How would league re-construction actually work?
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- čas přidán 12. 08. 2023
- Kieran is joined by data analyst Graeme Taylor, They discuss:
- How many teams should be in each division?
- Do we keep the split?
- Which European leagues have got 14 or 16 teams - and how do they make it work?
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I am Welsh but love following Scottish football. I also follow the Welsh league system and i think that needs a shake up too. Trouble is our best sides play in England.
I have never understood why there are so many leagues of 10 teams, I would like to see an expansion.
Thanks for following!
Surely in the 16 team option and the three way split, the team that finishes top of the middle tier should go into a play off with the team that finishes bottom of the top tier? Otherwise its guaranteed that a team that finishes 6-11 gets a European spot ahead of a team that finished 5th? If 5th and 6th were well ahead of the pack but well behind the top 4, coming into the last few games before the split, there would be an incentive to throw a game or games to make sure you were in the middle tier to grab the European spot.
Yeah good point and i agree.
I like the Latin American model of 2 tournaments, apertura and clausura.
In Mexico they have 18 teams, they play each other once and then top 4 have a play-off for the championship. This repeats in second half of season with reverse home and away fixtures
This sounds interesting. Will need to do some more investigation into South America...
First time stumbling across your channel. Enjoying this one so far
🤗
How about 4 leagues of 12 - yes, it is a cunning plan to get Clydebank and Third Lanark back into the league.
I'm a romantic for Third Lanark too.
I’ve been talking about this for about the last 20 years. Great stuff from Graham, his second proposal seemed closer to what I had thought about although I had thought 18 teams with only two leagues and I love the “playoffs” but I’ve never been convinced by the split.
Scottish football is in danger of falling so far behind we will never get it back and TV revenue and overall PR is just nonexistent, league setup has to be a priority and this nonsense of one club being able to scupper these kind of proposals is utterly farcical.
Thanks for watching and commenting!!
Cheers from Germany! I'd prefer a 14-14-14 system. I don't know if I would split the leagues into two groups of 7, just because you'd have one team with a bye on the last day of the season.
A SPL with 16, 18 or 20 teams would water down the level of competition. There'd be a good chance that both Celtic and Rangers would have a few wins with 10 or more goals.
Sounds good!
Derby cups to start the regular season (Glasgow Cup, Edinburgh Cup, Highland Cup, Dundee Cup etc)
Good idea!
I’d increase the SPFL from 42 clubs to 48 clubs & reconstruct to either a 16-16-16 setup or a 18-16-14 setup. Everyone plays each other twice home and away, no split! Would make the leagues more competitive & more valuable also less repetitive
Good suggestions!
@@ImprovingScottishFootball i think that 16-14-14 setup might work if everyone plays each other twice, no split
@@ImprovingScottishFootball reconstruct the league so there's no split cause the split is boring & saw teams in the bottom 6 have more points than someone in the top 6.
Also on the 20/20 option you are showing two up and 3 down?
I’d love to see a title win from a team other than the Glasgow two
100%
that wont be anyone
@@jamiefairlie4837 you never know tbh I mean Leicester won the epl a few years ago and no one thought that was possible ?
A playoff for a European place would be interesting as well, as well as one or two relegation playoff games
100%
Ok so what about a minimum amount of Scottish raised players that have to feature in every game. The reason is so that the richest two clubs don't just buy in the best players. They can still use who they want in Europe but benefit 1) it will even the playing field within the top Scottish League. 2) it will give more Scottish raised players more game time and help the National Team.
100%
If there were only 2 old firm league games a season they would become more desirable for the broadcasters to bid for so would the drop off in money be that great? I would also redistribute the position place money more evenly to make up for the lost revenues from this for the smaller clubs as the top two get Champions League/Europa League money for finishing 1/2. Any team that currently finishes bottom 6 at the moment isn't guaranteed 2 home games against them anyway so it shouldn't be relied upon.
It needs to be 18/20 top league to facilitate one Home and Away game only. Playing the same teams potentially 6 times a year is a terrible set up and should be stopped, I have spoken to many people on this and not one person has said they like the current set up.
An interesting stat here is if you play the old firm 4 times a season and lose all of those games (Which isn't uncommon even for the other top six teams) then you are basically starting the season 24 Points behind.
In the past 5 years the average points between 3rd and 2nd is 21.8 and the average points between 3rd and 1st is 33.4 and in one of those seasons the actual difference was 11 points 3rd to 2nd and 20 points 3rd to 1st . In that scenario there would potentially be a 12 Point difference to the team in 3rd so they could have finished 2nd if there were not 8 games against the Old Firm a season!
Now this is all hypothetical of course but your question on how to improve the league is directly linked to how competitive the league is and how the fans perceive their chances for the upcoming season. I am sure you have heard many fans outside the Old Firm stating that they are playing for third on the opening day of the season. This unfortunately is the reality of every team in the Scottish Premiership (Outside the Old Firm) due to the number of time each team has to play them. And no doubt people will say well just play better then, the reality of this is that the Old Firm have been receiving European money for so long which dwarfs any TV or prize money in the Scottish game that it makes it almost impossible to compete over 8 games with them.
The closest effort in doing this was the Vladimir Romanov Era at Hearts where they pushed but that was a bit of a debacle behind the scenes. It did prove one thing however, if you throw money at the problem it can be done but it is not in the best interest of any Scottish team to do this for a prolonged period as was seen at Hearts. And despite all of that Celtic still won the league and got straight to the Champions League Group Stages with the associated cash for doing so which dwarfed any money spent at Hearts anyway!.
By reducing the number of times playing each other to twice may not change the result in the end but it would be much closer. There are numerous seasons where this might have resulted in a different winner or second place.
So back to the original question on how to improve the league depends on who you are doing it for, the old firm or the rest of the teams?
If it is for the Old Firm then continue to play 4 times each and you will get the same results but in a different format
If it is for all the other sides the play each other twice in an 18/20 league and the results will most likely be the same but it will potentially be much closer and more exciting for all the other fans with at least a small bit of hope that a shock can occur because that is a pipe dream playing 8 times against the Old Firm.
Also there are no reserve leagues and no plans to create them! I don't disagree about the B Teams comment though.
Thanks for commenting John. Some good thoughts in here!
What do you think of what the Belgians do? They play there normal season, home and away once.
Then after the regular season, they halve everyones points totals, so if you fonished after 30 games with 64 points, you start the play-offs wth 32 points.
It removes any huge points gap and for Scotland would make the title run in way closer and more exciting because 3 or 4 clubs would be mathematically in with a shot at title.
I think we could do that in a 16 team league.
Play 30 games, split into a top 4, mid 6 and bottom 6. It would create a lot of drama like it does in Belgium and also bring in more money and interest.
Just a thought.
Personally 20 teams in the premier is best, more variety of games and more chance of the smaller teams having something to play for.
Clubs like Ayr, Raith, Dunfermline, Falkirk, ict, Morton, Patrick, Dundee utd potentially Airdrie are well supported clubs and would bring something to the league.
The divisions bellow that's where I'm not too sure how it would work
Cheers Kris!
I think the current system is good as it suits Scottish stratified sizes of clubs, 2 4 6 7 5 50 is a fair measure of the size of clubs. 2 giant, 4 big, etc. i would maybe up the championship by 2, and split it. Also it would be good to have b teams in the lowland league. I am not sure about more relegations from the 4th tier, as I think it's safer to have established safe clubs in the lower part of the league, as yes there could be a east Kilbride, which would be a plus, but it could just just jettiison some old established teams. And maybe lessen it's prestige. plus I think teams may want to know they have a strong chance if being a league club in the future, if they already are. plus it makes league status more prized.; b teams are good as it gives the youths experience.
Thanks for watching and commenting. Some good thoughts here!
People keep speaking about this over and over, it has been going on for decades now. But it is nowhere near our main issue, the main issue is the standard. We can set the league up any way we want, but so long as we have a majority of teams that use the tactics of "kick everyone you see, and see how it goes" we will go nowhere. We need a decent youth set-up with decent coaches and management. Players are not taught skill, ability, and vision. The vast majority of our players have little to no game vision, and when you see the people coaching and managing you can see why. While the rest of Europe was evolving and developing, Scotland was still doing the same crap over and over. Football has passed us by and we are still in the dark ages, a big change is needed at all levels.
Agree we need to massively up the standard. You might enjoy this episode on the subject. czcams.com/video/z0nUSb8NQzo/video.htmlsi=WhsTHbn0av4rYvme
18-team league is perfect. We keep talking about money as if we are ever in a million years going to get to a stage where we can compete with alot of other leagues by keeping teams out for the sake of another old firm. The truth is we have 18 good clubs, the more competitive the league is the better the product on the park gets, attendances would go up and there would be more variety. 16 team league is the more realistic option I admit but 3 groups in a split is one of the worst ideas ive ever heard. would rather just 2 groups in the split, 37 games may look strange but its still essentially the same. home and away the league then a third game with half the league. The desire for the games to be an even number isnt worth anything
Partick Thistle - Dunfermline - Dundee Utd should have access to top league.
Teams like Falkirk - Airdrie - Morton etc should have chance of going up as well.
Would love to see all these teams back in the top flight
We had all that before I'm 64 and remember when Scotland inly had the Two Leagues Division 1 and 2 that was changed as it left too many teams in the middle with nothing to play for it was then changed to Four Leagues of 10 and that was seen as being to pressurised and got changed to what we have now and now we see that, that isn't working either. In my view filling our top League with even more teams who struggle to get 5,000 through the gate would in fact be detrimental.
Two divisions. A Premier League of 18 teams, a 1st Division of 16 teams. Beneath that we have a Highland/Northern League and a Lowland/Southern League.
Premier Division - play eachother twice. 3 relegated.
1st Division - play eachother twice. 3 promoted, 2 relegated.
Northern/Southern Leagues - play eachother twice. Top 2 from each league enter play off, round robin. Top 2 gain promotion.
Good suggestions
With regard to the voting structure, we had the opportunity to change it when Rangers went through their troubles, back in 2012. Rangers weren't part of the top league so a vote was tabled to make changes to a 9-3 voting system. Inexplicably, Aberdeen joined forces with Celtic in blocking the path to change. To this day, no-one quite knows why Stuart Milne did what he did 😒
Aberdeen is just the wee Celtic with the red strip, so I would say that's why they joined up. Doncaster and Lawell from Celtic did the TV deal, I don't know what team you support but only 1 club seemed to get a decent deal from it. Nobody seems to see that the deal ensured no other club could do anything of purpose as they had no real money coming in, but 1 club at that time had some money and could do with the temporary loss. Places like Denmark and Poland have a TV deal that blows the Scottish deal out the water, but again - who profits by the clubs getting paid peanuts.
@@sobo5476 What absolute garbage! St Mirren are the wee Celtic just as Kilmarnock are the wee Sevco.
@@paulwilson2651 Aberdeen are the Wee Scum. Aberdeen have took something like 3 points from a possible 99 from them, you can see the majority of the Aberdeen team don't even try, Johnny Hayes is probably the worse for it.
@@sobo5476 It took Hearts 14 years to win at Parkhead.
@@paulwilson2651 aberdeen v celtic soon, just watch aberdeen lose at least 6 goals.
Never happening but I'd like to see an 18 team premier, play each other twice. Three relegated. Playoffs for promotion only. Possibly a playoff for the last euro spot. Simple. No splits. 34 games.
Problems would be TV would want four OF games, and clubs that depend on revenue from away support wouldn't go for it.
There would be an overall loss of revenue from playing two less home games. Some small/part time teams would get promoted and may struggle. Risk of unattractive mid table fixtures/malaise, bigger teams hammering small ones. Less 'big' games overall.
The reason it was binned in the 70s was too many teams mid table had nothing at stake but we have more euro spots now to play for and three points for a win.
But there is no perfect solution. I think it would be worth a try in the modern era.
With only four matches v Rangers and Celtic rather than eight the others could potentially close the gap. Greater variety. An emphasis on and an opportunity for teams being able to improve, raising the overall standard by competing in the top division.
If the folk in charge would actually get a decent TV deal and promote the game better that would help a lot. Only having two OF games plus two Edinburgh derbies, two Dundee derbies it would mark them as major occasions. There could be more derby games such as Motherwell Airdrie, St Mirren Morton, Kille Ayr.
I'd also bring back replays in the Scottish cup.
It'll never happen but I don't like the concept of splitting the league at all. I would rather go back to 10x4 36 games.
Oh and bring back the Tennants Sixes while we're at it 😂
Yes to Tennants sixes!!! Plus some good points here. Thanks for contributing!
I don't see any issue with the 14/14/14 (7/7) split. 1 change though, postponing 1 game on matchday 25/26 would allow all clubs to play on the last day of the season. Obviously it would need to be match where both teams were on either side of the split and mathematically couldn't cross the split
I think we should go with only 2 Old Firm games in the League.
There's a high chance they'll meet in the Scottish Cup or League Cup.
I'd introduce a Spanish style Super Cup of 4 teams.
1️⃣ 1st in the League
2️⃣ 2nd in the League
3️⃣ Scottish Cup Winner (or next best)
4️⃣ League Cup Winner (or next best)
SF1 = 1️⃣ Vs 4️⃣
SF2 = 2️⃣ Vs 3️⃣
Final = SF1 Vs SF2
Interesting! Thanks for sharing.
@@ImprovingScottishFootball there's actually little chance of a Celtic vs rangers game in the Cup given how things are currently "set up".
There is no point in changing the league set up until the domination of the Ugly Sisters is tackled and diminished.
14 team top league - play each other home and away - then split after those 26 games - split in to a top 6 and a bottom 8 - play each other home and away again - top 6 will have a total of 36 games - bottom 8 will play 40. So much going for this it would take too long in a CZcams comments section to explain. Its all but a perfect solution.
I like it!
I think the mls structure would work well for Scottish football especially the playoffs
I'm only upto the first break, but some ideas so far have been good. But deep down I'm against the split. If it stays then an incentive yes, but Europe no. Maybe later qualification round for both cups. Will come back after I've seen more.
Option 2 is a no from me. Team in 5th could end up miles behind 4th and start trying to fix matches to finish in mid teir for Europe. As for the ugly sister matches we need to get over it to improve scottish without playing them or seeing them play each other 4 times a season. Create a charity shield style comp if need be. Will be them most of the time anyways.
Let's see what else you've got.
P.S do we really need to play 38 games a season. It's packed enough.
I should have watched more with the charity shield comment.
18-18-then a combination of the relegated and the top teams from high/low. League of 10. 2 up 2 down.
Thanks for watching 👍
First things first a move to summer football that's the first change then reconstruction.
How about a Scottish League Three, made up of the top 5 teams from the Highland League and the top 5 of the Lowland League (no B teams), with automatic promotion and relegation to/from the remnants of the Highland and Lowland Leagues.
Good idea!
@@ImprovingScottishFootball I may be an Englishman, but I hope you didn't mind me having a say. I also follow your nation's football with a keen interest.
Very Best Wishes to you.
Cheers!
I prefer either a 16 or 18 team league, 14 is too small IMO
I think 16 is my favourite. 18 might be a bit too radical for them to vote through.
The first one with 16 teams so 30 after playing each team 2 times so a 7 game split before each team being given a random game against a team in the other split league and the other 3 divisions are set up as the Scottish prem is now but 2 relegated from prem plus playoff
Thanks for commenting!
How about 18 clubs in spl
Championship 12 clubs
League 1 12 clubs
Dissolve League 2 altogether
Think this would create more competition for smaller clubs
No post splits in spl .
I like it!
For me, there are three massive issues with the Scottish league system as I see it.
1. There's a professional league system where less than half the teams are professional.
2. In a perverse bid to preserve a historical bias, the budding non-league pyramid is completely unrepresentative.
3. There's not a whole heap of difference between bottom-end league teams and the leagues below.
To fix these, I'd propose:
1. Reducing the number of teams in the SPFL to 24, both operating on the SPL model of triple-round robin and then a split. I don't like it but I don't think going to 14 fixes the issue, I just think it lowers the overall standard of the divisions. 16 even moreso.
The remaining SPFL teams would be at the top of a semi-professional pyramid and I would propose two parallel divisions of either 10 or 12, acting as a buffer and run similarly to Spain's Primera Federacion divisions.
2. Increasing the number of divisions at the fifth level from 2 to 4. Putting junior clubs, who were actually better than many senior equivalents, at a lower level and creating this false Highland-Lowland equivalency means that 72% of the population feeds into one division while 18% feeds into the other half.
So, keep the Highland League sort of how it is, maybe cap all the leagues at this level to 16, split the Lowland League in three and promote from below. Make one-time-only offers to major clubs in that footprint to have their U21 teams at that level, else they have to start at the very bottom.
3. So, we'd go from 12-10-10-10 to 12-12-2x10-4x16. If teams are good, they'll be able to climb quickly and we'd see how many of these SPFL clubs justified their historical advantage.
Thanks Michael - some great thoughts in here.
Some good thoughts. Thanks for commenting :-)
Maybe it should be 9-3 voting instead of 11-1
definitely!
One issue with the 14-14-14 scenario is that a split after 26 games can be looked on as a bit too early and might be a tad unfair to the teams in 8th/9th place at that point.
With re: to an incentive for the bottom half teams, I agree with the the concept of a playoff with a team from the top half. Just awarding a Euro spot to the winner of the bottom half, and ignoring teams above, just doesn't sit right with me.
I agree with Graeme, that 16 teams would be the ideal setup for the top flight. But I would get rid of split altogether. Play each other twice, so thirty league games - but rearrange league cup so there are no "byes" for European teams. I just can't bear the thought of continuing with four games against the same opponents - especially you know who. It's just boring.
I do agree with the comment about mid-table teams ... there is too much fear in Scottish football, as clubs are too scared to introduce young talent. When clubs are safe from relegation, they are free to play youngsters. It a sad indictment of our game that so many young players have to go down south to get a game. Getting more Scottish youngsters playing in our league can only be good for the national team.
IF a three-way split is to work, there would have to be a playoff, where the winner of the middle six PLAYS-OFF with bottom of the top five. This might negate the possiblity of teams throwing matches before the split.
NB. I don't know what you would do with regards to the Scottish cup. If one of the Old Firm doesn't win the cup then the winner of the cup currently gets the Europa league spot. THAT would put a spanner in the works.
NB2. As suggested on View From the Terrace last night, maybe the SPFL should think about awarding a trophy for finishing third 😏
Good points here. Thanks for contributing!
The real Problem with Scottish Football is there are too many teams most of which have few Supporters Take Livingston, Hamilton and Ross County they barely get anyone through the gates. Adding more low supported Teams isn't going to help.
Scottish Football should copy what Rugby League in England do a super eight. Have a top League of 8 clubs Celtic, The Rangers, Hearts, Hibs, Aberdeen, Dundee United Dundee and either Kilmarnock or Motherwell whoever has the bigger attendances they play each other home and away then split based on league position the top 4 play for the Title and the bottom 4 play to see who gets relegated.
I also propose 3 points for a win 2 for a score draw and 1 point for a no score draw.
Interesting. Haven't really considered this idea before! thanks for commenting.
FALKIRK
@@TheUniversalGamer87 What about them? Do they get 10,000 plus No. So not an asset to the top flight. I', ready to be proven wrong.
So the season lasts a maximum of 20 games? That's going with the idea that after the 'split' the 4 teams play home and away.
You then have how many being relegated? 1? 2? 1 or 2 then gain promotion from the 'Championship', that could then mean Arbroath and Inverness, for example, so you'd still end up with teams with only a few fans in the top flight. All it then takes is for those teams to get results in the split scenario, which could then result in 2 of the bigger teams going down, and possibly the likes of Livingston and St Johnstone gaining promotion. So you now have half your 'super eight'(Arbroath, Inverness, Livi, St Johnstone) with average crowds of say 4,000.
You couldn't have a stipulation that the only teams who could be promoted to this 'super eight' must have average crowds of say 8,000, or the potential to have crowds of 8,000-10,000, as you're then taking all fairness out of the game. You could end up with the likes of Dundee Utd finishing 4th in the Championship, but being promoted because they have larger average crowds than the 3 teams who finished above them.
This super eight would only work for one season.
@@scottw.3258 Your entitled to your view so thanks for your input. Anything has got to be better than what we have. Supporters will eventually get sick of it always being a Two Horse race.
Why not just had 2 division in SPFL
Scottish Premiership - 20 team
Scottish Championship - 22 team
No more split,no more play off relegation. Just make a play off for 3th,4th,5th,6th place in championship.The Celtic or rangers winning streak might be end.
And Create Scottish Super Cup.
Why too difficult ?????
Thanks for commenting. Scottish top flight used to have 18 teams in the 1970's and it resulted in teams like Cowdenbeath and Arbroath playing in it. There's arguably not the strength in depth.
16, 14 and 14
16 play each other twice then split into 3 groups 6,6 and 4. Top 6 play to win plus the other 1 potentialy 2 europa and conference league place.
Middle 6 play for the final conference league place and maybe a buy into a later round of Scottish or league Cup. So 7th conference league and 8th get scottish cup or something .
Bottom 4 is plus top 2 from championship. All start with 0 points and bottom 2 teams get relegated to championship. 4th in the group plays a playoff against the top 6 on championship.
Championship 14. Each play each other twice. Top 2 play in the premiership group then split 6 and 6. Winner plays play off. Bottom 2 relegated and 3rd plays a play off against 3rd in league 1.
League one 14. Play each other twice split top 8 and bottom 6. Top 2 promoted 3 playoff. Bottom 6 plus Highland and lowland league winners make a bottom 8 play each other home and away bottom 2 get relegated.
Need bigger top league. Teams are too worried about relegation and don't play young scottish players. Bigger league allows teams more freedom to introduce young players which is only going to benefit the national team
100%
18-10-10-10
For sure better than what we have!
Only thing that sounds garbage...is european place fpr a team muxh lower and of a lower standard..means we lose coefficient points effectively..
Yep fair point!
Tinkering with the number of teams won’t improve the standard or increase game attendance. The latter would improve in a more competitive league where teams out with the OF can win the title. The paradox is the OF leaving would achieve this but also lead to a downturn in revenues and subsequently standards due to a reduced income for the league overall.
If it's less repetitive, i think it will increase attendance. Nobody wants to play Livingston 4 times a season.
Thanks for commenting :-)