IEM Tip Rolling Guide: Factors, Effects and Recommendations
Vložit
- čas přidán 27. 07. 2024
- Welcome Ladies and Gentlemen!
Today I have for you a "short" video about IEM tip rolling, the aspects it should try to improve on and factors influencing the effect of the used tips.
The full, written article can be found in the following:
docs.google.com/document/d/1T...
And as usual, here are the timestamps:
0:00 Introduction & Disclaimer
1:15 What should a good tip do?
2:12 What tips should improve on: Comfort, Isolation, Shape Sound
2:53 Shaping sound
5:52 General Effects of tips on Sound
6:25 Effect on sound 1: IEM itself
8:04 Effect on sound 2: Bore size
10:05 Effect on sound 3: “Cylinder shape”
13:24 Effect on sound 4: Insertion depth
16:40 Effect on sound 5: Material
21:10 What tips do I personally recommend? - 1. Disclaimer
22:00 - 2. Know what you like/want
22:44 - 3. & 4. Wider bore tips & experiment with sizes
23:55 - 5. Concrete recommendations: Xelastec
23:30 - 5.1. Concrete recommendations: Spiral Dot
24:00 - 5.2. Spinfit
25:39 - 5.3. Foam tips: Tin tips & Comply
26:20 - 6. Keep all of the tips, that worked for you
26:57 Experiment for yourself!
27:27 Outthrow
If you have any questions, if I got anything wrong, if you have critiques or if you have any other feedback, please let me know in the comments :-)
And with this!
Donspektor!
Out!
Clarification: In the video, I say "you generally can not make an IEM you don't like, into something you like by tip-rolling" and with this I mean you can not change the overall signature. Of course, you can, and that's one of the beauties of tip-rolling, tam i.e. upper-mids/lower treble to reduce some shout, increase a lacking bass etc.
Glad someone speaks about this in the hobby. Thank you.
Noticed on the IEM's that I own tips mean EVERYTHING. No seal no bass.
Hot treble can be alleviated somewhat with tips.
Tonality seems off.
Try some different tips.
One might stand out and it's not always the ones you expect to be good.
@@rialdoroeloffze628 Thank you for your kind words :-)
Especially seal and insertion depth do a whole lot to the sound of IEMs. The former usually gives you good bass and the latter usually helps to prevent resonance peaks.
The ultimate guide on eartips !
Thank you :-)
I think though I can do better and plan to do an other video about it :-)
Good video, still relevant. Thanks
New sub keep the iems coming! Just got meastro mini yesterday
Nice :-)
The graph is so interesting, just a bit difficult to get in Europe... But it definitively is on my list high up :-)
Very thorough video, great job, thank you.
It took me months to get to most of this knowledge. It would be cool to see a video on tips modding (vent, reversing tips...)
I'll mostly only "mod" foam tips, but will look into it, definitively a topic worth going over in detail :-)
Good guide, very thorough and no advertising/biasing involved💯👍
Sub & like well earned.
Really helpful, mach weiter so 👌😉
Thanks :-)
Appreciate your nice feedback :-)
@@don_spektor Hast du den cca cra bzw. machst du vill. ein Review darüber. Ist vor kurzem erschienen und scheint für 15€ extrem gut zu sein 👀
The hobby musician and Dave’s journey are 2 good u tube videos on custom making ear molds!
Thanks dude :-)
Will have a look at their content on the weekend as I'm unfortunately pretty busy during the week...
We can enhance the performance of the original ear tips that come with the IEMs through a simple tweak, eliminating the need for expensive replacements. I utilized a small strip of Blu Tack, wrapping it around both bores/tubes of my IEMs behind the silicone ear tips' flaps. To ensure effectiveness, I straightened the flaps attached to the tubes before wrapping the Blu Tack strip and then covered the flaps back. This tweak imparted the IEM with a combined sonic character of both silicone tips and foam tips.
The results were noticeable - passive noise isolation improved by nearly 70%, the bass and sub-bass became tighter and more controlled, the treble revealed more details, vocals gained a crisper quality, and the soundstage exhibited an extension. This tweak worked remarkably well for IEMs using only a single BA driver, such as FIIO FA1 and other budget IEMs like those from KZ, CCA, and TRN. You can experiment with different impacts by applying half or full-filled strips of Blu Tack on various shapes and sizes of ear tips' holes/bores. My favorite improvement is achieved by wrapping a half-filled Blu Tack on round-shaped and large hole/bore tips. Feel free to explore and innovate, as there's nothing to lose
Thank you for this detailed description :-)
Blue Tack unfortunately is a bit difficult to get by where I live, but I should be able to find something similar to try it myself.
Thank you again :-)
Can you show some pictures? A full strip of blu tak sounds like a lot so I'm having trouble visualizing it. I wonder what other materials could be used.
Thanks for your reply on finding the perfect fit for my Ikko oh 10 in ear monitors! Also wanted to let you know about 2 additional ways to help improve ear tip fit! Try pulling earlobe while inserting ear tips, and also purchasing wing tips to help insertion! Going to purchase wing tips and see if that works! Pulling my earlobe helps insertion for me! Thanks for your help! Let me know if you do a video on home made custom ear monitors! Dave Melnick
Thanks, I didn't know about the earlobe tip, will try that tomorrow when I'm commuting to work :-)
The wings tip I have heard before but getting them on IEMs can be a bit tricky so I haven't experimented with it so far.
I would want to make a video about DIY-custom-tips, as I already have "real custom" tips and hence could compare here. Do you have any sourced (video/text) who also attempt this? If there are already good /renowned sources, that would give me a good starting point :-)
And I'm glad, I could help you with this video, that's why I make them :-)
Great review by ya, donspektor, got into the tws field bout 6 monthz ago..bought a pair of sabbat e12 ultraz, and outta the 7 pair they sent, one pair acctually worked good..so , i tried ta up the anti, by getting the final audio e series kit with thoze stupid adapters, my nozzle screenz on my sabbatz are close to the edge, waznt even payin attention to putting the adapters, on , and next thing i know, bofh my nozzle screenz are layin down inside of each nozzle..firzt i thought sabbat sent me a defective pair..but i didnt want too send em back, cauze they sound great..i fixed the screenz mazelf..i thought i waz gonna need thoze godforsaken adapters, and i didnf..none of the eartips that came with the final e set did anything..anyway , went and bought a pair of lypertek sf s20z..sound amazing, like my sabbatz do..was acctually able to use a set of the final e set silicon on my lypertekz..sound great, and i , put, comply/ znari t500z on my sabbatz..never needed, that e set adapter, and good luck to anyone who buyz that eset with the adapter, thinz are dangerous , and there iz no way to put thoze adapters on...my learning curve haz passed..i ave 5 pair of twsz, and im getting to really know, seal/ tipz/ fit , create the best sound..great review by ya..peace
For me. Nozzles from iem gave to be long. Because of swear and sports. They grip better. For tips. Silicone tips are better for heat and bass. Foam tips are bad for sports. They get water into the foam and bass gets absorbed by the foam. So you loose bass. Small hole gives more bass and less treble . Bigger hole gives more clarity and less bass. So I use foam tips for iem with big bass and home use. Silicone for gym use.big hole for bass iem. And small hole for iem with small bass.for better grip in all occasions, i use the triple flange tips, and I cut the last flange,so it gets 2 and does not go to deep inside. Then its perfect fit and bass extention. I am an extensive iem collection and 2 boxes of tips. So I try all. Foe iems that have to much treble, I get this cottons filters that you can buy from ali express. The low intensity filter and place inside the tip to cut the treble.
if i understood, didn't the video say u want the eartip to be short so the driver is close to your ear? doesn't dual flange tip make it farther?
i'd like to know if it's true that users from enthusiast sites such as Head-Fi often report increased bass (and decreased highs) due to a ‘funneling’ effect of the sound into the ear canal.
which is better if there is fit issue? spinfit or dual flange?
yes, that's how I see it also. It's like applying EQ. A tip with a longer distance between nozzle end and the end of the tip (tube length) makes for more bass (sort of like a bass port on a bookshelf speaker). Also narrower tip opening reduces treble.... so a long tip with narrow opening is the most bass + least treble, and so on. Recently several IEM makers include two silicone tip types... olive shaped (longer) and mushroom shaped (shorter) Olive are longer tube, mushroom shorter tube... plus the shorter IEM has a larger opening. So clearly IEM makers see that their customers would like to tune, or EQ, their IEM with different shapen/length tips.
Well here's a rabbit hole I'd not expected. I have a bit of a dogleg in my right ear so I always have a little trouble fitting that side.
It absolutely is :-)
Since I have a measuring rig, I also measure all of my tips and the results there are also widely fascinating.
the new Tripowen MELE which I have had for a week has a shallow tip with a very wide opening.. much wider than any tip I have ever seen. Clearly when Tripowen were testing the MELE, they probably noticed a lacking treble with the usual narrow tip opening... so they fix this problem by offering a very wide opening tip when they sell this IEM.
Love your u tube video! I own a pair of Ikko oh 10 in ear monitors! The closest tips that work for me is the dakoni foam tips! My right ear is smaller than my left so I use a small on my right ear and a medium on my left! Thought of purchasing the jvc spiral dots in medium and small. Do you know what material they are made up of? I love foam but hate silicone because of the feel and overall sound that comes from using these ear tips!!! What was the foam tips brand you suggested? Also thought of purchasing triple flange ear tips, have you ever tried them? I work at a manufacturing plant and love the snug fit I get plus the sound isolation I get using these type of ear plugs! Please follow up and give me any advice to help me get the right fit! Also thought of making my own iems from do it yourself ear plugs! Thank you for your help and support!!!
Glad you enjoyed it and that I could help you at least a bit :-)
Spiral dots should also be silicon, but I can't tell you how hard/soft they are. Unfortunately, they are a bit difficult to get by here in Germany...
Foam also exists in different types: from smooth to sticky, dense to "light". Price to performance wise, the Tin audio tips are very decent (even though a bit thick), otherwise flare audio foams (these exist in S, M and L as far as I know) are also supposed to be pretty good and not that expensive. Comply tips are very soft and squishy but don't last that long and are pretty pricy. If you like foam to be a bit more dense and more "springy", dekoni foam tips are your choice there.
Triple flange I have two different kinds here and don't like them. They insert too deep to my ear-canal without an easy bending like i.e. spinfits. Double flange generally work for me... Only the size of the second flange is most of the time a bit too big for my ear canal^^
You actually CAN make an iem that you don't like sound great with tip rolling. I've done it a few times. Shouty iems with harsh treble for example, I've tamed with tips that sit the driver further away from you eardrum. Try ePro horn tips or even Spinfit tips if you'd like to fix a set of iems that sound tinny or harsh
Yes and no. This highly depends on how big the "dislike" is: if you are just not fine with i.e. a few treble/ upper-mid peaks, a few dB too much base etc. you can tame these with other tips.
But it certainly is not possible to i.e. turn a v-shaped IEM into something neutral or something neutral into something "fun", just with tip-swapping.
In general, we are talking about a few dB +/- at very specific parts of the frequency response only and, hence, a pretty minor tuning of some aspects. But not "I don't like the whole frequency response of the IEM, I change tips and suddenly I do like them".
@@don_spektor that's all I'm saying. I have tamed iems I have been disappointed with because of harshness with tip rolling. I hated my ISN H40 for example, until I tip rolled. It became one of my favorites once I tried spinfit cp145 on them. Later I tried ePro Horn ep01 and now they're just incredible. The stock tips however, were a very harsh listen. Tip rolling is very very important. Thanks for the video, I enjoy your content
@@acroyear23 I maybe should have clarified this point in the video even more, as generally we seem to be agree here... I'll write a comment, that I pin to not confuse other viewers.
Hi Don, thank you for this comprehensive summary, I found this detailed and factual, with good clarifications and the necessary caution about claims one can read at other places.
I have a question though: Do you know which OEM tip comes with the Dunu Talos? I mean the black one with the colourful inner cylinder. It's such a nice, wide-bore tip, not Dunu-branded, and I was wondering if you encountered something similar before.
Thank you for your kind words :-)
Unfortunately I do not know who is making the black tips of the Talos and I also have not seen them so far in other IEMs. But good to know Dunu also choose those well :-)
Maybe I'll also manage to grab Talos to check it and the tips out myself :-)
what about dual or triple flange tips? doesn't that put the driver too far away? and yet it is said to produce better sound?
Again, this question depends. If you can push the dual or tripe flange tip right to the bottom of the IEM, then the drivers will be as far away as they would be with any other tips. If not, then it can change the sound, compared to same diameter tips that insert less. I personally don't like tripe flange tips, they just get uncomfortable so quickly... And dual flange tips from my experience are not noticeable different from "normal length" single flange tips.
bro
do you have recommendation for eartip that just cut the sub bass(without changing any frequencyes belong midbass)???
Hey Tejo
Hmm, good question.
So far no: all of the tips I have tried do only affect upper mids and treble. Bass does not get lowered by a noticeable margin. However, wider bore and horn-shaped tips can create the feeling of less base due to them having more forward treble.
Right on time brother i have an issue with my eartips on my tanchjim oxygen where it get loose and stuck in my ear holes.i use L size eartips.could you recommend any L size eartips that fits my tanchjim oxygen noozle?my sound preference is bass with good tonality and sound stage.thank you!
Hey, sorry I'm not sure if I understand you:
does the tip come off the nozzle?
If so, you might need to consider tips with a smaller inner cylinder. Spinfit Omni are pretty good there for me. Please note though, the Omni are relatively short and I'm not sure if that's to your liking.
Bro which kz eartips are more comfortable Black ( Starline ) or white one...I want maximum comfort in ears
I only have the DQ6 here at the moment and those only have the white/transparent ones included. So I can not tell you, I'm sorry...
I tried several tips on the AFUL P5. Silicone is not all the same. some are thin and flexible, some are thick and rigid. Take a Spinfit W1. Very thin silicone (similar also moondrop Spring), and with this thinness, some use the word flimsiness, I could not get a good seal and bass died. Tried all sizes of W1, size wasn't the issue. Final E is thick silicone, and I got a very good seal and very good bass, from two of the five sizes. I also have thick silicone wide bore tips (those that cvame with Tripowin MELE, and Olina) that offer great bass.... very strange, wide bore, and very good bass. To me the thickness of the silicone, both narrow bore (Final E) or Wide bore, both offer correct bass energy due to providing a firmer, more stable seal than thin silicone tips do.
The tip opening diameter affects, it seems to me, mostly the treble transmission., not the bass transmission. Narrow bore can cause narrow wavelength treble sound waves to crash into each other from reflecting off the inside of the narrowing bore. It appears bass is improving, but actually not, it is the treble that diminishes making the balance shift to more bass, without actually more bass being transmitted. Wide Bore don't even touch the treble waves.... they go straight into the ear canal.
well, that is my working hypothesis at the moment.
I'm absolutely with you here in terms of the effects on the sound and my measurements of different tips on the H40 and A7 seem to support this hypothesis... Although they were don't without the fake pinna. Keep in mind though, that the insertion depth also matters for resonance reasons: e.g. On the Quintet the deeper you go, the less the upper treble is pronounced, which my measurements also showed.
And so far I have now hypothesis on how insertion depth effects sound... I'll probably make a follow up on this video, if I have one.
Hi Don :) in the video on 14:47 - which eartips are those? Thanks.
These are "no name" tips that came with the LZ A7.
is it true that foam tips increase bass but make sound muddier? e.g. "users from enthusiast sites such as Head-Fi often report increased bass (and decreased highs) due to a ‘funneling’ effect of the sound into the ear canal."
This strongly depens on how the foam tip is shaped and how long it actually is. Something like the Comply Soundcore do not increase base noticeably but smoothen treble a bit, while other tips with a more narrow bore will increase bass while also decreasing treble. If you have short foam tips or if you shorten them yourself, so that they have the same length as the nozzle, then there won't be any effect whatsoever. Especially for thicker nozzle IEMs, shortening foam tips is the way to go, as that gives you "the pure IEM" sound as well as the isolation and comfort of foam.
@@don_spektor tyvm!
What's the name of the wider bore tips? The ones with the blue center.
Good question, I got them with my LZ A7 about a year ago and haven't seem them anywhere else since then. I did try looking them up but haven't been able to find the exact model. Sorry, I wish I could help you here more... :(
What are your thoughts on Spinfit ear tips for IEMs? I've been looking at those, but I'm not sure if I should either stick with the stock tips or go for aftermarket ones. I'm using the GK GS10 IEMs.
Spinfit are pretty good. I have tried CP360 and CP100 and liked both, but the CP360 usually are for longer nozzle IEMs. Also I have heard food things about the Spinfit Omni, but I haven't had the chance to try it yet^^
However there are ddHifi ST35, these are very close to Spinfit tips... But they are way cheaper :-)
I'd probably recommend these over Spinfit :-)
@@don_spektorthe ddhifis look okay, but I don't like the color on those, so those are a maybe.
@@CoasterMan13Official @CoasterMan13Official Ignore color: they will be in your ear, you'll not see them 95% of the time^^
Alternatively as stated before, take a look at the spinfits, these generally are renown to be a good tip... They are just very close to the ST35 for more money, hence I'd rather rec the ST35.
Hey can you recommend some for taming treble
Mid-treble or upper treble?
Generally, smaller outlet tips seem to reduce mid and upper treble. Or the Velvet tips also tend to reduce upper treble, but these are pretty unique in terms of shape and fit^^
what is that bone induction looking attachment to the tin iem???
I'm sorry, I do not understand what are you asking for?
@@don_spektor guess he meant "bone conduction" and he refers to the concha facing side of your IEM shell which has this "weird" old telephone ring dial looking thing. He thought that there might be a part which induces vibrations to achieve bone conduction sound transmission. Some IEMs have things like that to emphasize on the low frequencies, but that's mostly a psychoacoustic phenomenon in my opinion.
which is better if there is fit issue? spinfit or dual flange?
You only ask questions, that can be answered with "it depends" ;-)
I personally find the fit in terms of pure security with dual flange better than spinfit, but spinfit are close behind it while, when you have the right size, being more comfortable.
But keep in mind: right size with spinfit also means finding the correct length. CP360 for instance have a shorter stem and will fit different than CP100, which have a longer stem.
I do prefer the CP360 with most of my IEMs but my ear canal is also rather small so "deep inserts" usually get uncomfortable for me quicker^^
@@don_spektor alright, so based on my interpretation of your answers, i can get the most accurate sound and fit if i just get foam and cut it as short as possible? let's hope this question isn't a "it depends" lol
@@Viewer13128 Yes. This time it isn't "it depends" ;-)
Just make sure, the foam tips you get have the right diameter for the nozzle of the IEM you want to use them on and you are good to go.
This "cut tip" is for instance the ONLY way I can get the Moondrop Variations to fit my ear, as the nozzle is soooooo wide and even then its eversoslightly too wide for my ear. But certainly much better than non-cut or any other silicone tip I do currently have.
IS THERE ANY ACTUAL ROLLING THAT OCCURS?
Not that I saw, shit annoyed me
I have about 70 pairs of eartips in all sizes
Do you EQ?
Most of the time not.
Especially on the go, I use IEMs as they are and only "retune" them with the right tips.
At home, however, I do use EQ to fix minor issues i.e. the treble balance of the Elegia.
I'm currently experimenting with EQ on my DIY headphone, as the driver has a 5dB dip around 500Hz that I couldn't resolve with foams, without sacrificing mid-details...
And if you are asking, what EQ I'm using: Equalizer APO in combination with Peace. Andrew from the headphone show also uses this setup, as it gives you very detailed control and is still easy to use.
What!? Effect on sound is 4/10!?
Totally disagree. If you use tips with narrow bores, it will definitely and noticeably increase bass.
On the contrary, if you use wider bores, it will lessen bass and it will increase treble.
This is so basic and I'm surprised you missed to mention it. I would say 8 or 9 out of 10.
Why do you think most IEMs come with tips with different bore sizes?
I have tried at least a couple dozen tips and used all of them for dozens of hours AND I measured them, which you can see in any of my tip reviews.
And based on that, the difference is absolutely not an "8 or 9 out of 10". Refer for instance to my review czcams.com/video/jNlyIkQvMBE/video.html and see for yourself. This is nowhere near changing the sound of the IEM significantly.
Subjectively, however, you can very much perceive a change in sound and In my review of i.e. the Final E tips, I also said that I do hear a perceived improvement in bass impact, even though my graphs do not show a change in the bass at all. I speculated that this is due to a reduction in the treble, which again is very IEM dependent not absolutely not every IEM will see a similar reduction in the treble.
However, you are right that my video is a bit rough as I did not have my IEC711 coupler at that point. I will make a revised version in which I will take the difference between subjective VS objective sound shaping into account, as I already do in all of my tip reviews.
@@don_spektor another example how graph doesn't show everything. It's a common knowledge how tips can change the quality of sound.
It's not about seeing the graph, it's about listening to sound.
@@koningklootzak7788 And that's why I have two chapters in my tip reviews: subjective and objective. Because those are two different things. Nevertheless, the overall effect, as long as you have a good seal, of the tips is not significant enough to outweigh the comfort you get in any way or to change the overall signature in any meaningful way.
@@don_spektor that's also not true. Size of bore change the sound too. Narrower bore produce more bass, wider bore will let you hear the sound closer to you and it could also create harsh treble too. I think you need to let go of your prejudice and reevaluate your ideas on tips, so that you could get to higher stage as an audiophile.
@@koningklootzak7788
Have you even bothered looking into the review I shared? I clearly distinguish between the objective and subjective and by measuring, I can literally proof that bass is not affected by the bore size. What however is, is the treble and that can affect the way we perceive the bass. There are other reasons why we might perceive a change like i.e. more air volume being pushed through smaller bores, but I also do talk about that in my tip reviews... Which you could have known, if you would have bothered looking it up ;-)
And if you want to proof my theories wrong, feel free to do so: where are your measurements, proofing your point? Or better, a peer-reviewed paper regarding the subject.
PS: You do realise, I never described myself as "audiophile" right ;-)? Hence, your attempt in insulting me are not only in vain, but only made it easier for me to disprove your statements. Furthermore, I could throw back your insults at you, because you made that so easy, but I won't. Because in science, you do not insult other people. You discuss standpoints and evaluate theories by means of quantification and psychological evaluation (see i.e. Harman target). If you do not care about the science, that's ok. Buy your "audiophile cables" (especially the digital ones!) and the other voodo. It's your choice. But please do not try to insult others, that's rude and not shall not be part of this channel.