Shogun (2024) Episode 8 Review
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- čas přidán 8. 04. 2024
- Episode 8 of Shogun, titled "Abyss of Life" sees Toranaga return to Edo as the council await his formal surrender. Yet he may just have another trick up his sleeve.
My review of episodes 1 and 2: • Shogun (2024) Episodes...
My review of episode 3: • Shogun (2024) Episode ...
My review of Episode 4: • Shogun (2024) Episode ...
My review of Episode 5: • Shogun (2024) Episode ...
My review of Episode 6: • Shogun (2024) Episode ...
My review of Episode 7: • Shogun (2024) Episode ...
Interview with the Historical Advisor for Shogun: • Shogun (2024) Historic...
Check out my review of the 1980 Adaptation and my initial thoughts of the original book it is all based off of!
Review of the 1980 Adaptation: • Shogun (1980) | Samura...
My thoughts on the book: • I Finally Read Shogun ...
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While it's likely that Hiromatsu did what he did of his own volition and to convince the other generals of Toranaga's "surrender", it still runs into two important issues:
1. Hiromatsu is far too important a figure to lose like this right before the real conflict begins.
2. Hiromatsu was already telling others that Toranaga was likely faking it. Thereby nearly foiling the plan to have many of them fall for it later.
There are plenty of creative ideas we can point to as to what was really happening and what the show runners intended but I do believe it all could have been set up better for the story.
There are two circumstances in Ieyasu’s life that things like this happened and both of them came with valid reasons.
1. When Ieyasu ordered his first wife and son to be killed. It’s a “general knowledge” that he did this to save his clan from the wrath of Oda Nobunaga (because Nobunaga suspected those two for rebellion). Albeit monstrous, all of his vassals knew that it’s a necessary step to prevent his clan from becoming like the Azai or the Asakura. This action extracted a heavy toll from Ieyasu but it made his vassals become more loyal to him because Ieyasu was seen as a leader who’s willing to sacrifice his own happiness for his people and Lady Tsukiyama wasn’t that popular among Ieyasu’s men.
2. When Tori Mototada sacrificed himself. It was an agreement that everyone in the Eastern army camp knew what Mototada was gonna do. Mototada’s sacrifice at Fushimi castle was fruitful because even though he lost to Mitsunari, he still dealt a significant blow against the Western army and gave Ieyasu some time to prepare his army. It raised the morale of everyone in the East. Meanwhile, Hiromatsu’s death dealt ZERO blow against the Western army and since nobody else (except for Mariko) knew that this was a plan, they are more likely to rebel against this crazy old man Toranaga who killed off his own loyal top general for no reason. But of course, the plot is gonna make Toranaga win.
The funny part is that Game of Thrones did this scenario better than this show.
When Robb Stark killed off his own general Lord Karstark, it caused the Karstark to desert him which caused nobody to defend him during the subsequent Red Wedding. In fact, the Karstark even sided with the Boltons (who killed Robb and Catelyn) afterward in a battle against Jon Snow too.
The writers have no idea what they're doing, as you pointed out. They write for cheap dramatic tension. Character and motivation take a backseat.
@@nont18411 Or perhaps Hiromatsu genuinely committed Seppuku out of principle and in genuine protest. Hiromatsu would have to be the greatest in-universe actor of all time to "fake" his death or sell a deception by literally dying.
@@TanukiDigital They remind me of certain writers who tried to make "surprises" to "surprise" the viewers and ended up making one of the worst final seasons of any series D&D (GOT)
@@ejoviu4911 I predict that Toranaga might tell his generals later on that Hiromatsu’s seppuku “straighten him up” and make him go forward with the Crimson Sky plan to regain their morales. The show must find a way to make him win. Still, I don’t think this kind of thing is practical in real life though. This event is more likely to make the generals rebel against him.
What an incredible actor that old man is. He has been a favourite of mine from the beginning a powerful presence and even more powerful voice
He voices so many anime characters as well because of his skill.
I don't believe your interpretation of the seppuku scene is correct. Hiromatsu and Toranaga had no pre-established plan. Rather, Hiromatsu caught on that Toranaga was deceiving everyone, and knew that was because he needed to deceive his enemies as well. Toranaga's internal plan here is to have the *protesting generals* commit seppuku to achieve the deception. Hiromatsu's honor compels him to save them by offering himself instead, something Toranaga did not expect or want, but something he cannot prevent without letting the deception fall.
I wondered about that but simply there being an unspoken understanding between them doesn't make enough sense either in my opinion. There needed to be more context either way.
Think you're missing the point; an unspoken understanding Hiromatsu himself only realizes during the meeting - he silences the other generals and speaks directly to Toranaga, knowing he must follow through to sell the notion Toranaga gave up. Look at their facial expressions and Hiromatsu's line "so you DO believe in pointless death". He understands his Lord's plan after that and it clearly becomes friends saying goodbye under mutual understanding and grief
I like this theory better than the notion that Hiromatsu walked in that room knowing he was going cancel his life subscription to further the grand plan.
@@TheShogunateI wondered the same thing. Until I rewatched it and saw Toranaga blink and stare in a different way and something was definitely said between them in that moment, through that exchange. Now I’m sure it was all in the moment. Hiromatsu was unaware at first but died knowing his friend will fight.
That’s exactly how I read the scene as well
Church right next to a redlight district - rofl. Toronaga has good sense of humor
Toronaga is a Bible scholar and efficient city planner-- he knows who needs "saving" and placed them next to the church, ha
As a comment from another video said, now they can sin and seek forgiveness with a single trip!
To be frank, Clavell's novel Shogun would require at minimum two seasons to actually capture in all of it's complexity, and to flesh out his richly developed cast of characters.
but the 80's version explained very well many details of the book that here they simply left to the free interpretation of the audience, such as in the series John must learn Japanese before he is 6 months old out of obligation, and here they show him speaking Japanese in the episode 8 and you have to assume he learned it from what you saw in the series
@@erickkofinke7247 Also.. still just some words here and there, he can neither follow or make himself understood in a conversation.
Yeah when I go to the point I realized they were trying to wrap up the whole novel in one series I was disappointed..
@@Moonhowler89 agree
@@dannicatzer305I quit watching because this show does a terrible job of telling the story
The only actual good thing for me in this episode is the most overlooked part when the dying Lady Daiyo-in told Ochiba not to bank on Ishido so much thanks to his lowborn status.
This kind of event also happened in real life but with Lady Nene (Daiyo-in’s real life counterpart) and Kobayakawa Hideaki.
When Ishida Mitsunari tried to recruit people for the Western army, he asked Hideaki to join him. Hideaki wasn’t so sure which side to join so he asked his aunt Lady Nene for advice and she told him to side with “Tokugawa Ieyasu” because Ieyasu’s troops were fully fresh and healthy (thanks to him getting them out of the Imjin war altogether) so he had more winning chance and Nene herself had a beef with Lady Chacha (Ochiba’s real life counterpart) who represented the Western army.
So Hideaki tried to join Ieyasu following her advice but Mitsunari swooped in the last minute to get him to the West.
However, we all know that Nene’s words left a huge impression on Hideaki. That’s he ended up doing what he did in Sekigahara.
Lady Nene might not be as bombastic in history as Lady Chacha but she’s an unsung hero who changed the entire course of Japanese history. Japan wouldn’t have Tokyo without her.
How I interpreted the seppuku scene: Recall the first episode where it states that every man has three hearts; there is the first heart he keeps in his mouth; the second he keeps in his chest; and the third "secret" heart that HE keeps hidden and buried deep where no man can find if he wants to survive. Toranaga wants to stay alive and is playing the ultimate game of troll. He's purposely trying to appear weak to his enemies (as well as to his own people). Hiromatsu was NOT aware of this plan to appear weak; in fact Hiromatsu thought that Toranaga was indeed sick and is going to surrender, BUT since he sent the priest to deliver the message to Osaka that Toranaga is in bad shape, instead of sending his best men, Hiromatsu at this moment thought that despite Toranaga being sick and weakened, that he would ultimately FIGHT BACK instead of surrendering. HOWEVER, during the scene where Toranaga was gathering signatures, Hiromatsu wanted to call Toranaga's bluff that he's going to surrender (which Toranaga has NO INTENTIONS of surrendering) and vows to commit seppuku unless he forfeits the signatures, and it is at THIS very moment that NEITHER men can back down from what they have said....(LOYALTY, once it's given it can't be taken back...or something like that, Mariko stated), and at the same instance, Hiromatsu UNDERSTOOD Toranaga's true plan....both understood one another, but they must sell the plan in silence and carry on with their word in this final moment--again, it's about honor and loyalty. Hiromatsu knew his duty and carried through. Like a fucking G.
I appreciate that the showrunners are hammering it home that your words carry weight, that your actions have meaning, and loyalty / honor is everything.
If Hiromatsu knew that Toranaga wouldn't come back from his word, then why did he even call out his bluff in the first place.
Never thought I'd like Buntaro more than John, or Mariko.
Right haha
They gave Buntaro a redemption arc for no reason while turning John into a side character.
@@nont18411 Absolutely right. Then Mariko acts like the monster she's become. Her father would be ashamed after the great sacrifice he made to save her. He wanted her to finish what he started and all she does is whine and cry. Pathetic.
@@KellysAdventures305she never had the chance, both in the book and in the series, until toranaga gave her the opportunity.
@KellysAdventures305 Her husband beats her up regularly and she’s basically a servant. Anyone in those circumstances would be suicidal.
I think Omi was one of the highlights of the episode. You really feel the dismay at losing the only friend he had and getting stuck between his loyalty to his scheming two-faced uncle (his direct superior as well as blood relative) and his loyalty to his daimyo. He really reapected Nagakado's reckless loyalty to his father and where earlier in the series he would be conspiring with his uncle, in this one he made his decision to honor Nagakado's memory by dying with Torunaga. You could even see him hesitate for a second to sign the proclamation.
I admit I question some of the decisions in this new adaptation. I don't think there's anything fundamentally wrong with departure from previous versions, but some decisions concernant Blackthorne and Mariko does leave me with more questions than answers. I doubt the final two episodes can turn these two around completely in so little time, but I'll still reserve my judgment.
I'll definitely concede that this new adaptation made me more interested in the secondary cast more than the 1980 version. I can barely remember any characters other than Yabu or Buntaro from that version.
I know I'm probably one of the last person that still defend the decision of not subbing the Japanese dialogue to push the audience into Blackthorne's boots back in 1980, I also understand that it wasn't an option this time around due to the focus on the Japanese cast. I respect the decision as it made me care more for characters I barely registered in the previous interpretation, but I feel the proce to pay was Blackthorne and Mariko almost becoming background characters in this version.
why dubbing the characters ? Subtitles are here for that, and it serves a huge purpose as to the translation biaises.
If anything I am more disappointed that they speak English and not Portugese
Hiromatsu's seppuku was not "planned".... it was Hiromatsu himself, who realized at the meeting that he had a part to play that still aligned with Toronaga's overall strategy. His Generals and the other attendants now have unimpeachable proof of his Surrender to Ishido and the other Regents. Toronaga honors his word and will submit to surrender, keeping the Regents at bay and allowing him to bide time with less scrutiny...while other factors, arranged himself, will bear fruit. Sending his (now) senior ally in Yabu along with Mariko, Blackthorne and all the weapons to Osaka reinforces all of this. The Regent and lady Ochiba cannot be anything but satisfied and will let their guard down.
See pinned comment.
Your last point is a good one. Torranaga is pre positioning his guns and cannons right under the Regents noses.
Torranaga is playing 3d chess and he has his fingers on all the pieces.
It seemed clear to me with Toranada's facial expression upon hiramatsu offering to kill himself. Toranada threw himself back bodily at those words. He did not know. Hiramatsu said, forgive me. He knew that this was the only way. Everyone knew of Toranagas tricks. He sacrificed himself. It was out of love and faith for his lord and his people. He trusted his lord. He told his son to have faith.
If Sanada himself doesn't get an Emmy for that performance I'd be shocked. Every actor in that scene deserves one. They were all so focused in that moment.
Best drama I have seen in years. I forgot what great acting was until this.
Amazing.
It was perfect. Toranada couldn't tell anyone at any point the framework of his plan. He had everyone's measure according to birds of prey. His son, Blackthorne, Yabu, his brother and generals all predictable. Even Toranada was predictable but his best friend, that was not.
You're Right. Hiramatsu was brilliant here. A bright light in an otherwise sad remake. Ordinarily the emotion would be out of place as Torunaga would not want to give away his feelings or thoughts. But here, he does as part of the plan. Hirumatsu was genuinely emotional at leaving his friend in his most dire need, worried for the future of Japan and surrendered his life in hopes that Torunaga will be victorious. It was beautifully sorrowful.
The casting is superb. Great content comes with great casting and great acting. Amazing show
@@KellysAdventures305 Hirumatsu sacrificed himself to convince the other's that Torunaga didn't have a secret plan which would see them try and fight in Osaka of which the other's thought he would lose that fight so they were refusing to go but if their wasn't a secret plan Torunaga would be killed but the rest wouldn't they would be sent home after so they refused because they didn't want to be part of a plan that was in their eyes sure defeat.
Because, in the book, Buntaro is a skilled tea master. this sequence in the book is magnificent.
I have to say I really felt bad for Buntaro in this version of the show. Not only does his wife continue to deny him of any love or compassion. But to turn around and have to watch his father take his own life and then cut his head off, damn. When he started crying before ending his father’s life that hit hard.
Not to mention that she also hated him since the beginning even without the abuses because of his “lowborn” status.
It's clearly not JC's Shogun, but as a stand-alone story I am enjoying it. I though the drama in this episode was really good. The comment of Blackthorne's being between two worlds and not belonging in either was especially poignant for me as I am British but have lived in SE Asia almost half my life - and yep, I don't 100% fit here, nor back in UK. I wish they had made more of Blackthorne's reunion with his crew and the noticeable changes in his own behaviours and 'going native', leading to his disgust at their barbaric ways and renewed appreciation of Japan (but I think that came much earlier in the book). Mariko and Buntaro was beautiful and i thought it clear that she has a duty to Toranaga to perform before she can leave this world (that was set up in earlier episodes). Toranaga's deception is well played out and IIRC from the book he is noted as being an excellent Noh performer with impressive acting skills. The manipulation of his generals and enemies are testament to his 'falconry' skills, and becomes clear when Yabu and Anjin do exactly as predicted (Goshawks). I was shocked to see the sacrifice of his greatest general, but thought that scene and the following one with Mariko were very dramatic. Overall, I really enjoyed the tension in this episode.
In episode 8, Dame Mariko visits Toranaga's daughter-in-law to congratulate her on the birth of her daughter.
In the scene, it is revealed that Toranaga's daughter-in-law is also Ochiba no Kata's sister. So Toranaga seems to have at least one other son - who else could be the father of the child?
He commits Seppuku to sell the image that Toranaga is completely helpless and defeated.
Even his own men are turning against his decision.
He appears completely and utterly helpless.
The idea his power structure looks to be in turmoil, combined with his loss...
His enemies now think they have already won.
He is so convincing, even his own men don't realise it.
Also Yabushige and Blackthorne weren't planning on going where Mariko is going.
They were going to go for the Black Ship.
That's why they look at eachother like... ffs plan is ruined.
That was my observation anyway at the end.
Yabushige was abandoning Toronaga to fight/flee/live instead of surrender.
It's why his Nephew says he is not going with him.
He is returning to Toronaga. As I think Nagakado giving his life for what he thought was right has pushed him in that direction too.
How will he attack osaka bro, toranaga don't have enough men for it
@@jamesbalbutin6796 his brother forces will be there and may even escort him into the castle defenses, armed. Lets see if his brother is in on the plan or not
That’s all well and good but then nothing even happened, they didn’t go to war and the big deception plan had absolutely zero impact and was never brought up again
"Its just a prank bro"
The prank:
Episode was crazy. Still loving the show. Its great.
I think one thing you left out that I definitely felt was this episode was a realization of how ruthless Toranaga truly is.
Also, I think something subtle that you might've missed is that Hiromatsu tried to prevent a mass mutiny by the generals. Hiromatsu knew that the plan was to look weak and fake surrender, but that meant everyone had to be on board, but big problem is you couldnt tell that to anybody, because anybody could be a spy. I think during their conversation, when they were looking at each other, they knew what each other truly meant. Especially Hiromatsu's last words to Hirokatsu.
I didn't miss it but I just don't buy it not being already pre planned.
@@TheShogunate it couldve been a "if this, then that" scenario. Come up with back up plans based on likely things that will happen. His death may not have been preordained necessarily. I would do this constantly for military excercises, where Id be thinking of plans a, b, c, & d based on shifting circumstances.
So basically, it could be that hey, during this meeting if the other generals protest too much, you gotta get them to shut up and buy into the lie.
I was hoping to see more of Fujiko, she's still my favorite character
Agreed . Disappointed there was no Fuji in this one
It was all in the eyes. An unspoken understanding that neither wanted , but was thought necessary.
The thing is everyone, on both sides, believe that Torranga has a plan, because he always has a plan. So, he has to go to extreme lengths to convince people that he doesn’t have one.
On the topic of people changing opinions as the series go on, I still enjoy each individual scene and episode immensely. However, knowing the number of episodes, it does worry me wether they have enough time to end it in a worthy way. If I didn’t know there are only two episodes left, I would think we’re about mid-season.
There could be a much longer finale episode, maybe a couple hours long. That's what I'm hoping for anyway, there are so many loose ends left to tie up
Agree with his. The show needs more time to finish properly. It was even worse in the 1980s version though imo.
@@Wheres_the_money_lebowski I thought of that too. The finale is usually longer than the average episode anyway, but I agree they’d really need to hit us with the two hour episode drop to have enough time as things are looking.
@@Ciiran I shudder to think how bad it was in the 80’s version if you think it’s worse than in 2024’s case 😅. Perhaps it’s an issue stemming from the book then.
@@josueroberto7356 I haven't read the book so can't speak for that. But reasonably it is better paced. Imagine this story but with Blackthorne and Mariko mooning and throwing bad teenage poetry lines at each other for 1-2 episodes worth of runtime.
Keen to hear everyone's thoughts on how Toranaga might leverage the situation.
What has the time bought by the deaths of Nagakado+Hiromatsu and the element of surprise, from the others thinking that he has given up, afforded him? All that has happened, but to what end? I feel like the answer would give more context and provide more rationale behind why it got to the point of losing Hiromatsu.
I have neither read the book nor have an understanding of the actual history, so pls excuse my shallow understanding as I'm just a casual viewer new to this show.
No, bro, hiramatsu and Toranada did not communicate beforehand. Toranada saying he did his duty doesn't necessarily imply that. My takeaway from the episode was that hiramatsu never became certain about Toranada's intentions; he simply had an intuitive feeling. However, this intuition solidified into something more concrete through their final exchange. There's also a subtle play of eye contact communication between them. Now, hiramatsu faced two options: either obey Toranada's orders and die without purpose, or commit seppuku and thereby strengthen Toranada's image as a man who has resolutely made up his mind about his surrender. He simply weighed his options and chose to die for a potential cause rather than perishing aimlessly in Osaka a few days later.
See pinned comment.
Hiromatsu’s seppuku was obviously not planned by Toranaga. Instead Toranaga had planned that a general any one of them or many of them would commit seppuku in protest. He hadn’t planned it to be Hiromatsu. And Hiromatsu caught on, and in order to prevent the loss of multiple generals, sacrificed himself to ensure Toranaga’s plan would succeed with minimal loss of generals. Hiromatsu was also able to use this moment to inspire Buntaro in the upcoming battle.
See pinned comment.
The pinned comment is idiotic. Hiromatsu wasn’t aware of Toranaga’s plan. Of course he believes that his Lord is going to fight back. And the loss of one general doesn’t outweigh the loss of multiple generals once he figured out was happening
@@skylerortiztheboxer4910 By not following Hiromatsu's Seppuku, it makes all the other surviving generals look weak not to their enemies, but to their own vassals and their own men. If he had informed the generals in a manner which the show has trained the audience with- subtlety. Instead, blurting out "I think our Lord is lying and this is all a ploy" a few hours before killing himself negates the very subtlety and 'performative authority' this period of Japanese history is marked with. It's just poorly contrived, especially within the established story rules of the show.
@@Shamino1 it certainly doesn’t make the other generals appear weak. That’s just a weird narrative that you created in your mind. You also don’t seem to understand how time works within the story. This is episode is paced over 49 days. Not hours. Also, this entire show is poorly conceived. There was a very well conceived and researched novel that has been perversed by this FX production
@@skylerortiztheboxer4910 I appreciate how you say I make stuff in my head and then more or less agree with me. Be well, friend.
I've never been a fan of the book so maybe this is an unpopular opinion, but I'm enjoying the show far better. My only problem with it is how washed up it's color palette is. Japan is such a colorful country, it's a massive waste to have everything be a different shade of grey all the time!
That bothers me the most (I’m Japanese).
Theres a very easy answer to that...CGI overuse. the 80s was filmed on location with real sets. this series is all cgi and without all the mist/rain and post production dullness, the less than stellar cgi would show up for what it was...a glorified video game. I too have found this grating to say the least in this series.
@@steveday6671 Not a CGI problem, it is a color grading problem. The CGI here is actually not that bad at all, it is good even. And they do use real sets and film outdoors, so that is not the issue. They are doing this to force the viewer into feeling a certain way, but it ends up just feeling unnecessarily dark. When they were marching into Edo, it looked like there was a solar eclipse despite the fact there was not a cloud in the sky!
@@steveday6671 So you are telling me that CGI is incapable of bright colors? This has nothing to do with CGI.
@@tiredcaffeine you dont get it do you? you mask mediocre CGI by removing colour in the same way that u mask a bad colour image by making it mono. the larger the colour system the more pronounced any imperfections are. Why do u think everything is misty and raining and GREY in this series? for the same reason games do it. so they dont have to expensively render detail in sharp focus at massive distance. this series is so damned claustrophobic like everything takes place on a stage in 30 square feet. have u not noticed that?
I just hope the killing off Hiromatsu wasn't done just for the sake of shock and awe. That's borderline Season 8 Game Thronish and we all know that will not do
It was for show and awe, it wasn’t relevant again after this episode
in a series called Shogun, I'm a bit unsatisfied with the lack of fight choreography. Almost no sword play. Even when conflicts do break out or one side ambushes the other, the scene cuts to the aftermath of it. I suspect we'll see some in the penultimate episode, I hope. That stated, I've enjoyed the series thus far.
7:35 Mariko had to refuse him because she has obligations to fulfil. Nothing to do with how she feels about her husband…
Oh no, she hates him with a burning passion.
@@grandmufftwerkin9037I agree however, in this scene that’s not why she refused him. He loyalty to Toranaga is stronger than any feelings she has for herself or another
@@Bruce4lmighty
Definitely, however I would say both are true at the same time.
Even without the obligations she has, she would still refuse him.
Lile she say, ahe want die as daughter traitor, not as a wife with husband she hate.
I enjoyed it, enjoying the season quite a bit. Never read the book or seen the original series, so I'm just happy to be here.
Read the novel; you won't regret it.
I read the novel and didn't like it but I'm enjoying the series . @@grandmufftwerkin9037
Your take on the Seppuku scene isn't right. Hiromatsu has no idea what Toranaga's plan is at all. He was operating on assumptions and him knowing what Toranaga would do, since they've known each other for a long time. Hirmoatsu was correct that Toranaga is bluffing. So after the meeting, he told his vassals to quell their doubts about Toranaga actually surrendering and they are not dying in vein. Fast forward to the Seppuku scene, Hiromatsu still not knowing his leaders plan, even though his assumption was right, decides to challenge Toranaga. He challenges him because he what's know 100% that he and his vassals arent being led to their own death. Toranaga doubles down and essentially sacrifices hims close friend. This in turn leaves all doubt to everyone that he is surrendering. But again he's bluffing
See pinned comment.
I think you completely missed the point.
Hiromatsu didn't have an off screen meeting with Toranaga. He only understood what was going on few seconds before he committed seppuku. And duty bound as he is, he understood that he needed to play his part in Toranaga's plan. That is what those crying stares between Toranaga and Hiromatsu are, they both understood that this was a necessary sacrifice.
See pinned comment.
I really just wish this show had more episodes to have told its story with. So much early on was rushed through, and it always felt like there was never enough opportunity to drink in the setting and appreciate the passage of time in a manner appropriate to the furtherance of the story being told. I would have rather the tension slowly build to the climactic resolution, and for us (the audience) to feel like a tsunami of converging elements was about to come crashing down on characters we have come to care about.
Hiromatsu was clearly not in on the deceit. He sincerely believed in that moment that hope was lost and he wanted to change Toranaga’s mind. Toranaga had no choice but to let him go through with his threat to maintain the ruse. “He did his part” was really just a reference to Hiromatsu standing up for the Minowara Clan, as he would expect him to. The seppoku was collateral damage.
I don't mind this episode because I've seen twists like this before. Toranaga will either fake his death for the council to drop their guard then decimate the council and take the Shogun title for himself (similar to Vikings), everyone will rush off to fight with Blackthorne and Toranaga will appear in the fight (a bit like The Chronicles of Narnia) or he has Mariko lead Blackthorne off to gather allies on a courier mission that either they catch onto or become privy to at the start.
I on the other hand quite enjoyed the fact that it was Hiromatsu who commited seppuku in protest. Having read the books and knowing what is coming, I didn't really feel surprised or tense in most scenes in the show so far, even in this one - that is, until the moment the knife makes contact, at which point I was pretty much shocked and sad, but thrilled at the super high stakes involved.
It was a devastating moment. I never saw it coming. The reaction of all the other samurais in the room was superb. I feel it was better than if some random general we never saw before had done the same - we just would not care if that had been the case. This, I think, showed how committed Toranaga is, and how he will do anything to win. And it showed a bit his true colours, too.
You’re correct that seppuku is usually done indoors, but if the objective is to make drama so believable that Ishido and Ochiba fall for it then a spur of the moment indoor seppuku would be better than a properly planned one outside.
That being said, surely sacrificing Hiromatsu is too much, full use of Nagakado’s death could have been sufficient ….
I'm unsure at this point of whether the deviations from the source material will improve or detract from the overall impact of this story as it designed by Clavell.
Nah, if they were going to kill off Hiromatsu he should’ve died like Torii Mototada, and Nagakado should’ve had an Ueda moment.
And about Sekigahara: If you look at the video made by FX called “The Making of Shogun - Chapter Five: Expanding the Vision with VFX” there is a small snippet of Ishido dawning his famous armour from Sekigahara riding out to meet Toranaga, the two of them have MASSIVE armies behind them, whilst the narrators talk about making battles with tens of thousands of Samurai. So what else could it be?
I think the series is trying to keep those of us who already know the story in suspense and trying to surprise us. Anjin saved Toranaga twice, he told him in episode 6 that he would be loyal to him until the end, and they gave him command of the cannons. It doesn't make sense for Anjin to change so radically before the war and damage the whole character arc of a character that is already quite damaged. I believe that, just like the plan with Hiromatsu, there is a plan with John that they didn't show in any scene and that will be revealed in the end. In fact, it was the only way to make Yabushige betray Toranaga in the end. If you look closely, Omi tells him to watch out for Anjin, who is dangerous. I don't think Toranaga would give John so much power knowing all along that he was a traitor
I hope you are right and they redeem the character of Blackthorne. He wouldn't betray Toranaga.
Yes, I felt that Blackthorne's exit from the surrender scene in a previous episode was an act for the benefit of both loyal daimyo as well as Ishido and his men.
fax
To everyone who thought the love story between Mariko and John took up too much time in the original. Good news it looks like they’ve pushed that story down 😆
And with that gone, so many of Clavell's most thought provoking themes have been lost.
I’ve always found the Mariko/Anjin romance implausible. Lady Mariko is too bound by duty and honor to act on her feelings. She would see it as a betrayal to her Lord Toranaga and her Lord Jesus.
@@dstarling61thanks God someone who understands it. I mean it is just weirdo white men fetishism of asain women who r crying about a love story. I like the changes they made which shows Mariko prioritizing her goal and service to toranaga rather than engaging in frivolous forced love story .
Ecstatic that they have cut all the cringe "I love thee" dross from the 1980 series. It took up too much time and felt forced. Focusing less on Blackthorne and more on the politics and culture of Sengoku Jidai was 100% the right choice.
for those of you saying it wasnt realistic... so never in history did women trapped in loveless marriages get swept of their feet by some mysterious, handsome, dashing bloke who was "dangerous to know"? personally all the history i have read is full of that.The problem with this series is that the two potential love interests have absolutely ZERO chemistry. in the 80s one the leads managed to pull it off more convincingly and Yoko Shimada couldnt even speak English at the time!
I loved the 80s miniseries when I was a little kid and later absolutely adored the novel - that being said, I’m just so completely invested in this show. I know it’s not exactly like the book but I’m willing to let this show be it’s own thing. I didn’t expect to sob like a baby when Hiramatsu died, that hurt cause he was one of my favorite side characters.
Also question. I would like to know what is the power dymanic between the Shogun and Emporer of Japan is like. As my brother is also confused how the shogun and Emperor works.
Love the review
I still like the show. It's my introduction to this IP. I plan to watch the original show then read the book, when this is finished.
I also felt the Hiromatsu death was done purely for drama, but at least it does seem mostly coherent to the story as a whole (if a little cheap to amp up tension, which is unfortunate for such a major player). but i think they explained it about as well as possible.
in some series, when they change things drastically, the story begins to fall apart-even if you aren't familiar with the story, this can be seen. My mind may change when I've seen everything else, but it still seems like a strong story overall.
I do have a weird feeling we're getting a big cliff hanger for a potential season 2, which I'd also consider unfortunate.
But I really appreciate your videos. They're helping me understand the story, and the environment. Great stuff.
5:50 See the two younger guys in the back? The ones with the different haircuts from the others? Are they wakashu?
Spitting on the legacy of James Clavell.
As someone who hasnt read the books or saw the old version i am really enjoining but i also see where your comings from all in all 9/10 for me
The scene where they honor Nagakado and the tea scene were both really nice.
No off-screen meeting or anything like that. During the scene, they exchange glances, I've assumed this was a "silent conversation" conveying that toranaga will not/can not back down but does indeed have a plan, and hiromatsu trusting his lord.
See pinned comment.
@@TheShogunate thank you for the note. my comment did not in any way disagree with any of your arguments, which i personally all agree to. i only meant to share what i feel the showrunners wanted us to understand, without further judgement on why it was still a bad move, as you have already argued well in that regard.
I believe we hear that Ochiba's sister (that Mariko visits in this episode) was Toranaga's daughter-in-law, no? So he'd have to have a son, presumably one older and more established than Nagakado was. Which has been confusing me since episode 1.
I guess I'm confused why they did not show the son then to more firmly establish it.
Rip Nagakado Avocado and Hiromatsu
Best scene in the show so far imo. Toranaga, Hiromatsu, Buntaro, Oni, Yabushige and all of the generals delivered fantastic performances.
My interpretation during the scene was of a noble sacrifice made by a loyal man for the friend that he loves. The previous scene with Hiromatsu telling the other that Toranaga had not given up was a bit clumsy, I'll agree with that. Hiromatsu quietly saying something like "What are you up to, old friend?" to himself while watching Alvito leave the audience would have given us enough clues without leaving a plot hole in the story.
Overall, one of the better episodes in the show. It's interesting to hear differing opinions from The Shogunate. Love the channel for the historical content but this is the main reason I watch these reviews. Me and my friends all love the show, and the opinions of others forces me to look deeper.
Great stuff The Shogunate!
As someone who has spent four decades studying the logic of power in feudal and early modern societies, I absolutely agree with your assessment of how wrong it is to sacrifice Toda Hiromatsu, and that for two major reasons. Firstly, Toranaga/Ieyasu is a warlord in a volatile feudal system of competing rulers; his authority is not (like, say, that of most European kings) based on 500 years of essentially undisputed heredity, but rather on his ability to convince both his equals (other major daimyos) and his inferiors (lesser daimyos and the heads of important samurai families) that he will make it to the top and take them with him. (Sure, these other players have some code of honour; on the other hand, they also know that being on the losing side in this conflict can very easily lead to the complete eradication of they families.)
Sacrificing your most important general like that will not only deprive you of his services in the forthcoming fighting. More importantly, once the ruse becomes obvious (as it must when you eventually start fighting), others will have to think that not even the loyal service and personal closeness of Toda Hiromatsu prevented you from sacrificing him like this, and will therefore be less inclined to serve you, or become your allies - in a situation where they could still very much chose an alliance with the other side, as demonstrated at Sekigahara where the decisive push came from a daimyo whose loyalty was unclear until the last moment.
And secondly, more generally, even if all that were not a problem already, it would still be an insane plan to deliberately spend months trying to look as defeated, hopeless and inert as possible. In Toranaga's strategic situation, all depends on convincing other actors of equal power that they need to be his allies because he will win anyway, so trying to convince all of Japan of the contrary would be self-destructive even before your potential allies were to find out how you sacrificed your most important servant. It really is the kind of strategy that only people with no understanding of historical (and continuously relevant) power dynamics could come up - people like the showrunners or scriptwriters I guess, because their main frame of reference would be film scripts where a single ingenious twist (the more suprising the better) can solve everything. But history never worked that way.
Window dressing of Japanese customs aside, Toranaga's actions in this episode portray him as a manipulative individual willing to sacrifice his most trusted allies to seize power and ensure his own survival. The next one to be sacrificed will be lady Mariko based on the ending. I transitioned from being a staunch supporter of the character in the previous episodes to feeling disillusioned with the direction of this plot, as well as how this show has treated John. This show has strayed from the book and didn't develop the story as well as they could have (needed 2 seasons atleast), Hiromatsu and Toranaga son didn't die in the novel as well.
It doesn't make sense that Mariko hates Buntaro because it was an arranged marriage and not out of love. That was the normal situation back then for people of their class. I agree that is what the show implies. They are trying to make some of the characters more modern in their outlook than is realistic for the period.
After the incident regarding her father, who knows what Physical and Verbal abuse Buntaro hurled at Mariko. Remember, he beat her after the dinner with Blackthorne. This may have continued for years destroyed any affection she had for him.
The reality is that she simply had a rather healthy and good relationship with John. But in the series, they simply broke all of that. The ironic part is that they make references like "it's the curse of the Anjin, you're thinking about him", "there's a shadow between you" and those who don't know the story are left wondering like: but what the hell? If they haven't had anything?
Yes, another "Modern"(tm) adaptations for "Modern"(tm) audiences that don't exist and nobody asked for. The Panderverse lives on.....
@@KarlKarsnark Kind of a snobby take. Few TV shows even attempt authentic historically grounded world-building, maintaining a world inhabited by fictional characters. It allows more scope for good storytelling. I will wait until the series is over and look for reviews from Japanese audiences. Consider HBO's Rome. Rushed ending due to cancellation (too costly) and very poorly received by Italian audiences. Since it used REAL Historical figures then screwed with their well-known life stories and "relationships". That turned off Italians who are rightly proud of their ancient Roman heritage. Imagine a non-US production of the American Revolution making Washington a slutty ladies man or a dancing Ben Franklin as a 30 year old spouting contemporary English idioms....all while taking itself seriously. It would BOMB !
@@goobfilmcast4239No, she clearly says she never loved him. She was the one who brought tension into the family by joining a banned foreign cult, endangering the whole family.
You answered your own question. He committed seppuku in the audience room so that everyone could see. Obviously that was for a reason.
I don't see how Hiromatsu's death prevents the generals from rebelling if they think Toranaga is going to surrender.
You're right, and Yabushige is already setting out on his own
It wasn't about sending a message to his own men.
It was about sending a message to the word that would reach Ishido.
Toranaga is so helpless his vassal and lifelong friend committed seppuku.
He looks completely defeated to his enemies and even his own men.
Everybody is buying what he's selling.
@@JoeRowland90exactly 👍🏻
@@JoeRowland90 but if his men rebel against him, that is all going to be moot.
Hiromatsu’s death was to show everyone that Toranaga is defeated. I believe that Toranaga is testing his general’s loyalty to see which ones would follow him to the end.
I view Hiromatsu telling the vassals that Toranaga was going to fight was also a some type of set up.
Imagine being told there's hope then that particular man died because fighting was never an option.
Cannot both keep the rebellion in check and fool the enemies + spies at the same time. Hiromatsu made sure Toranaga could fool his enemies and who should rebel would rebel.
Well, 2 eps left and I'm hopeful.
RIP hiromatsu
This old grandpa made me cry. 😢 He is one of my favorite characters.
Indeed.
Thank you as always Shogunate for another invaluable review!
The flame of my hopes for this show had been fanned by what appeared to be improvement with the past two episodes, but that flame has been doused by this one... isn't entirely extinguished, but there is only so little time left for this show to turn things around. And at this point, I have very little confidence in the screen writers.
Again I assert thay this show should not be considered an "adaptation of" but an "inspired by". Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but is a great disappointment and upsetting when it was advertised as an adaptation. I also greatly dislike and am upset by another historical inaccuracy with the seppuku. The inaccuracies as far as I'm aware have been fairly few and far between, but they shouldn't have happened to begin with. Particularly when they touted so much the shows historically accuracy. The inaccuracies I'm aware of could easily have not had happened.
Well thanks again and as always Shogunate!
agree 100%
Was waiting for your review! Absolutely love your channel and how you approach these via talking about the books and also real historical facts! Thanks for everything you do!!
Funny you mentioned that Toda committed suppuku in the audience chamber. I was thinking, apart from anything else wouldn't that be very messy? Surely he's step outside into the courtyard and do it. It would be a nicer spot to do it and the old warhorse ignoring the rain and going out how he wanted would be a good image for the show.
Maybe a way of having your cake and eating it too would be for Toranaga to say ok you can kill yourself but first go home and settle your affairs and write your death poems etc and then do it.
That would give Toda time off screen to like totally go home and settle his affair and totally not go and organize the army you have been hiding Lord Toranaga. But what do I know I'm not a highly paid show writer.
As others have mentioned, Toranaga's granddaughter and daughter-in-law appeared in this episode, so their father/husband is another son of Toranaga.
Also, when Toranaga was having his will written, he said "my grandchildren" so clearly he has some heirs other than Nagakado.
Blackthorne has to be in on the plan. Someone said that his request for charcoal is a sign. No one knows anything because Toronaga isn’t sharing everything with his main people. I think Mariko really thinks Blackthorne is disloyal.
They went for Shock Value.
I feel it was a bad choice tbh. For the reasons you stated.
That said, as a long time fan of doramas etc, I'm still loving the cast. They are crushing it.
I never expected to actually feel such heartbreak for Buntaro in this episode. You saw a more human side reaching out an olive branch only to realise he is too late and all that entails.
I fail to see how sacrificing such a important and loyal general achieves here. He couldve told them all of his plans without causing all this damage, because right now all they see is a crazy weak old man that doesn't really inspire loyalty
The sacrifice was not planned, but it was needed. Toranaga and his clan are at their wits end after Saeki's betrayal, grave sacrifices must be made just for the clan to survive.
What the hell were they thinking killing off the most loyal vassal Toranaga has? That was a dumb decision!
Unrelated but would love to see a video covering individual shinobi like hattori hanzo or fuma kotaro
I agree wholeheartedly with your criticisms of their Lord Hiromatsu plot divergences and the goofs in executing [no pun intended] them.
The worst that can be said of the original [1980] series? 1) That its interior lighting was obviously unrealistic and anachronistic, lit up with off-camera artificial lights in the manner of 90%+ of what airs on TV, including the commercials; and 2) that, IIRC, its musical score by Maurice Jarre was recycled too repetitively... although Jarre's themes and motifs were great, he didn't compose enough of them.
The worst that can be said of this series? 1) That it wasn't filmed in Japan (admittedly, for good reasons), and the parts of Canada that stood-in aren't entirely convincing; and 2) that it takes huge (and, so far) unjustified liberties with James Clavell's plot and even characters.
I know which shortcomings I rank as being more detrimental, at least so far.
This series has become a set of disjointed snapshots that attempt to leap frog the viewer through the story. Every scene until the funeral was dark and gray. No relationships with other characters are explored. It's a postmodern pastiche disconnected from anything that would draw a viewer into the story now.
There is no way this series can come to a reasonable finale now.
1980 wins.
2024 Massive FAIL.
What a pretentious comment.disconnected from the viewer? Lmao it is on the way to become the most loved series and millions are Watching it. The q980 cringe love story is nowhere near this political masterpiece. If you want to watch color stick to marvel.
@@dhimankalita1690 Let me guess. You still watch Saturday morning cartoons.
@@KellysAdventures305 let me guess I r a weirdo weebo who obsessed over japanese girls and is angry bcs u didn't see a jap girl obsessing over a white men. Classic in*el
In The book it was Toranaga's brother and Ishido trying to court Lady Ochiba. She had several suitors at the end. She was kind of pulling the strings the whole time.
Let me play the other side on Hiromatsu's death, who is more important, one old trusted general with few troops, comparatively, or 10 generals and all the troops they command. I don't think it was planned between them, but when Hiromatsu saw the others ready to die he called an audible, when he asked "so you do believe in a pointless death" he was saying "Well I don't either"
I completely understand why he did it, that's not the issue. I'm more upset that he had to do it. Had Toranaga informed Hiromatsu of the plan, they could have more easily worked together to secure the support of others. But having an unspoken understanding that this has to happen is quite odd especially given the fact of just how significant Hiromatsu is.
Buntaro's life is just tragic all the way around.😢😢😢
What annoyed me is that the seppuku scene literally came to nothing, it’s not even mentioned again and nothing happens. The idea it was to convince his enemies that he REALLY wasn’t going to resist them was meaningless as nothing happened
Why they do Buntaro so dirty? He doesn't deserve...
He reminds me of "Cheng Hee" from "My Liberation Notes". In the begging it seemed that we would like him very much, but in the end he seems the more emotionally complex and interesting character, the one with the more easy to empathize struggles. It's the character that among all others it's the one that you think, "I hope he meets a happy ending".
He is still an abusive fuck who beats and treats his wife like shit.
I can be simpatetic towards someone struggle, but buntaro lost that simpathy being an abusive fuck.
I laughed when I saw the Torii gates at the funeral. Absolutely ridiculous.
Please explain
@@1521Palm Cremation is a Buddhist practice. Death and cremation is considered impure, and defilement. Torii is used to designate a purified sacred space in Shinto, You would NEVER see a torii gate used this way. Even in the days when Buddhism and Shintoism were more syncretized I don't believe you would ever see a torii gate used at a funeral.
@@TanukiDigital Interesting, thank you. Strange that the historical advisors or someone like Hiroyuki Sanada didn't inform them about this.
We'll have to see what exactly the "plan" is but at the moment it doesn't seem like what Toranaga gains through a complete deception is worth the cost of Hiromatsu and disheartening his vassals. If all he needed was for Yabu and Blackthorn to jump ship, there were surely easier ways of achieving that.
As far as my feelings for the whole series, I love it. Sure it has some "interesting" narrative choices but globally, I feel like it's something I've enjoyed as a fan of Japanese culture.
It's maybe helped by the fact that I've never seen the previous adaptation and that I've only started to read the novel...
It is interesting who did sign the suicide surrender pact - Yobushige and his nephew Omi. One with no intention of checking out of the plantet, and the other out of loyalty doing as he should. The others refused, and Hiromatsu commits sepuku as part of the plan, with Buntaru doing clean up work and outside of the plan. I suspect that Toranaga needed this to happen, depriving him of his friend and most loyal soldier, but knowing he can be replaced by Buntaru and Omi. Toranaga knows he can trust Yobushige as far as he can throw him, but if things work, he will be on board.
My favorite scene in this episode was Alvitos Reaction to where the church will be built. XD
The church by the 304 house is too funny
Not a book reader but I feel the show is falling a bit flat after a great start. Very much enjoying the scene by scene beauty and drama tho. Seeing how Blackthorne's character was changed and maybe minimized from the book and 80's series I wonder if they thought about removing the character completely? Seems like this show would have been fine without him included.
Toranaga must have at least one other son, the father of his granddaughter we saw in the episode and husband of Lady Rin (sister of Lady Ochiba).
My biggest issue with the series is the diversion from the book plot points. The book was amazing, I don't know why they changed things for no reason. It also feels super rushed. This show could have easily been 2-3 seasons. Why did they feel the need to shoehorn it into one season?
I just watched the 1980 version last week and i thought it was very enjoyable!
I do think the romance part is way too focused on and that ending was so anticlimactic that i thought there was actually another episode which i then spent an hour looking for
I enjoy this new series too but it feels off somehow
I hope they manage to stick the landing though
Killing off anyone other than Hiromatsu wouldn’t be convincing enough for the Council.
I just saw the trailer for ep 9. It looks like we will see Mariko's fight in her attempt to free the hostages and we will also see the ninja attack on Osaka Castle in an attempt to kidnap Mariko, so we will probably see the death and funeral of the lady. Mariko! I hope that the two battles will be much better done than what we have seen so far in this series!
You mentioned the problem with Edo castle having burnt down, yet still extent in the Rise of the Ronin game in bakumatsu era. Here in this show Edo castle should not have even started construction yet, as it commenced in 1604, after Tokugawa was granted the title Shogun and Edo really started to be planned as a central city. I guess the castle is just too juicy of a landmark to not include it, actual history be damned! :D
Right! I guess we could also give it some slack as well since it's a fictional story.
i really hope they can squeeze in even a bit of the Battle of Sekigahara, maybe make the last two episodes a bit longer. Maybe it’s because they spent a lot of their money on sets and making sure things are historically accurate. I would love to see their portrayal of the battle, and i hope they have enough time to not rush the last two episodes.. but so far i am enjoying it!
It's weird that Blackthorne doesn't have any connection to Toranaga. One thing about the CGI of Edo being built, it looked just CGI as there was no workers at any moment there in the visuals.
The ultimate way of convincing to fool the council is if Toranaga's 2nd in command commits seppuku. In that sense, it makes sense.
Still like the show and am very excited to see it conclude. My only gripes are the lack of action in these intermediate episodes, and the color grading. It can get a little boring and feels very static. The color grading is terrible, it makes Japan look like a miserable, dreary, depressing place, like the UK. LMAO!
Never bodes well for adaptions of masterpieces when the screenwriters begin to go off the reservation. That said, I'm hoping they are concluding the series in such a way as to leave open the possibility for a second season focusing entirely upon the Battle of Sekigahara.
Toranaga is based on Tokugawa Ieyasu.
Ieyasu had his wife killed and made his eldest son commit seppuku because they were suspected of having a secret liaison with his enemy.
By doing so, it was believed that Ieyasu tried to show his loyalty to Oda Nobunaga.
So, the scenario of attempting to deceive the enemy by forcing a loyal retainer to commit seppuku is not at all an outlandish setting, if it is based on the actual history.
Yes but that seppuku was ordered and carried out in a specific manner. It's was not an unspoken understanding like here.
I think I would have enjoyed this series more if I hadn't read the novel, and been a lifelong fan of it.
I'm deeply disappointed with how Blackthorne's character has been changed, and how he and Mariko's relationship has been all but obliterated .
Things cannot be obliterated when they are non-existent in the first place
@@nont18411
I'm left asking why she pillowed with him in the first place. As it stands now it actually makes her choice to do so look quite frivolous.
Such a disservice to the gloriously cunning and complex character from the novel.
@@grandmufftwerkin9037 Blackthorne was reduced to just Mariko’s boy toy to distract herself from Buntaro in this version
It sucks. Because this would be an amazing series on its own. But having read the Novel, I hate seeing all of the changes.
I didn't like the novel but enjoying the changes made in the series
Someone else has probably already pointed this out so forgive me if this isn't the freshest of takes. But I knew this was going to go off the rails when they decided to omit Blackthorne's attempt at seppuku. It's a pivotal moment in the development of the character and how everyone interacts with him afterwards. But I suspect it was omitted so they could de-emphasize Blackthorne's story in favor of Mariko's. It would also explain why the romance is nonexistent in this version. Which also explains Cosmo Jarvis' casting. There's nothing about him or his portrayal of Blackthorne that makes you believe Mariko would risk her life to be with him. It's also revealing that none of these changes are addressed in the official podcast for the show.
Also, I agree that the colorist for the show seems obsessed shades of grey and blue. Very oppressive.
I think the show made it pretty obvious Blackthorne is borderline fluent and that he's part of some grand design. Just feels a bit sudden and rushed to now show it.
Would be interesting if that turns out to be the case
Yeah I agree, that's the only part that I dislike. The somewhat rushed feeling I get. They needed a few more episodes to at least properly plant the "twist" that Blackthorne is fully in on Toronaga's plan.
It was my favorite episode thus far, Hiromatsu was a fan favorite and it sucked for all of us but I respect their bravery in killing him off, hopefully they will stick the landing.
Doesnt toranaga ask buntaro why he doesnt just divorce her? He clearly foes have a choice. Mariko on the other hand does not.