Thank you all for enjoying the video. Me and Pete had a lot of fun working on it. That said, please do not harass Lily, Misgender her, or make transphobic comments. Really appreciate it.
Ironically, I don’t even think she’s necessarily wrong, more like Lily’s just telling a half truth with that point. I’ve seen genuinely racist people hate on black characters for simply being black, but call them Mary Sues for it? That I have yet to see.
Uh, haha, *WHAT.* I've literally never seen a race as a reason to call someone a Mary Sue. Literally never have seen that, what a hot take. People usually use the character getting everything they want, they don't have any real conflict, everyone usually loves them, and distorts reality to do all the above to define a Mary Sue, not...their race lol. Llily Orchard thinking that is wacky, what even. Girl is talking about how the trope is sexist but then randomly made it about race?
Lily Orchard somehow lost a shadow boxing fight with herself, an imaginary opponent she made up, and with any random opponent that enters the ring for fun, all at once. I don't know if that's impressive, sad, or hilarious. So to compromise, let's say it's all three.
@@KaiserShounen You should do a response to Lilly's Star Wars videos and her views/opinions on the Sith/dark side of the force Honestly Lilly's thoughts on Star wars is quite... Interesting to say the least. She uses a lot of examples from the KOTOR games of sith not being evil due to the design of those games around player choice and how they choose to play as a Sith. The choices in the old Republic for the dark side being somewhat less evil than you would expect for a Sith.
Guys i think the problem is Lily thinks "I like it so it's good, i don't like this so it bad" and then tries to explain her logic when there is none. And she does that by making shit up
@@That_1GayTheaterKid a moment of silence for Rebecca Sugar who dealt with right-wingers calling SU propaganda and then later left-wingers for doing the same thing somehow.
I mean, tbh, most people are this way. You see many people defend male Mary Sues because they happen to like them and its a power fantasy thats appealing to them.
@@shizachan8421 tbf you can have an overpowered character and still have a compelling plot. Elsa is arguably OP but what makes her interesting is her powers hinge on her emotions which are unstable - the more emotional she is, the more her powers grow uncontrollable, and her arc is about learning to rely on people who care about her. Most people write off Mary Sues because they tend to be uninteresting seeing as their powers can just fix any conflict because the conflict can develop or influence the plot in any way. I can immediately think of SAO's Kirito where the plot itself bends itself backwards for his sake when it's supposed to be the other way around.
@@randompromises1038 I agree, but I also think that there is quite the difference between an overpowered character and a Mary Sue. I thinke ven more than Elsa wie have Superman, who is probably one of the most overpowered super heroes in comics history. But what makes him compelling is how his powers are used to convey his inner godness and heroism and the best Superman Stories are those, that focus on the fact that what makes him special are not his superpowers, but the innate goodness and kindness of Clark Kent, his best moments are quite small acts of him being more akin to a guardian angel, who will show up in your hour of need and who can resolve situations without relying on his powers. A Mary Sue on the other hand is overpowered to convey a very self-serving power fantasy, with the plot and the characters surrounding them bending over backwards to enable this power fantasy. Kirito like you said is one of the most infamous examples of that, but I also think that it shows how easily audiences are able to excuse this in a male character. SAO was well received and had good reviews, it wasn't really until DigiNees review of SAO that the public opinion turned against it and even there I think, that it was really only possible because Kirits framing as a Black Swordsman commited a cardinal sin. But we also see how animes that are worse than SAO actually get a pass. Rising of the Shield Hero absolutely got a pass for political reasons, because of the whole fake rape accusation drama that gave it a reputation of being anti-woke and make culture warriors jump into its defense.
There was an episode of Kamen Rider Kuuga with a scene that used Lily's idea of a Mary Sue, someone giving en enemy a one-sided beatdown, and it worked because it was played for horror. The titular character was so enraged by a villain heartlessly murdering dozens of high school students for a sick game, he outright snapped and ruthlessly beat up the villain so much, right before he killed him, the villain was trying to run away from the hero. This scene works because it while it was cathartic to see this child murderer get his comeuppance, it also served as a shocking moment highlighting just how dangerous Kuuga himself is when he isn't fighting for justice is, in addition to contributing to the show's central theme about the cycle of violence. Yes, Kuuga easily killed the villain, but it was because he was in a dark state of mind that is very concerning to see from someone who is usually an optimist that fights for everyone's smiles. Lily is someone who believes that any problem can be solved with violence, which is an idea that is factually incorrect, both from a writing standpoint and a real world standpoint. Then again, this is the same person who's Star Wars OC is more than willing to murder whoever gets in her way, and is supposed to be the good guy.
Moral of the story: Kamen Rider Kuuga is peak fiction. Godai's overpowered aspects enhanced the story whereas those like Captain Marvel make it worse. But as far as Lily is concerned, both of these characters are the same, so its ok. An utterly worthless sentiment.
Basically in a nutshell, Lily thinks the genocide route in Undertale is the ¨True Ending¨ lol and anyone who argues otherwise are somehow supporters of that one dead evil german man with a tiny mustache.
I remember one video she made where she basically said, "If you don't think violence is the solution, then kindly fuck off from the grown-ups table." She lacks self-awareness so much that cannot see how childish that is.
I really hate the "Everyone I dislike or disagree with is a incel/neckbeard/pick me/basement dweller without exception and only I and the people who agree with me have the correct opinions and are capable of thinking beyond (insert group bad)" mentality, like it somehow automatically dismisses or disproves any and all points the other side has made. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.. I swear, in this case some people will dismiss you as clinically insane for even trying to be neutral toward or even understand Shad in order to present in good faith.
Oh trust me, it gets even worse when you directly address Lily’s talking points. She’ll literally call you every label under the sun just because you point out something that she’s objectively wrong about. You call her out for basically making up an enemy to shadow box against, and she’ll say you’re only criticising her because she’s trans and you’re transphobic. She has no actual leg to stand on so she has to pick something out of the imaginary bubble in her head in order to deflect from actually responding to any and all criticism.
Right? I remember I saw her vid on The Coffin of Andy and Leyley and couldn't watch it for more than 2 minutes because of how staggeringly venomous every line she said was. I didn't even get to her actual point. I have no clue who tf is supposed to enjoy this content apart from literal demons who feed off negativity.
I get that people tend to misuse Mary Sue a lot when it comes to certain female characters, but that doesn't suddenly make the term invalid when it's necessary. There are female characters that perfectly fit that description, and denying that feels like pure cope from fans of those characters of types of characters.
@@jacobcain1352 Usually the worst examples are when a female character is more competent than a lot of other characters, even when they explain why they are competent thanks to being trained or having a skill that's unique to them alone like the main character from Prey or Hazel from the new FOP show.
@@kingbash6466 I wouldn’t be surprised if thats the case. I don’t really know enough about the examples given to really argue either point. But maybe you can answer some questions I have about prey. My first question is does she show the predator that she’s a worthy opponent? Predators only fight worthy opponents. My second question is how in the hell does she kill it in the first place?
Lilly gets everything wrong. Like she thinks a zombie being raised from the dead is a rape scene, because the necromancer didn't get consent. That's the zombie elf gal her wife keeps on drawing.
@@TrueReverse74 Nope its real. The death knight didnt even like her. He raised her because she was annoying and he was only ever in love for Jaina. Btw Sylvanas also raises people to the dead after she gets her free will back. She's complemented by a dread lord for being ruthless.
Few videos that I watched from her channel before never watching her again due to her being spiteful asshole who is full of stupid takes (Why is the main villian of LoK s1 holds Korra's arms when fighting her in a CQC enviroment?They must be sexist and racist. I don't know Lily, maybe because he is trying to defeat her by preventing her main method of bending because outside of that waterbending chick from s3 everybody uses their arms to bend the ELEMENTS!) I wondered why she hated the protaginst of Warcraft3 who later became tragic villian besides him being straight white dude whos hair is blonde.Honestly I should've seen this coming due to hers personality.
i wondered wth you were talking about but i see you were actually referring to her video about arthas. that was so off to me. because couple of victims of abuse and rape have said that it's an allegory for rape automaticallyy that means that it is? torture can't just be torture? a villain torturing his adversary with a fate worse than death (which is a common trope) is automatically a rape allegory? im sorry to those people but you're wrong. in fact it only honestly hurts your "case" worse by trying to liken things that are "similar" to rape as being exactly like rape.
Here's the thing people don't realize, there is no such this as a "semi mary sue" or a "half mary sue" or a "partial mary sue". There's no spectrum between not being a mary sue and being one. It's just either a character is a mary sue or not, and a character doesn't have to uber-powerful to be one. Like you said, Superman or Saitama aren't mary sues because their stories don't revolve around them to an excessive degree, they don't just have what they need to fix their problems. Rey is able use the force like a Jedi master without any prior training and she's as powerful/skilled as she needs to be to not fail, unlike Luke Skywalker which Reytards mistakenly call a mary sue. Simply saying Rey is a relative of Palpatine or Obi-Wan doesn't fix her issues. The narrative doesn't want Rey to suffer consequences and she always overshadows characters fans care about.
"Mary sues are just a word dudebros use to hate women" would be a compelling argument! ....If it wasn't for that fact that if you knew a tinge of anime, you'd know that "Overpowered guy that's so good at everything and gets all the gurls" is such a hyper-scrutinized and criticized trope in animanga (so bad it turned alot of people off on the isekai genre; myself included) It's almost like people just don't like characters who have everything because they're so great and awesome and stuff
There IS a bit of sexism to it tho, since you’ll see ppl vehemently hate Mary sues. But Gary sues are defended as being childhood self insert power fantasies that are harmless. Theres def vitriol, but its a touch less. But it’s not about Mary Sues or Gary stus, It’s cuz it’s a girl’s interest and not boy’s. So self insert fantasies for girls are bad but self insert fantasies for boys are more acceptable.
@@ma.2089 1. I literally JUST mentioned how people have been vocally against Gary sues 2. I never denied there WASNT sexism; just that people use that as a scapegoat to deflect criticism It's easier to say that your opposition just hates women than to actually listen to the fair critiques they have For the record I don't believe any of that "Erhm woke!!!" crap. I judge a piece of media for what it is; if it's good it's good, if it's bad it's bad There is no ulterior motive like some dudebros think there is.
I mean, Goku doesn't get nearly as much flack for being a Gary Stu as some female character get, but it is something that is a problem when writing any character.
The thing with Clark is that he has all that power but underneath it all he’s still just a guy, the type of guy that would stop and help you fix your car or spends hours with a person who wants to hurt themselves.
Superman's real problem re: power is how ridiculous the scaling has to get for a villain to pose a physical threat to him; if anything, the 'being a good, responsible citizen despite this crazy level of power throwing that out of whack' angle works better for that reason.
Terrible Writing Advice has also done a sequel video on "how not to write a Mary Sue" where he details that his definition nowadays is "a character that hurts a story through excessive favouritism from the author". I think that's a useful definition as well, especially when he points out that many traits are only symptoms, not the disease itself.
When leftist commentators argue that certain characters are a product of "capitalism poisoning feminism" as Lily put it, they're not mad about minority characters being competent, they're complaining about studios having a very narrow view of how those minorities can succeed. Mary Sue characters push a very individualistic version of what it means to be competent: winning the day all on your own without struggling. But that's not realistic. It reinforces the standards for members of these groups to be exceptional. Power fantasy can be fun, but if social commentary or empowerment is the goal you need characters that face their struggles in a more realistic way.
Another good quote about Mary Sues: "Reading a story about a Mary Sue is like reading about a hero whose reached the end of their journey. Or beginning the story where it should end."
For anyone who’s deadly curious, Stockholm is a My Little Pony fan fiction (which Lily admitted to writing in the past and is now desperate to distance herself from it) which consists of a whole lot of incest, pedophilia, grooming and any other degenerate filth you can think of. Most of the plot consists of a mentally deranged Rainbow Dash taking advantage of and grooming her own family member. I haven’t properly read it myself (thank fuck for that), but definitely do not go and seek it out, it’s fucking horrid that this was ever even conceived in the first place 🪦
@@DSmith3279 I can give you the barest of bones: My little pony but rainbow dash is a child molester, twilight is abusive to her oc wife that was the MC of a mlp fangame where you colonise ponyville and can see pony cp and pony incest. other things in the fic are incest between sweetie bell and rarity, the cutiemark crusaders shame one of their own for getting molested, written out scenes of children engaging in sexual activities with other children and adults, excusing domestic violence and encouraging it to continue. there are also other fics in this series of fanfiction. one which is mlp lolita but the pedo groomer wins mostly. there's more shitty things in her fics outside stockholm. none I'd recommend reading, she's not a good writer she's just a interesting one (in seeing a dumpster fire). I'd faster recommend you read Mad K in front of your mother, out loud. and trust me: that won't end well either
@@DSmith3279 it's a fic where rainbowdash from my little pony has a penis and rapes the child character scootaloo. The story justifies this and the two end the story in a romantic relationship. This is the TLDR, I couldn't begin to talk about every messed up part without taking up like 5 comments
At this point I'm convinced that Lily is rage baiting and considers any publicity to be good publicity. To me it feels like there's almost no other way around it.
It absolutely is just rage/troll bait. Orchard squandered any chance of being a halfway decent media critic after MLP Friendship is Magic went off the air and can only rely on deliberately pissing off huge fandoms for popular cartoons just for clicks and profit.
Well her CZcams days are numbered, then. People only entertain that stuff for so long, unless you're ridiculously popular on the platform, and Lily doesn't even have half a million subs.
You'd think Lily would have a better idea of what a Mary/gary stu is if shes doesn't spend 80% of her time only watching Steven Universe and my little pony lol
23:51 What I love most about this is that not only does he do this to revive his adopted daughter (the game's administrative AI in the form of a mob) but ... bro could have freed everyone from the game, or atleast try to. The narrative just completely ignores that possibility and nothing ever truly comes out of their relationship with their daughter until the NEXT season.
"Kill your darlings, kill your darlings, even when it breaks your egocentric little scribbler's heart, kill your darlings." -Steven King, while not intentional this is a great way not to write a Mary Sue.
After watching this video, I really question how Lily Orchid even has gotten this far in her youtube channel and still doesn't know what the "mary sue" discourse even means. It really stems from how the writers are so incompetent for making the characters we (as the audience) could root for and emphasize with. Instead, they make the characters tamper with in order for the plot to work for THEM. This robs any potential stakes or conflict off of the story, hence the term "Mary Sue." Do you see why Mary Sues don't fundamentally work in a story, Lily???
A lot of people intentionally misidentify the term 'Mary Sue' in order to dismiss criticism of their pet characters or their own bad writing. Whether somebody is doing so out of malice or ignorance varies on the person (and is usually a combination of both). A lot of times when somebody defends the Mary Sue, you'll find that they're basically just trying to shut up criticism: "Mary Sue is a sexist term, therefore the only reason you don't like the character/story is because you're sexist, therefore anything else you might say is also because you're just sexist, therefore my character is actually great." I think this video was published around the time Lily was working on her fanfic The Sith Resurgence, where her OC (a Dark Lady of the Sith who is the greatest Force user in the galaxy and has the coolest ship and is a super badass but also a precious blossom who has to be protected from big meanie-heads like Leia and pretty much wins the war against the First Order singlehandedly and becomes the new galactic leader and also marries Rey and and and) was accused of being a Mary Sue. You can probably figure out if this video had an ulterior motive.
@MmeCShadow Yeah, after looking into her cringy self insert based on the Star Wars. I can finally confirm this is just pure PROJECTION at its finest 👌
@@MmeCShadow TBH, the asinine reaction of "Oh, my character isn't such-and-such and is in fact great" can apply to beyond Mary Sues/Gary Stus. You'd be surprised how many have similar attitudes when defending Snyder's Superman, Anakin Skywalker from the PT and Kylo Ren from the sequels (both of whom were "conflicted" while committing mass murders/genocide with little-to-no redeeming qualities), and (of course) even RWBY characters. It's this cultist-like mentality that needs to purged from fandoms.
Lily's right that Mary Sues are fun when it's talking about OCs in fandom spaces. Kids making their OC be Princess Moonbeam Glitter is okay. It's fun. Whatever. It's an actual problem in real media. But she has it ass-backwards where she thinks Mary Sue is a term that's more acceptable to criticize children's OCs than real characters
The more I think about Mary Sue's the more I've come to the conclusion is that the difference between a competent overpowered character and a Mary Sue is the actions of the other characters in the story. James Bond is probably my favourite example of a character who meets most definitions of Mary Sue but nobody hates. He's a total badass, he's smart, charming, good at everything, he always gets the girl, everyone likes him. But I've never really heard anyone call him a Sue, because well, setting aside how unrealistically good he is at everything, we do actually like him because he's well written. On the other hand Rey is probably the only big motion picture character who fits every definition of the Mary Sue. Especially if you consider the sequels as fanfiction of the original movies. We have a character insert who overshadows every other character in the story to a infuriating degree. In the Force Awakens she flies the Millenium Falcon better than Han Solo, prior to The Last Jedi Luke was the embodiment of hope, Anakin was the chosen one who would defeat the sith, but the Rise of Skywalker takes that away. And that's why I don't have a problem with hypercompetent characters like James Bond but do have one with characters like Rey. The writers of the sequel trilogy were so hellbent on making Rey the best they literally had to spit on the most beloved characters of the original trilogy. They decided to shit on Han, Luke and Anakin in order to make Rey look good by comparison. The original Mary Sue was much the same way, she was more logical than Spock, a better leader then Kirk, a better doctor then McCoy. If your only way of making a character look good is by making other characters look bad, your writing is terrible. And to me that's the difference between Mary Sue's and well written OP characters.
I think something to note about James Bond is that there were times he was tricked or nearly got done in too, from my limited knowledge of the character. He was fallible. He wasn't perfect.
The thing with Bond and other similar characters is that they have to work and suffer for their success, they have q history and rich experience that lead them to being badasses. And Bond isn't the best at literally everything, for example lots of his success relies on gadgets made and designed by other people, so while Bond is overpowered, he doesn't overshadows other characters in their expert sphere
@@LordTyphAnd Rey is perfect? She spends most of the movies doubting herself and the last one almost falling to the dark side. Just because you think they didn't take it far enough doesn't mean it didn't happen. If she beat Palpatine without Ben's help I would see where people are coming from but that's not what happened. Anakin won a podrace and took out a space station as a todler, the Force can help you do a lot of things. Let's talk about Luke. In the first movie he has no agency. He says he wants to join the resistance but that doesn't play a role in the actual story as he never gets a choice. He gets attacked, is saved by Obi Wan, says he can't leave his uncle, and returns to his farm to find his family murdered, which means he has no choice but go with Obi Wan. They get on the Death Star by mistake, they escape to a planet about to be destroyed, and then he saves the day not because he choose to do so but because the narrative forced him to do so or die, never once did he have the option to escape, only Solo gets that. In the next movies he gets agency but now everything he does is correct. Sure, he got beaten for not finishing his training, but otherwise his friends would have died, and maybe he left his friends to fight the last battle all alone and went ham on his dad thus almost giving in to the darkness but if anything went differently it's possible Vader wouldn't redeem himself. I won't even mention Jabba's palace where every other character goes in to save Solo yet gets captured only making the situation worse only for Luke to go in and solve everything himself by brute Force with even Leia strangling Jabba only being possible because he distracted the guards. I don't much like the original trilogy. Really, even if Rey was Mery or Anakin was a Gary I would not care because I don't actually believe in bad writing. I either like something or I don't, and if I liked Luke I would not care about any of the above, I just think he's a wet blanket of a protagonist, thus any problem with him I notice gets exaggerated in my mind, which is I believe what actually happened to Rey for many people, because even though I am perfectly okay with Mary Sues, I still don't see it for Rey. One Punch Man and Mob are satire of other anime and superhero protagonists, but if they're satire that means the thing they are satirising actually happens even if to a lesser extent, right? For example, Goku. Nappa kills almost the entire cast? Goku comes in and doesn't even struggle, in fact he only struggles against Vegita who is even stronger than the one who beat the entire cast. Racoome? the same story. The rest of the cast can barely make Frieza feel pain? He makes Frieza take the form he never used before just to compete with him. He got Super Sayan, a form Vegeta tried so hard to achieve, from a bout of righteous anger for his friend dying, which while satisfying narratively satisfying to show caring about people makes you stronger than being out only for yourself still can be called unearned, and by the time he gets to Super Sayan 3 he can just achieve the form off screen because the narrative is no longer interested in how he gets the forms no one else can, with the reason this form is only possible to sustain if you're dead being more of a handwave. There is a reason "can he beat Goku" is a meme, yet no one calls him a Gary Stue.
Basically. Bad character traits can be ignored when the whole character is cool. See Saitama. Ignoring the fact that he is a flawed character (mad dumb, always late to fights, his brokenness is actually a problem for him) and automatically can't be a Mary Sue/Gary Stu, he's funny and has some good character development. So people don't care about him being OP.
@@genyakozlov1316 I'm not sure where you've been on the internet but a lot of people call goku a gary stu. Or just too overpowered. That's like one of the main criticisms of dragon ball. goku and vegeta overshadow everyone else to the point where the other side characters like krillin, gohan, piccolo, and trunks barely matter.
I remember watching her Steven universe is terrible video and agreeing with her. However, after watching some people talk about the show in a positive light and rewatching her video, I kinda just came to the conclusion that young me (who wasn’t part of the lgbtq+ community at the time) only watched the show for the gem invasion stuff and skipped over most of the town episodes. I’m now pretty sure I didn’t appreciate the show for what it was, and while I could rewatch it with a different view I don’t have any plans to do so in the future.
With these kinds of people, they tip their hand in what they like about the character by what they attack you over the character on. "You don't like Rey cause woman!" means that Lilly's only thing she likes about the character is that Rey is a woman. If Rey was a guy, she'd likely be on the side complaining about the Gary Stu.
TBH, the whole "you don't like something because of X (whether it'd be a character's gender or supposed "conflict" or a story/character being "different")" is nothing really new. You'd see it from fans of SW (both pre-Disney and Disney SW alike), Marvel, Snyder's DCEU, Legend of Korra, etc. They tend to focus on some surface-level aspect and claim it to be deep (going as far as to make up some nonsense or take from third-party materials to fill in the big blanks left by poor storytelling), all the while ignoring the fundamental flaws. It really is a double-standard, especially when they then criticize something else which is as bad as the thing they defend (e.g. SW prequels and sequels fans criticizing Kylo Ren and Anakin respectively when both are bad characters).
I mean, you can like a character for being well-written, but have people dislike a character because of their gender or whatever. Han Solo was going to be a black guy, but they thought audiences would reject him for being black. Nothing about the writing of the character was going to change. Just the fact he was black.
@@StainedGlassLamp People like them because they're well-written characters. The show has a cast of really well-done characters, and they're among them.
I'm genuinely surprised anyone is able to argue with Lily in the comments, last time I stumbled on her channel she curated her comment section to a very noticeable degree.
So I've never read any of Lily's fanfictions and never will, but based on what I've heard from people on CZcams, her stories are filled with Mary Sue. Like, all of her characters are either Mary Sues or Anti-Sues. The main characters do awful things like kidnapping, abuse, pedophilia, and incest, and these actions are either excused or portrayed as good. So this is probably why she defends Mary Sue. because she is a narcissist who is unable to accept that her storytelling isn't the best thing ever.
Another one that I'm surprised Lily Orchard missed, and this is technically cheating here, is Corrin/Kamui from Fire Emblem Fates, I remember back in 2016/17 the entirety of the the Fire Emblem community, went against Corrin for being a guy/girl that could do nothing wrong, and everyone loves him, and everyone that doesn't is either purely evil, or possessed by someone who's purely evil. Hell, last year, people did the exact same thing with Alear from Fire Emblem Engage.
Fates had another character be the “killing blow” just to make Corrin’s hands clean of any bloodshed. Takumi had to possessed by an evil alzhiemer’s riddled dragon to hate Corrin and even then when Corrin “dies” it’s JUST there to establish “Takumi never hated Corrin” which is BULLSHIT. Hell, Hinoka takes Corrin killing half her family and causing irreparable damage to Hoshido as a country with a “it is what it is” mentality. Alear is just comical with the literal worship of being a divine dragon (they’re usually considered gods in the fire emblem world) and it infecting EVERY CUTSCENE with them introducing themselves cause we just HAD to be able to name Alear. Alear makes BEING a divine dragon in a series where they are worshiped lame.
The fact that Lilly put Rey as her third favourite Star wars character is extremly telling. Oh and the kicker she included legends. Kylo ren was her nr 1 hated character witch was basically the only consistantly good part about the sequles. Also Darth Maul was nr 2 most boring even with everything beyond ep 1. Truly s clown take. Oh yeah Lilly. Arthas is irredemable because he was mindcontrolled by frostmourn. Sylvanas isn't irredemable because she didn't have a part of her soul because of frostmourn. Even tough Sylvanas did way worse than Arthas even the very thing that he did to her. Smh.
Did you expect sense or consistency from Lily? She complains about a character not getting enough screen time but then calls episodes that are in depth character explorations of them 'filler episodes' that did nothing.
Use her logic against her and put a mary sues in the WOW story. A cool new shadow elf that become a leader of the horde, heals Sylvana Windrunner, kills a Arthas that somehow returned and everyone loves her.
She actually said that Syndrome from Incredibles did nothing wrong. That he was the most competent character in the story and the best hero since he was able to defeat all the other heroes.
@@KaiserShounen czcams.com/video/GrKh88vMmzc/video.htmlsi=clWKgi1N2NlIZpXz Start from the 7 minutes mark. I just re-watched a piece of it and she said that Syndrome's ends were benevolent and that The Incredibles were incompetent people.
@@avivastudios2311She does realize Syndrome committed GENOCIDE on the supers and going to let the Omnidroid attack the city ON PURPOSE so he can take all the glory, right? Even Mr. Incredible called him out with this line “You mean you killed off real heroes so that you could PRETEND to be one?” How does she missed that?
What I've seen a lot of in the Mary Sue debate is co flating Power Fantasy Characters as Mary Sues. Superman is a classic example. For all extensive purposes, Superman is a complete character. He is already morally upright and has developed his powers and abilities. Yet Superman still struggles, still has narratove stakes and still has to work within the confines of his setting. You also have James Bond who is ostensibly the perfect man. Every guy wants to be him every gal wants to be with him. James Bond does not bend and break the rules of the setting. He doesn't destroy narrative stakes. Out of Character, or Deus Machina moments don't save him. He doesn't just get a super power, or pull out a gadget Q never gave him. While he as a characters doesn't need to grow. He still can be in danger, his story still has narratove stakes. Power Fantasy can be good. Mary Sue is always bad.
25:15 I also wanted to point out an example of an overpower character done right and that is with sunraku from Shangri-La frontier. This is mainly just about people playing video games. The main character is a guy who specializes, completing the most broken incomplete glitchy games in the universe only to succeed at basically vr Elden ring because he has so much experiences with broken mechanics that he’s got good reflexes. But while character is strong he’s never overpowered. Moments in the series were outright loses, and I have to think of clever situations in order to slim by, when he goes up against Raiden, like that, he has to rely on other teammates because he can’t do as much damage as they can, when he plays outside in the main one, he is very skilled and people respect him for it, but he doesn’t always win. He’s antagonist very much so fun because while he is strong in his own way, he’s not absurdly broken. Top that off with a personality that makes you feel like he’s actually a gamer, and you got yourself actual good protagonist. Great video by the way just wanted to point out.
The mary sue seems to be a character that is a product of the mind of the kind of person that do not understand and/or is not aware of the "strugle to the path to mastery". Most people think that someone is talented when they are not aware of what the "talented" person went through to achieve such level of skill over whatever it is, and the writer of the mary sue think like that. This seems like a reasonable explanation to the fact that, more often than not, the mary sue comes atached to distaste of older characters, because they cant see their strugle to grow, and assume people admire them simply because they are man or white or both.
Honestly, I think that kind of mentality can apply not just to Mary Sues/Gary Stus. A writer could have a character struggle but still fail due to something inherently flawed with said character and/or struggle itself. An example could be Shiro Emiya from Fate/Stay Night (at least the anime adaptations) who is shown to struggle somewhat but there are inherent issues with his character that don't make him likable. The same applies to (at least, more recently) Izuku Midoriya from My Hero Academia who does struggle, but his character ultimately falls flat due to his power progression, self-destructive tendencies, and so on (much like Shiro)
To me, the Mary Sue is someone who can't be beat for any reason and comes in 3 flavours. Good: A Mary Sue who's established to be unbeatable and is fun to watch. Bad: A Mary Sue who's established as extremely powerful and sucks all the fun or tension away. Pure: A Mary Sue that breaks the rules for no reason.
@@KaiserShounen. In my experience, sometimes, it's not Just about asking smarter, but someone else being smart enough to listen. Especially in the mlp videos, Lily sounded like someone who's exasperated at their peers for not asking those questions, and claimed only themselves see what's wrong with the full picture.
Gonna be honest here I used to watch Lily years ago and thought that she was someone what was speaking some fact... now that i am older and know proper story telling and has seen the state of the internet and the levels of strawmaning happening. I really don't know how I ever thought anything she was saying credible. God her old Vids were bad.
An example of a character I like who is borderline a Mary Sue. He is named "Saitama" In his anime heroes exist and everything. He does the impossible and breaks his Limiter over the course of 3 years and boom he's the strongest Hero in the world. Wait! Not hero but am. Strongest Man in the world. And the conflict begins. He becomes bored, loses the thrill in life he had before, doesn't pay attention to conversations as easily anymore, easily distracted, Yada Yada Yada. He basically is at his strongest PHYSICALLY but Mentally he's becoming weaker. He can get Serious. He could go from slumping over his shoulder almost loosely wearing his suit that makes him look goofy. To his ENTIRE body outlining everything across the Suit. Showing off his abs, his shoulders, his biceps, his legs. But he rarely gets serious because. What is there left for him to be serious about? Being a hero who does it not for Fortune and fame? Won't that get to him? A interesting Anime that I suggest watching. ESPECIALLY the Manga
@KaiserShounen It is. The action in later in the Manga. Mmmmmm. You'll drool over it. And you would understand us the few who looked at the season 3 announcement and wish the best for the animators who won't be sleeping for a few years
Ignoring Saitama suffering from success of being OP, the reason he isn't a Gary Stu is because he's an idiot. He's always late to fights, causing the first responders to get hurt. He somehow didn't know about the Hero League that ironically was founded because of him and had been doing his thing while gaining no recognition for it. He literally fails the written portion of the Hero exam, causing him to start as a C Rank while Genos was in either A or S Rank. He struggles to find work to actually get his Hero License until Sonic shows up to fight him. And even then, that's only after Sonic starts attacking innocents while the Tank Top guy is lecturing him. Which results in him gaining a reputation for basically killstealing, although he embraces this after the fish King fight so the other Heros don't get disrespected by the populace. For all his raw power, Saitama has little going on in the head, resulting in him doing a significantly worse job than he would if her were at least decently smart. His intelligence is his big flaw that counteracts his physical strength and keeps him from actually being a Gary Stu. The existential crisis also helps to make him an interesting character instead of just a gag.
@espurrseyes42 You're right. Thank you for saying the things I didn't say. For all that amazing strength it's balanced with a not so good intelligence. Just look at the Garou VS Saitama fight. His opinion of Garou's "Absolute Evil" was that he kept on saving people. Even though it was ALL unintentional. Hilarious tho
That whole theory you had at the end about Lily lying and knowing she's full of shit? You might be 100% correct. I recently stumbled across a reupload of one of her now deleted videos called "Little Mary Quite Contrary" from 2015-2016, and while she's still critical of the term's usage, she actually demonstrates an understanding of the problems with these types of characters (I.e. Plot bending to service protagonists). If I can find the video again, I'll send it to you but yeah, she's either gotten significantly dumber or more dishonest since the mid-2010's (my money's on both).
@@periodicpete There's actually two I wanted to send you, the other was what Little Mary was a remake of, being "Mommydagio Equals Alicorns" (which is rather infamous for revealing one of Lily's dirty little secrets but I digress). Hopefully you should find that one just as easily but if not, let me know and I'll send it to you. I think you should about both videos though to get the fuller picture.
@@KaiserShounen. Ever thought about covering the periphery media? Because so fare, Sonic and megaman share both nostalgia critic's ignorance, and a show made by man of action and wildbrain!
There was a Gary Stu in Lord of the Rings: Tom Bombadil. He put on the ring to no ill effect and can basically do anything - usually while singing. There's a reason he's not in the Peter Jackson LOTR.
You're forgetting that in the books that Tom in spite of his great abilities, is a scatterbrain which would have made it really easy for the one ring to get back to saulron if the hobbits decided to give it to Tom.
Jackson movies don't feature talking animals either because they change the entire tone of the story to a dark and epic one, and thus while they are great movies they aren't actually great adaptations of the books, and this isn't a Forrest Gump situation where the unfaithful adaptation is better than the original either. If your critique says Tolkien's favourite character is bad writing then excuse me for not thinking it holds any merit at all. Don't get me wrong, Lord of the Rings isn't perfect, but Tom is definitely not one of its flaws. Really, I would love for people to stop trying to make good stories and just make what they want to make, because all flaws are subjective and there is no such thing as an objectively good story, nor a bad one. There are things you will never enjoy but there is nothing no one will enjoy, and art caters to everyone.
A side character can't really be a Mary Sue especially when they're in the story for one chapter. No matter how good they are they aren't going to be the one to actually resolve the conflict of the story so it probably won't hurt the narrative. They just show up to give some good advice and then they're off.
Like when I want some fun with Mary Sues I just read a bunch of Chinese Manhwa with soap opera level writing, the Chinese sure love Mary Sue soap opera BS. Because sometimes you just wanna watch a train crash in slow motion. Like half of the time all the women other than the Mary Sue are unhinge psychos there to make the Mary Sue look better. I was telling my friend who is 1/4 Chinese about it and he was like "Yeah, no one hates other women more than Chinese Women." That was something I didn't expect to hear
One of, if not the most hated character types is the “super OP young male that is super bland so that self inserting is as easy as possible” The Mary Sue is literally just a female version of that but with an obvious political background.
I am going to place ANYTHING critqueing "CULTURE WAR" as bad faith from this point on. Shad broke it down WELL anyone using "CULTURE WAR" as an argument simply is making a strawman to fight instead of their arguments. Same level as Lily and a BLACK MARK against them PERMANENTLY.
@@KaiserShounen The most you could say is him in Insomniac conveniently getting the perfect power he needs in a situation. Rhino too strong? Venom powers. About to get shot by Roxxon security? Here's some Camo. Getting beaten by Roxxon after he gets kidnapped? Venom Blast. That's about it though, and he has imperfections as a person that causes problems for him.
@@espurrseyes42 Not to mention, you could just say those aspects are just how superheroes tend to awaken their abilities. It's the conventions of the genre. Plus Miles still faces trouble despite all of his abilities.
I'm gonna have to get you on Korra. No she didn't master the elements faster than Aang. She knew how to bend them as a toddler sure, but she didn't master them until after her constant training with White Lotus members (a luxury she has access to as the next Avatar because of the world her predecessor built), and still didn't have Air bending until the end of Book 1, which she struggled with the training of while Aang pretty easily handled and only struggled on the actual bending, which he got by the end of the episode he started training in. She also gets wooped a LOT. Her team doesn't beat those cheaters in the Probending League. She fails to stop the Equalists frequently. Amon specifically gave her lasting trauma even up to Book 3 where she sees his face while being mercury poisoned. She loses access to the knowledge and BS her past lives could give her (which, i don't consider that BS given how Aang on more than one occasion has gotten possessed by a past life, Roku actually fighting on his behalf in that case) when the Light Spirit was destroyed, and was mercury poison at the end of Book 3 going into early Book 4. And all of this is going on in a world that doesn't seem to the Avatar around, especially in Book 3, and while dealing with a shitty Love Triangle subplot between her, Mako, and Asami. It's kinda hard to call her a Mary Sue when she's anything but perfect and is constantly taking Ls. She's not that well-written, but a Mary Sue. She's not Rey, who struggles with next to nothing and doesn't have her flaws, if any, called out.
I think MangaKamen did a better job analyzing Korra’s character when he explained Korra is not a total Mary Sue but she has the traits of a Mary Sue at least from season 1-2.
One interesting different between Aang & Korra is how they initially think about being the Avatar due to their past: _ Aang was a teen & lost all his friends because he's the Avatar & the monks were going to separate him from his adopted father, people was putting pressure on him due to Ozai clearly building up power. Thus he saw it as burden he couldn't wait to get rid off _ Korra was a toddler (hasn't formed any bond beside with her family) & didn't lose anything, she was charmed by all the cool powers. And most importantly she was not pressured but instead pampered: The other Avatar had to go to each countries to learn bending(& the nations themselves), while Korra had teachers coming to her at the Southern Water Tribe instead(we saw her train fire bending at the South Pole & she knew only the very basic knowledge about the Earth Kingdom when she go there in SS3), Tenzin is the only exception(because he's the only Air master that can teach her but he has duties at the Republic City & can't leave for very long, so she had to go to him for training). So she is overly prideful of being the Avatar(she basically built her personality around it) & overconfident of her abilities despite knowing very little about her responsibilities * P/S: Korra did break some rule. For example, she already could use 3 elements before learning it. In TLAB, even if you had the talent, someone has to introduce the basic to you before you can start bending rudimentary(Aang didn't bend anything beside Air until he had basic instruction)
It seems that Lily doesn’t do her research very well on the things she’s reviewing like Baldur’s Gate, World of Warcraft, Avatar, Star Wars and many others.
Writing many kinds of characters can be fun. However Mary Sues are not fun to write about either, because the narrative bends to give them what they want with little to no effort. After all part of the joy of writing is putting yourself in your characters place and imagining what they are going through, and having everything you want gets stale fast cause it means you have nothing to work towards. Even coffee shop A.U.'s have the stress of running a business to keep up with modern day expenses', even if that isn't the focus of the plot. A fun story can become as stressful as the writer wants it without the need to bend the rules of the story.
@@KaiserShounen Speaking from experience, I was 16 or 17 when I wrote my first KR fanfics and the main characters in those were more or less self-insert Gary Stus. Kinda glad I never wrote more than 10 chapters with them.
@@erikbihari3625 And I did. I've learned the severe problems with those fanfics. Over many years, I've made more mistakes with writing, have recognized them, and am trying to take steps to tell better stories to the best of my abilities. Just saying I'm glad I never did more (with those particular fanfics I've mentioned) because I probably wouldn't have improved otherwise.
i always expect too much from lily orchard, i saw the mary sue video's title and thought she was going to talk about how the term originates from fanfiction and take a "cringe culture is dead" approach and discuss how mary sue ocs in fanfiction are harmless fun at the end of the day and people tend to blow things way out of proportion when it comes to how people write their characters. but i forgot this is lily orchard we're talking about and once again got bombarded with at least 60 of the worst takes i've ever heard a human being make
10:31 and let’s remind the audience that the starring moment of “be a man” wasn’t Mulan getting better but EVERYONE getting better. Mulan was just the smoking gun that started the domino effect on everyone’s improvement, the shining light proving that everyone can get better so everyone stepped up to the challenge allowing Mulan to earn the respect of even her comrades that initially had beef with her and eventually became some of her best friends/ally’s.
for me a Gary/merry sue is a Character who is borderline perfect in almost every single way, makes no mistakes or if they makes mistakes they don't suffer any real consequences from them, they bend or brake the rules of there established setting on a regular basis. overpowered with very little rhyme or reason outside of there their special. never undergo any change or character character development because there perfect the way they are, and they are popular and well loved even though there is no reason given or shown why they are liked. can you have a character who is borderline perfect? you sure can. the anime Haven't You Heard? I'm Sakamoto had that as it's plot, with characters reacting to how borderline prefect Sakamoto is. can you have a character that beads or brakes rules of an established setting? yes. many battle shounens do have characters that do bend or brake rules to a certain degree, because there the exception that proves the rule. can you have a character that is overpowered? yes and you even tell many interesting story with an overpowered character, for example tell the story about how there power isolates them from human society. on it's own having a character with these aspects is fine. however what really makes a character a gary/merry sue for me is that they have no depth to them or not much of a personality outside of "Holy shit look how powerful they are"
Wait till Lily orchard hears about warhammer 40k. She's gonna go ballistic. She's not gonna handle the grimdark of this franchise. And she's gonna call humans the bad guys when really they are in the right for what their doing. Also blame Erebus.
Lily wants to say we're wrong for calling out women written poorly by men, yet also call the film industry sexist. If she actually cared she'd argue the reason these characters are Mary Sues is because of sexism. She doesn't care about anything but being a toxic hipster.
Watching your video was quite the fun, Kaiser. Both you and Pete had put a lot of effort in the video. And I meant a lot by stating, why I haven't watched SAO. And here I thought, that Issei from Highschool DxD was a Gary Stue, majorly because he is not only overpowered, but also gets powerups by thinking of touching boobs. If I still have to choose, I'd hate Kirito more, because he is not a character. At least with Issei, they tried to do something. And one of the stuff I heard about Highschool DxD, is that it is more than just story, filled with boobs.
When u said breaks the plot I was about to comment Korra, mostly cause the avatar state, cause most people can look at the learning the element thing if it changes the story in a funny way, but as they kept stacking feats that shouldn't be possible while trying to make it sound valid made people look back into stuff like the start again
Naofumi is a Gary Stu? But he goes through literal hell throughout season one. He gets his most powerful abilities because he thinks he's losing everything. He hurts those he loves while using this power and can only get out of berserker mode when his closest loved one puts herself in danger and realizes his mistakes. He's flawed as hell.
Actual research,every appropriate amount of information,appealing presentation,working comedy. My friend, just earned yourself a new subscriber! How you so good for an upstart?
Excellent video. You two did an excellent job with good references and counterpoints. I’ve heard of Lili Orchard but never checked out her content. I don’t plan to. She’s a terminally online ideologue far as I am concerned. Onto the video, I loved how you framed the Mary/ Gary Stu argument as being a narrative problem as much as character. When you have a character who doesn’t face any significant and meaningful(both are important) pushback and obstacles you deprive them of a chance to learn and grow. Your point about a lot of bad Isekai doing this is also great to see. It’s why I love series like Mushoku Tensei and Re;Zero because they do pose significant obstacles for their main characters that aren’t easily solved. And why someone like Rey and Korra are bad. And as someone working on my own book, this kind of advice Lili is spotting is bad. Bad media and why we go after it can be useful for aspiring writers to take note of not what to do. To strive to put in the thought, care and effort into their craft when making a story. Because often the most well regarded pieces of media are those where the authors do put in the time and thought into it. It’s why I can happily say I love FullMetal Alchemist. Hiromu Arakawa put in the research and effort into her story and characters and there’s a reason why it’s still beloved decades later.
My God, the comments on the original vvid. I lost braincells. It's full of people who focus on the spectacle of a character rather than the reason people get invested: good writing. Wouldn't be surprised if most of them are Kirito fans.
Got to say great video but I have an issue about Kirito. He doesn't fit being a Mary/Gary. To start he isn't some genius level programmer. It's never stated or shown to be the case. We do know that he has built his own computer and was a beta tester which neither would require high level programming. Kirito is indeed a skilled player but also so are people like Asuna who are just as good as him. All the women don't pine for him. By the end of the Aincrad arc he's married to Asuna. None of the girls had a crush on him except for Liz but she quickly stopped after seeing him with Asuna. As for Suguha his cousin there's missing context. First she didn't know the player was her cousin/brother since it was 2 years after what happened in SAO. After she finds out the player was Kirito she quickly stops after her "romantic" feelings became sibling feelings. They have a normal sibling relationship. He didn't hack into a complex AI. Yui was an admin that gave Kirito access to the game files where He copied Yui's code into an Item and the copying that to his personal computer. Blocking Bullets is a mix of factors. His Kendo training did help but also he has good reaction speed plus like all vet SAO players their stats were carried over to GGO. The sword he uses the Photon Sword which is designed to interact with bullet lines which helps him defect bullets. There's a lot of game mechanics that go into Kirito defecting bullets. Kirito loses his 1st fight with Kayaba with their 2nd fight barely being a draw. Kirito is nearly killed by Kuradeel being saved by Asuna. Those are a few fights that come mind with him losing major fights. He never willed himself to live in a death game. It was established early on that there's a delay in dying in the game and the headset killing you. Not including the fact it was always shown you fade away slowly which gives you time. Kirito was hit with an adrenaline before he died giving him that final strength to make the fight a draw. This is no different than any other story where they do this.
Gundam Seed is good? Admittedly, I haven't watched it, but I got my doubts. Anyway, as as guy who has read fanfics since I was a wee lad of 12, I can tell you there is A LOT of OCs (male and female alike--sometimes Japanese-ish) who hog the spotlight from the established characters. Sometimes, they're not even Mary Sues/Gary Stus, they're just badly written. Like you've said in the beginning, this stuff here is nothing new. In fact, the arguments supporting Mary Sues could be used for non-Mary Sue/Gary Stu characters who are just as bad, e.g. Bayformers' Optimus Prime, Snyder's Superman (and maybe the DCEU characters in general), etc. Not helped that favoritism can still exist for these characters. And the less I say about SW (pre-Disney and Disney alike), the better.
Your examples are bad, because at least bay-verse optimus doesn't bend the story to his will or get unnecessary wins, and snyder should've stuck to gahool, as he's really good at least that! Right everyone? Kaiser?
Liked that you played Honoo no Sadame. I love Chirico, but with a bad writer he could have easily ended up as a Marty Stu but instead of ending up as a woobie and falling into the Sympathetic Sue trope he remained resilient and became a determinator
Very nice discussion. I probably like Lily Orchard’s content more than most people here but this critique is on point and is one of the most concise and clear definitions I have seen on the topic of Mary Sues.
I've heard it best that "Mary Sue" isn't some kind of character description or character specific trope, it’s a *writing* flaw. In bare bones it’s critical of how the writer is doing their job. Not any kind of weird judgment of actions made by a non-existent human that isn't and will never be sentient beyond their writer. Lily dumb. And she really doesn’t grapple with the concept that men are writing some of these Hollywood Sue characters, huh. You'd really think that would've been a topic for a good ol' rant about her f-ed up ideas. Can totally see her doing a "if you aren't x gender/other thing, then how dare you write them as the leads in your stuff"...
Is he a gary stu if he gets everything wrong, fails his personal objectives regardless? Then the world just makes his mistake just WORK in a way HE DOESN'T WANT?
@@snintendog Yes. A story bending itself backwards in order to make a character seem great is how I'd describe a Mary Sue in the first place. The character's own interests aren't necessarily a factor.
Thank you all for enjoying the video. Me and Pete had a lot of fun working on it. That said, please do not harass Lily, Misgender her, or make transphobic comments. Really appreciate it.
well just so you know lily did make Stockholm by lily orchard look it up itll be a blast for ya
Oh Im familiar with shit relating to that crap.@@darkman452
*KEEP BEING AWESOME*
@@KaiserShounen can ask what did ment with this part 6:31 ?
@@dedalionarts6077 Was there something that confused you there? I said that Shadversity called the film feminist propaganda.
I find it weird that Lily considers "being black" as something people use to label a character a Mary sue.
She sees racism where there is none and now she looks racist.
Weirdly telling, IMO.
Ironically, I don’t even think she’s necessarily wrong, more like Lily’s just telling a half truth with that point. I’ve seen genuinely racist people hate on black characters for simply being black, but call them Mary Sues for it? That I have yet to see.
@kyleinthejar6829 yeah, I don't think that's as common as Lily thinks it is.
Uh, haha, *WHAT.* I've literally never seen a race as a reason to call someone a Mary Sue. Literally never have seen that, what a hot take. People usually use the character getting everything they want, they don't have any real conflict, everyone usually loves them, and distorts reality to do all the above to define a Mary Sue, not...their race lol.
Llily Orchard thinking that is wacky, what even. Girl is talking about how the trope is sexist but then randomly made it about race?
"Be Media Literate or draw 25"
Lily: *Draws the whole deck and buys 25 more decks*
Lily Orchard somehow lost a shadow boxing fight with herself, an imaginary opponent she made up, and with any random opponent that enters the ring for fun, all at once.
I don't know if that's impressive, sad, or hilarious. So to compromise, let's say it's all three.
"I am bleeding, making me the Victor!"
-Lily after jobbing to Her schizophrenia
It's like watching the Black Knight from Monty Python and the Holy Grail dismember himself and say he's won.
Any one of those three make me laugh
@@KaiserShounen. Honestly, i'd laugh too, if it wasn't so pathetic. You"download"?
@@KaiserShounen
You should do a response to Lilly's Star Wars videos and her views/opinions on the Sith/dark side of the force
Honestly Lilly's thoughts on Star wars is quite... Interesting to say the least. She uses a lot of examples from the KOTOR games of sith not being evil due to the design of those games around player choice and how they choose to play as a Sith. The choices in the old Republic for the dark side being somewhat less evil than you would expect for a Sith.
Guys i think the problem is Lily thinks "I like it so it's good, i don't like this so it bad" and then tries to explain her logic when there is none. And she does that by making shit up
Agreed. Especially when you look at what she thinks is bad and her arguments for such. *Cough- Steven Universe- *cough *
@@That_1GayTheaterKid a moment of silence for Rebecca Sugar who dealt with right-wingers calling SU propaganda and then later left-wingers for doing the same thing somehow.
I mean, tbh, most people are this way. You see many people defend male Mary Sues because they happen to like them and its a power fantasy thats appealing to them.
@@shizachan8421 tbf you can have an overpowered character and still have a compelling plot. Elsa is arguably OP but what makes her interesting is her powers hinge on her emotions which are unstable - the more emotional she is, the more her powers grow uncontrollable, and her arc is about learning to rely on people who care about her. Most people write off Mary Sues because they tend to be uninteresting seeing as their powers can just fix any conflict because the conflict can develop or influence the plot in any way. I can immediately think of SAO's Kirito where the plot itself bends itself backwards for his sake when it's supposed to be the other way around.
@@randompromises1038 I agree, but I also think that there is quite the difference between an overpowered character and a Mary Sue. I thinke ven more than Elsa wie have Superman, who is probably one of the most overpowered super heroes in comics history. But what makes him compelling is how his powers are used to convey his inner godness and heroism and the best Superman Stories are those, that focus on the fact that what makes him special are not his superpowers, but the innate goodness and kindness of Clark Kent, his best moments are quite small acts of him being more akin to a guardian angel, who will show up in your hour of need and who can resolve situations without relying on his powers.
A Mary Sue on the other hand is overpowered to convey a very self-serving power fantasy, with the plot and the characters surrounding them bending over backwards to enable this power fantasy. Kirito like you said is one of the most infamous examples of that, but I also think that it shows how easily audiences are able to excuse this in a male character. SAO was well received and had good reviews, it wasn't really until DigiNees review of SAO that the public opinion turned against it and even there I think, that it was really only possible because Kirits framing as a Black Swordsman commited a cardinal sin. But we also see how animes that are worse than SAO actually get a pass. Rising of the Shield Hero absolutely got a pass for political reasons, because of the whole fake rape accusation drama that gave it a reputation of being anti-woke and make culture warriors jump into its defense.
There was an episode of Kamen Rider Kuuga with a scene that used Lily's idea of a Mary Sue, someone giving en enemy a one-sided beatdown, and it worked because it was played for horror. The titular character was so enraged by a villain heartlessly murdering dozens of high school students for a sick game, he outright snapped and ruthlessly beat up the villain so much, right before he killed him, the villain was trying to run away from the hero.
This scene works because it while it was cathartic to see this child murderer get his comeuppance, it also served as a shocking moment highlighting just how dangerous Kuuga himself is when he isn't fighting for justice is, in addition to contributing to the show's central theme about the cycle of violence. Yes, Kuuga easily killed the villain, but it was because he was in a dark state of mind that is very concerning to see from someone who is usually an optimist that fights for everyone's smiles.
Lily is someone who believes that any problem can be solved with violence, which is an idea that is factually incorrect, both from a writing standpoint and a real world standpoint. Then again, this is the same person who's Star Wars OC is more than willing to murder whoever gets in her way, and is supposed to be the good guy.
Moral of the story: Kamen Rider Kuuga is peak fiction.
Godai's overpowered aspects enhanced the story whereas those like Captain Marvel make it worse. But as far as Lily is concerned, both of these characters are the same, so its ok.
An utterly worthless sentiment.
Basically in a nutshell, Lily thinks the genocide route in Undertale is the ¨True Ending¨ lol and anyone who argues otherwise are somehow supporters of that one dead evil german man with a tiny mustache.
@@Flowermations Supporting genocide in stories? Must've gotten that from the SW prequels.
I remember one video she made where she basically said, "If you don't think violence is the solution, then kindly fuck off from the grown-ups table."
She lacks self-awareness so much that cannot see how childish that is.
Ah, a cultured Kuuga enjoyer I see.
I really hate the "Everyone I dislike or disagree with is a incel/neckbeard/pick me/basement dweller without exception and only I and the people who agree with me have the correct opinions and are capable of thinking beyond (insert group bad)" mentality, like it somehow automatically dismisses or disproves any and all points the other side has made. Even a broken clock is right twice a day..
I swear, in this case some people will dismiss you as clinically insane for even trying to be neutral toward or even understand Shad in order to present in good faith.
Well at least unlike Lily, im willing to give people a chance to prove me wrong, even if they will disagree in the end
@@KaiserShounen. Ironically, the video that Lily Orchard is ashamed of making, has better points about why korra sucks then recent videos!😂
Oh trust me, it gets even worse when you directly address Lily’s talking points. She’ll literally call you every label under the sun just because you point out something that she’s objectively wrong about. You call her out for basically making up an enemy to shadow box against, and she’ll say you’re only criticising her because she’s trans and you’re transphobic. She has no actual leg to stand on so she has to pick something out of the imaginary bubble in her head in order to deflect from actually responding to any and all criticism.
My definition of a Mary Sue is simple: While a normal character is shaped around the story, a Mary Sue shapes the story around her.
Honestly jawdropping the amount of vitriol lily puts into nearly every sentence. Like wow.
Just full of spite
Seriously. Its genuinely uncomfortable how much *venom* she packs into every sentence.
Right? I remember I saw her vid on The Coffin of Andy and Leyley and couldn't watch it for more than 2 minutes because of how staggeringly venomous every line she said was. I didn't even get to her actual point.
I have no clue who tf is supposed to enjoy this content apart from literal demons who feed off negativity.
I get that people tend to misuse Mary Sue a lot when it comes to certain female characters, but that doesn't suddenly make the term invalid when it's necessary. There are female characters that perfectly fit that description, and denying that feels like pure cope from fans of those characters of types of characters.
When has the term Mary sue been misused?
@@jacobcain1352 Usually the worst examples are when a female character is more competent than a lot of other characters, even when they explain why they are competent thanks to being trained or having a skill that's unique to them alone like the main character from Prey or Hazel from the new FOP show.
@@kingbash6466 I wouldn’t be surprised if thats the case. I don’t really know enough about the examples given to really argue either point. But maybe you can answer some questions I have about prey. My first question is does she show the predator that she’s a worthy opponent? Predators only fight worthy opponents. My second question is how in the hell does she kill it in the first place?
Lilly gets everything wrong. Like she thinks a zombie being raised from the dead is a rape scene, because the necromancer didn't get consent.
That's the zombie elf gal her wife keeps on drawing.
Please tell me you're joking, cause ain't no way. I don't wanna believe people can be that dumb.
@@TrueReverse74 Nope its real. The death knight didnt even like her. He raised her because she was annoying and he was only ever in love for Jaina.
Btw Sylvanas also raises people to the dead after she gets her free will back.
She's complemented by a dread lord for being ruthless.
Few videos that I watched from her channel before never watching her again due to her being spiteful asshole who is full of stupid takes
(Why is the main villian of LoK s1 holds Korra's arms when fighting her in a CQC enviroment?They must be sexist and racist.
I don't know Lily, maybe because he is trying to defeat her by preventing her main method of bending because outside of that waterbending chick from s3 everybody uses their arms to bend the ELEMENTS!)
I wondered why she hated the protaginst of Warcraft3 who later became tragic villian besides him being straight white dude whos hair is blonde.Honestly I should've seen this coming due to hers personality.
@@Hot_SpicyGrill My god... it's such a sad line of thinking.
i wondered wth you were talking about but i see you were actually referring to her video about arthas. that was so off to me. because couple of victims of abuse and rape have said that it's an allegory for rape automaticallyy that means that it is? torture can't just be torture? a villain torturing his adversary with a fate worse than death (which is a common trope) is automatically a rape allegory? im sorry to those people but you're wrong. in fact it only honestly hurts your "case" worse by trying to liken things that are "similar" to rape as being exactly like rape.
Here's the thing people don't realize, there is no such this as a "semi mary sue" or a "half mary sue" or a "partial mary sue". There's no spectrum between not being a mary sue and being one. It's just either a character is a mary sue or not, and a character doesn't have to uber-powerful to be one. Like you said, Superman or Saitama aren't mary sues because their stories don't revolve around them to an excessive degree, they don't just have what they need to fix their problems.
Rey is able use the force like a Jedi master without any prior training and she's as powerful/skilled as she needs to be to not fail, unlike Luke Skywalker which Reytards mistakenly call a mary sue. Simply saying Rey is a relative of Palpatine or Obi-Wan doesn't fix her issues. The narrative doesn't want Rey to suffer consequences and she always overshadows characters fans care about.
"Mary sues are just a word dudebros use to hate women" would be a compelling argument!
....If it wasn't for that fact that if you knew a tinge of anime, you'd know that "Overpowered guy that's so good at everything and gets all the gurls" is such a hyper-scrutinized and criticized trope in animanga (so bad it turned alot of people off on the isekai genre; myself included)
It's almost like people just don't like characters who have everything because they're so great and awesome and stuff
There IS a bit of sexism to it tho, since you’ll see ppl vehemently hate Mary sues. But Gary sues are defended as being childhood self insert power fantasies that are harmless.
Theres def vitriol, but its a touch less. But it’s not about Mary Sues or Gary stus, It’s cuz it’s a girl’s interest and not boy’s. So self insert fantasies for girls are bad but self insert fantasies for boys are more acceptable.
@@ma.2089
1. I literally JUST mentioned how people have been vocally against Gary sues
2. I never denied there WASNT sexism; just that people use that as a scapegoat to deflect criticism
It's easier to say that your opposition just hates women than to actually listen to the fair critiques they have
For the record I don't believe any of that "Erhm woke!!!" crap. I judge a piece of media for what it is; if it's good it's good, if it's bad it's bad
There is no ulterior motive like some dudebros think there is.
@@ma.2089 Don't a lot of people hate Kirito and prefer an abridged version of him?
@@jzbelay yes and the reason for it is well it's abridged version so
I mean, Goku doesn't get nearly as much flack for being a Gary Stu as some female character get, but it is something that is a problem when writing any character.
17:35 Please do PROTAGONIST CENTERED MORALITY
I hate that trope so much
It was the vibes Miraculous Ladybug gave me lol
@@nevaehhamilton3493 facts
@@marqusmedina5983 Star Vs. and RWBY fit the bill too. A lot of Korean webcomics call victim to it as well.
@@ma.2089 facts
A good candidate would be RWBY or a good chunk of CW shows.
I find it rich how Superman is apparently a Gary Stu when a core part of his character is that he is vulnerable, both physically and emotionally.
He was back in the daybut comics have an awkward and invasive history.
The thing with Clark is that he has all that power but underneath it all he’s still just a guy, the type of guy that would stop and help you fix your car or spends hours with a person who wants to hurt themselves.
Superman's real problem re: power is how ridiculous the scaling has to get for a villain to pose a physical threat to him; if anything, the 'being a good, responsible citizen despite this crazy level of power throwing that out of whack' angle works better for that reason.
And heck, in the DCAU, he's not that over powered as opponents like Shazam, Brainiac, Darkseid etc. have landed some blows on him.
@@heywoodjablome5380 even the "No one is a threat to him" isnt true. Most of Supe's rogues gallary has been able to toss him around.
Terrible Writing Advice has also done a sequel video on "how not to write a Mary Sue" where he details that his definition nowadays is "a character that hurts a story through excessive favouritism from the author". I think that's a useful definition as well, especially when he points out that many traits are only symptoms, not the disease itself.
When leftist commentators argue that certain characters are a product of "capitalism poisoning feminism" as Lily put it, they're not mad about minority characters being competent, they're complaining about studios having a very narrow view of how those minorities can succeed. Mary Sue characters push a very individualistic version of what it means to be competent: winning the day all on your own without struggling. But that's not realistic. It reinforces the standards for members of these groups to be exceptional. Power fantasy can be fun, but if social commentary or empowerment is the goal you need characters that face their struggles in a more realistic way.
Another good quote about Mary Sues:
"Reading a story about a Mary Sue is like reading about a hero whose reached the end of their journey. Or beginning the story where it should end."
Except without the humor and introspective nature of One Punch Man.
Lilly wrote Stockholm.
That's all the reason to not take her seriously on anything.
What's Stockholm?
Don't read it.
No, really.
Don't read it.
For anyone who’s deadly curious, Stockholm is a My Little Pony fan fiction (which Lily admitted to writing in the past and is now desperate to distance herself from it) which consists of a whole lot of incest, pedophilia, grooming and any other degenerate filth you can think of. Most of the plot consists of a mentally deranged Rainbow Dash taking advantage of and grooming her own family member. I haven’t properly read it myself (thank fuck for that), but definitely do not go and seek it out, it’s fucking horrid that this was ever even conceived in the first place 🪦
Can you at least give me a TL;DR version of what it is. I'm honestly too lazy to even look it up myself 😅
@@DSmith3279 I can give you the barest of bones: My little pony but rainbow dash is a child molester, twilight is abusive to her oc wife that was the MC of a mlp fangame where you colonise ponyville and can see pony cp and pony incest. other things in the fic are incest between sweetie bell and rarity, the cutiemark crusaders shame one of their own for getting molested, written out scenes of children engaging in sexual activities with other children and adults, excusing domestic violence and encouraging it to continue.
there are also other fics in this series of fanfiction. one which is mlp lolita but the pedo groomer wins mostly.
there's more shitty things in her fics outside stockholm. none I'd recommend reading, she's not a good writer she's just a interesting one (in seeing a dumpster fire).
I'd faster recommend you read Mad K in front of your mother, out loud. and trust me: that won't end well either
@@DSmith3279 it's a fic where rainbowdash from my little pony has a penis and rapes the child character scootaloo. The story justifies this and the two end the story in a romantic relationship.
This is the TLDR, I couldn't begin to talk about every messed up part without taking up like 5 comments
@@DSmith3279It's a My Little Pony fanfic with tons of messed up stuff like ped@philia and inc@st, at least I think
I could write a book about what Lily doesn't understand.
If it's about what Lily Orchard doesn't understand, then people will be able to see that book from space.
What’s the name of the book?
@@samflood5631 "Lily: The Human Enigma"
At this point I'm convinced that Lily is rage baiting and considers any publicity to be good publicity. To me it feels like there's almost no other way around it.
It absolutely is just rage/troll bait.
Orchard squandered any chance of being a halfway decent media critic after MLP Friendship is Magic went off the air and can only rely on deliberately pissing off huge fandoms for popular cartoons just for clicks and profit.
@@anneoneal3865 Lily written ped0phile MLP hellfics
Well her CZcams days are numbered, then. People only entertain that stuff for so long, unless you're ridiculously popular on the platform, and Lily doesn't even have half a million subs.
You'd think Lily would have a better idea of what a Mary/gary stu is if shes doesn't spend 80% of her time only watching Steven Universe and my little pony lol
23:51 What I love most about this is that not only does he do this to revive his adopted daughter (the game's administrative AI in the form of a mob) but ... bro could have freed everyone from the game, or atleast try to. The narrative just completely ignores that possibility and nothing ever truly comes out of their relationship with their daughter until the NEXT season.
"Kill your darlings, kill your darlings, even when it breaks your egocentric little scribbler's heart, kill your darlings." -Steven King, while not intentional this is a great way not to write a Mary Sue.
After watching this video, I really question how Lily Orchid even has gotten this far in her youtube channel and still doesn't know what the "mary sue" discourse even means. It really stems from how the writers are so incompetent for making the characters we (as the audience) could root for and emphasize with. Instead, they make the characters tamper with in order for the plot to work for THEM. This robs any potential stakes or conflict off of the story, hence the term "Mary Sue." Do you see why Mary Sues don't fundamentally work in a story, Lily???
A lot of people intentionally misidentify the term 'Mary Sue' in order to dismiss criticism of their pet characters or their own bad writing. Whether somebody is doing so out of malice or ignorance varies on the person (and is usually a combination of both). A lot of times when somebody defends the Mary Sue, you'll find that they're basically just trying to shut up criticism: "Mary Sue is a sexist term, therefore the only reason you don't like the character/story is because you're sexist, therefore anything else you might say is also because you're just sexist, therefore my character is actually great."
I think this video was published around the time Lily was working on her fanfic The Sith Resurgence, where her OC (a Dark Lady of the Sith who is the greatest Force user in the galaxy and has the coolest ship and is a super badass but also a precious blossom who has to be protected from big meanie-heads like Leia and pretty much wins the war against the First Order singlehandedly and becomes the new galactic leader and also marries Rey and and and) was accused of being a Mary Sue. You can probably figure out if this video had an ulterior motive.
@MmeCShadow Yeah, after looking into her cringy self insert based on the Star Wars. I can finally confirm this is just pure PROJECTION at its finest 👌
@@MmeCShadow TBH, the asinine reaction of "Oh, my character isn't such-and-such and is in fact great" can apply to beyond Mary Sues/Gary Stus. You'd be surprised how many have similar attitudes when defending Snyder's Superman, Anakin Skywalker from the PT and Kylo Ren from the sequels (both of whom were "conflicted" while committing mass murders/genocide with little-to-no redeeming qualities), and (of course) even RWBY characters. It's this cultist-like mentality that needs to purged from fandoms.
@@MmeCShadow Fuck me, she REALLY DID THAT?!
Yes she did@@gabrielcancelado2490
Lily's right that Mary Sues are fun when it's talking about OCs in fandom spaces. Kids making their OC be Princess Moonbeam Glitter is okay. It's fun. Whatever. It's an actual problem in real media. But she has it ass-backwards where she thinks Mary Sue is a term that's more acceptable to criticize children's OCs than real characters
The more I think about Mary Sue's the more I've come to the conclusion is that the difference between a competent overpowered character and a Mary Sue is the actions of the other characters in the story.
James Bond is probably my favourite example of a character who meets most definitions of Mary Sue but nobody hates. He's a total badass, he's smart, charming, good at everything, he always gets the girl, everyone likes him. But I've never really heard anyone call him a Sue, because well, setting aside how unrealistically good he is at everything, we do actually like him because he's well written.
On the other hand Rey is probably the only big motion picture character who fits every definition of the Mary Sue. Especially if you consider the sequels as fanfiction of the original movies. We have a character insert who overshadows every other character in the story to a infuriating degree. In the Force Awakens she flies the Millenium Falcon better than Han Solo, prior to The Last Jedi Luke was the embodiment of hope, Anakin was the chosen one who would defeat the sith, but the Rise of Skywalker takes that away.
And that's why I don't have a problem with hypercompetent characters like James Bond but do have one with characters like Rey. The writers of the sequel trilogy were so hellbent on making Rey the best they literally had to spit on the most beloved characters of the original trilogy. They decided to shit on Han, Luke and Anakin in order to make Rey look good by comparison. The original Mary Sue was much the same way, she was more logical than Spock, a better leader then Kirk, a better doctor then McCoy.
If your only way of making a character look good is by making other characters look bad, your writing is terrible. And to me that's the difference between Mary Sue's and well written OP characters.
I think something to note about James Bond is that there were times he was tricked or nearly got done in too, from my limited knowledge of the character. He was fallible. He wasn't perfect.
The thing with Bond and other similar characters is that they have to work and suffer for their success, they have q history and rich experience that lead them to being badasses. And Bond isn't the best at literally everything, for example lots of his success relies on gadgets made and designed by other people, so while Bond is overpowered, he doesn't overshadows other characters in their expert sphere
@@LordTyphAnd Rey is perfect? She spends most of the movies doubting herself and the last one almost falling to the dark side. Just because you think they didn't take it far enough doesn't mean it didn't happen. If she beat Palpatine without Ben's help I would see where people are coming from but that's not what happened. Anakin won a podrace and took out a space station as a todler, the Force can help you do a lot of things.
Let's talk about Luke. In the first movie he has no agency. He says he wants to join the resistance but that doesn't play a role in the actual story as he never gets a choice. He gets attacked, is saved by Obi Wan, says he can't leave his uncle, and returns to his farm to find his family murdered, which means he has no choice but go with Obi Wan. They get on the Death Star by mistake, they escape to a planet about to be destroyed, and then he saves the day not because he choose to do so but because the narrative forced him to do so or die, never once did he have the option to escape, only Solo gets that.
In the next movies he gets agency but now everything he does is correct. Sure, he got beaten for not finishing his training, but otherwise his friends would have died, and maybe he left his friends to fight the last battle all alone and went ham on his dad thus almost giving in to the darkness but if anything went differently it's possible Vader wouldn't redeem himself.
I won't even mention Jabba's palace where every other character goes in to save Solo yet gets captured only making the situation worse only for Luke to go in and solve everything himself by brute Force with even Leia strangling Jabba only being possible because he distracted the guards.
I don't much like the original trilogy.
Really, even if Rey was Mery or Anakin was a Gary I would not care because I don't actually believe in bad writing. I either like something or I don't, and if I liked Luke I would not care about any of the above, I just think he's a wet blanket of a protagonist, thus any problem with him I notice gets exaggerated in my mind, which is I believe what actually happened to Rey for many people, because even though I am perfectly okay with Mary Sues, I still don't see it for Rey.
One Punch Man and Mob are satire of other anime and superhero protagonists, but if they're satire that means the thing they are satirising actually happens even if to a lesser extent, right? For example, Goku.
Nappa kills almost the entire cast? Goku comes in and doesn't even struggle, in fact he only struggles against Vegita who is even stronger than the one who beat the entire cast. Racoome? the same story. The rest of the cast can barely make Frieza feel pain? He makes Frieza take the form he never used before just to compete with him.
He got Super Sayan, a form Vegeta tried so hard to achieve, from a bout of righteous anger for his friend dying, which while satisfying narratively satisfying to show caring about people makes you stronger than being out only for yourself still can be called unearned, and by the time he gets to Super Sayan 3 he can just achieve the form off screen because the narrative is no longer interested in how he gets the forms no one else can, with the reason this form is only possible to sustain if you're dead being more of a handwave.
There is a reason "can he beat Goku" is a meme, yet no one calls him a Gary Stue.
Basically. Bad character traits can be ignored when the whole character is cool.
See Saitama. Ignoring the fact that he is a flawed character (mad dumb, always late to fights, his brokenness is actually a problem for him) and automatically can't be a Mary Sue/Gary Stu, he's funny and has some good character development. So people don't care about him being OP.
@@genyakozlov1316 I'm not sure where you've been on the internet but a lot of people call goku a gary stu. Or just too overpowered. That's like one of the main criticisms of dragon ball. goku and vegeta overshadow everyone else to the point where the other side characters like krillin, gohan, piccolo, and trunks barely matter.
Can’t believe I used to watch Lily and took her seriously. Thing is, she sounds so confident that it’s almost convincing.
I remember watching her Steven universe is terrible video and agreeing with her. However, after watching some people talk about the show in a positive light and rewatching her video, I kinda just came to the conclusion that young me (who wasn’t part of the lgbtq+ community at the time) only watched the show for the gem invasion stuff and skipped over most of the town episodes. I’m now pretty sure I didn’t appreciate the show for what it was, and while I could rewatch it with a different view I don’t have any plans to do so in the future.
With these kinds of people, they tip their hand in what they like about the character by what they attack you over the character on. "You don't like Rey cause woman!" means that Lilly's only thing she likes about the character is that Rey is a woman. If Rey was a guy, she'd likely be on the side complaining about the Gary Stu.
TBH, the whole "you don't like something because of X (whether it'd be a character's gender or supposed "conflict" or a story/character being "different")" is nothing really new. You'd see it from fans of SW (both pre-Disney and Disney SW alike), Marvel, Snyder's DCEU, Legend of Korra, etc. They tend to focus on some surface-level aspect and claim it to be deep (going as far as to make up some nonsense or take from third-party materials to fill in the big blanks left by poor storytelling), all the while ignoring the fundamental flaws. It really is a double-standard, especially when they then criticize something else which is as bad as the thing they defend (e.g. SW prequels and sequels fans criticizing Kylo Ren and Anakin respectively when both are bad characters).
I mean, you can like a character for being well-written, but have people dislike a character because of their gender or whatever. Han Solo was going to be a black guy, but they thought audiences would reject him for being black. Nothing about the writing of the character was going to change. Just the fact he was black.
Lily has also said this about a show called The Owl House "People only like Amity and Hunter because they're white,"
Like... Bruh...
@@StainedGlassLamp People like them because they're well-written characters. The show has a cast of really well-done characters, and they're among them.
@@EliasJWhite Exactly
I'm genuinely surprised anyone is able to argue with Lily in the comments, last time I stumbled on her channel she curated her comment section to a very noticeable degree.
She still does
Not only is she a horrible person, she's incredibly incompetent
So I've never read any of Lily's fanfictions and never will, but based on what I've heard from people on CZcams, her stories are filled with Mary Sue. Like, all of her characters are either Mary Sues or Anti-Sues. The main characters do awful things like kidnapping, abuse, pedophilia, and incest, and these actions are either excused or portrayed as good. So this is probably why she defends Mary Sue. because she is a narcissist who is unable to accept that her storytelling isn't the best thing ever.
Another one that I'm surprised Lily Orchard missed, and this is technically cheating here, is Corrin/Kamui from Fire Emblem Fates, I remember back in 2016/17 the entirety of the the Fire Emblem community, went against Corrin for being a guy/girl that could do nothing wrong, and everyone loves him, and everyone that doesn't is either purely evil, or possessed by someone who's purely evil.
Hell, last year, people did the exact same thing with Alear from Fire Emblem Engage.
Demon Soul Rape is a common trope to make good characters oppose the party because they couldn't possibly just have a difference in principles.
THAT NAIVE CODDLED DENSE ASS MFER!
Fates had another character be the “killing blow” just to make Corrin’s hands clean of any bloodshed. Takumi had to possessed by an evil alzhiemer’s riddled dragon to hate Corrin and even then when Corrin “dies” it’s JUST there to establish “Takumi never hated Corrin” which is BULLSHIT. Hell, Hinoka takes Corrin killing half her family and causing irreparable damage to Hoshido as a country with a “it is what it is” mentality.
Alear is just comical with the literal worship of being a divine dragon (they’re usually considered gods in the fire emblem world) and it infecting EVERY CUTSCENE with them introducing themselves cause we just HAD to be able to name Alear. Alear makes BEING a divine dragon in a series where they are worshiped lame.
The fact that Lilly put Rey as her third favourite Star wars character is extremly telling. Oh and the kicker she included legends. Kylo ren was her nr 1 hated character witch was basically the only consistantly good part about the sequles. Also Darth Maul was nr 2 most boring even with everything beyond ep 1. Truly s clown take.
Oh yeah Lilly. Arthas is irredemable because he was mindcontrolled by frostmourn. Sylvanas isn't irredemable because she didn't have a part of her soul because of frostmourn. Even tough Sylvanas did way worse than Arthas even the very thing that he did to her. Smh.
so it's not JUST the same source of corruption but Sylvanas also got a more intense version!?
Did you expect sense or consistency from Lily? She complains about a character not getting enough screen time but then calls episodes that are in depth character explorations of them 'filler episodes' that did nothing.
Use her logic against her and put a mary sues in the WOW story. A cool new shadow elf that become a leader of the horde, heals Sylvana Windrunner, kills a Arthas that somehow returned and everyone loves her.
Given what I've heard about her SW fanfic, it wouldn't surprise me if she wrote something like that.
Orchard doesn’t understand a lot of things honestly.
She actually said that Syndrome from Incredibles did nothing wrong. That he was the most competent character in the story and the best hero since he was able to defeat all the other heroes.
@@avivastudios2311 dawg you need to link that video right now lmao
@@KaiserShounen czcams.com/video/GrKh88vMmzc/video.htmlsi=clWKgi1N2NlIZpXz
Start from the 7 minutes mark. I just re-watched a piece of it and she said that Syndrome's ends were benevolent and that The Incredibles were incompetent people.
@@avivastudios2311 omfg I remember this one. Wow this is terrible
@@avivastudios2311She does realize Syndrome committed GENOCIDE on the supers and going to let the Omnidroid attack the city ON PURPOSE so he can take all the glory, right? Even Mr. Incredible called him out with this line “You mean you killed off real heroes so that you could PRETEND to be one?” How does she missed that?
I'm just here to boost the algorithm
Great choice of guest. You should bring him on more often!
you should bring on this dude called Biogundam sometime in the future, I heard he makes some fun stuff.
What does Lily Orchard understand at this point?
Fart huffing. She seems to be an expert in that field.
What I've seen a lot of in the Mary Sue debate is co flating Power Fantasy Characters as Mary Sues. Superman is a classic example. For all extensive purposes, Superman is a complete character. He is already morally upright and has developed his powers and abilities. Yet Superman still struggles, still has narratove stakes and still has to work within the confines of his setting. You also have James Bond who is ostensibly the perfect man. Every guy wants to be him every gal wants to be with him. James Bond does not bend and break the rules of the setting. He doesn't destroy narrative stakes. Out of Character, or Deus Machina moments don't save him. He doesn't just get a super power, or pull out a gadget Q never gave him. While he as a characters doesn't need to grow. He still can be in danger, his story still has narratove stakes. Power Fantasy can be good. Mary Sue is always bad.
25:15 I also wanted to point out an example of an overpower character done right and that is with sunraku from Shangri-La frontier. This is mainly just about people playing video games. The main character is a guy who specializes, completing the most broken incomplete glitchy games in the universe only to succeed at basically vr Elden ring because he has so much experiences with broken mechanics that he’s got good reflexes. But while character is strong he’s never overpowered. Moments in the series were outright loses, and I have to think of clever situations in order to slim by, when he goes up against Raiden, like that, he has to rely on other teammates because he can’t do as much damage as they can, when he plays outside in the main one, he is very skilled and people respect him for it, but he doesn’t always win. He’s antagonist very much so fun because while he is strong in his own way, he’s not absurdly broken. Top that off with a personality that makes you feel like he’s actually a gamer, and you got yourself actual good protagonist. Great video by the way just wanted to point out.
The mary sue seems to be a character that is a product of the mind of the kind of person that do not understand and/or is not aware of the "strugle to the path to mastery". Most people think that someone is talented when they are not aware of what the "talented" person went through to achieve such level of skill over whatever it is, and the writer of the mary sue think like that. This seems like a reasonable explanation to the fact that, more often than not, the mary sue comes atached to distaste of older characters, because they cant see their strugle to grow, and assume people admire them simply because they are man or white or both.
Honestly, I think that kind of mentality can apply not just to Mary Sues/Gary Stus. A writer could have a character struggle but still fail due to something inherently flawed with said character and/or struggle itself. An example could be Shiro Emiya from Fate/Stay Night (at least the anime adaptations) who is shown to struggle somewhat but there are inherent issues with his character that don't make him likable. The same applies to (at least, more recently) Izuku Midoriya from My Hero Academia who does struggle, but his character ultimately falls flat due to his power progression, self-destructive tendencies, and so on (much like Shiro)
To me, the Mary Sue is someone who can't be beat for any reason and comes in 3 flavours.
Good: A Mary Sue who's established to be unbeatable and is fun to watch.
Bad: A Mary Sue who's established as extremely powerful and sucks all the fun or tension away.
Pure: A Mary Sue that breaks the rules for no reason.
38:15 Hey that's ME! That's my comment.
Yeah, a friend of mine and I showed the OG vid to screenshot that. Thanks for asking the bright question.
@@KaiserShounen. In my experience, sometimes, it's not Just about asking smarter, but someone else being smart enough to listen. Especially in the mlp videos, Lily sounded like someone who's exasperated at their peers for not asking those questions, and claimed only themselves see what's wrong with the full picture.
Gonna be honest here I used to watch Lily years ago and thought that she was someone what was speaking some fact... now that i am older and know proper story telling and has seen the state of the internet and the levels of strawmaning happening. I really don't know how I ever thought anything she was saying credible. God her old Vids were bad.
I remember Baalspawn. Through The Fiery Joker.
An example of a character I like who is borderline a Mary Sue. He is named "Saitama" In his anime heroes exist and everything. He does the impossible and breaks his Limiter over the course of 3 years and boom he's the strongest Hero in the world. Wait! Not hero but am. Strongest Man in the world. And the conflict begins. He becomes bored, loses the thrill in life he had before, doesn't pay attention to conversations as easily anymore, easily distracted, Yada Yada Yada. He basically is at his strongest PHYSICALLY but Mentally he's becoming weaker. He can get Serious. He could go from slumping over his shoulder almost loosely wearing his suit that makes him look goofy. To his ENTIRE body outlining everything across the Suit. Showing off his abs, his shoulders, his biceps, his legs. But he rarely gets serious because. What is there left for him to be serious about? Being a hero who does it not for Fortune and fame? Won't that get to him? A interesting Anime that I suggest watching. ESPECIALLY the Manga
I've watched One punch man a while ago. Good show.
@KaiserShounen It is. The action in later in the Manga. Mmmmmm. You'll drool over it. And you would understand us the few who looked at the season 3 announcement and wish the best for the animators who won't be sleeping for a few years
Ignoring Saitama suffering from success of being OP, the reason he isn't a Gary Stu is because he's an idiot. He's always late to fights, causing the first responders to get hurt. He somehow didn't know about the Hero League that ironically was founded because of him and had been doing his thing while gaining no recognition for it. He literally fails the written portion of the Hero exam, causing him to start as a C Rank while Genos was in either A or S Rank. He struggles to find work to actually get his Hero License until Sonic shows up to fight him. And even then, that's only after Sonic starts attacking innocents while the Tank Top guy is lecturing him. Which results in him gaining a reputation for basically killstealing, although he embraces this after the fish King fight so the other Heros don't get disrespected by the populace. For all his raw power, Saitama has little going on in the head, resulting in him doing a significantly worse job than he would if her were at least decently smart. His intelligence is his big flaw that counteracts his physical strength and keeps him from actually being a Gary Stu. The existential crisis also helps to make him an interesting character instead of just a gag.
@espurrseyes42 You're right. Thank you for saying the things I didn't say. For all that amazing strength it's balanced with a not so good intelligence. Just look at the Garou VS Saitama fight. His opinion of Garou's "Absolute Evil" was that he kept on saving people. Even though it was ALL unintentional. Hilarious tho
@@KaiserShounen is it bad that i like some mary sues and gary stus and insert nonbinary and other gendere term
Wait the previous video was a preview? No wonder it was so short.
That whole theory you had at the end about Lily lying and knowing she's full of shit? You might be 100% correct. I recently stumbled across a reupload of one of her now deleted videos called "Little Mary Quite Contrary" from 2015-2016, and while she's still critical of the term's usage, she actually demonstrates an understanding of the problems with these types of characters (I.e. Plot bending to service protagonists). If I can find the video again, I'll send it to you but yeah, she's either gotten significantly dumber or more dishonest since the mid-2010's (my money's on both).
Dawg, if possible do whatever you can to find that and send it to me lol
Same.
Kaiser and I will legit credit you and cover it in my own video on the subject, if you can find it!
Sure, I'll send them to you both tomorrow when I get the chance.
@@john_o Don't worry about it. We found it through Wayback Machine. But we'll still credit you either way.
@@periodicpete There's actually two I wanted to send you, the other was what Little Mary was a remake of, being "Mommydagio Equals Alicorns" (which is rather infamous for revealing one of Lily's dirty little secrets but I digress). Hopefully you should find that one just as easily but if not, let me know and I'll send it to you. I think you should about both videos though to get the fuller picture.
How DARE you bring up the drought of new Mega Man games
Someone had to do it
I'd even settle for a rerelease. We still don't have Legends or StarForce collections. And th GB games could use remakes.
@@espurrseyes42
Poor Volnutt is still stuck on the moon
@@KaiserShounen. Ever thought about covering the periphery media? Because so fare, Sonic and megaman share both nostalgia critic's ignorance, and a show made by man of action and wildbrain!
There was a Gary Stu in Lord of the Rings: Tom Bombadil. He put on the ring to no ill effect and can basically do anything - usually while singing.
There's a reason he's not in the Peter Jackson LOTR.
You're forgetting that in the books that Tom in spite of his great abilities, is a scatterbrain which would have made it really easy for the one ring to get back to saulron if the hobbits decided to give it to Tom.
Jackson movies don't feature talking animals either because they change the entire tone of the story to a dark and epic one, and thus while they are great movies they aren't actually great adaptations of the books, and this isn't a Forrest Gump situation where the unfaithful adaptation is better than the original either.
If your critique says Tolkien's favourite character is bad writing then excuse me for not thinking it holds any merit at all.
Don't get me wrong, Lord of the Rings isn't perfect, but Tom is definitely not one of its flaws.
Really, I would love for people to stop trying to make good stories and just make what they want to make, because all flaws are subjective and there is no such thing as an objectively good story, nor a bad one.
There are things you will never enjoy but there is nothing no one will enjoy, and art caters to everyone.
A side character can't really be a Mary Sue especially when they're in the story for one chapter. No matter how good they are they aren't going to be the one to actually resolve the conflict of the story so it probably won't hurt the narrative. They just show up to give some good advice and then they're off.
Like when I want some fun with Mary Sues I just read a bunch of Chinese Manhwa with soap opera level writing, the Chinese sure love Mary Sue soap opera BS. Because sometimes you just wanna watch a train crash in slow motion. Like half of the time all the women other than the Mary Sue are unhinge psychos there to make the Mary Sue look better. I was telling my friend who is 1/4 Chinese about it and he was like "Yeah, no one hates other women more than Chinese Women." That was something I didn't expect to hear
One of, if not the most hated character types is the “super OP young male that is super bland so that self inserting is as easy as possible”
The Mary Sue is literally just a female version of that but with an obvious political background.
I am going to place ANYTHING critqueing "CULTURE WAR" as bad faith from this point on. Shad broke it down WELL anyone using "CULTURE WAR" as an argument simply is making a strawman to fight instead of their arguments. Same level as Lily and a BLACK MARK against them PERMANENTLY.
Not everyone loves Miles, but it weird no one calls him a marry sue.
Well you tell me. How is Miles a Mary Sue?
@@KaiserShounen I'm saying no one calls him Mary sue. That includes me.
@@Hot_SpicyGrill my mistake then lol
@@KaiserShounen
The most you could say is him in Insomniac conveniently getting the perfect power he needs in a situation. Rhino too strong? Venom powers. About to get shot by Roxxon security? Here's some Camo. Getting beaten by Roxxon after he gets kidnapped? Venom Blast. That's about it though, and he has imperfections as a person that causes problems for him.
@@espurrseyes42 Not to mention, you could just say those aspects are just how superheroes tend to awaken their abilities. It's the conventions of the genre. Plus Miles still faces trouble despite all of his abilities.
I'm gonna have to get you on Korra. No she didn't master the elements faster than Aang. She knew how to bend them as a toddler sure, but she didn't master them until after her constant training with White Lotus members (a luxury she has access to as the next Avatar because of the world her predecessor built), and still didn't have Air bending until the end of Book 1, which she struggled with the training of while Aang pretty easily handled and only struggled on the actual bending, which he got by the end of the episode he started training in.
She also gets wooped a LOT. Her team doesn't beat those cheaters in the Probending League. She fails to stop the Equalists frequently. Amon specifically gave her lasting trauma even up to Book 3 where she sees his face while being mercury poisoned. She loses access to the knowledge and BS her past lives could give her (which, i don't consider that BS given how Aang on more than one occasion has gotten possessed by a past life, Roku actually fighting on his behalf in that case) when the Light Spirit was destroyed, and was mercury poison at the end of Book 3 going into early Book 4. And all of this is going on in a world that doesn't seem to the Avatar around, especially in Book 3, and while dealing with a shitty Love Triangle subplot between her, Mako, and Asami.
It's kinda hard to call her a Mary Sue when she's anything but perfect and is constantly taking Ls. She's not that well-written, but a Mary Sue. She's not Rey, who struggles with next to nothing and doesn't have her flaws, if any, called out.
I think MangaKamen did a better job analyzing Korra’s character when he explained Korra is not a total Mary Sue but she has the traits of a Mary Sue at least from season 1-2.
One interesting different between Aang & Korra is how they initially think about being the Avatar due to their past:
_ Aang was a teen & lost all his friends because he's the Avatar & the monks were going to separate him from his adopted father, people was putting pressure on him due to Ozai clearly building up power. Thus he saw it as burden he couldn't wait to get rid off
_ Korra was a toddler (hasn't formed any bond beside with her family) & didn't lose anything, she was charmed by all the cool powers. And most importantly she was not pressured but instead pampered: The other Avatar had to go to each countries to learn bending(& the nations themselves), while Korra had teachers coming to her at the Southern Water Tribe instead(we saw her train fire bending at the South Pole & she knew only the very basic knowledge about the Earth Kingdom when she go there in SS3), Tenzin is the only exception(because he's the only Air master that can teach her but he has duties at the Republic City & can't leave for very long, so she had to go to him for training). So she is overly prideful of being the Avatar(she basically built her personality around it) & overconfident of her abilities despite knowing very little about her responsibilities
* P/S: Korra did break some rule. For example, she already could use 3 elements before learning it. In TLAB, even if you had the talent, someone has to introduce the basic to you before you can start bending rudimentary(Aang didn't bend anything beside Air until he had basic instruction)
@@firemaster9293 You mean, literally what I said lmao
Please submit your pick for what content you want to see next month www.youtube.com/@KaiserShounen/community
25:58 Lily became ultimate contrarian
I thought this was a reupload....until I saw the length of the video.
It seems that Lily doesn’t do her research very well on the things she’s reviewing like Baldur’s Gate, World of Warcraft, Avatar, Star Wars and many others.
Writing many kinds of characters can be fun. However Mary Sues are not fun to write about either, because the narrative bends to give them what they want with little to no effort. After all part of the joy of writing is putting yourself in your characters place and imagining what they are going through, and having everything you want gets stale fast cause it means you have nothing to work towards. Even coffee shop A.U.'s have the stress of running a business to keep up with modern day expenses', even if that isn't the focus of the plot. A fun story can become as stressful as the writer wants it without the need to bend the rules of the story.
110%
I can't imagine anyone writing Mary Sue fanfiction (over the age of like... 15) getting much of a kick out of it past 5 chapters.
@@KaiserShounen Speaking from experience, I was 16 or 17 when I wrote my first KR fanfics and the main characters in those were more or less self-insert Gary Stus. Kinda glad I never wrote more than 10 chapters with them.
@@KaiserShounen. Isn't that, how one punch man started life?
@@krraika1847. You could've gotten something worthwhile out of it with time and practice.
@@erikbihari3625 And I did. I've learned the severe problems with those fanfics. Over many years, I've made more mistakes with writing, have recognized them, and am trying to take steps to tell better stories to the best of my abilities. Just saying I'm glad I never did more (with those particular fanfics I've mentioned) because I probably wouldn't have improved otherwise.
i always expect too much from lily orchard, i saw the mary sue video's title and thought she was going to talk about how the term originates from fanfiction and take a "cringe culture is dead" approach and discuss how mary sue ocs in fanfiction are harmless fun at the end of the day and people tend to blow things way out of proportion when it comes to how people write their characters. but i forgot this is lily orchard we're talking about and once again got bombarded with at least 60 of the worst takes i've ever heard a human being make
10:31 and let’s remind the audience that the starring moment of “be a man” wasn’t Mulan getting better but EVERYONE getting better. Mulan was just the smoking gun that started the domino effect on everyone’s improvement, the shining light proving that everyone can get better so everyone stepped up to the challenge allowing Mulan to earn the respect of even her comrades that initially had beef with her and eventually became some of her best friends/ally’s.
for me a Gary/merry sue is a Character who is borderline perfect in almost every single way, makes no mistakes or if they makes mistakes they don't suffer any real consequences from them, they bend or brake the rules of there established setting on a regular basis. overpowered with very little rhyme or reason
outside of there their special. never undergo any change or character character development because there perfect the way they are, and they are popular and well loved even though there is no reason given or shown why they are liked.
can you have a character who is borderline perfect? you sure can. the anime Haven't You Heard? I'm Sakamoto had that as it's plot, with characters reacting to how borderline prefect Sakamoto is. can you have a character that beads or brakes rules of an established setting? yes. many battle shounens do have characters that do bend or brake rules to a certain degree, because there the exception that proves the rule.
can you have a character that is overpowered? yes and you even tell many interesting story with an overpowered character, for example tell the story about how there power isolates them from human society. on it's own having a character with these aspects is fine. however what really makes a character a gary/merry sue for me is that they have no depth to them or not much of a personality outside of "Holy shit look how powerful they are"
Wait till Lily orchard hears about warhammer 40k. She's gonna go ballistic. She's not gonna handle the grimdark of this franchise. And she's gonna call humans the bad guys when really they are in the right for what their doing.
Also blame Erebus.
15:42 Overly Sarcastic Production is our Ace Queen ready to defeat Lily :0
You do realise they said to think Lily has subscribed to red?
Lily wants to say we're wrong for calling out women written poorly by men, yet also call the film industry sexist. If she actually cared she'd argue the reason these characters are Mary Sues is because of sexism. She doesn't care about anything but being a toxic hipster.
Watching your video was quite the fun, Kaiser. Both you and Pete had put a lot of effort in the video. And I meant a lot by stating, why I haven't watched SAO. And here I thought, that Issei from Highschool DxD was a Gary Stue, majorly because he is not only overpowered, but also gets powerups by thinking of touching boobs. If I still have to choose, I'd hate Kirito more, because he is not a character. At least with Issei, they tried to do something. And one of the stuff I heard about Highschool DxD, is that it is more than just story, filled with boobs.
18:37 that’s scene is only their because of food poisoning from the main actor, if he wasn’t their was going to be an entire fight scene
Very true
Indie isn't even a Mary Aue since he doesn't auto resolve most fights with a revolver seeing as Ze Germans have mp40s and shit and struggles a lot.
I love how every lily orchard vid responds needs this line “not only is it disingenuous but it’s just wrong”😭 it’s like I gotta make a bingo book
Cook
I love seeing small CZcams beef. It warms my soul. Especially when it’s a one sided clown show.
When u said breaks the plot I was about to comment Korra, mostly cause the avatar state, cause most people can look at the learning the element thing if it changes the story in a funny way, but as they kept stacking feats that shouldn't be possible while trying to make it sound valid made people look back into stuff like the start again
Naofumi is a Gary Stu? But he goes through literal hell throughout season one. He gets his most powerful abilities because he thinks he's losing everything. He hurts those he loves while using this power and can only get out of berserker mode when his closest loved one puts herself in danger and realizes his mistakes. He's flawed as hell.
I am always happy to see Lily orchard be shit on !
This is my first time watching a video criticizing one of my CZcamsrs that wasn't straight garbage
Actual research,every appropriate amount of information,appealing presentation,working comedy. My friend, just earned yourself a new subscriber! How you so good for an upstart?
At this point, she's becoming a joke.
She was a joke, is a joke, and will always be a joke.
You had me at Muffin Button.
RANDOM BUMBLEBY KISS JUMPSCARE??? seeing RWBY randomly is always so scary...very silly
i didnt expect for the rwby to keep going 10/10 video like actually i love rwby
18:54
I kinda feel like Lily has been drinking cactus juice their entire youtube career at this point.
Nah, cactus juice is just fruity water, she’s been huffing copium quadloos for decades.
A hero is no hero without falling and going through hard ships... It's almost like hard ships help builds character.
Another video destroying Lily’s bullsh*t? 🍿🍿🍿
Enjoy
We all love to see it.
@@KaiserShounen. Telly ho chao! Would you care to ask for a spot of tea?
People keep having the mindset "If i don't like it, i must explain why it's objectively bad"
0:36 Damn it why did you have to remind me? 😭😭😭
Excellent video. You two did an excellent job with good references and counterpoints. I’ve heard of Lili Orchard but never checked out her content. I don’t plan to. She’s a terminally online ideologue far as I am concerned. Onto the video, I loved how you framed the Mary/ Gary Stu argument as being a narrative problem as much as character. When you have a character who doesn’t face any significant and meaningful(both are important) pushback and obstacles you deprive them of a chance to learn and grow. Your point about a lot of bad Isekai doing this is also great to see. It’s why I love series like Mushoku Tensei and Re;Zero because they do pose significant obstacles for their main characters that aren’t easily solved. And why someone like Rey and Korra are bad. And as someone working on my own book, this kind of advice Lili is spotting is bad. Bad media and why we go after it can be useful for aspiring writers to take note of not what to do. To strive to put in the thought, care and effort into their craft when making a story. Because often the most well regarded pieces of media are those where the authors do put in the time and thought into it. It’s why I can happily say I love FullMetal Alchemist. Hiromu Arakawa put in the research and effort into her story and characters and there’s a reason why it’s still beloved decades later.
My God, the comments on the original vvid. I lost braincells.
It's full of people who focus on the spectacle of a character rather than the reason people get invested: good writing.
Wouldn't be surprised if most of them are Kirito fans.
No way you actually did a video on her. Honestly, I'm all for Lily slander, but I didn't actually expect you to make your own video on her.
Nothing in this video is slander. Lily Orchard is an idiot who doesn't understand what makes a character good.
Got to say great video but I have an issue about Kirito. He doesn't fit being a Mary/Gary. To start he isn't some genius level programmer. It's never stated or shown to be the case. We do know that he has built his own computer and was a beta tester which neither would require high level programming. Kirito is indeed a skilled player but also so are people like Asuna who are just as good as him. All the women don't pine for him. By the end of the Aincrad arc he's married to Asuna. None of the girls had a crush on him except for Liz but she quickly stopped after seeing him with Asuna. As for Suguha his cousin there's missing context. First she didn't know the player was her cousin/brother since it was 2 years after what happened in SAO. After she finds out the player was Kirito she quickly stops after her "romantic" feelings became sibling feelings. They have a normal sibling relationship. He didn't hack into a complex AI. Yui was an admin that gave Kirito access to the game files where He copied Yui's code into an Item and the copying that to his personal computer. Blocking Bullets is a mix of factors. His Kendo training did help but also he has good reaction speed plus like all vet SAO players their stats were carried over to GGO. The sword he uses the Photon Sword which is designed to interact with bullet lines which helps him defect bullets. There's a lot of game mechanics that go into Kirito defecting bullets. Kirito loses his 1st fight with Kayaba with their 2nd fight barely being a draw. Kirito is nearly killed by Kuradeel being saved by Asuna. Those are a few fights that come mind with him losing major fights. He never willed himself to live in a death game. It was established early on that there's a delay in dying in the game and the headset killing you. Not including the fact it was always shown you fade away slowly which gives you time. Kirito was hit with an adrenaline before he died giving him that final strength to make the fight a draw. This is no different than any other story where they do this.
It's because Lily sees herself as a Mary Sue, that's why she vehemently defends it.
Gundam Seed is good? Admittedly, I haven't watched it, but I got my doubts.
Anyway, as as guy who has read fanfics since I was a wee lad of 12, I can tell you there is A LOT of OCs (male and female alike--sometimes Japanese-ish) who hog the spotlight from the established characters. Sometimes, they're not even Mary Sues/Gary Stus, they're just badly written.
Like you've said in the beginning, this stuff here is nothing new. In fact, the arguments supporting Mary Sues could be used for non-Mary Sue/Gary Stu characters who are just as bad, e.g. Bayformers' Optimus Prime, Snyder's Superman (and maybe the DCEU characters in general), etc. Not helped that favoritism can still exist for these characters. And the less I say about SW (pre-Disney and Disney alike), the better.
No I said it wasn't good lmao. Gundam SEED is terrible
@@KaiserShounen Ah, I misheard you saying "Periodic Pete not seeing SEED is good" as "SEED is good." My mistake. In any case, a decent vid.
I liked Gundam Seed. Destiny was trash tho I'm glad I watched it cause kimi wa boku niteiru is my all time favourite ED
Your examples are bad, because at least bay-verse optimus doesn't bend the story to his will or get unnecessary wins, and snyder should've stuck to gahool, as he's really good at least that! Right everyone? Kaiser?
@@KaiserShounen. Will you ever elaborate on this in video form(or something else)?
8:47 Miles is an already established character in the comics, Rey and Finn were original characters
Love the video a great talk on the sue trope and why that are lazy and bring good stories down
Liked that you played Honoo no Sadame. I love Chirico, but with a bad writer he could have easily ended up as a Marty Stu but instead of ending up as a woobie and falling into the Sympathetic Sue trope he remained resilient and became a determinator
*Perks up ears* Why yes, that sure is the SRW rendition of Honoo no Sadame. Based choice of BGM.
Glad someone noticed ;)
@@KaiserShounen Real recognize real homie. Now we collectively wait for a new SRW OG announcement, please BAMCO.
Here from Sai's server my dude. Good vid 👌
Very nice discussion. I probably like Lily Orchard’s content more than most people here but this critique is on point and is one of the most concise and clear definitions I have seen on the topic of Mary Sues.
I've heard it best that "Mary Sue" isn't some kind of character description or character specific trope, it’s a *writing* flaw. In bare bones it’s critical of how the writer is doing their job. Not any kind of weird judgment of actions made by a non-existent human that isn't and will never be sentient beyond their writer.
Lily dumb. And she really doesn’t grapple with the concept that men are writing some of these Hollywood Sue characters, huh. You'd really think that would've been a topic for a good ol' rant about her f-ed up ideas. Can totally see her doing a "if you aren't x gender/other thing, then how dare you write them as the leads in your stuff"...
Sweet! Another fellow Mega Man fan! Where all my Megas at?
24:54 Also for a good comparison look at Kirito vs his SAO abridged parody counterpart.
Hey just wanted to say that the editing is fantastic
Eminence in Shadow is what I'd argue to be a case of the Mary Sue trope working well. Probably because it uses it for comedic purposes.
Is he a gary stu if he gets everything wrong, fails his personal objectives regardless? Then the world just makes his mistake just WORK in a way HE DOESN'T WANT?
@@snintendog Yes. A story bending itself backwards in order to make a character seem great is how I'd describe a Mary Sue in the first place. The character's own interests aren't necessarily a factor.