Will the Dwarf Mountain Holds Grudge Pony be OP? | Warhammer The Old World | Square Based
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- čas přidán 30. 06. 2024
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Note: This episode was originally recorded in the hours before the FAQ release. So count it as some additional content for your hobby time!
In this episode Val and Rob discuss the appearance of a fully based Dwarf "Grudge Pony" in the Orc and Goblin Tribes Arcane Journal, as well as Rob's experience running the third Square Based GT in Nottingham!
Links to the podcast only version on all platforms:
squarebasedpodcast.podbean.com/
#warhammer #warhammertheoldworld #warhammerfantasy #warhammercommunity #squarebassed #theoldworld #warhammerpodcast #thehonestwargamer - Hry
As an Australian, I was so offended I almost spilt my beer.
Emphasis on the almost
Like 20 years ago, just in casual play, with family and friends, as a Dwarfs player in 6th/7th... The castle was really your best ( maybe only) option. We just invented Dwarf cavalry, mounted on bears, and vehicles, to give the Dwarfs the option of going more mobile. Someplace I still have my old Bren Gun Carrier model that I adapted to be a mobile artillery carriage and/or APC, that could also charge and do impact hits.
I’m personally of the belief that dwarfs need (or at least could really use) something like a big Hussite war wagon.
Want to rush your slayers into the enemy army? Get them in the war wagon.
Want your gunline to be able to shoot without hitting the backs of the doughty dwarfs placed to protect them? Put them in the wagon.
Want to move your artillery? Oh yeah. Wagon.
It developed because people don’t enjoy playing against gun lines/castles but the Dwarfs really have no other options open. I guess in TOW you can spam Huey Gunships but I bet people don’t like that either.
Get ready for the Dwarves new battlesong "Fortunate Son".
I can understand why they don't give dwarfs cav. Slow movement is their weakness, and that is okay. Shooting used to be the crutch that somewhat mitigated the slow movement, but with the war machine nerf (needed, in my opinion), it does not seem like dwarfs received much in return. I keep hearing people extolling hammerers, but I have not been impressed. Either getting easily avoided, focus fired by magic (outside of spell breaking runes even the anvil is not good protection), and not doing great even with hesitation and confusion, banners, etc. when enemies do decide to engage.
The White dwarf article on the castle effectively defined my existence as a dwarf player back then. I think the article was late 5th edition, and I found it given to me in a pile of old white dwarfs from a family friend when I was getting into whfb. It is such an honestly eye opening thing when you see someone "get" it.
The pony cart was in the 7th edition starter set (Battle for Skull Pass). It never had rules per se but had a scenario IIRC. There’s a rumor around GW will at some point release the 6th, 7th and 8th starter sets (8th is pretty dubious because it is HE vs Skaven).
As for dwarves: they are currently in bad shape comparatively. This is not an infantry edition. They only have infantry (gyros and artillery also but obviously the bulk of your army must be infantry).
Magic, cavalry, and monsters are strong this edition. Dwarves don’t have (good) offensive magic, they actually have BAD defensive magic, no cavalry, no monsters AND their options to counter those kind of units are bad. Runes have so many limitations in a game that removed them for other armies (look at O&G) and are often overcosted or simply do not work (Master rune of immolation).
Dwarves can still shoot pretty well though (Rangers, Irondrakes and Gyros are quite good actually).
That said, dwarves are still the best army around and you should play them. I’am doing it and having fun, despite them not being the most competitive option out there at the moment.
Edit: clarifications
I play against a lot of weird armies. (Most in my group play very thematic lists) but I’ve had good results with them.
You forgot proper chariots. Dwarfs don't have those either. Or monstrous infantry and monstrous cavalry. When most of the army roster consists of different flavours of the same unit (i.e. Dwarf), you are in trouble.
Dwarfs are going to need more than points adjustments. They lack fundamental tools for actually playing this game. By contrast, Empire (which is also awful) can be fixed by point adjustments (their infantry is insanely costed for how bad it is).
@@andrewbakescakes9684Empire infantry can be fixed with points yes. Priests and Witch Hunters need more of a rework, but we can probably work around it.
Dwarves on the other hand need to bring in some wargoat cavalry or golems. Those would help a lot IMO.
The pony cart is also present in the multi part miner kit, you get two in the box
I mean, you could buff up the Dwarf artillery enough to counter monsterous units/leaders and force the enemy to charge the castle (avoiding the stand-off draw) but you’re still faced with the much maligned “beardy gun line” syndrome.
I hope the Dwarf Arcane journal will contain an engineering/exploring/mining focussed Dwarf army with improved shooting. Would be a good fit for the pony and for example the 4 engineers. Keeping my fingers crossed for a made to order of 6th edition Longbeards. Thanks for all your great content!
Thanks for the callback for CCBB 22. Felt like Ricky Bobby being interviewed for the first time.
“What do I do with my hands?”
The rest of us didn't fare much better 😂
Grudge Pony. He's a pony, and he holds a grudge!
Suddenly the re-release of Josef Bugman’s Pony Cart announced in the Dwarf faction Adepticon preview WarCom article makes much more sense than just being a nostalgia piece.
That's a good point!
Pony cart double confirmed!
In the first game I got my buddy to play of The Old World he wanted to play his Tzeentch Demons. He said "Man, Magic really doesn't feel very powerful."
Turn 1 he threw out a pillar of fire and killed a bunch of my stuff when I failed to dispel it on my turn or his. Then, he placed it next to his soulgrinder, who I charged with my duke, pushed back into the pillar of fire, which then burned it to death when it activated again. My duke then failed combat against 10 blue horrors and ran, causing a panic chain through my army and I lost.
Most fun either of us have had in 10+ years of Warhammer.
To be fair, fantasy has been dead for 9 years of that.
Old World is effing awesome
Footslogging ogres might actually be the answer to that vampire counts list. Bulls get impact hits, 4 attacks a piece with ironfists, and have some pretty good choices for buffing banners. Even just a rank of 5 wide is going to put a big hurt of crumbling on some zombies, they might be able to just grind through to the meaty bits behind. And Ironfists on the flanks have enough wounds to accept a charge from Blood Knights, and enough swings with great weapons to return the damage. Playing around with the anti magic totem and a level 4 caster of their own, they could be the heroes we need.
Love the attitude
The level of emotional intelligence Val has is outstanding... And not just for a Wargamer....
I wonder if the pony cart is only there because of the mission on the page before. In the brettonia and tomb kings books those big photos kind match the missions in their books. I hope I’m wrong thogh!
While this could easily be the case.... it's also based and in the battle line. The carts in the scenario are part of an ambush thing.
These podcasts are the best content to do with the old world that I’ve seen, thank you for doing them, and let me know if you’re ever in Vancouver!
Pony-Cart should be a Named Character and should lead an army of angry dwarfs
Chaos Warriors being underwhelming has been a pretty clear thing since day 1. I'm not surprised you're coming to that conclusion, Rob. There are a couple of builds that may work with them, but they're not worth the investment in points compared to the alternatives. Consider using Chosen instead.
Currently, most competitive WoC armies are running Marauder Horsemen, Knights and Chosen Knights, a lord on Steed or Dragon, a level 4 with the infernal puppet, and dragon ogres (sometimes with some chosen on foot, which can do some serious work if you give them a character with Enchanting Aura, the banner of Rage, MoS and halberds). Ogres are a decent pick, if not stellar. Chimeras are also pretty decent, and give WoC tools to keep the enemy busy while the core of the army speeds forward.
As for Dwarfs, they have an uphill battle. Summarizing a longer post I made in the WFB discord a few days back, dwarfs have very few ways to force engagements, they can't choose their own fights due to their low M, and the ruleset makes it so that slow, low I infantry is kind of useless. To make matters worse, their artillery is the worst it's ever been (which was their main tool to force those engagements), and so a pure gunline isn't really good anymore either. They're very well designed, they've been given tools to compensate for how they are, but they still have trouble being effective in a competitive game. They're still a lot of fun, and a beautiful army, so I'd 100% recommend them to people, but... They're not in a good place from a competitive standpoint, no.
You make my day every time with your videos guys and I love our discord community
15:44 I didn't realize it was you at the time! I even made it into your video, haha. Also, Danny is a champ!
Hell yeah these videos really hype me up! Thanks again rob and val
Oh my god. The kapachapachow and the link appears 😂
Ultimately this game is not meant for competitive play for reasons that you have certain factions like Dwarfs that will always struggle with "big wins" and tournament winners find ways to get these perfect scores. You'll always be in this limbo as a TO where you can't balance a tournament structure properly by going win-loss-draw points style vs aggregate points with differentials.
I love this idea of talking to your opponent. I only play with friends.
And I always discuss with the skaven players that I have a gauntlet of the duel, that there is some grey area.
And I would like them to determine if their character is dodging out before melee phase starts.
Becuase I see it as I can challenge at start of melee phase and you can deny my challenge.
They seem so far to be happy to have avoided a fight, and they have plenty of time before then to make the decision.
With regards to Chaos Ogres, I've also been loving them in my Beastmen! As a cheap 120 point unit, my Slaangors can now be Slaaanesh marked Great Weapons, and I'm looking forward to eventually buying some of the nurgle blight kings or whatever bs theyr'e called to be Nurgle-marked Chaos Ogres.
Another excellent chat , cheers Gents 👏
Where can we find lists for the event? I'm new to Old World and trying to figure out how to run my Beastmen army.
More content please!!! You guys rock.
Insatiable!
awesome video guys! I went over to watch andy2d6 and loved it.. Lol'd through the bat rep which is well done.
I joined the your patreon a few days ago but still cant access the discord. How should i make that happen?
Don't hurt me like that with the skaven rumors. Skaven killed jty's family and we're being punished.
Ha that's damn close to the lists I've been posting in the patron for Vampires for a long old while!! Very strong Vampire list if you can manage it well.
A really clear thing with that army is its hard to get points off, but isn't going to grab points quickly. So I'm not surprised it had that draw, where neither player could capitalise. That is exactly the one draw back of that army, when playing against a very strong opponent you'll hit a stalemate, they know they can't break your army and will get ground down, but you can't get the points off them either.. Its absolutely the big flaw that style list has.. however its the best 2k list I've found for vampires thus far.
You can give the banshees reserve move to pop up between the zombies to attack and then back again.. with move 8 due to the bubble that's pretty damn fast.. the Mortis engines scream is on a large target and can shoot over things and all screams come with a standard -2 modifier, so you are doing -5 leadership which is brutal.. x4.
My lists have been using Grave Guard in place of bloodknights. I've also been playing with double corpse cart (more spells, more buffs that stack). I've been running a level 2 and a level 4 with lots Some wights and a bsb so you have 3-5 crumble resistance. Might experiment with some blood knights going forwards.
I've got 15 silly looking ogres (looks like they can take the Red Raggity Banner) ready to rock out with my stone trolls! Currently I'm trying to kiss a lot of swamp toads to find a troll princess for my army...
I’ve run into a similar situation of having to play my Wood Elves defensively and I don’t quite like it…doesn’t feel right but wins me games.
Theory: us Brets looks calm because Gdubs haven't unleashed The Toes.
Super excited to see you guys getting out and doing battle reports!
Give us The Toes you cowards.
It's "Le toés", you absolute PEASANT! :P
@@Tulkash01 I have lost the blessing of Ze Lady T.T
You guys rock, seriously.
I hope the Skaven comes back and dark elves, high elves, vampire count, Ogree, amazon warriors, fimirs, chaos dearves, dogs of war.
Gimme all of them and more I say!
Hi there, I’m hoping to play the event your running in June… would you be ok with me being a complete noob to old world lol we are a heresy channel but I just love old world, and playing an event seems the best place to learn!
9:22 third tour 🤣🤣👌❤️
I can confirm that not all pony’s pulling mine carts come equipped with a weapon. My version from Skull Pass is distinctly lacking in the laser cannon department
Agreed. I have two and neither have any sort of gun or blasty-type mechanism.
Came to find out that little darling is specifically the one from the plastic miner kit
I think what happened with the Draw-game is fine. I think a lot of people commenting about it are commenting about it from a spectator perspective rather than a player/TO perspective. Mega-High-Level strategic play is probably NOT going to be "4000 point sized dead piles".
I know people want dwarfs to march out and meet them in the middle, but even corner camping dwarf lists get beaten pretty easily, and it just makes things that much easier when you waddle out. You either end up blocking your own shooting or spread out and get flanked. I think there may be three battle reports I have seen dwarfs win. I am a little dubious about the journal helping because it had to have been written before they had any clue that dwarfs might need a little boost (pun intended) so I am guessing it will not be any sort of power shift for dwarfs unless it is by accident. Slayer armies, for example, always seem to be fun and thematic but not competitive.
" Waddle out" made me lol
Competitive Magic: the Gathering has long had a clearly defined "intentional draw" because it comes up quite often in their ~16 round tournaments. It's not an ideal scenario, but the tournament structure and scoring system means that it's unavoidable. There's the famous quote from one of the designers of Civilisation; "Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game." - the game here being the whole tournament. It can be anticlimactic for players and spectators, but it _is_ a choice by the players, and I don't think it needs to be viewed as something to fix. Right behind you here, Rob.
Great feedback m8
I want to play a dwarf castle and sit in the corner deffensively. "This is my Mountain". Dwarves are not conquerors. If my opponent doesn't want to engage, I'll drop a few barrels (or build them as unit fillers) next to my dwarfs as they start to drink peacefully.
This is beautiful.
google has been quite annoying to find Old world stuff, everything keeps popping up as WHFB
I love the Orc and Goblin arcane journal. My only fear is that I'll build a big Troll Horde army and then meet a dwarf player who just counters me massively with tons of flame rune combos on artillery etc! For reasons like that, and because I want an army with snotlings, I guess I'll still with the regular orc grand army. But I may make use of the cool orc shaman from the arcane journal, and maybe the magic items.
Don't forget the troll princess! Also even with flaming cannons they're killing maybe a couple trolls a turn. I wouldn't be too worried : )
@@SquareBasedOldWorld Princess XD. That Troll Hag model is the best model I've seen in ages too. May have to stump up for it. Can't see anyone making a better proxy.
What sucks is I still can’t get the damn O&G journal in Australia….Arrrrgh! 😊
The grudge pony definitely did not have a weapon on it.
So if the Mortis Engine bubbles stack as is, does that mean they roll 4 times on the miscast table?...
hah. Would depend on the wording around the double miscast.
Respect the "no BSB". Not all armies need it. They are more useful as +combat res than for rerolls, or for expensive magic banner buffs.
I like a combat based Thane BSB with a non-magic banner. Keep the magic banners in the units.
@@knedoshane - Sure, but only the BSB can take Grungni or Red Beard. Not sure Red Beard is useful (but could become useful with interactions in the forthcoming Arcane Journal), while Grungni can up the lifespan of Hammerers. Whether that's worth it is debatable, but it's the only way to run the banner.
Definitely, they are excellent combat resolution batteries.
Can always use the BSB for another bammer with rune of battle for more combat res@@andrewbakescakes9684
@@CZcamsuser6294 - I guess, with poor movement, Dwarfs cannot strategically apply these bonuses as easily as other factions.
My theory on the BSB is the new Panic rules are much less punishing, I don't really care that much if a unit dies and my other unit FBIG within 8 inches.
As a suggestion for drawn games hoe about rewarding units in opponents half of the board?
Played my first event yesterday. Lost the final. We had soooo many rules questions... and 0 conflict. How? By talking through things *before* we did them. No 'gotcha!' things, just trying to play a really finnicky (and poorly proofread!) ruleset as well as we could.
Side note: data from 1 day events is absolutely part of the picture, especially for things like army win rates! Justice for one day events!
I think the army building right now is very weak compared to what we will see in a year or two. It will be super interesting how the meta will evolve. I suspect it will move towards heavy mobile armies like it was in 6th, 7th and 8th ed. Corner armies will be figured out, and then go on to get crushed by the best list, and then evolve into something slightly different. Highly recommend looking at the top scoring armies from the ETC 2014. 2015. Lizardmen (poland), dwarfs (danish), and vampires (malta) also look into the general strategy for Darkelves then. Heavy on mobile fighting characters backed shooting.
Honestly there are so many awesome models of dwarves mounted on animals o just home brewed some ram and bear cav rules for (based on highland miniatures) our dwarf player so the game is different instead of never ending charge my castle
I can't wait to see what Highland Miniatures comes up with for their version of a Dwarf cart!
on the pony , is a drill on a tripod.
But like A DANGEROUS ONE
Lets go !
A mission pack should reward defensive for some missions and offensive for others.
R u still only in the 1999+1 camp or we just moved on to 2k?
As a tau player can confirm am a weird little freak
More square more basage
PONY METAAAAAAAAA
Saddle up and ride like you're dancing at a wedding
i am going to potition Val to NEVER give up orcs and goblins!!! lol I have been collecting greenskins since 95. they are my go to in every warhammer. old world/ fantaasy. aos, and 40k lol keep up the great videos guys! :)😊
I HAVE SO MANY ARMIES. But yes. A nomad life for me for a little while at least
About scoring: a game with maximum 200 VP should be a draw. Each player gets awarded 10pts.
A game with a 201 to 500 VP differential should be a minor victory (and a minor loss obviously). The winning player gets 15pts and the loser gets 5pts.
A game with a 501 or more VP differential should be a “massacre”. The winning player gets 20 pts and the loser gets zero.
This isn’t the little cart from Skull Pass, is it?
That doesn’t have the thing on top of the pony
Not quite. Its the Cart that comes with the Miners kit.
Very very similar though. Only a few differences in the sculpts
Did Sean from Ireland bring his sheep 🐑?
In 6th ed (or maybe 7th) you needed a difference of 300 VP to earn a victory, otherwise the game was a draw.
I really doubt that the arcane journal will give us (weird little freak dwarf players) any other ways to play other than "sit in the corner and shoot", slayers are great thematically, but suck ass on the table, and all other units in the dwarf roster are defensive powerhouses, not offensive ones. Personally I'm kinda disappointed in my army atm, I jumped in at the deep end and printed a whole 2500 pts of Highland Miniatures dwarfs, since I liked to models so much. I feel like dwarfs as a faction needs some rework, at least some better shooting if they are not supposed to be offensive with their melee infantry.
Still looking forward to the journal of course, and my army looks gorgeous on the table, so I still have something to be proud of in terms of my Old World experience, but I feel kinda left out of the game aspect because the playstyle is not as engaging as other armies seem to be
Are you having any fun theory crafting making use of Drilled?
@@SquareBasedOldWorld yes, actually! I'm going to play against my friend's high elves next week and I'm already thinking over some shenanigans that I can make with that new clarification. I'm pretty exited to try it out, since drilled is so readily available for dwarf units. It can possibly somewhat mitigate M3, form in a marching column, than declare charge, redress and actually get out of the corner with that charge move.
@@TheShweeble Marching column + anvil of Doom conveyance + drilled and march.
15" move up to get right in the opponents face and still be in a fighting formation.
Combine that with Rune of hesitation and Rune of confusion.
THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT. - Val
What is a full tilt table? Am i stopid?
Was a fun little jousting mini game in WD many years ago.
If you go to the warhammer community old world downloads page and scroll down there’s a pdf copy there.
@@SquareBasedOldWorld thenks
I don’t think I saved that wagon at all which sucks ! Yeah though dwarves excel in an infantry heavy world , they struggle when magic monsters and cavalry are king like now. It feels bad a bit.
I'm hopeful the arcane journal spices them up a bit!
6:12 it is a drill on a tripod from the same plastic miners set you absolute buckets 🤣😂
Being called a bucket is easily the best insult I've seen on here yet
@@SquareBasedOldWorld i absolutely adore both of you making wild assumptions of a fragments of texts and photos. So those are buckets of affection for the game and creativity ;) Keep up the great work
If they are about to say skaven are gonna destroy AoS, just like in WHFB, I predicted this. I am the prophet.
Profit?
Lol, sorry, ment to type prophet not profit. Not making money playing warhammer 😅
But it turns out they didn't. But im sticking to my predictions. AoS will have its end times.
ROB AND VAL LOOKIN' TOIGHT
Me: "Hmm, maybe I should check out competitive play again. I mean, it can't be as horrible as I remember, especially Old World, nobody would take it seriously enough to be a sweaty try-hard about it, right?"
*Watches video*
"Nope, nope, nope. Oh god, it's so much worse."
Ok I'll take the bait - what is it that was so horrible? And what makes it so much worse now?
@@SquareBasedOldWorld 38:44 I just listened to a discussion of 2 players going an entire match without engaging each other... and it's being justified. That's the kind of stuff only happens in competitive events and when you're 12. When winning the game is so much more important than actually PLAYING the game, you have to start asking how we got to that point.
I wanted to play WHFB Dwarves when I was a kid, but never had the money or maturity. Now, I can and I want to see an Engineering army from the Dwarf arcane journal, because I want to play a static castled up gunline. I will stay in my corner.
Hopefully the pony is op because man is it a struggle to play dwarves in their current iteration. My beastmen feel significantly stronger and they're not exactly rampaging through the competitive scene either
Age of Sigmar? Never heard of her.
On the subject of community balancing: A tournament in Stockholm soon has house ruled that you are not allowed to use stacking saves. I.e you are not allowed to use armor + ward + regen saves on the same wound. I think that's a nice example of how NOT to do it, for a number of reasons!
Is the tournament ran by people who've only played 40k if they think taking consecutive saves is such a big deal lol, what a strange thing to take issue with
@@snubbull7309 One can only guess what goes on in the mind of people of Stockholm... My guess is they're scared of the spooky dragon meta but 🤷
Yeah, pretty ridiculous unless they cut corners to fit a 2k game in an one hour timeframe xD
I am in favour of waiting to see what happens after they try their hand at balancing things
The two guys that ended in a draw just sounded like damn good players. If this is a situation that the community OF PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY PARTICIPATE IN THESE EVENTS dont want to see happen then it's purely on the format to change. Otherwise, let it rock. They were playing to win but not willing to sacrifice their standings at the tournament for it. That's just smart tactical AND strategic play.
PS: The Vampire Counts list is super sick but I would bet an L4 chaos wizard with a puppet and anything on similar armies would help combat that heavily.
PPS: Oh, yup.
Not gonna lie the description of posturing armies as fun kinda puts me off. If the best move is to not play the game there is a huge problem, probably with the missions. I was a Fantasy tournament guy for a decade. Old World doesn't hold up for me. Hope AOS can scratch the itch