What’s the difference between Psychologists & Psychiatrists?
Vložit
- čas přidán 5. 09. 2024
- We are a team!
If this video resonated with you, please share it with a friend. And if you enjoy content focused on advocating for healthcare workers & mental health, SUBSCRIBE for more #mentalhealth #doctor #medschool #shorts videos / jakegoodmanmd
About Me:
Name: Jake Goodman
Degree: MD, MBA, PGY1 Psychiatry Resident
Instagram: / jakegoodmanmd
TikTok: / jakegoodmanmd. .
DISCLAIMERS:
- Opinions expressed are solely my own and do not express the views or opinions of my employer.
- My content is for educational and marketing purposes and should not be used in place of therapy or treatment
And this earned you a sub. I'm working toward a psychology degree and so many people don't get this. Neat!!
I was going to comment something like yours😌
Hi I am in grade 10, what degree are you gonna be studying. I really want to collect information on psychology.
Looking forward to working along side you. Grateful for the sub :)
@@JakeGoodmanMD omg Ur such an inspiration. Motivates me to study thx.
@@harshinivaidyanathan6938 I’m not sure if the educational system in your country is similar to that in mine. But I have a bachelor degree in Psychology and a postgraduate diploma in Primary Education (English Language). And now I’m in a master program of educational psychology.
Hope it helps
I have a psychologist and a psychiatrist, and I have to explain that they're separate people quite a bit.
Can you pls tell the difference.
@@harshinivaidyanathan6938 It's explained in the video. /nm
@@Skwishy121 I just wanted to know for countries like India
@@harshinivaidyanathan6938 Ah, okay. I hope my comment didn't come off rude, by the way. I just wanted to help.
@@Skwishy121 It's all good mate. Thx.
You clear it very well...i m clinical psychologist n am tired of telling people am not a doctor
How's your career
@@akashthenics9297 its pretty interesting and i learn new things every day
did you get a PhD/PsyD?
@@nandephiri4113 MS in Clinical Psychology..its 18 years education
@@iqramughal7038 ah I see, I've been looking into clinical psychology and the route I'd need to take to get there, most likely bachelors, masters and maybe PhD in clinical psychology
Currently taking my masters to become a psychologist ❤️
You're not a Psychologist until you've earned a Doctorate in Psychology and have become licensed as a Psychologist in your state. Unless you live outside the U.S. in which case the title of Psychologist may be earned in a different way there...
@@TheChallenger1000 In my nation, after graduating from a three-year master's program, we must take the board exam to become licensed psychologists and then specialize (or take a doctorate that has a major in specialization)
@@TheChallenger1000Why do all you people assume that we all come from America? In Canada, for example, you can practice as a psychologist or a therapist with a masters degree depending on the province.
@@DuffTorres_93KG Did you actually read the _entire_ post, PARTICULARLY THE LAST SENTENCE? Give that a go and try again.
@@TheChallenger1000I did, but I still wanted to comment haha
Psychology is something brightens my smile 😇
I really prefer to go to a therapy with a psychologist. The psychiatrist are very much medical influenced and prescribe things right away although for certain things like anxiety isn’t really necessary and advantageous for overcoming it long term.
Psychiatrists don't really do psychotherapy anymore thanks to private insurance companies pushing them into doing medication management or inpatient care only.
It's a mess if you are an outpatient with a tricky or complex diagnosis. Good luck getting your psychiatrist and psychotherapist to coordinate care adequately
Its so sad..just remember as I used to be meds student:
"gists"=getting u to thinking clearly and back to happy thinking
"trists"=your brain is lacking a chemical or 2 to think clearly just a little boost.
We are all made different so either path works.
Just a few helpful thoughts;
1. Don't sweat the small stuff. Its all small stuff.
2. Don't look back. Can't fix. Never can. Just learn from the experience.
3. Forgive fully.
4. Our parents were born at a different time in history. Could we do better than them then? How did they grow up. What did they see at 2, 3, 4 years old? If abused do i think they transfer the negative on to you? Did someone break their little hearts?
5. Love always. Never hate.
6. Strong hearts survive. No one can hurt u deeply unless u let them. Don't.
7. You will always matter.
The better ones don’t take insurance so will spend time actually speaking to you.
@@videorocketzmillar007milla5 Gold 💛
So true
You need a Medical Psychologist, someone who prescribes and also provides psychotherapy. Only available in five states though.
I’ve only encountered one amazing like seriously amazing psychiatrist who did both. Even helped me career plan to boost my self esteem. God I miss him.
I’m currently studying psychology first semester and I’m unsure if I will find a good paying job what do you work in and how much do you get paid ?
@@Yerrskiiii2121 Do computer science for an undergrad degree and then do a grad degree in MD if you like the thought of being a doctor
Therapy from my power duo has truly changed my life ❤️🔥✨
Psychology also has applications outside the clinic. Such as marketing (product use experience, like making toys for kids) and workplace (industrial/organizational).
Though just to clarify, the psychology PhDs in some of these industry positions often do not have PhDs in clinical psychology. They have PhDs in a non-clinical discipline like social, cogntive, organizational etc. - A cognitive psychology PhD that knows nothing about mental illness.
After 5 major stomach surgeries to repair my esophagus, upper stomach blockage due to hiatus hernias I have so much respect for all Dr's the entire team caring for me , social workers nurses almost died in 2015 . Thank you for all you do
Clinical psychologists & clinical neuropsychologists are able to prescribe psychotropic medications in 6 states (i.e., Louisiana, New Mexico, Illinois, Idaho, Iowa, & Colorado), plus the U.S. territory of Guam, the Department of Defense (DoD), the Indian Health Service (IHS), & the Public Health Service (USPHS). This has been the case since the early-mid 90s.
Furthermore, clinical psychologists do more than just psychotherapy. They also perform psychological assessments, personality assessments, & intelligence testing, which are ALL unique only to this field. They also conduct a lot of research within psychological science.
Love this I explained this to my brother as I am studying psychology /criminal Justice at the moment. More so interested in psychology as I have literally been a therapist for my inner circle of people for YEARS lol.
Love how you’re so pro mental health care. The stigma around it that has plagued America is slowly losing its grip, and people with platforms promoting its importance is always a great thing to see.
Physiciatry or psychology are some options for a future career but I'm so indecisive lol
Just do anything - the world needs you. Can you start as a psychologist and work towards being a Psychiatrist!
Wildly different experiences 😂. Choose wisely, I’m on my 9th year of learning in med school
@@Gogofam123 hi, I'm only in 10th grade currently (16 yrs) and I'm quite confused whether i should go for psychology or psychiatry? (in the future ofc lol)
which career is better? and also which one of the two is more likely to make more money? (that's one of the most imp aspect for me since i want to be financially independent and not rely on my family much)
thank you!
@@seungcheology a psychiatrist makes more money. I do know that part. Psychiatrist will be the one to mostly prescribe medication, a psychologist is more therapy based.
@@Jenice-TheHiddenGem ohkk..thank you :)
Never once have I met a psychiatrist who cares about therapy 😂 they give you meds and a diagnosis based on very cookie cutter assessments. Coordinating with a psych happens MAYBE, and if you're big rich.
Day to day, psychs and psychiatrist's barely talk, and you're diagnosed based on the vague assessment of the psychiatrist, not the hours of work the psychologist does.
Agreed
I had a psychiatrist I seen and a psych nurse, both tried natural therapies and assessed treatments to make sure what was right if they needed to prescribe, they stated they preferred natural therapies first, clearly it’s different worldwide and individually
who earns more?
THIS. AMEN, let's hear it for psychologists and social workers!!!!! 👏👏👏👏♥️🫶💯
@@user-zg5kq3mr2epsychiatrist
Psychiatrists * can prescribe* --> *only prescribes* lol
By the way this is in America for the qualifications I know in different countries like for Australia psychologists don’t prescribe meds and don’t need such a high qualification like a PHD all that is needed in Australia is a Masters
In my undergrad degree, one of my professors kindly explained the difference when I spoke about my med school hesitations. He is a retired psychiatrist and spoke about how networking works with local psychologists and psychiatrists and his issues with most insurances he worked with.
I’d add that psychologists (phd’s and psyd’s) are also trained in assessment, like neuropsych assessment after a TBI, personality assessment, memory assessment for aging/dementia
I WISH my psychiatrist provided therapy.
Same. I know some do and some don't but I had a psychiatrist who did both and I was insanely comfortable with her. I know go between and neither are on the same page =D
some do im pretty sure
I wish my psychologist provided me meds.
@@user-mg5th5zv5syou should ask to speak with a psychiatrist because they can give you meds
I was literally just thinking about that just randomly cuz I never knew the difference. Thank you!
Thank you so much for showing us aspiring (and already established) psychologists some love!
Can you please do a video like this on physiotherapists?
Cool idea
*I absolutely adore your videos and could watch them all day.*
Psychologists can get a prescription license in Louisiana. Psychiatrists do not provide therapy, they send you to a psychologist.
@Heather Disagree w/ your “psychiatrists do not provide therapy, they send you to a psychologist.” Maybe in Louisiana that’s the case. In Chicago & maybe elsewhere in the US, one can find a psychiatrist who not only can prescribe appropriate medication(s) but who is trained and adept at “talk” therapy. It might take research on patients’ part to find such a clinician but know that psychiatrists aren’t all pill pushers [NOT that you said or implied that].
Disagree. If they are just providing you with meds without actually talking to you, then stop seeing them. I talked to my doctor every time I saw them. I also had to see a psychologist, more often than I saw my Dr, but they both should talk to you. The therapist/psychologist just may get more in depth. Writes in your chart, which the psychiatrist (Dr) should discuss with you during your visit.
When I was studying medicine, once I asked a psychiatrist what the psychologist's job was, and she only told me that they were just like priests... How arrogant are some (many) doctors.
They’ll also happily medicate developing children, rather than focus on psychotherapy first!
I have mixed feeling still about everything but one thing I knew is I couldn’t live like this any longer! I’ve been stuck in a major depressive episode for about a year now, yesterday was the first time as an adult that I have talked to a physiatrist, I was diagnosed with ptsd due to childhood trauma, I was also diagnosed with major depressive episodes, generalized anxiety/social anxiety is really bad.
And borderline personality disorder.
So I’m starting a couple meds and seeing a physcotherapist (talk therapy) because I can’t talk about the trauma i went through without breaking down and not being able to speak. I also don’t know where I would start if I did or if I can even say it out loud 😩
I’m hoping I’ll only get better from here and I can start enjoying my life with my little family
best of luck. i hope you find healing and happiness
Stay strong girl 😥
I think it’s important to highlight that there’s a range of psychology disciplines that would typically fall within being a psychologist. In the UK, clinical psychology is the predominant area in mental health, followed by forensics psychologists and counselling psychologists. In the UK the clinical psychology route is to do a DClinPsy. Psychology focus on formulations and psychiatry tend to focus on diagnoses within a medical model.
I definitely prefer a psychologist because I don't like medications pushed down my throat, cognitive therapy all the way baby!
Lol Psychiatrists can do cognitive therapy too lmao…
But sometimes u need the combination
Dude...that's not hoe it works. Psychologists will send you to a psychiatrist if you need medication and they think it's the better thing to do. Man you're dense
@@Carl24559 CBT
Love my OCD disorder medication Tharpy for my OCD disorder was a complete failure
I’m still a young adult but im really looking to be a psychologist when I grow up..it really took my attention. And thank you for the video!🤍
This is why I see both of them :) hopefully I’m going to start improving soon
That's our daughter. PHD in psychology. 😁💯❤️
Yeah. I usually explain it as psychiatrists provide treatment and psychologists research what the best treatment would be. So psychiatrists are doctors and psychologists are researchers, broadly speaking. There is a ton of overlap and both have the skills to do eachothers' jobs.
Yes and no. Psychologists are not just researching which treatment is best. They act as case managers, social workers, teachers, etc and that’s all in addition to doing therapy which is more than just talking to someone. Psychiatrists, while generally capable of doing therapy, tend to stick to medication during their appointments and use monthly or quarterly sessions to monitor symptoms. They often don’t get as much therapy training. Both are critical though
Great explanation.
You're video made it seem like there was. not much difference but there's a lot. Psychiatrists can never come close to providing the therapy that psychologists do.
I don't know about Psychiatry, but in Psychology you also have loads of different subsections/categories which you can specialise in. I'm currently doing my BA in Psychology focusing in Social Psychology which has nothing to do with Clinical Psychology which is usually what you would need if you wanted to be a Psychotherapist. Then there is Economic/Forensic/Neuro-Psychology etc. :)
Social Psychology. What a crapload!
@@proudblack9453 I'm not really sure what prompted the negative response to my comment, but Social Psych is a hugely interesting (to me) and scientifically valid field. My guess is you're not actually interested in learning about it so I won't bother explaining. I am genuinely sorry though that you felt the need to leave such a negative comment, which seems to be a recurring pattern given your comments on other videos.
@@j.s.7419 that’s going to be a busy and stressful field for you. I wish you luck and hope you have a long and successful career. If I can give you one piece of advice that you will fail a few times to do by try to only make it a few. Don’t take it home with you. Try to make home time home time. Good luck😍
@@j.s.7419Don’t worry about those idiots. Pursue psychology, and enjoy it.
Hy can I help me , I don't want to go for PhD.. so Is a PhD degree obligatory to get a job in psychology? ( Counseling/ School)
Thank you! I never understood the difference
Most psychiatrists spend barely 5 minutes talking to the patient. They just take a guess at what medications they should prescribe.
I faced that too 😭 and now I realise I needed a Psychologist and not a Psychiatrist given the fact that my parents don't understand mental issues and just want me to choose my life's carrer in one day😫
@@saurabhjarodia335Yupp can feel u
How u doing now?
Studying applied psychology right now and it's amazing can't wait to do my masters 😍❤️❤️
Thank you for clarifying this! I want to be a phycologist and alot of people get really confused
Please put that profile pic in your future office next to your certificate pls.
@@mkxv1 I will LMAO
Such a great team. I’ve been through 14 psychologists (money hungry bastards) with ZERO impact on my life and not a single one thought that maybe I need to a see psychiatrist? Still can’t get there…
We’re money hungry bastards? Tell that to psychiatrists 😂. We give a shit enough to provide psychotherapy, rather than just pump you full of drugs.
Thank you for the info. Thank you.
Former med student here... just remember "gists" = study of healthy mind to get u back to happy thinking. "trists" = you need a little more help medically as your brain needs meds as its lacking a chemical or two to help u think straight. We are made all different so either path works ... ✌ ☮
Awesome so excited for my journey!
Wow, so cute,. I love your smile.. Thank you for choosing to save life's..
So psychiatrists make 2-3x as much to push pills?
Yes that they do.
The trade off is psychiatrists have to destroy people’s lives with dangerous, addictive drugs, ultimatley hurting those who they were supposed to help. But as long as the big pharma makes money, that’s all that matters
Yeah it's disgusting!!! The people who are actually really helping people and have empathy should make more.
Oh you sweet summer child
I worked in mental health and social services for 20 years as a therapist socializing in abuse (all sides of it). And also have had mental health issues my entire remembered life, and my MH treatment experience is double that of my career.
You REALLY NEED to make it clear that most psychiatrists only do therapy early in their career before they get jaded or if their clients are rich. The amount of teamwork they get to do depends on the setting. In the US, state, county, and even city/town/village/borough all play a part in how many resources there are. Is there a hospital with psychiatric services in the area? Private or public? Clinic or self pay? Plus any potential specialities, and none of that even touches personality types, burn out, or the fact that most people that work in mental health end up with their own major mental health issues from working in a profession so underfunded and stigmatized, helping people with some of the most difficult and hard to treat problems.
I prefer nurse practitioners usually because where I live the psychiatrists are all men, who are extremely misogynistic, bigoted, rude, and dismissive. But when I lived in the city I adored my psychiatrist. In my professional life... I've never worked with a good psychiatrist. They were all objectively awful and wildly unethical.
It's good to the know difference between psychiatrist and psychologist, but there are also counselors, case managers, nurses, peer specialists, that can provide services in a variety of settings, including a client's home.
I worked with 2 counties as a CPS case worker, 1 CTT, 2 ACT teams (Acute Community Treatment (aka in the community), 3 group homes, an LTSR, 2 day programs, a children's psychiatric hospital, and a state hospital. I only switched positions 3 times in 20 years. How? Because working in CTT, ACT teams, and CPS, meant I did a lot of driving and saw my clients wherever they were.
All of this is to simply to remind people that there is more to mental health and social services and these shorts and some CZcams videos are great to learn the basics but there is ALWAYS more to learn.
I'm retired and dying and still learning. Never stop if you care about others
THANK YOU! Your comment was 100% accurate and so inspiring because I'm that same type of person and want to go into the mental health field. THANK YOU for everything you did. ❤
Unhelpful comment
@@MissThomandra how?
Can they both diagnose?
Psychiatrists are trained as medical doctors - psychologists are not. Big difference. Also a lot of psychiatrists don’t practice cognitive behavioral therapy or are trained in it.
As was explained to me. Its more about helping ppl get through things vs those with actual mental disorders.
As a psychologist All my training is for mental illness, everyone in the DSM. My job is to diagnose as well as provide therapy and tools to live a life that is healthy and safe for the patient and everyone around them. It’s not just helping people get through things although that happens as a result of working with patients.
Well said Dr Jake 👍👍👍👍
Psychiatrists are criminals and psychologists might actually help you. That’s the difference.
That's the dumbest take I've ever heard on this topic...
You're one of those mfs who had like ONE bad experience with doctors and now thinks they're all the same. You dense pos
@@leobe2104 you are the dumb mf who likes to assume things about everyone thinking you know better then those who have more experiences then you.
@@leobe2104 and btw the dense pos is you 🫵🏼
So true, unfortunately I know 1st hand. A psychiatrist put me on many different drugs when I was a kid, which did me NO good, and caused me great harm. They are glorified drug pushers
I love Dr J
Explain to me the proper approach when one is terrified of going to ask for any kind of help? What do you do when you have been the only thing for 20 plus years that the people around you have stood on?
Well what do you mean by terrified? You know you're never a burden to ask for help, and when you do ask for help, it does not mean you have bad intentions for others or yourself but you have good intentions of needing support and I'm sure the right people will give it you-finding the right people is another matter but I hope you have some. And there is no correct way to ask as long as you are respectful of yourself and the person you are asking, whether you want to ask loudly/quietly/privately-if u feel comfortable to think about asking, then just go for it! You got this- you're doing it for yourself. I'm not sure bu the last sentence, as in people are codependent/dependednt on you?
Never be afraid to ask for help and lean on others for a bit. 💖💖
You Forgot the PMHNP's!
We can have a doctorate and prescribe. But most of us have a masters.
Also, we can have a DNP or PhD doctorate.
For example, I new Mexico, a PsyD can prescribe after extensive training.
We need meds. We need meds. I'm so sick of feeling like I do everyday and Ill never be able to afford treatment or all the reassessment for stuff I've already been diagnosed with since I was a kid
Wait, so there's a country where psychologist can prescribe med?
Yes In America
@@rahmanabasit 🤦♂️You didn't even watch the video I assume as its stated in Grey with white writing what the Unites States standard is.
@@arcticseadog52Why are you speaking like that to him? He literally said nothing wrong. All he said was "Yes In America" and he's correct. 5 states in America allow Psychologists to prescribe medications.
You really need to check your manners.
Can an internal medicine doctor work as a psychologist too? Like by doing masters and further studies so that he has that as a 2nd job? I really wanna do both helping people with therapy and psychotherapy but I don’t want to become a psychiatrist
No. To be a Psychologist you must hold a Doctorate in Psychology and become licensed to practice Psychology in your state.
This was my biggest doubt .. Thanks for sharing
his smile literally radiates kindness
psychiatrists can also impose forced hospital say and stop seeing you if you refuse medication, at least in my country
❤this video is helpful for me😃👍
Or the talky doctor and the head med doctor (not to be confused with the pokey doctor)
my ego hates the fact most people assume your not “really a doctor” as a psychiatrist….LIKE WE HAD TO SUFFER TOO MAN 😅
Except in New York state at least I know this because I've asked psychiatrists yes they are medical doctors but they really don't conduct what people would know as therapy sessions. They do work with psychologists and the psychologist might recommend that this particular patient needs to be on some kind of medicine, what the psychiatrist will do is sit down and talk with them ask them questions etc etc and then based off that right a prescription for something but they are not conducting the therapy session as you would think
Don't forget about Psychiatric NPs
I'm a student of psychology
Aaaahhh.. thank you for this. I always get confused over and over again.
Not anymore 😉
Love this
I thought psychiatrists were women and psychologists were men 💀💀
Hhhh
💀💀💀💀
Lmao
The reason why they are both necessary is that the psych is the interjection between body and soul. It's probably the most unreachable and mysterious part, hence the psychiatry being the most challenging field in medicine (on my opinion, based on having met some psychiatrists, and the only one who started healing me was also a psycologist).
A psychiatrists diagnosis also isnt legally binding in terms of IEPs and related things
I never met an MD who does therapy.
Very helpful! Thank you :]
I hope you feel good today
I'm seeing a counselor right now with meds managed by my PCP, but I really think I should see a psychiatrist to explore other options.
Future psych NP here… I’m two semesters into my doctorate program and loving it!
What job are you planning to get ?
@@Yerrskiiii2121 I haven’t narrowed it down for sure, but planning on outpatient substance abuse treatment, or peds outpatient psych, or possibly eating disorders!
@@TaylorTheBurninator how long will it take you to become that ?
Getting my psychology degree to become a psychiatrist
You can’t you need a medical degree to be a psychiatrist
That will only work out if you go to medical school after your Psychology degree is done...
This video is me when someone uneducated on twitter tries to give mental health advice and tells strangers they need a "therapist"
Psychiatrist also seem to be called upon to diagnose things like Autism, I had a referral for what was meant to be a psychiatrist go to a psychologist and then they said it has to go to a psychiatrist as they can’t diagnose… I think people are confused all round lol the business connecting patients to the right help got confused or protocols are psychologists need to assess first
In Germany the doctors don't work together, at least this is my experience. ☹️
In Germany we also have Naturopaths for psychotherapy. And I'm in their team.
In my country one was a counselor you could speak about your issues and if the other one is interested in you it means you have real mental issues and he makes you eat pills like they are snacks, yeah that is the psychiatrist.
Your psychiatrist, just like all doctors, delivered babies in med school during his obstetrics rotation. Decided to go into psychiatry instead of obstetrics. Now doesn't that just freak you out!
Imma be a psychiatrist they make almost double the amount of money yearly than psychologists and money is money
thank you
Oh thing they do have in common is that if I say too much I visit my good old friend named the “insane asylum”
Where the Psych Nurse Practitioners at🎉🎉🎉
They are the BEST! 👏♥️💯
When i grow up im trying to be a psychologist bc i struggle with mental health and i wanna help others idk if the pay is good or not thi
Many, if not most, psychiatrists do not perform therapy, and are not trained to do so.
I need both but have neither
Work as a team my ass. They got me going back and forth playing telephone with each other... I fucking quit both. Unless thats what you meant lol. Scandalous
That was ONE incident. Do you stop going to the doctor after one bad experience too?
Pharmacists have a Doctorate in Pharmacy... and we can't even get a 30 minute lunch 🤦♀️
Because a lot of people don’t quite know what the MD,PHD, and doctorate means. A Doctorate in Pharmacy is not a MD. It sounds like doctor but it’s actually a degree. It’s a 3-4 year program and it’s the same as most memorization heavy degree programs. I just am not a fan when people try to sound like they have the same as MD or PHD which take almost a decade or a decade depending on the situation.
@@starsiaeve4649 I think people can differentiate just fine. A person can get an MD after four years lol… Yeah residency is an additional 4-8 years but still. Pharmacists are still doctors. Just not medical doctors.
@@starsiaeve4649You're not making as much sense as you may think. Both are literally Doctors and both earn Doctorate degrees, just in different fields and with different scopes of practice. MDs do not own the title of "Doctor". That title came long before MDs even existed.
Psychologist salary 100k psychiatrist salary 300k
I am a master's student of psychology.. and i am tired of answering these questions..
I'm just gonna forward this vid next time
He is too cute
One thing to add: psychiatrist treats issues who are a bit more severe but great video!
It’s like an audiologist vs ENT
No way. That's a huge difference. An ENT is a Medical Doctor. An Audiologist is not.
@@TheChallenger1000 A Psychiatrist is also an MD, and a Psychologist is not
@@kaylasmusic Just like an ENT is an MD and an Audiologist is not. But the difference with a Psychologist compared to a Psychiatrist is that both Psychologists and Psychiatrists deal with the mind, and a Psychologist can prescribe medication in 5 states just like a Psychiatrist can.
@@TheChallenger1000 an audiologist deals with ears as well, just like an ENT though so
@@kaylasmusic Just the ears though. Not the nose and throat, and that's a huge difference, so...
Hello, can you tell me re those older people that are helping people who need help with Paranormal issues that can't be explained?
How do we call their job names?