark of the Covenet) Astra's (India.
The vids are important becouse it is difficult to find any legit vids on the subject. I went through 4 pages of conspiracy theories Planet X excetera and other nonsense to find it. :(
I like the part where Moses describes his own death. He must have had an “out of body” experience.
I agree. Christine Hayes’ Yale lectures are the only other good source I’ve found on CZcams for this.
@@timothymulholland7905 Don't forget that according to traditional authorship theories, Samuel far outdid that feat.
Mythvision has great scholarship
I've been looking for materials about the Bible purely on historical perspective, unbiased by theological/religious persuasion. Thank you guys for sharing your knowledge to the world.
I am still going back and rewatching this interview (among others on the channel) in the same way great documentaries have prime rewatch value, as there is no way you retain it all without revisiting.
Amazing job as always, I hope we see more & more of Dr. Reed on the channel!
Thank you Dr. Josh and Dr. Reed for trying to educate us literary/historical enthusiasts on near eastern culture's beginnings. Good luck on your message being successful!
I would love him to come back and talk about Gnosticism.
This really is a great video, I couldn't be there for most of the live stream, but I really enjoyed watching it all later; and learned some cool stuff too. Thanks so much guys, I really appreciate all these educational videos you make for us, and special thanks to Dr Reed for taking the time to share his expertise in the Hebrew Bible with us. Really great stuff!
Thank you, Dirk! We had a lot of fun talking with him - he’ll definitely be back!
@@DigitalHammurabi Of a certainty, one could turn the 'Bible biased student/scholar argument' on its head; the skeptic raised in an atheistic society who has serious trouble wrapping their head around the archeological evidence too often ignored favoring some biblical claims and needs to be coaxed and coddled into keeping these issues in perspective...
@@alwilson3204 They probably wouldn't have too much trouble with it. It just become part of history like anything else.
Can't believe I just found this channel. This is criminally underrated
I just found this channel a week ago 🎉
This linguistics dating technique is also applied in studying other ancient texts like the Chinese classics. Before western scholarship reached China, it was already commented that the earlier in purport the chapter in the Book of Documents, the easier the language appeared to be, to the commenting scholars. Thus the Books of Yu and Xia are identified to be "supplementaries" from the Warring States period, i.e. composed long after they are purported to be composed. On the other hand, parts of the Books of Shang and Zhou are known to be alien to later scholars but bear resemblance to excavated texts from that actual period, on bronze and oracular inscriptions. On those grounds, these parts are thought to be closer to the time period they describe. There is also a tradition about the Book of Songs that ascribe authorship and editorship to well-known figures contemporaneous to the purported dating of the odes, by later commentators, e.g. some of the odes by the Duke of Zhou, and their redaction by Confucius, when there is little evidence, in and out of the source itself, that either of them ever did so. It is quite striking to see that such issues are also present in other literary traditions.
The curved sword is typically a cavalry weapon and the straight sword an infantry weapon for tight formations and finding gaps in armor. A curved sword is great if you're riding down a foot soldier but not great for formation fighting.
I’m hooked on Berean Bible Church teachings of Preterism. I am so addicted to the information they talk about.
Thanks guys! We really appreciate your channel.
Thank you both. Very informational.
First Time Watcher, First Time Caller.
Thank you again.
Just saying.
Wow, this is a great channel. So glad I got pointed in your direction.
This talk is fantastic. I've been studying this for years, and this structures and informs me of what I I thought I knew..
Thank you so very much for this video! I've been searching for info on this particular subject in CZcams for a long time.
Eeeesede r eye seese
Really diggin your videos, you both are so nice and well spoken, thank you.
Great interview. Much respect for people who do this kind of research. Must be difficult to solve multiple jigsaw puzzles at once with all the pieces jumbled 🙂
What's it with the motifs on your doors, was Dr. Reed in another room in your house or is it a scholarly thing 🤔
Love your content, keep it up 👍👍
Awesome interview! I'm spreading the word about you.
Thank you so much for sharing your Insight and it is very interesting subject. As a Layman we are very rarely privileged to have someone with a doctorate in this subject willing to discuss it so that Layman can follow it and learn something from it. I look forward to listening to your next conversation with the doctor.
Love this! Thank you for the lessons.
V😊😊
If I could get a certificate from watching the interviews, even if for 4 hour, it would be amazing! it's a wonderful source of knowledge.
I am looking forward to another Hebrew Bible analysis, tought provoking evidence-supported Hebrew Bible-Ancient Near Eastern literature relation/influence in this channel :D I hope this channel will continue to grow.
For me your channel is the Hebrew Bible-OT version of Bart D. Erhman (NT scholar). I just want to tell you that many Muslims are watching Bart D. Erhman shows on Christianity history/NT lecturers. I hope soon many Muslims will aware of your great videos on OT :), if your dont mind I will try to refer/mention your channel especially your OT videos :)
This was another fascinating discussion - Thanks for bringing Dr Reed on the share with us.
One question I wonder is about Psalms and Proverbs - If I understand correctly David is credited with Psalms but in regards to this conversation I am curious if there is evidence about the sources of the stories and poems in these chapters. I would guess it would be a collection of items from many generations like a modern book of hymns or poetry and sayings rather than works from a single author.
We can ask Dr. Reed on our next stream with him, if you like? We’ll make sure to publicize it, and you can ask him live :-)
Great show, thank you!
I just became aware of your channel, and I really appreciate what you are doing here. Just superb! Looking forward to catching up on your videos. Subscribed and liked! 🙂
Thank you so much. This was wonderful
In my head ain’t still is not a word. I could easily be your mom, maybe even grandmother, but I’m not too old to learn new things! This is a fascinating lesson. Thanks to Josh, Megan and Dr. Reed. ❤️
Great and highly scholarly discussion.. I enjoyed it. Many thanks.
Thanks for the informative video. If I were to critique anything, it is that I encourage presenters like Dr. Reed to define terms, especially commonly understood (or misunderstood) terms, when he mentions them.
For example, early on Dr. Reed mentions "Israel". Now there will be many listeners who come to the discussion with preconceived ideas of what "Israel" means, and these ideas may be different not only to what Dr. Reed intends but to what other listeners hear. Same with "Canaanites", etc.
It is all too easy to reify religious beliefs.
Understood, and thank you! We’ll try and have people define terms in he future
Thanks. You did a pretty good job recently when you briefly discussed the various ancient languages you study and how they relate to the topics you cover.
In the example I gave here, when a viewer hears a speaker say "Israel" I wonder how they interpret that:
1) The "Omri-land" (a term that Finkelstein has used I believe) near the Sea of Galilee;
2) The (traditional religious) idea of invaders into Canaan who came from Egypt (with Cecil DeMille flourishes!);
3) Some mystical body of religious believers;
4) The current nation-state of Israel, which I suspect many young people may think is the ancient extent of "Israel".
And so on.
It will be hard to touch on a religious topic without an audience already programmed to believe particular interpretation of any word.
Wonderful content I enjoy listening
Super interesting! Thank you!
Great show! I actually watched it first in 2019, but now I got an account and can vote up :-)
I really appreciate you guys making the work and knowledge of legitimate scholars as available as you have, in this format. It's difficult to find rational discussion about a lot of the topics that you cover. You guys always bring on excellent people who help give context to the bible in particular. It's helpful in trying to read and discuss the bible with some shred of rationality.
Very informative and interesting video..
Excellent content always
Awesome!
Awesome
When possible, it would be cool if you could put the titles and authors of books mentioned in the descriptions! =)
Oh! I try to do that - thank you, I’ll work on this video tomorrow and track everything down.
@@DigitalHammurabi Oh wow! Thank you! Seriously, you guys are awesome! I love that you guys have access to such good guests like this too. It's so rare to get to see them outside of academia, able to explain things in a way we can all understand!
@@DigitalHammurabi, did you ever finish a list of authors and books?
By the way awesome show!
Thank you for the scholarly information about the Bible. I certainly never got this in the church.
I love all the detail. Of all the explanations I've heard, first time I've heard the P / not P theory.
Yeah, echoing what the doctor said, the default position on who wrote Pentateuch is "we don't know", not Moses. The books are anonymous and written in the third person throughout. That's the starting point. And the evidence pointing to Moses or any single author from the 2nd Millenium BCE is nonexistent. Instead the opposite is true: for example, they narrate the death of Moses. And then we get to the clear indications that the authors are living centuries after Moses, like Gen 12:6, where the times of the Canaanites is in the past tense. Also Israelites having kings is mentioned several times. Cities and nations that didn't exist in Moses' times are mentioned, like Philistines and Chaldeans etc. And the language is standard Hebrew, when Hebrew didn't really exist in Moses' time.
Guys, just a small critique... please remember that you might have listeners who are new to one thing or another, and maybe in the summary leave definitions for people. Such as J and E, exilic (sp?), doublets, maybe links for bible passages, or remind people to get their bible so they can follow along. Thanks.
Just in case others have the same problem:
J: where God is referred to as Jehovah/Yahweh
E: where God is referred to as Elohim
This was a great video. I didn't understand all of the terminology. Maybe I need to go back in your videos to learn more about it. I grew up learning (I think) that Moses wrote the pentateuch. It's cool to see scholarly work. Thank you.
I’m editing the Formation of the Pentateuch video as we speak! I actually sent it to Dr. Reed to review it, and he stands behind it :-) It should come out very soon!
Exciting! I'll keep an eye out for it!
great episode. dr reed is awesome. the bible is such a mystery, but apparently, not so much if you throw linguistics at it. thank you all for what you do.
Thanks 👍
Y'all have great chemistry, by the way. How many vids have you gotten to do with Dr. Reed?
Currently this is the only one, but Dr. Reed has kindly agreed to do some Hebrew language videos for us, and will definitely be back for another interview!
@@DigitalHammurabi isn't it past your bedtime? 😋
Thinking that people of the past “ believed” something leads to legend. People have always questioned the dictates those who want to dominate them.
Wow! Megan has a lot of hats!
That was a great wee nugget there about the German j for Yahwey.
Didnae ken that.
Professor Andrew Kitchen, an Egyptologist, has expressed skepticism about the Wellhausen multiple authors paradigm.
I find myself agreeing with him.
WHY?
I came across an observation made by an ancient Greek author who explained that to write a History, the author has to have have an ending in view for his work: A framework has to be in place to build the History about, (1) a beginning, (2) a middle and (3) an ending.
The beginning should allude to or foreshadow the ending and the ending should allude to the beginning. This is called a RING COMPOSITION.
I see such a Ring Composition existing in the Primary History (Genesis-2 Kings).
The beginning, the removal from the Garden in Eden of Adam and Eve for disobeying God, FORESHADOWS THE ENDING:
The ending being God's REMOVAL OF ISRAEL AND JUDAH FOR DISOBEYING HIM.
If I am correct about Genesis and 2 Kings being a RING COMPOSITION, this suggests for me that the Primary History, Genesis-2
Kings is the work of ONE AUTHOR, NOT a mishmash of various authors over an extended period of time embracing several centuries of redactions.
This author had access to earlier, conflicting sources, he thought worthy of including in his historical work (examples being TWO conflicting accounts of the Creation and TWO conflicting accounts of Noah's Flood).
WHEN was Genesis-2 KIngs composed?
It was composed between 562-and 560 BC in the Babylonian Exile, to give a reason to the exiles for why Israel and Judah are in Exile, for offending God by disobedience to his laws, given by Moses at Mt. Sinai.
The proof?
The LAST DATABLE item in the Primary History (Genesis-2 Kings) is 2 Kings 25:27, and the mention of the Babylonian King Evil Merodach, who reigned only 3 years (562-560 BC) when assassinated in a palace putsch.
The biblical author makes no mention of Evil Merodach's death, or of the three Babylonian kings who succeeded him before Babylon was captured by Cyrus of Persia.
Another clue?
No mention of Persia in Genesis' Table of Nations.
The Medes are mentioned in Genesis' Table of Nations, but by 550 BC they disappear as a great world power when absorbed by Cyrus's Persian Empire.
So the question remains: why can't the Deuteronomistic History be multiple 'ring compositions' merged together, and edited into a final one by a final editor?
Thank you both for a great discussion. A small correction: counterintuitively, it is the J source that lists seven pairs of the clean animals in the Flood Story and P that has just one pair of all kinds.
On the matter of critical study and faith, I encourage believers to adopt an incarnational view of Scripture. This means that Scripture, besides having a divine side, will have an all-too-human side. Compare Rom 8:3, "in the likeness of sinful flesh," i.e., having the outward appearance of flawed humanity or a flawed human product. Also, believers must finally acknowledge that God is capable of using (gasp) myth and legend as vehicles of spiritual revelation. He can even communicate by means of propositions in tension with each other, as Jesus himself demonstrates in his comments about divorce (Mt 19:3-9).
Hey, I also live in Maryland, I’m a Jew and have so many questions! Do you ever do meet and greets with your fans? I just found your channel
Can you get a guest that can explain the hypotheses that compete with the Documentary Hypothesis such as the supplemental or fragmentary hypothesis?
Reed attributes Gen 7:2 to P (bringing seven clean animals on the ark). That's a common mistake of memory. It's J, even though it has to do with sacrifice. P would never allow sacrifice outside the temple/tabernacle.
Oh this clip is like 2 years old lol
@@abhbible good point anyway
Yes. At around 48:13. Was definitely jarring to hear him say that. It's hard to understand how he could get it backwards.
Does anyone know if Dr. Reed was talking about Southeastern Baptist in Laurel?
Can you make future discussions to cover all the parts of the ancient middle east and probably enlisting the help of different people.
Does Dr. Reed authored any books? Interested in supporting his work.
What is the relationship between Ancient Hebrew and the Canaanite language?
Can you talk about Ebla sometime
Ok, here is what is baffling me. How do so many people actually get totally grown up without having any information at all on the mainstream scholarly positions in these fields? When I was a kid I was curious and I read things - as much as I could get my hands on. I just can't imagine having reached adulthood without a fairly clear picture of the structure of world opinion on... well, more or less everything. I'm bringing this up specifically in regard to the simple fact that scholars no longer believe Moses wrote the first five books - it's like people get SURPRISED by this AS ADULTS, and that just leaves me practically speechless. Especially for people growing up in a first world nation like the United States. I don't see how one would AVOID encountering this idea during childhood.
When did the division of if there is a redacter in the documentary hypothesis happen?
Very interesting..... Thank you. I do have a question. Were there animal sacrifices recorded in the J document?
I think it would be interesting to have a video explaining how we know whether or not we have the original texts. I mean I hear scholars say we don't have originals of the gospels. But how do we know the oldest manuscripts we have are not the originals? How do we determine if the oldest manuscript we have is a copy of the original or the original itself?
Don't get me wrong I'm not making any claim we do have the originals, I'm just curious how we know whether a manuscript is or isn't the original.
Much of this began as oral tradition. So, there is no "original" per se.
Ehrman has some good vids on this for the NT. Simple answer: we have no access to the originals to answer your question
@@stuartc9149 These sources are all theoretical, just basic speculation
@0:6:28 Dr. Reed say the class discussion was about what?? I've played it over a bunch and can't figure it out. Masoritic Val Appointments? Can anyone tell me what he's saying there?
Masoretic "vowel pointing". The vowel markings that were added to the original (consonant only) Hebrew script.
@@martinmckee5333 Thanks!
Is there any truth in the idea that in places Yahwehs sword refers to Ashereh, his wife? Or am I way off with that? Fantastic video, by the way. Thank you from the ExJehovahs witness posse by the way!
Is it true that it is not known who wrote the original versions of each chapter being discussed or even who revised the stories over the years?
Thank you for bringing up the language thing, it's actually rarely talked about. Languages change over time, you can't expect anyone to say that Shakespearean English is the same as modern English and that we wouldn't know the difference. Same with Moses, his language would be different from Jeremiah's Hebrew just as Jeremiah's Hebrew differs from Daniel's etc. except it doesn't differ other than in the victory song in Ex. 15.
Meanwhile, kitty sleeps blithely through the whole interview.
She has no choice. She can’t get off that bed without help.
I would like to know if there is such of name for God as Elokim? I was reading a Torah and I saw that name. If there is a difference on the name Elohim and Elokim? Thanks.
Its identic. „K“ is only spoken instead and substituting the written „H“, to avoid spelling God‘s name, as it is written.
What other civilizations co existed at the same time as those discussed in this video? India? China? Etc? They had different writings, books, stories, etc?
“How great dr reed is” 😊
So you have scholarly articles on the New Testament and present day Christianity?
Dr Reed and Dr Josh, What is the evidence that there was a united monarchy of Israel and Judah?
Did you say weapons in ancient world? The military history nerd in me is intrigued.
He did! We’ll have Dr. Reed back on to tell us about divine weaponry 😁
@@DigitalHammurabi That would be great. Would Dr. Reed also cover Mycenaean weaponry?
Interesting. Will we continue to pray to the past? Will we see the present?
Examine the other spiritual traditions of humanity. Each culture seeks to define that which eludes definition. We are one being many being One.
The vowel pointings as divinely inspired? WTF? That’s a new one!
Bristleconejones It makes about as much sense as the consonants being inspired.
Whats your take on Jehovah`s Witnesses in regards to their scholarship
Shalom b'nai or I am a essene Nazarite levite yochanan Cohen sholom I have been researching documentary hypothesis for years I'm a fan of Richard Elliot Freeman Bible with sources revealed we do think the book of Deuteronomy was written or rewritten by Baruch Jeremiah scribe. What say you?
I'm about 44 minutes in and you're talking the "doubles". I understand where you guys are going but either I missed the example of a "double" or you guys cant remember one specifically by text. Yes, genesis 1 vs 2 but give us a phrase or something.. Other than that so far so good.
doubleTs
The Torah itself did not get written until the early 3rd Century BCE [see Russell Gmirkin]. [Also note there was no “history” of Egypt or Babylon written before the 3rd Century BCE (at least not that we know of].
I don’t know how long it took for the rest of the Tanak to be written. The Jews are silent about that and we only have ONE fable from the Hasmonians (“the Letter of Aristes”) about when the Torah was supposedly translated to Greek.
IMO, all the books of the OT were written anonymously (or attributed to “certain important people”) and no one knows when, or at least they never tell us. We have to guess or “read between the lines”. [IMO, some time between the 3rd and 2nd Century BCE.]
Hell of a way to run a religion, but necessary when there is so much that needs to remain hidden.
New archeological findings show that common practice of Judaism began in 2nd century BCE.
With all the pasting together that was done to the Tanakh and the rest of the Bible.
Is there a book or a couple of books that actually show the correct order in writing...
has anyone ever done this??
It seems like after two thousand years someone would have actually put the correct order to each book of the Bible even if it didn't make any sense.
Funny, just started listening to the video and a religious ad came on with a little girl praying to god to help a hurt bird. (eye-roll)
Where are the non belief ads? Where are the atheist ads?
I've NEVER seen an ad for non-belief.
The discussion on magic in the Bible made me wonder what the difference between magic and what God does is.
Couldn't it be said that to believe in gods and creation is to believe in magic? Isn't the supernatural magical if it did occur? Do Judeo Christians view the creation as a miracle? If so, then wouldn't it follow that they believe in magic?
I pose that what we can observe and measure and prove with the scientific method is natural and that if someone could duplicate what is thought to be a miracle, we would be able to study it and find how it occurs and it would not be "supernatural" it would only be natural.
I heard that the disappointment regarding inerrancy of the Bible caused you to become agnostic. I think that you can still pursue the spiritual, which is much broader than the biblical version. I try to consider many approaches because a materialistic understanding is too limited. I have a strong intuition that there is some kind of creative intelligence guiding creation, but I am agnostic regarding what that is.
There has to be a Creative Spirit behind all the wonders and living miracles of this universe... not the same as the limited "God " in the judaeo-christian scriptures.
So I am a bit behind in watching, but what a great video about the bible. And what is true opposed to what I was taught by wannabe scholars in the jdub cult. Look forward to catching up on your videos!
Are you familar with Mauro Biglino. He says that the old testament literal translation does not mention God or hell. It does mention genetic engineering. What do either you know if his work?
Not only that, he also mentioned "Ruach" is a some sort of a "machine"... and on Sodom have been used some sort of a weapon(nuclear or something) and so on...
More
Confused. I thought there was broad concensus that there was never such a person called Moses?
So why would it still be a question that he authored anything?
There is no such consensus. However, there is probably a consensus that much (or most) of the stuff written about Moses in the Bible did not happen as described. Still, there might have been some kind of historical priestly figure (possibly of Egyptian origin) called Moses, around whom traditions later formed. It's possible, although far from certain.
If there was a historical Moses, elements of biblical traditions might derive from his influence. However, there are excellent reasons to believe that much (or most, or perhaps all) of the Bible was written much later.
@@sb5403 I've read a few Bible historians.... and so far they all say pretty much 'no Moses'.
Since there was no Exodus.... either... and the stories attributed to Moses seem to look Plagiarized from other mythic characters (Dionysius etc.).... where does speculating that there might have been 'a guy' get us? The only interest this 'guy' has is if the stories written about him were true.
They are not. So that's where my interest stops.
Gentlemen, please remember the OT was written by Jewish APOLOGISTS. [Think of how “reliable” or “truthful” Christian apologists have been about Christianity.] All you see in the OT is from the Jewish perspective.
They were not “persecuted” for their religion, as they claim. They kept rebelling against those who had already conquered them and to whom they had SWORN allegiance to “in the name of God” to be faithful vassals The nations who where the Empires of the ME did the same thing to ANYONE who refused to pay tribute to them.
Every king of Judah chose to withhold tribute or to conspire with others to rebel in some way except for Manasseh, the king the priests hated more than all the others. However, Manasseh reigned longer than any other Judean king and his reign was also the most peaceful and prosperous reign of any Judean king, precisely because he remained a faithful vassal to Assyria.
The closest thing to “HISTORY” you will find ANYWHERE in the OT is from the Annals of the Kings of Israel and Judah (which only recorded their names and the number of months or years of reign and nothing else - all the rest about them was made up by later editors). The rest of the OT are stories they took from others [mostly the Greeks, but probably also the Assyrians (from whom they got their alphabet and secrets later called “Kaballah”), Babylonians and Persians].
Can anyone recommend a detailed book on the documentary hypothesis?
Is the guest interviewed, or is the host interviewing himself ???!!!
Is it possible that Abraham himself wrote in cuneiform? If so could some of those tablet's still exist?
?
Abraham, was a origin or foundational mythological character like adam, eve, noah, moses etc.
I tried in vain looking for more dr william reed videos on you tube... 😰
Linguistically I don't think it's Yahweh....
I think linguistically say the last part of the name would be more like 'wah'.
What do you think am I correct?