Response to Mike Winger, Who are the People Christ saved?
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- čas přidán 3. 12. 2019
- The video editor kept bugging out on me day, so sorry for the delay! We will continue with our weekly content, LORD willing.
We finally give our response to Pastor Mike Winger’s July video regarding limited atonement, today focusing on the topic of intercession. Important material!
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I would love to watch a live conversation between Dr White and pastor winger.
Shanks22 I would pay to see that.
@@HarrisonB72 here you go... czcams.com/video/Wgh103siQtg/video.html ... this guy's channel responds to both of them actually
czcams.com/video/Wgh103siQtg/video.html Check out this guy. He destroys both of the White and Winger's interpretation. Kind of hilarious to watch....
Beware of rome trolls on here... *Please see the quote: “thee do I entrust my soul.” (Prayer to Our Lady of Perpetual Help #7 - **www.catholic.org/prayers/prayer.php?p=876)*
-Catholics are maryians not Christians.
-Not a calvinist but we must give credit where credit is due: czcams.com/video/bdGYSKicgUc/video.html; excellent irrefutable points.
@@kellystrauss9888 that channel you posted is awful.
I really like Pastor Winger, and I believe he is a true Pastor who has a heart for GOD and his people, but I think he is wrong in this case.
Mike wingers on point. Hard to grasp how you can still remain a Calvinist after watching mikes video. This will forever be a mystery to me. The scriptures couldn’t be more clear on universal atonment
Thank you for not wavering and moving away from the grace, mercy, and glory of God.
These types of videos are great for people to hear including myself. Please keep it up! I’m loving the videos and how they make me think, challenge me and encourage me to learn more about God. So, thank you 😊
Dr. White, thank you for doing all of this content. It is really helping me.
True point about the lack of knowledge on behalf of the average christian, on the atoning sacrifice of Christ ..............
Christ died for a people. His chosen. It is all of God, but some like to elevate man
we can say he died for all men (all type of human),he died for the whole world (the whole nation),or he died for MANY people (Specific and Detailed Explanation)
When the bible says that Jesus died for the sins of the world then that's what it means, bible is pretty clear. You undestimate the love and grace of God by saying he only died for some.
@@StallionFernando Did he die for Satan? Judas?
@@billhesford6098 that's an odd question, did they repent and believe?
Judas was made for the deed he did. He was never going to repent - couldn't. Unless God failed. There are no accidents.
I learned a lot. Thank you Dr. White.😀
Mike Winger really bothers me- I hate to say it, because I am pretty sure he’s a believer. But it’s like he’s saying belief is a choice. Belief is a result of being convinced. There is an interaction with an external force, and you are convinced by that force. And that external force is the God the Holy Ghost. The Bible makes much more sense when we realize believers are not saved as a reward for belief, but that we believe because we have been regenerated as the elect, and belief is the moment of conception for the new man at the time that God has appointed. To be a synergist is to essentially say that God does not have sufficient power to save.
The Bible does not support regeneration before belief, and the Bible instructs us to repent and believe. Paul clearly states in Romans that faith "is not of works", he goes so carefully, clearly, patiently, over and over - and you still want to ignore it and say faith is a work, which is one of the Calvinist deceptions, going right against the Bible itself. Receiving something as a gift is not the work that gets the gift, it is the giver who gives it. It is so clear ... so you might want to rethink about Mike, because he takes the Bible more seriously on this than James does, who rides roughshod over it with his Calvinistic dogma - and that is what it is. Mike listens more, James listens less, and this seems to be a feature of Calvinists, including less humanity, less humility, generally. I think generally either the legalism grows slowly, or Calvinism attracts legalists, or both. It is so much easier to say God is responsible, we are not, que sera, sera - what will be, will be ...when God in His divine sovereignty says we are responsible, and He is overall responsible.
@@philipd8868no one seeks after God,all have turned away…those in the flesh are hostile to God…no one can come to Christ unless the Father enables them…only by the supernatural power of regeneration can a person repent and believe. Regeneration precedes Faith. Even though a person says “ it must be something I’ve done”,the Bible explains otherwise.
Yeah, he believes in a god that does not exist. A false god that cannot save unless man cooperates and let's him.
mike winger isn't a synergist; if you're bothered by Mike Winger, you should watch his videos to see what he says. e.g. in 'Responding to Calvinist Arguments for Limited Atonement'
@@penelope8076 If he isn’t a synergist what is he? An Arminian or a provisionist?
I do not believe intercession is “available” for all. Ephesians 2 tells us we are saved by God’s grace and through faith-which is also a gift from God. Salvation is all God, even the true, converted and repentance faith that we are called to have. If you believe God is all knowing, how can you debate that He doesn’t know who will be saved. Every Christian should believe in predestination.
I’ve watched the back and forth. The argument in White’s other video was that if grace was given to all, what is the difference between those who are saved and those who are not. I never saw this addressed by Winger. But the answer is basic. “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; Ephesians 2:8. If I give you a gift, all you need to do is accept it. That in no way takes away from the source of where it comes from. Christ died for all, but only those who accept his gift can be saved. Isn’t this scripture? Am I wrong? The act of accepting a gift doesn’t negate the work that Jesus did on the cross.
The text does not say anything about accepting as if you see a gift package and accept it. Instead when comparing this passage to John 3:3 it says:
“Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.””
John 3:3 NASB1995
www.bible.com/100/jhn.3.3.nasb1995
One is already born again before one even sees the kingdom of God. It was a gift, not in the sense of observation, but one totally of His grace, and His grace alone.
well said!
Amen
Spot on
..all you need to do is accept it????When you are drawn by God the drawing is irresistible. We go running to Christ with joy and thankful praise to our Saviour. Regeneration precedes Faith is the perfect Biblical understanding.
Mr Winger is a thinker and seems to be humble to recieve understanding, not dogmatic
This is the true Gospel!
Which brings all glory to God!
Amen start with letting them read the scriptures for themselves and let God do the speaking for you.
James White, there is much that I've respectfully disagreed with you on. But your statement about Christians ignoring the beauty of Christ's work and instead focusing on looking for the end days couldn't be more true. Amen brother.
As I believe and understand. Jesus died that everyone may come to Him through faith but until you do have faith in Him and accept Him as Lord and Savior, what can He do for you? What will He do for you if you don’t believe in Him. He took the first step in dying for everyone but we must do our part (not to be confused as a “work”) to put our faith in Him then we can be extended grace and mercy, and whatever else God has for us.
So there was no possibility for faith until Jesus died?
How can we "do our part" when our sinful minds are hostile to God (Romans 8), we don't seek God (Romans 3), we're dead in sins (Ephesians 2), and we love darkness and therefore won't come into the light (John 3)?
Calvin Robinson
Can it be that you have not read the account of the trial of Jesus? which shows that he was executed for an offence against the sovereignty of Rome?
@@jesuguru2394 it's the holy spirit that knocks and calls us to God, we can chose to deny it. I did several times before converting. Even now we can chose ignore the holy spirit when is speaks to us. God calls but not everyone picks up the phone, some people get 1 call others get 100.
@@StallionFernando that doesn’t answer the question he proposed unfortunately.
we seek in freewill then god saves in response per his offer and power. all part of his plan, not ours.
@AVB2 The context is Jewish legalism.
We are to seek God.
The context is Jewish legalism.
We are to seek God.
Hebrews 11:6 ESV / 2,202 helpful votes
And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.
@@donhaddix3770Acts 5:31
God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, TO GIVE REPENTANCE to Israel and forgiveness of sins.
Acts 11:18
When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God HAS GRANTED REPENTANCE that leads to life.”
Acts 13:48
And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and AS MANY as were APPOINTED to eternal life BELIEVED.
Acts 16:14
One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. THE LORD OPENED HER HEART TO PAY ATTENTION to what was said by Paul.
Philippians 1:28-29
and not frightened in anything by your opponents. This is a clear sign to them of their destruction, but of YOUR SALVATION, and that FROM GOD. For it HAS BEEN GRANTED TO YOU THAT for the sake of Christ YOU SHOULD not only BELIEVE in him but also suffer for his sake,
Looks like repentance, belief, and salvation are granted to whom God chooses.
10:45 yes yes yes
I’m a former neo-provisonist. I’m now reformed. I see the clear link now that I used to be criticized for with “free choice” and the link between who Christ died to save and who Christ saves. It’s the same thing. If Christ intercedes for unbelievers who will not come to him, then he has failed in his redemptive work. Mike winger is a brother. But he’s wrong. John 6 clearly indicates ALL that Christ died for WILL come to him. This logically and scripturally implies that those that reject Christ were not drawn by the spirit. It’s as simple as that.
If any man come to you with NOT THIS DOCTRINE, receive them not into your home, neither wish them God speed. If as you profess that "free choice" denies the redemption, the blood atonement of Christ, then it is of the Devil. Paul says that he says not that Christian's should dissociate from the world in general, but if any man "who calls himself a brother" be a fornicator, etc...in other words, denies the Christ of Scripture, the Doctrine of Christ to separate from that wicked man. Yet you call Mike a brother. How is Mike a brother if he denies the atonement?
@@echeneis2256 a person that believes in the lord Jesus Christ is saved eternally. We’re not saved by doctrinal perfectionism. You seem super and rather bitter. Do you need help?
And to add, no he doesn’t deny the atonement.
They should know more. End times prophecy us just an easy hot topic because people feel they can associate with the world around them...Christians should know more about a lot of stuff. Christians don’t read, they hardly read their Bibles and when they do they tend to read it as a self motivational daily pick me up as far as I can tell. I’m a recent convert, the first thing I began doing was devouring books and of course getting into the Word....I went to church the first time about a year ago...in a discussion I had mentioned calvins institutes and Hodges text about theology which I had understood as just being a normal Christian thing to do, and these people didn’t even know Calvin had a book and had never heard of hodge. Not everyone needs to be an armchair theologian but...I think Christians should have a passion and a sincere will to want to have their basis of knowledge always ground see on these topics and to understand them thoroughly.
I would love to debate James white on the wrath of God poured out and satisfied on Christ or not....im just a guy...any time
Under the old covenant, for whom were sacrifices made, a specific people or for the whole world? Was that not a foreshadow of things to come, as it is written? Or, did God suddenly change with Jesus' sacrifice? It is God that gives us the gift of faith- does God gift everyone?
I was saved, then I began to study the Bible by myself. Romans blew me away, along with 1st chapter of Ephesians. It was only much, much later that I learned of Calvinism, and I discovered that I had come to the same conclusions Calvin did. I saw God's choosing EVERYWHERE in Scripture- PRIOR to knowing anything about Calvinism.
2 Peter 3:9 God wants all to come to repentance. What a waste of time for anyone to live on this earth if some of us are going to hell at the end. I agree that all sin will burn in Hell forever. I believe that we need to repent and Jesus forgives for sure. Why would my waste of a life here on this planet (just to go to hell when I die) glorify God?
Let's have the debate: James vs Winger.
Jesus clearly told us himself who he died for in John 10 :11-16.
Maybe Mike Winger has little or no Training in exposition of Grace. It took me years to learn this truth. Because I listened to the church preachers who preached works based salvation. The same applies to the lose of salvation. "Jesus will never leave or forsake me" BUT I CAN LEAVE OR FORSAKE HIM. (IM GOD) So sad to see how often preachers lock in there experience with the teaching of the Bible God choose the people Israel. Before the children were born "Grace" Wil Adam and Eve be in eternity or only if they had faith. Mike cheapens Christ Jesus death and give man equal footing with him How sad. I do like some of his work though because I'm so much further along in my understanding of Grace I have in built triggers. I pray he will reach this view as he studies further. Many have as they grew in Grace.
Mike Winger's response video: 'Responding to Calvinist Arguments for Limited Atonement'
Much better spirit displayed between White and Winger than between White and Flowers....reasons??
No you are not wrong Dr White and it is sad. I try and talk to my Christian friends about things like this but they dont want to hear it. It hurts their heads. I mean it literally hurts their heads
Doug seely yeah I got in a debate with my collage group about It. I’ll just say I destroyed them but they wouldn’t listen and kept shaking there heads. People do not want to listen to the scriptures sadly.
@@HarrisonB72 czcams.com/video/Wgh103siQtg/video.html how about this debate...
Calvinism is wrong, change my mind
Substitutionary atonement is not necessary for Calvinism to be true and for the atonement to be limited. In fact it is inconsistent with limited atonement. Calvinists actually oppose themselves when they promote substitutionary atonement.
lol who’s gonna have to jump out first if we start with Roman’s 8. How about starting with genesis 1:1, who’s gonna have to jump out first then lol
Suuuuuper late to this conversation. But if we look at this through the lens Jesus used to explain salvation with the prodigal son - the son returns home from the world and specifically the pig pen BECAUSE he knows his father's love i.e. he knows his father would feed him and treat him far better than the world has treated him. So the father's love and grace draws the son into turning/repenting from the world and going home, by faith that has been given him because he knows and has received his fathers grace (which is Ephesians 2:8 in a nutshell) - that is the father's work and the father's work alone, the son just receives it not by force but by faith, given by the father BUT received by the son. The son returns home, which again is brought about by faith he received by his father's grace, and the father - awaiting with open arms - receives him home.
There is none who seeks after God... except God's grace softens our hearts AND we respond by faith given BY him and received BY us. I think my main beef with the whole Calvinist/Arminian debate is our refusal to acknowledge that God's thoughts are higher than ours and there are truths that we really ought to accept by faith are a both/and and not an either/or, but refuse to because we need it all to make sense on our terms. Seek to grow in the knowledge of truth always, but do so with fear, trembling, humility and contriteness of heart, and knowledge of the fact we see everything through a glass dimly lit. One day we'll be with the Lord and it'll make sense, in the mean time seek to bring the lost to salvation in love.
@5:31, Correct. The once and for all shedding of blood was intended for all, but the continual intercession is only available to those who come to God through Him. This distinction of His intercession applying to a smaller group than His intention with the atonement is actually clearly made in 1 John 2:1-2.
"My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, WE have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. (2) And He Himself is the propitiation for OUR sins, and not for OURS only but also for ->>> the whole world."
You can follow the first person plurals right back to verse 6 for continuity. They refer to believers. Only those who receive salvation have the benefit of having the Advocacy that comes with it, but God's intention in the Atonement was for all, in order that whosoever would believe on Him would not perish, but have everlasting life. (1 Tim 2:4, 2 Pet 3:9, John 3:16 etc)
He might be referring to thw elect scattered aorund the world not all people. Read john 11:50-52
In Christianity generally, a universal atonement is such a given the assumption is why bother teaching on the particulars of the atonement? Tragic.
I respect both of these men of God and though Dr. White is a very intelligent, astute biblical scholar, he's also very good at rhetoric, but sometimes the rhetoric isn't as solid as it at first sounds.
As I'm listening to this attempted refutation of Winger's position, the point at which Dr. White starts in on the spam email argument is really a shallow polemic against what he clearly already has a predisposition against on his Calvinists view. Though it would be nice if the argument against the idea of the "availability" of intercession along with atonement were tackled with a more substantive rather than rhetorical argument.
Looking to the bible for a better case study on what the open availability of intercession/atonement might look like, what immediately comes to my mind is Noah and the flood. For 100 years Noah was building that ark, warning people a flood was coming... and for 100 years, they didn't listen. The moment the water started coming down, washing over their heads as they were scratching at the boat to no avail, it clearly became DEEPLY personal. Not spam email on black Friday with your name on it, but life or death kinda personal.
No doubt, if any of them had taken Noah up on the offer, it would've been incredibly personal for them too! As they warmed themselves, grateful to be alive on the ark and for Noah and his family, no doubt it was personal. So the email example is a terrible example of an open offer to "get on the boat."
I'm glad Dr. White admitted that intercession is an action. Yes, it is the intermediary action of our Lord and savior, the "vehicle" so to speak, whereby we are saved. But to say it's not personal simply because it's offered to all is simply not true. That's a non-starter.
I'm sure it was incredibly personal to Lot that he was spared. And there are many more examples throughout scripture in which an offer is made and either accepted or rejected, but clearly becomes a personal blessing or curse received and would naturally be regarded as such.
Both Noah and Lot God specifically and personally saw to it that they would be saved by divine intervention. And God personally saw to it everyone else was destroyed by His impartial justice. The bible is revelation. Hypothetical if and buts are not. I love philosophy more than most as I majored in it. But philosophy cannot overcome revelation.
It's a common theme to hear someone who finds it emotionally difficult to accept the atonement..
Romans 8:34
Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
👇🏾
Now Christ's intercession is ACTIVE once He sat down at the right Hand of God..
Christ is, just as He did in JOHN 17 with The High Priest prayer, mediating for BELIEVERS to The Father as The Trinity has decided . NOT for the world but for all those who believe.. its actually making a mockery of Christ intercession to even suggest that Christ is just interceding at the possibility someone believing.. does He not know!? He knows who are His and its for those He intercedes.. think of Christ's pain and suffering for us.. would He then go on to intercede for the mere possibility that someone will be saved .. like 'My blood is there if someone needs it!' .. nothing is wasted.. not a breath not a drop of His blood or His intercession.. Come on..God interceding for someone HE ALREADY knows is NOT written in the book of life.. emotional arguments lead to blasphemy..
Dr J White..I admire you as a teacher and brother in Christ..God bless you.
Honestly. Not to be mean. Not to be a troll.
I have never benefitted from a single Winger teaching.
I have never been able to get anything out of it of value. I think I would have immediately after my birth into Christianity but I found him after that and already his food was not satisfying.
Calvinist never explain why they are chosen over others in their thinking.
I don't want to be a Calvinists but they believe that it is God's choice for His good pleasure, glory and purposes. It won't be know until we see God face to face. It's outside the scope of what has been revealed. I've Paul warns about being haughty over those who were not chosen. That's mostly why I don't want to be lumped in with Calvinists. Many I've met are annoying about it haha.
@@meritorioussir9129 choice is God's will
CHRIST saved ALL MANKIND - They just don't know it yet.
So we have no choice and it is God's will that some should perish and not all come to repentance? As opposed to 2 Pt 3:9.
2 Peter 3:9 talks nothing about the ability of man. It's a command. God commands that all come to repentance, the same way God commands not to murder. But of course, provisionists, exalting man, love making the Bible about man. They love making God look like a big man. Man, man, man. That's all they ever seem to think about.
The atonement satisfies God's wrath at sin-----which is universal. What did God accomplish at the cross-----He condemned all humanity and all sin. The unity in God's election is in His wrath at all. It is this negative universal purpose-----that all despair of self effort------that seems to be the point of Romans 8:3. Paul concludes election with universal bondage....Rom --11:32--; and the possibility of universal mercy. What frustrates me with 5 point Calvinists or those who defend limited atonement is a presumption to know God's counsel, Rom --11:34-- as if He wiped their ---- cleaner then the rest of us. We are all still sinners. The intercession available-----1 Jn 2:1....if anyone sins....Makes us all equally objects of wrath and mercy. Those who abridge God's mercy------do we have the self-awareness to see that the flesh is still under wrath? Matt --6:11--. The intercession at Rom --8:34--------which Calvinists have beaten like a gong for centuries------is it for those in tribulation? Certainly we are a trial to each other. God defends His own righteousness to Satan----- Zech 3:3-----that we benefit from God's defense of His own mercy-----for He chose all Jerusalem, wretched as it is------- to be plucked from the fire.
@Rodrick Evans I was water baptized April 19th, 1985. My salvation was a black and white experience----as I went from a chain smoking, drug using, punk rocker who had been arrested and kicked out of my dormitory for drunk and disorderly-------after I got kicked out of the dormitory, a Christian let me be his roommate, in April 1985 I was exposed to the Scripture for the first time and after reading from John's gospel saw my need for salvation. But back then, my repentance was a u-turn to God.
But, by implication----what exactly do you mean? Salvation is life from the dead. We were dead in our ignorance of God, we are alive in our faith in God our Father through our Lord Jesus Christ. Rom 10:9-11.
christ saved nobody
Sorry to say dr white mike winger is not your brother