Towers of Midnight by Robert Jordan & Brandon Sanderson (Pt I) Is Focusing On The Wrong Tasks So Far
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- čas přidán 25. 08. 2024
- Mike continues his journey into the world of Robert Jordan's fantasy epic The Wheel of Time. This is part 1 of his full spoiler review for Towers of Midnight, so use caution if you've not read the first 13 Wheel of Time (and New Spring) books yet.
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Hey Wheelies & Darkfriends! I'm hoping the comments stay more civil this time but speak your mind. As always, this channel is about discussion, debate, and being okay with a difference of opinion. Enjoy!
Maradon...amirite?
I think the light covering the madness in his mind is was due to the event at the end the previous book. That light covering the darkness does not remove Lews Theron while curing his madness. At least that was my impression.
Mike stay true to how you feel, it’s a pity that the internet seems to be a place of little tolerance for those that date to have a different perspective or different view of something. I find Elayne annoying because she seems to be indifferent to theirs around her & how many she gets killed by her stupid actions.
With regards Egwene I agree with you in some respects, it’s very difficult to remember what it was like to read these books a first time, on re reads you understand (although I don’t always agree with it) regarding how the sisters will automatically defer to a sister who’s stronger In the power. In real life no one would defer to someone in her late teens/early 20s when they’re in their 60s & these sisters are often over 100yrs old with all that experience behind them. But RJ set up the magic system with that hierarchy in place so if we are willing to buy into the rest of the system, then by default we have to buy into the power based deference of these sisters. As I said it seems easier to accept the more times you read it
Something to consider regarding the battle between Egwene and Messana in Tel'aran'rhiod. I honestly think this breaks your theory that Egwene didn't do anything to earn her power. She went to essentially dream bootcamp with the wise ones. Moghedien always claimed that she owned Tel'aran'rhiod amongst the forsaken, and somebody with as little skill as Nynaeve is able to best Mogedien way back in Salidir. Egwene has had training in will. Fairly extreme training. If Messana truly has less skill than Moghedien then Egwene's victory is not only a foregone conclusion, but it should be the complete wipeout that it is depicted as. I think that this is the one place where you aren't giving Egwene her proper credit so far. But that's just my take on the story. I don't have a lot of love for Elayne either though.
The Rand in the orchard scene at the beginning is one of my favorites of the book, the apple farmer is the man that gave him and Matt a ride on his cart way back in the first book.
Dam I didnt realize this... man thats some good writing lol
I love that apple part too!!
Me too! I mentioned it in my small moments video😊 It’s a very “feel” moment. Nothing significant happens but it’s the perfect way to introduce Zen Rand.
And they passed Brynn's , which will now probably replace Barleon in the tv show
It's so good. After the tempest that was the end of The Gathering Storm. Seeing Rand laugh again and the book ending. Then we come to apples first to see him again. Hope. You can really feel it. Light, I love it.
I loved Rodel’s part in this story, and badass Rands moment annihilating the trollocs was just wow
Yes yes it was in my opinion it’s where we truly see what rand is capable of
That intro was fire. Best quotes from ToM, and your narration gave me chills.
There are many good Aes Sedai in this series, some of them can even consider themselves great, BUT in my opinion only Nynaeve, Verin and Moiraine deserve title of "Servant of All".
The part when Rand tells Nynaeve not to change is so good i loved it her arc is so good.
Naynaeve went from being my least favorite character, to one of my favorites. Her character arc was incredible
💯
yea , because she's not the same character, she completely changed, she's written differently . i also like the late nynaeve , but i didnt forget early books nynaeve and i dont consider them the same characters, because they're simply not. she's just writen differently. im not gonna forget all the man hatred , hypocrisy, annoying attitude that she used to have, and i dont buy all of that dissappearing. i mean i like how she is now , she's amazing, but im not buying the change though. its too big of a change.
Don't worry Mike there's a lot of fans that agree with you on Egwene!
I do feel like Egwene defeating Mesana in the dream world was kind of earned though through her training with the wise ones. And it seems she isn’t quite as powerful in dreams as Perrin.
@@DarkClaw0912 oh definitely in my opinion. The wise one and other dreamers are pretty much children compared to the wolfs
Egwene mentions that forcing her will on a pile of ruble would be to much for her while for perrien it would have been a walk in the park
After finishing a WoT entry I immediately come to your reviews. I'm so pumped for the final book!
Lol bro, same.
Egwene imagining the collar off: This is the same method Perrin uses in the ‘wolf dream’ and since they are the same place, same rules. Also, I ‘think’ she learned the technique from Perrin, ‘it is only a weave...”
Word. Also it is well established in Book V that Egwene is vastly stronger in the dreamworld than Nynaeve. So if Nynaeve can imagine a collar onto a Forsaken, makes sense that Egwene could imagine one off of herself.
Yeah Egwene doing that makes total sense. She is still the worst but that action isn't an asspull, it makes sense.
I dislike egwene but her power in the world of dreams was well established and that moment with perrin was the last piece in the blacksmiths puzzle. Removing the collar would have been easy for egwene, it was only mesaana she was facing who was not top teir in the world of dreams
She sucks lol no matter how you break it down. She thinks she knows better then everyone else. When it's proven time and time again that she doesn't.
It's why I'm the last book that thing happens. (Trying not to spoil it just in case of new readers)
But everyone has a different opinion. So like what you like and we'll do the same.
@@ZydrateVr4 would've , not would of.
Egwene is my favourite character and I agree with your comparison of Egwene's behaviour pre-last battle with how some politicians address the pandemic. And I did find it very annoying that she was being dismissive towards Rand and then organises an oposition, although I can understand her reasoning. I think a big part came from Rand's lack of communication, I genuinely think that Rand should've had a deep, long conversation with her explaining his plan and the reasons behind it, rather than being like imma break the only thing keeping the Dark One locked, deal with it byeee. She would've then understood and fully supported him I think.
Also I think the Black Ajah did an excellent job on making the WT as useless as possible for centuries, so she had very little time to purge it and kill Messaana before the LB, something that needed doing or it would have been a disaster, which kinda justifies why she was so focused on WT politics and ignored the rest.
On the OP matter, I agree to some degree (I think all 5 Emond fielders are beyond OP) but I don't think she was particularly super OP. She was able to will the a'dam off and break her mind because she was in Telaranhriod, where you can do that kind of stuff, and she is extremely proficient in it. However Perrin is even more OP in it because he can just make balefire vanish, which Egwene had never even considered. And outside the world of dreams Nynaeve was way more powerful and could do things that not even healers in the AoL could dream of, talk of OP haha. This is all constructive discussion, I appreciate your takes on it and your opinions👍🏻
Everything scene with Rand is amazing in this book, goosebumps every time
Hey Mike. I'm sorry to hear that some of the fandom had gone sour on you. Though I generally like the character of Egwene, I totally get where your coming from when it comes to her arrogance and her "I know what's best" attitude. As you've already found out, this fandom is pretty passionate. Please don't let your experience with some of these few bad apples ruin your opinion of the fandom overall. At the end of the day, what matters most is how you personally feel about the books. Anyone who does a review, gives their opinion. People should realize that. I certainly respect yours. Keep it up Mike!
My biggest problem with Egwene is that I feel like she kind of lost all her good qualities (beside her power) as the series progressed, while her bad qualities only got worse...
She was inquisitive, supportive and a reformer, but by the end of the series she's just a political Aes Sedai like all the others...
At least Nyneave, and to a lesser extent Elayne, remained on the reformation side....
yep
egwene full aes sedai now and thats really bad
I love Nynaeve telling Egwene that she is going to be an Aes Sedai on her terms. Lots of people have issues with Egwene so more people are on your side than you seem to think. Egwene mafia is just really vocal. "Gawyn the best swordsman after Lan"...no way, you are about to be reminded of another Blademaster in A Memory of Light
Definitely
Honestly I;ve been reading through all the books myself and cutting myself off from any internet talk about it. I decided to go through these reviews as a little refresher before the last book, and I'm a bit blown away at all the Egwene hate. I mean when it's explained I get where people are coming from, but she was like my favorite character in the whole series from a bit before she became Amyrlin, up until now.
The apples thing... there's two parts to it. One is that at this point he's 'allowed' to work as a counter to the dark one's influence on the pattern. Those bubbles of Evil? Rand is now a walking bubble of Good. The other part is that he's got Aiel blood. And now remembers the Age of Legends. Including the Aiel's song, which makes things grow. You may notice him singing or humming under his breath to deliberately cause that effect at some points.
Gawyn the best swordsman? He's definitely up there, but you don't get a lot of direct comparisons to other light-side swordsmen. You'll get some in the final book.
And yeah, Egwene is an asshole in this book. Her power level doesn't really bother me. Yeah, she's OP. So is Nyneve - she cured Stilling, which nobody in the age of madness could touch. She cured the taint madness that literally the entire combined might of every channeler from the age of legends couldn't even touch, despite it being literally the most important problem they faced for decades. So is Rand. Like, holy SHIT so is Rand. And Matt? Even Perrin, starting in this book. And... basically everyone?
But her *arrogance* is what really sets me on edge. The way she seems to assume that only she has learned *anything* since leaving the two rivers. That, despite every prophecy pointing to the dragon, it's definitely *her* that should decide how the last battle goes down. Like, she led one unsuccessful siege. That's more military leadership than most people... but did she forget the time she spent riding along with an army led by Rand as it (successfully) conquered countries? Why does she think he's still an ignorant farmboy when she's been present for him assuming leadership of at least four different nations while she was still accepted? Ugh.
He's not just a bubble of good. He is the dragon, he is one with the land. The state he is in also reflects on the land
Wow, I never picked up that Rand was singing the Song.
I am pretty sure Jordan has stated that top three swordsmen (on the side of Light) were Rand (with both hands), Lan and Galad (can't remember the exact ranking but those were the top three). Jordan also stated something like "Gawyn is lucky" in relation to not fighting really good fighter and beating that Warder by luck. Gawyn is still very good mind you but he is not at the top.
Yeah Egwene being OP is really a non-issue to me since in this series most main characters are OP (and also I kinda like OP characters). However her personality is really tiring. She is arrogant, as you said and has been wanting power/importance since the beginning. She first modelled herself on Nynaeve, the most powerful woman around. And almost as soon as she left the Two Rivers she went to modelling herself off Aes Sedai. And almost immediately her goal was to become Amyrlin.
@@revan0890 it is pointed out many times actually.. most notabally when he goes to tuon to persuade her to sign the dragon's peace.. and then things happen and then when the grass are being green.. under rand's leg.. mat asks .. are you singing .. hmm i think i have heard that before.. then he also starts humming along .
Thanks for featuring my Aviendha artwork, Mike! It always makes me glad to see it around. What others wot characters would you guys like to see besides Aviendha?
Nice work!
Awesome artwork, would love to see Nynaeve, Elayne, Mat, and Thom.
If its any consolation you're not alone in finding Egwene a frustrating character. Honestly, I tend to skim/skip her chapters when re-reading. She has her moments, don't get me wrong, but especially when compared to Nynaeve it just feels like more could have been done with her, at least for me.
For me at least Nynaeve's growth, both personality-wise and power wise, just feels more organic, not to mention Nynaeve actually becomes less antagonistic towards people rather than more. I'm not sure I'd go as far as Egwene intentionally sabotaging Nynaeve though (at least consciously).
Egwene being beaten by the wise ones for longer than they had ever seen, because she knew she deserved it, was her high point in the story
I think Cadsuane was almost more of a mentor for Nynaeve than Rand.
Nynaeve's "Golden Crane" speech WAS more goose-bumpy than Lan's. I agree totally about Egwene. After three rereads I hate her arrogance MORE each time. Her best moment in the series was when she got that whoopin from the Wise Ones about lying. And yes she and Gawyn are the perfect couple. 28:43 YASSSSS LOLOLOL
#nagwene
Yes Robert Jordan wrote nynaeve's and Brandon wrote lan's go figure
@@MrJohnp93 Not at all. Brandon has some of the best dialogue/character interactions in the series. There also no way to know what RJ's notes were on that moment. He may have intended it to be that way. Maybe Nynaeve just set the bar so high with her speech and the Malkieri merchant's reaction. Lan's speech was more grim resignation than celebratory.
@@robertlester641 what are you smoking? Jordan's dialogue is WAY better than Sandersons!
@@robertlester641 I love Brandon, I love his books and he did a great job with the wheel, but no one could do it like RJ
"He paid the cost and now he's boss"
One of the many reasons I prefer him to another character that shall not be named.
For the best swordsman wait for memory of light
1000% with you on your feeling for Egwene. I find it refreshing to hear your take on her since I always felt the same way and every message board intent to loved her so much.
And Nynaeve's character development is among if not the best out of everyone.
I found her annoying as well but in AMOL she has one of my favorite scenes in the series. Nynaeve is awesome!
While Egwene has some strong moments in the series... a lot of readers don't recover from Egwene basically becoming Elaida in TGS and ToM. Egwene bashing is a form of therapy and I'm always happy to hear that people feel the same way about Egwene that I do. On my re-reads I try to like her but it's really hard, especially when Nynaeve is my favorite and Egwene constantly wrongs her for the sake of trying to feel better than Nynaeve.
I'm glad I'm not alone on these opinions. She 100% became Elaida. I was rather surprised at the pushback I received from folks about Egwene.
I still don't care for Nynaeve either, so I don't care that much.
They're pretty horrible people, all the "girls", and most AS.
There's only three female characters I care for, Siuan, Min and Verin.
@@ChristmasLore I could understand that about Nyanaeve, ESPECIALLY in the first books but by the end she just isn’t the same
I liked her a lot more in my first re-read, but as soon as she became Amyrlin all her growth, and impressive feats were diminished. I appreciated how intelligent she was in rising to power with the rebels, and how badass she was earning respect from wise ones. Then suddenly she dismisses Rand so easily 🙄
I am on my first read through as well and your videos have been wonderful. I've agreed with you on nearly everything, especially the Egweyne and Gawan plot. The thing that really pushed me over the edge is when she sent him away, so he left, and then she gets all pissy because he did what she wanted!?!? Ugh, power trip to the max!
This is not the best book, but it is the book that is NEEDED the most. It is the final setup so aMoL can really be the book it needs to be.
And yeah egwene, ugh, never liked her since way back when she was bullying Perrin back in book 1.
She never evolves/grows. Of course I think character development, in the WoT series, is pretty mediocre. The more books I read the less I like this series and most of it because I find the characters to be very 2-dimensional....and that only changes for a couple of characters.....out of more than 30.
It’s not the book we deserve, but it IS the book that we NEED.
Re: Rand's madness
I figured that the golden stuff around the black spikes was basically a manifestation of the Light due to him being its champion forming a buffer between him and the madness, allowing him to remain fully lucid for the last battle, and his realization of the power of love allowed him to tap into it.
Justin Horsley - Queue Huey Lewis...
Also in the apple field did you realize who was the old farmer? He is the same guy who gave Rand and Mat a ride back in book 1 :)
Wheel of time logic: The end of the world is happening and we are arguing about parking tickets.
This was actually a key part of humanity that Robert Jordan specifically wanted to focus on, and that is that people will still be petty when the world is ending. Even with the end of the world coming people will still be selfish, search for power, and complain about less important things is a main thesis of Wheel of Time
Well, only essential stores are supposed to be open and people are not supposed be traveling, but my store has never been so busy before for this time of year. I work at Home Depot
@@jakebishop7822 You only have to look out the window or watch the news and you can see how true this is.
@@rustywarrior5288 Yep, 2020 is proving Robert Jordan right.
@@revan0890 Being stuck at home gives you a lot of time to do repair and maintenance tasks that usually get put off or not done at all. Or you notice something wearing or breaking down.
I've always had issue with how the tower tried to control Rand, and it creates a conflict but with Eggy its seem like, lady you know him, hes been through hell maybe you should trust him a bit he came out on the other side better. But ya after the whole Seanchan attack and she was made head of the beehive she went downhill after that for me.
Nyneave is my all time fav. Absolutely love her.
I also liked Gawin. I dont get the hate.
@@rosierumsey Nyn is my fav and I didn’t care for Gawyn too much, but I felt how much he loved Egwene. I cried when he … you know … in book 14.
Great stuff man, as to eggy i actually loved her stuff with Aiel where she actually learns what it takes to be a Big Girl, But one of my few complaints with Sanderson is he isnt able to show that she learned a thing, She WAS the Amyrlin lol, I am not sure she has any argument at all to go against Rand the way its portrayed in these 2 books other then to oppose him because she cant be second fiddle to anyone as Amyrlin. A character that had great potential but fell short due to the forced author change imo. So that Zen Rand guy is pretty op huh :) These two books are almost that last bricks to be layed before the wall comes down but imo they had decent pace and hold up really well when you consider that someone diff had to write them, i cant say enough good things about Sanderson for the job he did. For your wish list what do you think was going on with the Aiel woman avi meets on her way to take her test? Do you think the shadow has anything besides the dark one that could stand against rand? who would be the better dinner guest RAnd with his 3 dates, Mat with his wife who thinks shes god, or the one who might chew the table leg and his wife?
Perrin: I can talk with wolves, and I kill those two random white cloaks.
Me screaming in the background: Who cares? Last Battle!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Same
So sad too as I thought Perrin would stay one of my favorite characters......but he is just meh.
It couldn’t be Avoided honestly had the trail not happened they would have been ambushed
I love NY'neve too! She's been one of my favorite characters since day 1! I'm glad you love her too!
Great review! I loved Egwene's arc becoming Amrylin, but once she becomes the big cheese, I really SOUR on her. I just hate how she won't even talk with Rand and she knows him from childhood. They can't even have a discussion. It drove me crazy. Thanks for putting these fun videos out there and it's a great reminder of what happened in the stories again. It's been 10 years+ since I read them and hearing your reviews I'm like; Oh yeah, that was awesome, I forgot about it. I want to do a re-read before the show.
She does not once care about her family or Emond's field.
She doesn't really care about any of her childhood friends.
She put Nynaeve through hell, she already, before, thought of even torturing her in T'alamanriod...
Such an awesome person....
I’m here for the Egwene bashing. Jk, but really Egwene, sometimes you.... *sigh*
I think you'll find what you're looking for here.
I actually wrote down "Egwene is a bitch" in my notes while reading. And I liked her in the previous books for the most part
I know that's a bit later, but I have a theory. First off, Egwene is not one of my favorites characters, but I like her. So, I'll agree with you in some aspects of her development and actions, but I'm feeling the need to comment this. Probably the interaction with the fandom that likes Egwene was so bad that made you "blind" when reading Egwene's POV. In that fight in the tower, there was a moment that Perrin believed that the weaves of balefire would do nothing and it did nothing, startling Egwene with that. He said to her that it was just weaves. I don't think that, until that moment, she would be capable to do such a thing. And it made she realize that the mind is more powerful than the weaves in the world of dreams. Taking that and the lesson that Silviania taught her (about the other Amyrlin that accepted that she did not hold the seat anyome or something) and there's the why she was able to believe that the a'dam could not do harm.
And, despite being a little late, I would like to comment another thing. The problem is not your opinion about Egwene, but how you voice it. It's a bit childish not using her name, just Amyrlin. The way you talk about her shows me how bad was the interaction with the fandom and such, and I'm sorry for it, but I think that pushes people away, incluind me.
I think Egwene being OP could have been explained from the beginning by making her a Ta'veren. But that doesn't excuse her just being mean to everyone. Overall, great review so far!
I feel like everyone from the two rivers is OP, and my reasoning is that they were just AROUND the ta’veren. Like how there are found to be so many who can channel both men and women that come from the two rivers. I feel like it also has to do with Manetheren’s history, like the old blood is strong .
"Just two annoying people, they belong together." I love it.
Can you imagine though, for some people this is their first epic fantasy series, of course they take it personally. I read it, enjoyed it, was glad it was finally over and will not be rereading it. But I read it after I read LOTR, The First Law, Dune, most of Sanderson, Rothfuss, Game of Thrones... and loads of mediocre fantasy. I am a little jealous though, to start with this, that would be something. So, if I were you, I wouldn't take it personally, your channel has grown and you have more people watching now, of course there will be a certain percentage of people that can't don't react to criticism well, at least for the rest of us, we will always appreciate your honesty and for that reason choose you over that "other" book reviewer. Cheers man!
Ok. I'll split my opinions on this book so they are with the appropriate videos.
Mike, I am with you in general regarding your feelings about the Amyrlin. I understand that the story has her super-powerful. She has faced tons of obstacles to grow into the woman she is at the beginning of this book. My problem with her, is that she doesn't consider that anyone else has done anything like that either.
I believe Thom was the one who said (in one of the early books. maybe the great hunt) that whatever you see someone as first, that is how they will always see you. She knows the Emond's Field crew as the kids and mentor she grew up around. And that's how she treats them. Not as kids who grew up around each other, but as The Amyrlin addressing a child from a small farming village. She knows that Rand is the DR, and that he, Perrin, & Mat are ta'veren, but chooses to treat them like children. To me, she is so self-important that she cannot see that the timeline for Tarmon Gai'don is not in her control. The Dragon is reborn. He will duel with the DO. And if he does, humanity has a chance. But she treats him like a woolheaded sheepherder who has done nothing else in his life and that the plans of The Tower are the only important ones.
Wow! Way more than I meant to say there. Anywho, on to Part II!
Ohhh can't wait! I'll be at work, but I plan to watch on my lunch break! 😁😁😁
Hope it's an enjoyable break.
Here are my thoughts on "The Amrlyn," who by the way I have never liked, ever since she forced her way into the party when leaving the Two Rivers. Egwene was a social climber from the get-go. She wants to apprentice to Nynaeve to be a village wisdom, because it is the highest position a woman can hold. She is infatuated with Rand and wants to marry him because he is the "best" prospect in the little village they live in.
She meets Moraine, and starts emmulating her immediately. She finds out what an Aes Sedai is, she wants it. She is made puppet Amrlyn, and turns it into a real position, then becomes Amrlyn for real. She was always destined for the top, and never cared about who she had to use or step on to get there. Not that she didn't do incredible, at times world saving tings, but the way she went about it was very unethical. Tying up Perrin, and earlier when she tried to school Nynaeve in TAR by making her feel like she was going to be raped, just to prove how much more powerful she was in the workd if dreams especially when the Aiel wise women are still light years more powerful/skilled than she us, that left me with a really bad taste in my mouth. Nothing that Egwene has done has been able to allow me to forgive her for that.
I also feel like everything about the White Tower, the superiority compex, treating grown ass women like children, turning away women who can channel and want to learn for being too old, their sole monoploy on the One Power, the dogmatic adhearance to their institution, the corruption, the steadfast way they believe that their way is the only way, not acknowledging the other groups of channelers like the Windfinders, Wise Ones or the Kin and their wanting them to submit to the White Tower's absolute authority, their belief in "this is the way it's always been done, and this is the way it will always be done," especially in terms of things like swearing the three oaths on the oath rod, even after learning that it shortens lifespans and was a way to bind criminals in the Age of Legends, and the list goes on and on. I really feel like Egwene is the personification of the White Tower's values, and is why I will never like her as a person.
Excellent sum up of everything wrong with her.
It's seems contradictory that you think Egweyne embodies all those bad aspects of the White Tower that you listed, when she's going out on a limb against custom trying to subvert almost every policy you listed. She's the one who wants to do exchange program with windfinders/wise ones, she had the idea to open the novice book to all women who can channel, she suggested unbinding from the oath rod for retirement after learning from the Kin, etc. Much of her influence to uproot tradition came from her time spent as a wise one apprentice and with other non-ais-sedai; she understands the value of a fresh and open perspective unburdened by decades of white Tower habits and traditions.
She's quite a progressive amarlyn but you make her sound like a typical stuffy conservative ais sedai. I disagree on that count (her Mary Sue aspect does grate on me but that's not the topic here). Sorry about spelling btw I do audiobooks.
P.S. I know my comment is a year after yours, but these books are probably timeless so I'm sure someone will reply to *me* in a year lol.
You read my mind on my thoughts on Egwene and Nynaeve, Nynaeve grew on me more and more as the series went on, with her becoming one of my favorites with how wonderful and just absolutely awesome she is. With Egwene, she just gets worse and worse, more and more arrogant. It is frustrating to read anything with Egwene, and her thoughts don't help either. She is vapid, vain, petty, and annoying. She's the daughter of a motel owner who so happens to be strong in the power, and yet she acts like she's the greatest thing to happen since the Creator itself. She always believes she's right, and that everyone else is worse than herThe fact that she always seems to get what she wants, avoiding punishment, and has everyone wanting her, it just gets so annoying to read.
At least with Rand and Nynaeve, they both grow from their faults and becomes something better; heck, Rand has even more excuses because he was going insane, what with the voices, torture, violation, abuse, and the Dark One's Taint. Egwene is just a narcissist who never gets better, and she's only likable when dealing with people worse than her, who also so happen to be some of the biggest idiots of the series. And with people accusing you for being a "sexist" or whatever else is just a lack of argument on their part, and resorting to name-calling. People have to understand that some characters are just not likable people, and you can argue to a certain extent that Egwene is just not an objectively well written character.
We disagree on some things, and that's ok. We both enjoy this series and that's what really matters. I'm still gonna share my opinion, not hate but opinion. (Haters need to knock that shit off. Bad Form!) Egwene clearly stated why she was hard on Nynaeve in the testing. It wasnt because she was jealous or felt threatened. She clearly stated it was because she could not be seen to be granting favors. I really do feel like your animosity for her clouds your ability to see what she's doing. She became a politician. A leader. An Amrlyn in truth not just title. Of all but of none. She literally leads the most powerful and long lasting institutions of this Age, at 18 years old. idk what people wanted, her to be handing out flowers and kissing Rand's boots? That wouldnt be true to her character or the overall story. She has to play politics because she's planning on leading whats left of the world when Rand is done. She knows he's not likely to survive to see the next age. She has to plan ahead as well as plan for battle. It's an insane amount of responsibility for any one person, let alone a teenager. You love that Nyn showed that she would give up everything to be Aes Sedai, but can't understand that Egwene is doing the same? Giving up connections to old friends and her old life, in order to serve as the Amrlyn for The Last Battle? You do see what I'm getting at here, right?
What I love about these books is that no one character is totally likable. They all have their flaws. Some of us get hung up on those flaws and start to hate a character. Some overlook those flaws and idolize characters. That's what I feel about Faile and ESPECIALLY Mat. They're flawed but their actions make sense from their perspective. Doesn't make them right, just makes sense. We dont like Gawyn because of his idiocy in The Last Battle. I get that he's an amazing swordsman. I just don't like his actions in the Last Battle, lol.
I'm not surprised you hate Egwene. I am disappointed, but I have to remind myself how I felt on MY first read through. And how much of my perspective changed with a re-read. I totally get why you're not going to re read. it's a huge series. It does make me a little sad, though. I didn't like her at all my first time through. When you re read, and really have time to care about the movements of the world and the set up for the next age, you understand WHY Egwene is right to be concerned about things that seem ridiculous to you now. You're gearing to read the next plot point, but that character is gearing to lead all of humanity, and their leaders, into the next Age. She's so imperfect like all these characters are. Bur she is very, very, human.
Sorry I vanished for a few months. Life, and covid, ya know?
Thanks for speaking your mind! Everyone enjoys different things about each book! Doesn’t make it any less special! Loved being on this journey with you and enjoy your videos!! Please keep it up!
your journey with Nynaeve was very similar to mine. she's such a great character!
Incredible arc.
I pretty much agree with all the egwene stuff, there is like 2 parts in her story that i really enjoy. And nyneave is amazing, its really cool that you are seeing how amazing of a character she is. Most people on the first read through dont like her.
Absolutely love how candid you are in your reviews Mike.
Watching your videos is part of my decompression as I begin the next book of the series. It’s almost become a habit now, and even though I haven’t started Malazan yet and shall start it later this year, I know your channel is the one I’ll follow to decompress the story in my mind.
I haven't seen anyone else comment on it but Gawyn is like the fourth or fifth best sword fighter in the world. He's outdone by only his brother, a Forsaken, Rand, and Lan, I believe.
Tam maybe too. When he spars with Rand, Rand thinks that Tam is better than he ever was with both hands. I think that between The Forsaken, Rand, Lan, and Tam the separation is so small that its almost not worth mentioning. I think bouts between any of them could go either way based on small fight-specific things, like a rock that interrupts footwork, or the like. Rand and The Forsaken do probably have the edge due to the sensory enhancement of holding Saidin, and Rand has the enhancements of the Warder Bond on top of that, so maybe I'd slightly edge him on top due to those(with both hands of course.)
Yeah Egwane really does power trip hard and its completely insufferable. I think part of the problem is that the Amrylin is supposed to represent supreme maternal authority. The Amrylin's call their subordinates "child" for example. But with Rand and Perrin (and to a lesser extent Mat earlier on in the series) she's done nothing to or for them to earn that kind of deference, and she refuses to acknowledge their own rise in station in the same amount of time. Its very rude behavior and frankly a poor example of legitimate Authority. Especially as an adult man, there is no way I'm going to entertain that kind of attitude from anyone who hasn't earned it from me personally, let alone a girl I grew up with and two years prior was just a girl from a backwater village. So I'm with you dude.
The interesting thing is when she's exercising her authority over other Aes Sedai I'm more on her side cause she's earned it with them because of what she does and goes through for the tower. Although I feel like she treated Gawyn terribly, if I was that dude I would never have gone back to the tower, I mean her power tripping was over the top. I'd have just been, "well, have fun going it alone darling, cause I'm out."
The other thing that I have a problem with through out the whole series is Aes Sedai authority in general. Are they voted into power? No. Do they serve the public in something that only they can do? Not really. So how is their authority derived? They can channel and others cannot. So really their authority is derived from the threat of violence with the one power or other repercussions. It's not ever been something I could get behind. Because they're basically just bullies as Tam points out in this book about Cadsuane (I believe) It's one of the reasons I've always gotten such a kick out of the Emmonds Field boys defying them.
Nailed on all points. Especially when Gawyn should have said: "Bye Felicia"
Nice. Well said
I despise the shit she put gawyn through, totally unnecessary
@@robertlester641 Felicia? I don't get the reference.
@@Stratocaster893 What Gawyn should have said to Egwene when he was summoned back to the Tower
I like your review and could't agree more about Nynaeve. To preface this next part, I don't really like Egwene, in fact I could honestly say I dislike her. With that said, I think you're letting your dislike of her cloud your judgement of some of her actions. For one, I don't recall her being the one who made Nynaeve's test more difficult, I thought someone else was responsible for that which was mentioned, but someone can correct me if I'm wrong there.
Egwene took on the role of Amyrlin completely, and while I can find many faults in her personality and treatment of others, she does what she sees as necessary, which is something you could say of a lot of the characters in the series, including many of the best ones. I would dislike her more if she was disingenuous, but she truly believes that, and for the most part, she gets it done. Her character arc gave her the mental fortitude to withstand any punishment and as such I disagree it was a Mary Sue moment for her in the dream world with Mesaana. The power of belief is what is strongest there, and Egwene has totally valid story reasons for having developed a very powerful will, not to mention her extensive time in Tel'aran'rhiod. Perrin's arc in this book backs that up. I say this again as someone who doesn't like Egwene: Give her more of a chance, you're being kinda harsh on her for stuff other characters also do.
Egwene was one of the few sisters that did make the test harder, although not as twisted as the others.
What nyneave does is almost only to help others even though she’s a grump. Like Mat, she may grumble a bit, but she’s about her people.
Keep doing you Mike. I laughed out loud when you said these two characters deserved each other. Could agree more
Egwene isn't my favorite character. Didn't she have trollocs raping Nynaeve in the dream world at one point? I can understand how some folks really like Egwene but Nynaeve is so much more genuine and relatable for me personally. I don't think people should get upset at something so subjective as whether you believe or relate with a character.
Nynaeve was my least favorite character at one point and I love the disovery I had with who she is and the progression as a character she had.
I can’t stand Egwene BUT the fight with the Black Ajah and Mesaana was fought in the World of Dreams (that’s why the stoke dream ter’angreal so long ago). So your will is extremely important in manipulating that realm. Egwene is a natural dream walker and exceedingly stubborn, so I could see her out matching Mesaana in this one case.
Best part was Perrin saying “it’s just a weave”. Loved her reaction. More happens with Perrin in AMoL.
Previous books have pointed out that as good a Gawyn is with a sword, Galad is almost always able to beat him. And it is never outright said, but I have always felt that Lan is truly the best.
Gawyn and galad are both portrayed as the best swordsmen but Mat beat both of them. Mat is the best fighter in the series for some reason.
If you read shortly after that part there’s a sence of were a warder tells everyone story of how a villager beat a warder with a quarter staff. And Matt dose State his father trained him in the quarter staff. Matt is skilled but honestly in what he excels is battle tactics. Rand was a blade master able to beat multiple opponents until he lost his hand.
If you ask me perrien is the more skilled in combat.Matt is the better general, rand focus more with the power, Perrien has fought in the battle of the two rivers,Malden, the white cloak ambush,dumis wells,the last battle and he’s always been in the front lines one way or the other
Hey Mike! I wanted to thank you for your channel and WoT reviews. I agree with your feelings about Egwene, Elayne, and pretty much all your character assessments so far. I am so excited for your Memory of Light review.
How everything is tied together in these last few books made this my favorite fantasy story. I was really worried that the pay off of getting through all of these massive books was not going to be worth it. However, once Rand went into zen mode and started reconciling with his father and friends in this book I knew that this story was definitely worth the time. Good luck on your first read through of Memory of Light because I literally cried tears of sadness and joy my first time through.
I finished the series about a year ago. I read the first 5 books 10 years ago when I was still in high school. I gave up on reading the series back then because of how slowly the main story was progressing and not having the time to sit and read that much. That being said I went on to become a draftsman so I draw blueprints and 3D model on a computer for a living. I discovered audible about 2 years ago and tried listening to audio books while I worked and fell in love with them. Especially WoT, Michael Kramer and Kate Reading are the best narrators. This allowed me to "skim" or kinda listen during the slow/boring Elayne, Egwene, Morgaise, and other side characters or moments that weren't critical to the main story. I was able to listen to all 14 books in a 4 to 6 month time frame (each book is about 30 to 40 hours of recording) which made it feel like one really long movie in my head. Which is why this series is my favorite now because I had no problems remembering characters or moments, everything was always fresh in my head. This story changed my life so I highly recommend to anyone having trouble finding the time to sit down and read these 14 huge tomes to try the audio books. I would have missed out on this wonderful story if I never gave audio books a chance.
Sorry for how long my comment is but I wanted to let you know that even though you are not listening to the audio books and that we experience this story from two different mediums that I love your reviews because your thoughts are very like mine even after my first read through a year ago. I do not have many real life friends that are into high fantasy so I really cherish your channel and community.
This is mostly what I have read/listened to in the last couple years: The Wheel of Time (except for New Spring and the companion book), the first Mistborn trilogy, the 3 Stormlight Archive books, all 5 Lightbringer books, all 15 Dresden Files books, The Rage of Dragons, Dune, Dune Messiah, Leviathan Wakes, the First Law trilogy, A Little Hatred, and Best Served Cold.
I am currently working on: The Heroes and a re-read of The Hobbit following with the 3 LotR books.
I plan on reading/on my wish list: The other 4 Dune books by F. Herbert, The Expanse books, Red Country, Kings of the Wyld, and Red Rising (thanks to your WYSR). Maybe Malazan and Powdermage eventually.
Thank you for reading this and keep up the good work!
I am excited, and while it does premiere while i'm asleep, I can handle that because it means that i can watch it before i go to work and I can start my day off right :)
I always recommend these videos with a cup of coffee.
I never really comment on CZcams but I have to do it. I really love your reviews and I am doing my first reread as you are reading. And I mostly agree with all of what you have been saying about the characters and especially agree on your opinion about Egwene. She, Gawyn and Elayne are my least favorite characters in the whole series. And I think what annoys me most about Egwene is that she always sees and assumes the worst about a person.. Keep up the great work and stay healthy! And looking forward to your Memory of Light review 😊
I've said it a few times, I'm not an Egwene fan either. Book two is where she starts to grate on me. Deciding that she's the arbiter of Rand's love life. Her cat-fighting with Nynaeve in book 3. The way she can't handle Rand getting more attention than her in book 4. her knocking Nynaeve down a peg in book 5 but lying through her teeth while trying to claim the moral highground over Nynaeve. Uggh. Whether she's a Mary Sue or not, I can't (or won't) say.... but she's still one of the shittiest people in the series.
Egwene's best moment in the series was when she got that whoopin from the Wise Ones for lying
Mark Linton That scene between her and Nynaeve marked the moment for me where she went from a character I generally liked but sometimes found annoying, to someone I could not root for at all. I'm sorry, but Nynaeve was her teacher, her master for years, the disrespect Egwene showed her crossed a very important line, and she got worse from there.
I've had the same switch with naenaeve... ever since her block disappeared
The important thing about the Amyrlin (she who's name shall not be mentioned) and Rand in this book, is Rand knows her personality as well as anyone. He does what he does because he knows precisely what her reaction will be and how she will proceed. This is intentional on his part in getting ready for the Last Battle. Good review, and am so glad you are so close to the ending and getting your thoughts.
Man, I would be here for you just reading snippets of the book over that intro music. So epic!
I can't wait for this story to be on TV!!!
Great review! You have right to dislike and like any character you want. It's your review. It's really great to see your journey in Wheel of Time. Never say never, who knows maybe you can't keep yourself away from rereding ;)
Egwene....theres a saying that power corrupts. I do believe that is what happened to Egwene, she just wanted to be the best, the one with most power. When she made Nynaeve's testing so much harder, I think she also proved that she is a bad leader and not suited to be in power. Also I always thought that the forsaken got it wrong (of course what did they get right? :D ) when they tried to get Rand, Mat and Perrin to turn to dark one, they should have gone after Egwene. No I don't think she was a dark friend, but out of 5 people who came from two Rivers , she would have been easiest to turn in my opinion.
I read it as naneve’s trial being difficult because the other women participating had contempt for her for how she did things and how much power she could wield. The amirlyn added something to one of the sequences iirc, but the rest was petty aes sedai shenanigans.
Side note: my daughter likes egwene solely because the name is similar to hers.
I don’t like Egwene much anymore either at this point. When she tried to tie up Perrin I was so mad. She’s become extremely self important. Thanks for sticking to your opinion, you’re not alone in it!
I literally just watched your reviews from book 0 to book 14 in 1 sitting and you gave me a really good perspective on some things and i enjoyed your reviews a lot. A fresh set of eyes, outside my usual content creaters was really refreshing, so thank you very much for the experience!
Coming back to this video since - damn dude! - you shrugged off both the clensing of Saidin and God level of power Rand like it was basically nothing! You are not a man easily impressed it seems! I don't think i have 4 comments in total in the (most likely) thousands and thousands of videos i've watched on this platform, but i just had to say the above! :)
Love your work, you got my sub, just from this list. Can't wait to explore the remainder of your channel.
I'm one of those who like Egwene as a character, not sure why do many people are butt-hurt about your opinion since its actually a super common one. Love your perspective, glad you aren't conforming to others. Also, I think once you finish the series you will find more people like-minded on this topic on the subreddit and such.
Egwene breaking the collar happened while in the world of dreams, same thing with how nynaeve willed a collar onto moghedien in a previous book. World of dreams is controlled by believing something is true with all your will, and mesaana doesn't know enough about dreamwalking to stop that in a way. Like Perrin said to her, "it's just a weave" when he stopped her channeling from affecting him in the world of dreams
Perrin also blocked Balefire in the dream
Gawyn's Rand hate is part of the problem. The worst of it happens at Tarmon Gaidon. While I like Egwene I didn't until rereads, you are forgiven for the hate. Honestly others hate her too and I'm okay with that.
Rands character arc in this series is pretty much the only thing that kept me continuing on .. just had to see how it turned out for him and I was not disappointed
Completely agree with you Mike about the Amyrlin. She is totally annoying. Reread the books two to three times, and she is more annoying every time...
Definitely agree with your comment about Sanderson swapping perspectives more, felt like he managed the cast a bit better, kept things moving.
sad to hear that the comments got nasty, Egwene is a tough one to enjoy sometimes and you're clearly allowed to have your opinion. You may have missed a tiny detail here or there but I have a very hard time disagreeing with you. Amazing review as always, keep up the great work Mike!!
Just finished the series, I’m super excited to hear your opinions on everything. If your not too busy maybe live stream a discussion after you finish the series?
I know I'm late to the party with this one, but Egwene is a dreamer trained by the wise ones to dream walk, and she is against Meesana who is not nearly as strong in the world of dreams as lanfear or moghedian. Nynaeve did essentially the same thing as Egwene months in the timeline earlier to Moghedian by placing an a'dam on her with thought. I don't think this is too hard to believe that Egwene could take one off herself with thought. She also almost had a panic attack and only managed to get through because of being so confident in the world of dreams and forcing herself to focus on the identity of aes sedai, which she was not when she was leashed in the real world. I dunno man, I think she's earned it at least in the world of dreams. We had so many books detailing her training specifically in dreamwalking...
Egwene is my favorite character, but I can see where you're coming from.
I definitely see where you're coming from on Egwene. I think I like her better and dislike Gawyn more than you...but your perspective is certainly valid. Don't be discouraged by the gatekeeper types, please!
Don’t worry about the negativity. I appreciated your review! And I also have very mixed feelings on Egwene! Loved her in Gathering Storm. Couldn’t stand her in Towers of Midnight
It's been a while, but my take on Nynaeve's testing was more "She who must not be Named" 😜 is her friend, so she was harder on her so there was no doubt she earned it.
Hey I love these reviews and I hope that your channel grows much more in the future. Love the style , your wot reviews are great , keep it up
Thank you for the review! 😊😊
Two topics: Rand and Egwene.
Rand: RJ is on record saying this story is a retelling of the Arthurian Legend. In the Arthurian Legend, the Land lives and dies with King Arthur. Its not JUST the Dark One's touch that has destroyed the crops and food, but Rand's spiral into almost siding with the Dark One (by almost destroying the Pattern) accelerated it. Once he became his true self, the Land stopped decaying and started to revitalize, and he could again accelerate it with the Lost Song.
Egwene: Power-wise, she is one of the most inherently talented Dreamer to have ever lived (including the Age of Legends), and her inherent talent for Chanelling was about a Tier in a half below Nynaeve; however, it's explained that when she was collared way back in Book 2, she went through what is known as Forcing, which artificially upgrades a Channelers abilities with the One Power permanently, so she's probably half a Tier below Nynaeve (in terms of raw power). Their's only one female Channeler above Nynaeve, and it's that captured Damane, and I imagine she's above Nynaeve because of Forcing.
Personality wise, if you do a deep dive into Egwene's actions even from Book 1, she has ALWAYS been the worst. She's the only Two Rivers person to ever side against someone else from the Two Rivers, and she does it more often than not. I noticed you were shocked that Nynaeve stood up for Mat in the last book to Tuon, but it shouldn't have been too surprising considering Nynaeve's sense of loyalty is to the level where she has NEVER sided against one of her fellow villagers in favor of an "outsider."
Your opinions are still valid and good. We each develop feelings for the characters differently. I personally thing Rand, Min, and Nyneve are the best characters; and Egewne, Elaine, and Taim are my least favorite.
Been a while since I read the boots, but I ended up hating she who apparently shall not be named by this point aswell...
Love your intros man, epic as hell keep up the great work
I understand your dislike for Egwene. I've always thought that Jordan and Sanderson started to write her like this so that she'd have a conflict with Rand. Though why she'd need it 13 books in I'll never know.
Great video man. I really like the quotes you do in the beginning of every video.
Apples First is one of my favorite chapters in the series.
Spoiler maybe? For those who haven't read the books and see comments I'll just treat it like one:
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Kinda subtle but the farmer is the same one all the way back from the first book who gave Rand and Mat a ride when they were trying to get to Caemlyn
Hey Mike! In the scene where Rand visits the white tower I remember there being some mention or inference to the true power. Since he is shielded, he could still overwhelm any channeler there. Kind of like how he got out of the collar with the true power.
Lolol, I loved that line Mike, “I think these are 2 annoying people and they belong together”. Best argument for their relationship ever! Lol 😂
Another fun review Mike. I've mentioned to you before that I also dislike Egwene and that leads into a worry I have for the show. Rafe has said she is his favorite. Anyway, when her and Rand met I believe that Rand, knowing her as he does, manipulated her into how she reacts. I can't remember if what she does in mentioned in this book or the next so I'll stop here.
I know you've finished the series by now, but it was nice to see that you had a similar impression of Gawyn's skill to the impression I had at this point.
Great review as always. 🤘🏻
Oh boy, wait and see, wait and see; awesome swordfights are coming
Can't wait to read the 6(?) books in between and then watch this. Just had to drop in and comment for the CZcams algorithm ;)
You are definitely not alone in not liking Egwene. By this book, I was so done with her. While she was never one of my absolute favorites from the beginning, I really came to dislike her immensely. Also, Nynaeve is my favorite character too.
I didn't love Egwene until i finished the series. Loving these reviews. Can't wait to hear you're thoughts on Memory of Light!
After you finish A Memory of Light I will tell you my Egwene theory.